2724 réponses à ce sujet

[randomcheeses]

Xilizhra wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

esper wrote...

I think what Xilzhra meant is that Sebastian's loaylty is not depending of the number of rival friendspoint gathered, which Anders/Fenrus/Merrill/aveline and Isabella is. 
He makes his decision regardless.  

But from her perspective, as a very pro Mage Hawke, doesn't the fact that Sebastian will:  

- advocate for Mage!Hawke to be Viscount, even before the endgame
- offer to marry a Mage!Hawke, and make her co-ruler of Starkhaven (I know Xilizhra isn't going to take this dialogue path, but it still exists)
- fight on the side of mages in the endgame, as long as Anders is eliminated
- leave, and not interfer with Hawke's mission, even if Anders isn't eliminated

count for something?  Sebastian obviously isn't prejudiced against mages, despite his upbringing and devotion to the Chantry.  Meanwhile, Fenris or Merrill are willing to allow the world to burn, if they don't get what they want in the endgame.  I'm not saying that they're bad characters for having a crisis point, but I don't understand why Sebastian's particular crisis is "worse" because it's not tied to loyalty.

I consider Merrill's turning on a templar Hawke to be a heroic and moving sacrifice, and Fenris' turning on a mage Hawke an unfortunate relic of his mental damage. But aside from that, I'm not actually annoyed at Sebastian. If this is a line he can't cross, I have no objection to him pissing off. I'm just not going to kill Anders to please him; it's not worth it.

Then why were you talking about it like it was an actual character flaw, or that by calling for Anders execution he crossed some sort of moral line (your exact words, if you forget were "sank to that level"). If you prefer Anders, or think he'll be more useful to the mage cause, that's fine. But just say so. 

Don't be passive-agressive and try to find flaws in Sebastian that aren't there so you can feel more justified in sparing Anders. (Seriously, the guy has a bucketful to choose from already, you don't need to invent more.)

Edit: Oh look! A hundred pages!



Courtesy of Aimo.

Modifié par randomcheeses, 04 novembre 2011 - 07:54 .

[Quething]

leggywillow wrote...
Well, my opinion as the gamer may change: Hawke still isn't going to forgive him for putting her in that position.

Actually Anders is the one who put you in that position. He fully intends for you to kill him, and the need for justice to be done would be there whether Sebastian is or not. Seb's not asking you to choose between him and Anders, he's actually asking for exactly the same thing Anders is.

I mean it's fair for a Hawke to believe otherwise, an Andersmancing Hawke in particular, but that's Hawke. It's fair for Hawkes to believe all kinds of things (though not some of the things the game seems to need them to, but that's neither here nor there).

As for why he expects Hawke to do it? Well, poor writing is my first go-to with pretty much all things DA2, and I share your sentiment that he's reluctant to do it himself, as well, but remember also that this is Hawke, and Anders is Hawke's companion. It seems very well understood by the whole party that if a decision is to be made about one of Hawke's friends, Hawke will be doing it. Is it Hawke's choice whether Isabela goes with the Arishok? Not really, no; the only civic authority in that room is Aveline. But she won't interfere either way, because that's Hawke's call. Is it Hawke's decision whether Varric keeps the shard or not? No more than it is any other friend of his, certianly not more than it is Varric's, but even he accepts Hawke's ruling, because it's Hawke's call. Are any of them other than Anders even going to conscience giving Fenris to Danarius? No, they're all appalled. But none of them are going to step in, because it's always Hawke's call.

Seb knows he doesn't get to kill Anders. Anders is Hawke's friend, and only Hawke is allowed to make decisions about the lives of Hawke's friends. All he can do is try to convince Hawke to make the right one.

Modifié par Quething, 04 novembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[leggywillow]

Quething wrote...
Actually Anders is the one who put you in that position. He fully intends for you to kill him, and the need for justice to be done would be there whether Sebastian is or not. Seb's not asking you to choose between him and Anders, he's actually asking for exactly the same thing Anders is.

