2724 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackLotus30]

it irk me that people are willing to forgive a full romanced Alistair for running when your warden spare Loghain and yet people call Sebastian an hypocrite for running in anger when Hawke spare Anders. For me both Loghain and Anders deserve their fates. People call Sebastian preachy but in truth Anders is the preachy character he's worse than Sebastian in that regard.... All you hear from Anders is mage this, mage that, templars are evil, chantry blah blah blah. All Sebastian tries to do is to show the good side of the chantry and people are on him about it like piranahs are on people in movies ready to shred him into peices.

But I think if your Hawke is a mage.. the love between him and your mage is tragic when you think about it. Even if you take account the Friendmance or rivalmance.. Friendmance yes he marries your character(mage) but only because Elthina would be the only mother to do the ceremony.. now that the Kirkwall chantry is gone.. no other chantry would ever accept hawke to serve the maker with Sebastian at her side they would just ship her to a circle or worse, not to forget that Mage/Templar war brewing.

Rivalmance lets assume Sebastian does go back to Starkhaven with the intent of making you his bride? No matter how much they would both want it it will NEVER happen even with sebastian as prince. The people of Starkhaven are dedicated to the chantry, they will never allow a mage princess to be possible not to mention that being a mage does have a high probability of having mageborn children.

So if they put him in DA 3 i hope they do him justice and if he get's to be my PC romance option then I better be able to select that my hawke died in an heroic sacrifice to put him on the throne...or something like that....

[Ellyria]

BlackLotus30 wrote...

it irk me that people are willing to forgive a full romanced Alistair for running when your warden spare Loghain and yet people call Sebastian an hypocrite for running in anger when Hawke spare Anders. For me both Loghain and Anders deserve their fates. People call Sebastian preachy but in truth Anders is the preachy character he's worse than Sebastian in that regard.... All you hear from Anders is mage this, mage that, templars are evil, chantry blah blah blah. All Sebastian tries to do is to show the good side of the chantry and people are on him about it like piranahs are on people in movies ready to shred him into peices.

 

This this this! I was trying to hint at this on the other page. Sure, Alistair is more fleshed out as a character and a full romance, but he still leaves if you let Loghain live. FemWarden and Alistair aren't married at that point like FemHawke and Friendmanced!Sebastian are, but it still stings. A lot.

BlackLotus30 wrote... 

So if they put him in DA 3 i hope they do him justice and if he get's to be my PC romance option then I better be able to select that my hawke died in an heroic sacrifice to put him on the throne...or something like that....

If Sebastian is a romance option in DA3 I will weep buckets. It would be like bringing Morrigan/Leliana/Zevran/Alistair/Fenris/Merrill/Isabela/Anders back in DA3 and allowing the new PC to romance them. Sebastian may not be a full romance option, but he's still an option, and I wouldn't want my option to romance him as Hawke to be spit on.

[Dwarva]

BlackLotus30 wrote...

it irk me that people are willing to forgive a full romanced Alistair for running when your warden spare Loghain and yet people call Sebastian an hypocrite for running in anger when Hawke spare Anders.

Not sure if that's aimed at me but I didn't forgive Alistair eiteher tbh. I thought what he did was really crappy too. However, for me, it goes to their character. Sebastian was all about loyalty and trust. He was an older adult who prided himself on making good choices now that his wild days were over. Alistair on the other hand was self admittedly pretty immature and had never been in a real relationship before. I could almost understand his freaking out and fleeing under those circumstances. I don't forgive it, but given the background and history of his character it didn't surprise me. Sebastian just came across as more mature and responsible with his love. I admit though that it might be just my interpretation but with alistairs choice I was shocked, but understood. With Sebastian I just....thought it felt out of character. He wouldn't marry someone unless he really felt he knew the person and if