I mean it's fair for a Hawke to believe otherwise, an Andersmancing Hawke in particular, but that's Hawke. It's fair for Hawkes to believe all kinds of things (though not some of the things the game seems to need them to, but that's neither here nor there).

As for why he expects Hawke to do it? Well, poor writing is my first go-to with pretty much all things DA2, and I share your sentiment that he's reluctant to do it himself, as well, but remember also that this is Hawke, and Anders is Hawke's companion. It seems very well understood by the whole party that if a decision is to be made about one of Hawke's friends, Hawke will be doing it. Is it Hawke's choice whether Isabela goes with the Arishok? Not really, no; the only civic authority in that room is Aveline. But she won't interfere either way, because that's Hawke's call. Is it Hawke's decision whether Varric keeps the shard or not? No more than it is any other friend of his, certianly not more than it is Varric's, but even he accepts Hawke's ruling, because it's Hawke's call. Are any of them other than Anders even going to conscience giving Fenris to Danarius? No, they're all appalled. But none of them are going to step in, because it's always Hawke's call.

Seb knows he doesn't get to kill Anders. Anders is Hawke's friend, and only Hawke is allowed to make decisions about the lives of Hawke's friends. All he can do is try to convince Hawke to make the right one.

The decision and the action are not necessarily the same things, though.  My opinion remains that if Sebastian wants Anders dead, he can do it himself.  It's really not asking that much.  And as for Sebastian somehow being respectful by leaving it in Hawke's hands, my solution reflected that, though it probably got lost in my TLDNR post.  I suggested that in that scene, Hawke's dialogue options could be the usual "Do not interfere Sebastian", killing Anders herself, or adding a "You do it".  The decision is ultimately left up to Hawke and the player, since you're right in your examples: Hawke and/or the player are the ones making the choice.  The action, however, can be left up to the companion in question, such as Fenris killing Hadriana/Danarius/Varania/slavers, Varric keeping the shard, etc.

[Quething]

I didn't mean to imply it was about respect. I don't think it's any particular respect for Hawke (that wouldn't make sense anyway, since Hawke doesn't actually have any unusual right to make those decisions beyond PC fiat). It's just, that's how things are in Kirkwall and Sebastian is operating in that frame.

That the player has no ability to tell Sebastian to do it himself is a problem, yes; I said myself about two pages ago that that option should have been in the game. But the player's inability to make Hawke say certain things doesn't reflect at all on Sebastian.

[ipgd]

sebastian vael prince of waffles

[upsettingshorts]

Quething wrote...

Seb knows he doesn't get to kill Anders. Anders is Hawke's friend, and only Hawke is allowed to make decisions about the lives of Hawke's friends. All he can do is try to convince Hawke to make the right one.

That's a convenient post-hoc rationalization that invents aspects of Sebastian's character as necessary instead of reflecting ones already in evidence throughout the narrative.

He was enraged and despondent that his friend and mentor was suddenly and violently murdered, but still couldn't muster up the required willpower to take a bold, decisive action. You know, like he's failed to do the entire game.

Refusing his demand to execute Anders is the only thing that actually motivates him to do anything, and that's no guarantee he'll be able to follow through on his threats.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 novembre 2011 - 09:32 .

[syllogi]

leggywillow wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Merrill and Fenris will attempt to kill Hawke if you side with the "wrong" faction at the end and don't have enough friendship/rivalry to keep them on your side.  Why is Sebastian's refusal to continue working with someone who just murdered his surrogate mother and spiritual mentor (not to mention any of the other innocent Chantry members who were just murdered, or anyone else on the street who was killed by the explosion) more inexcusable than Merrill outright attacking if you side with the Templars and haven't gotten her friendship/rivalry score up?

::leaps in::

As someone who very, very rarely still has Sebastian by the time you reach the Gallows, I can say that it boils down to Sebastian not being willing to do it himself.  I understand why he wants Anders dead, and if he was offering to take his bow and do it himself I'd probably be willing to let Anders die a lot more often.  To be fair, this could just be an oversight on Bioware's end and perhaps future DLC will change my mind.  I'm not going to get involved in a "should Anders die" debate, since that's beside the point for me.  As the gamer, I don't like how the Anders killing scene goes down since I personally play Hawkes who are at least friends with him and would show a little more emotion about sticking a knife in his back.  I end up role-playing a way around it even for my Hawkes who do think he deserves to die.

Basically, I don't appreciate Sebastian forcing Hawke to do it.  If it's truly something he felt strongly about (and who wouldn't?) then why doesn't he try to do it himself?  It would be a simple dialogue option that said "You do it, then."  He wouldn't do it unless you picked that option, obviously, to keep players from getting upset about it.  Bam.  That's it.  It's the same reason why Loghain very rarely survives in my Origins playthroughs: because Alistair is entirely willing to do it himself.  The way I RP, I tend to let the party members do what they want.  They're adults who make their own decisions, and for the most part I keep my PC from interfering.  Thus, even if my Warden was the type to give Loghain a chance, she often said "Well it you want him dead so badly, you do it and live with the consequences... oh.  You did it.  Okay, then, let's move on."

Basically, I just don't appreciate Hawke having to do it.  Some of my Hawkes wouldn't care, but it would be nice to see Sebastian take the damn initiative if it's something that's so important to him.  I certainly understand why he wants Anders dead.  That's why I resent him more for "standing up" for his beliefs here than other companions.  The other companions stand up to Hawke by doing something: they are willing to fight for it.  If Fenris wants someone dead (Hadriana, Danarius, Varania), he will do it himself.  He doesn't order Hawke to do it and then stomp off when she refuses to place more blood on her hands.  (Again, depends how you RP your Hawke.  Mine kill when people leave them no other choice.)

I also understand that Sebastian isn't really the type to be willing to execute a man who shows no signs of fighting back.  I could see him pull out his bow to attempt to execute Anders and then say "....I can't do this, crap."  Killing someone in battle who is flying at you with a sword is different than sticking a knife or arrow in the back of a man sitting quietly waiting for his death.  That's why I think if that's his excuse for not doing it himself, then getting furious at Hawke for not wanting to do it for the same reason is really ****ty.  Again, my opinion could change if future DLC addresses this point specifically, since I also understand that in the heat of the moment Seb may not be thinking rationally.  Well, my opinion as the gamer may change: Hawke still isn't going to forgive him for putting her in that position.  It kinda reminds me of Ned Stark and his refusal to use a headsman.  If you're going to condemn a man to death, you should be willing to carry out the act yourself.

I agree that it would be good to have that option, and I could see him not being able to do it, when his hand is forced, and still walking away from the party.  It's one of those things that we'll never really get to know, since he was DLC.

Sebastian's ultimatum doesn't really factor into whether any of my Hawkes kill Anders, but whether or not he dies, I don't hold it against Sebastian as a character, that he would feel that way, and say those things, in that moment.

Of course, on my very first playthrough, I was like "HAHA, you go on back to Starkhaven, Anders and I will be long gone.  SEE YA."  It was only after a second run that I noticed that he was really the only character who had an appropriately emotional reaction in that scene (the worst:  Isabela saying "How invigorating!" after Anders dies.  Wut???), other than Anders.  Even a Hawke who romanced Anders doesn't get to fully voice their personal reaction to seeing the Chantry go down.  So while I see his many character flaws, I don't hold them against him, but rather see them as making him a more interesting and complex character.

It could also be said that his reluctance to kill Anders himself is because of his respect and/or admiration for Hawke.  I'm more amazed that Meredith didn't cut him down on the spot, or even Orsino.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 04 novembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

It should not matter whether or not Sebastian was asking Hawke to kill Anders out of some respect (which I find highly unlikely, considering this is not the first time he's asked others to carry out his need for revenge). Would you ask someone else who might even be a disinterested third party to carry out your own personal revenge? This is why I wish the game had the option to tell Sebastian "I won't kill him, but I won't stand in YOUR way. Bloody your own hands this time. Unless there's some money involved this time too trololol"

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 04 novembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[Quething]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's a convenient post-hoc rationalization that invents aspects of Sebastian's character as necessary instead of reflecting ones already in evidence throughout the narrative.

It has nothing to do with Sebastian's character at all. Any more than it reflects Aveline's character that she'll let you sell Isabela out to the Arishok. Any more than it reflects Isabela's character that she'll handwave you giving Fenris to Denarius. It's a simple matter of game mechanics. You cannot hold it against Sebastian that he fails to do things on his own, and not hold it equally against every other character that none of them do either. You cannot hold it against Sebastian that he asks Hawke to do things for him that he should be capable of and may well have far more interest in, and not hold it equally against every other character for repeatedly doing the same. That is simply how DA2 - in fact, RPGs in general - function.

TeenZombie wrote...
It was only after a second run that I noticed that he was really the only character who had an appropriately emotional reaction in that scene (the worst: Isabela saying "How invigorating!" after Anders dies. Wut???), other than Anders.

Well, he's a bit overwrought, though. Or... poorly integrated, rather; it's nice that he actually reacts, but it really wasn't done well and ends up being distracting and awkward, the way the whole climactic moment just sort of... sits on hold for a moment for him to fall down and wail and then stand up and pray. I suspect that also impacts people's willingness to take his grief and hurt seriously.

As for Izzy... well, she's not terribly appropriate. Drag her through Quentin's lair for All That Remains; Hawke's flipping her spit and Izzy's like "lol shrines are funny." I imagine any Hawke who's particularly close to her just has a certian "ignore Isabela" threshold during dramatic circumstances.

Modifié par Quething, 04 novembre 2011 - 10:09 .

[upsettingshorts]

Quething wrote...

You cannot hold it against Sebastian that he fails to do things on his own, and not hold it equally against every other character that none of them do either.

Did we play the same game?

If you think Sebastian is just as focused and driven as any other companion, you're mad, and inventing self-serving criteria for what constitutes independent action.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 novembre 2011 - 10:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Then why were you talking about it like it was an actual character flaw, or that by calling for Anders execution he crossed some sort of moral line (your exact words, if you forget were "sank to that level"). If you prefer Anders, or think he'll be more useful to the mage cause, that's fine. But just say so.

What I'm saying is that there are reasons why Hawke could see that decision as being a less fair one than any other companion has asked her to make. Though mostly I just think that Anders will be more useful; to be honest, I also like Merrill's reasoning of Anders setting things right.

It could also be said that his reluctance to kill Anders himself is because of his respect and/or admiration for Hawke. I'm more amazed that Meredith didn't cut him down on the spot, or even Orsino.

Anders was Meredith's blank check to slaughter the entire Circle, and Orsino had other things on his mind.

[Xilizhra]

I fail to see how Anders has any more right to live than Elthina, who was guilty of trying to preach compromise.

This works, but only because everyone has a right to live. Elthina was worse than useless; she was downright criminally negligent. I'm not particularly happy about anyone dying, but I'm not particularly sad about one of them being Elthina. So if I kill Anders, it's certainly not for reasons of justice, only because I want Sebastian's resources. But I doubt they're reliable.

[Quething]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Did we play the same game?

Well we're clearly not having the same conversation.

If you think Sebastian is just as focused and driven as any other companion, you're mad, and inventing self-serving criteria for what constitutes independent action.

I don't, dude. This has nothing to do with characterization.

@Xil: So you disagree with Anders himself that his death would be just? Or do you simply not prioritize that above what use you see in him for the mage rebellion?

Modifié par Quething, 05 novembre 2011 - 12:12 .

[Xilizhra]

@Xil: So you disagree with Anders himself that his death would be just? Or do you simply not prioritize that above what use you see in him for the mage rebellion?

Ironically, I actually agree with Elthina in that I believe that death is never justice. At best, it's an unfortunate necessity.

[leggywillow]

Rojahar wrote...

Sebastian was the King of Waffling, but I still loved him. He was a nice guy, and tried getting along with everyone. As far as the whole Anders decision, I don't think most of us would react much better than Seb did if someone like Anders killed our loved ones and the murder was condoned. Elthina was like a mother to him, and he'd known her and others at the Chantry for a decade or two, not to mention if not for luck he would have been in that Chantry too. I fail to see how Anders has any more right to live than Elthina, who was guilty of trying to preach compromise.

But to me, that isn't the point.  Some Hawkes would never even consider letting Anders live after that, so Sebastian encouraging them to do so without offering to do it himself is a complete non-issue.  For other players, that's not the case.  For me, whether Anders deserves to die is beside the point.  It's the question of why Hawke must be the one to do it.  If the situation could invoke such justifiable rage and irrational behavior in Seb (since most people in this thread think his threat to tear Kirkwall apart is mostly born out of anger, yes?), then why can't he actually take the killing blow himself?  It could always be a design oversight, but given Sebastian's tendency towards indecision and leaving the weight of responsibility on other people's shoulders, I am tempted to think this is intended.

So my problem isn't that he wants Anders dead and he wants him dead now.  I get that 100%.  My problem is that he won't do it himself.

ETA:  And this isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I like Sebastian as a character; I think he's well-written and has an interesting role in the plot.

Modifié par leggywillow, 05 novembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ironically, I actually agree with Elthina in that I believe that death is never justice. At best, it's an unfortunate necessity.

I do think there's not enough variety to that choice on all sides. Not just in what you can and can't say to Sebastian, but also in terms of how you resolve/justify your choice to Anders himself. For example, my mage Hawke lets Anders live for a couple reasons; one, she finds the idea of martyring him problematic and likely counterproductive, and two, she agrees with Merrill that he should make things right. But you can't really express that; if Anders lives and you side with the mages the game pretty much assumes you agreed with his actions.

Sebastian is equally frustrating if you side with the templars. He's pretty much all "yeah! Let's butcher some maleficarum!" Even Friended Fenris' templar-siding final convo lets you express regret and frustration with the purge. (Of course neither of them is as bad as Varric. "Protecting our way of life"? Really Varric? And you can't disagree with him in either case.)

Modifié par Quething, 05 novembre 2011 - 12:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

What do you guys mean by Anders living? That never happened in my game.

[Quething]

leggywillow wrote...

So my problem isn't that he wants Anders dead and he wants him dead now.  I get that 100%.  My problem is that he won't do it himself.

But again, that's only because he's never given the option.

DA2 doesn't have interrupts. There's no way to have him start to kill Anders himself and let Hawke jump in to stop him. The situation must start with a decision presented to Hawke (as, in your Landsmeet example, things start with the "who will duel" decision presented to the Warden, or the "should he be Wardened" decision, again, presented to the Warden). And of course it wouldn't be particularly in-character if he did.

But Hawke is not able to say "okay, in that case, you do it." Hawke is only able to tell him, "Anders will not die and I, personally, will back that up with force." Of course Seb's not going to fight you on that. He's a waffler, not an idiot, and Hawke's still his friend anyway, even if she has just stabbed him in the back, he doesn't want her dead.

Now, if you were able to say, "do it," and he both a) refused, and still demanded that Hawke do it for him, rather than backing down and saying "no, you're right, fine, this isn't right," then I would say: yes. It's fair to judge him for that. It's fair to call him weak or hypocritical or all sorts of other things. But that's not what happened. What happened is, he called for Anders' death, and you said "that won't happen on my watch." And that's all. You can't fault him for failing to act in that case, because all he's failing to do is throw himself on Hawke's sword.

Modifié par Quething, 05 novembre 2011 - 12:29 .

[Xilizhra]

But you can't really express that; if Anders lives and you side with the mages the game pretty much assumes you agreed with his actions.

I think all it assumes is that they weren't as bad as what Meredith is doing. You can certainly berate him at the beginning.

[Xewaka]

Dave of Canada wrote...
What do you guys mean by Anders living? That never happened in my game.

I wanted him to live in my game. However, the game didn't allow to have him chained, gagged, and dragged off by Aveline to jail to pay for his crimes. So I had to do with the murder knife.

[LessThanKate]

Quething wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's a convenient post-hoc rationalization that invents aspects of Sebastian's character as necessary instead of reflecting ones already in evidence throughout the narrative.

It has nothing to do with Sebastian's character at all. Any more than it reflects Aveline's character that she'll let you sell Isabela out to the Arishok. Any more than it reflects Isabela's character that she'll handwave you giving Fenris to Denarius. It's a simple matter of game mechanics. You cannot hold it against Sebastian that he fails to do things on his own, and not hold it equally against every other character that none of them do either. You cannot hold it against Sebastian that he asks Hawke to do things for him that he should be capable of and may well have far more interest in, and not hold it equally against every other character for repeatedly doing the same. That is simply how DA2 - in fact, RPGs in general - function.

This sums up my feelings on the matter quite nicely. Doesn't seem fair to hold these things against Sebastian, even if it is very debatable if he would do the deed himself. Hawke never gives him the greenlight to di it; like many situations in the game, it's just one option or the other, yes or no. Either Hawke does something or it doesn't get done. Maybe it was how the game was meant to work, maybe it was an oversight. I very much doubt anyone's criticizing Hawke, their PC, for a limited range of actions and dialogues. And it's not even the first or last time something like this happens; no one physically tries to stop you when selling out Isabela, giving back Fenris, or killing Bethany. Why should this be different? Why would it be?

Even in the previous game, Alistair only kills Loghain in situation orchestrated by the Warden. Either he/she choses Alistair to be the champion to fight in the duel, in which he kills him automatically, or if the Warden or someone else does it, he/she must either say "You do it, if it means that much to you," or "I can't do this,". I had no issue with doing it myself, but I would have liked options like those. But it's how this game works; you trade in a wider range of dialogue options for a voice and a clearer personality path.

With the situation in DA2, all Hawke can do is either comply and kill Anders, or spare him and basically tell Sebastian to ****** off, which I found super inappropriate. Are people expecting Sebastian to fight Hawke right there, somehow try to nudge past him/her and give Anders a quick shank? Hawke is a powerful, influential figure and surrounded by several allies; once Hawke says no, what is he supposed to do except leave?

That being said, I'm not 100% sure if he would do it if given the option. I figure there's a mix of both respect and fear of Hawke. This is probably why he vows to come back with an army; he can't oppose him/her by himself.

[Xilizhra]

Are people expecting Sebastian to fight Hawke right there, somehow try to nudge past him/her and give Anders a quick shank?

Well, he does kinda have a bow, with which he can hit the eyeslit of a helmet from the top of a castle rampart.

With the situation in DA2, all Hawke can do is either comply and kill Anders, or spare him and basically tell Sebastian to ****** off, which I found super inappropriate.

So is it inappropriate for all Hawkes to do so regardless of why they want to save Anders?

[LessThanKate]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, he does kinda have a bow, with which he can hit the eyeslit of a helmet from the top of a castle rampart.

You don't think there'd be any repercussions for doing it once it's been established Hawke won't kill him? You think he should have just whipped out his bow and everyone would just shrug it off?

Xilizhra wrote...
So is it inappropriate for all Hawkes to do so regardless of why they want to save Anders?

Tell him to ****** off whether or not you kill Anders? ...Yes? When someone's undergoing extreme grief and anger, telling them not to interfere...probably won't get favorable results. Even in a more controlled, realistic scenario; when you're upset and someone tells you to calm down, does that not just make you more upset? Is it not the most insensitive, insulting thing a person can say, especially when your feelings, however irrational they may be, are completely understandable and stem from loss and pain? 

Maybe we'd all have our answer if Hawke gave a more clear answer when Sebastian interrupts. Instead of "Do not interfere, Sebastian", "I'm not killing him" would have forced him to say something in regards to why Anders must die rather than going into defens mode. 

Modifié par LessThanKate, 05 novembre 2011 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, it wasn't an optimal line. I think it'd most fit my mage Hawke; I don't actually know why my rogue Hawke would say that, to be honest.

You don't think there'd be any repercussions for doing it once it's been established Hawke won't kill him? You think he should have just whipped out his bow and everyone would just shrug it off?

I suppose it depends on how badly he wanted Anders dead.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 novembre 2011 - 02:30 .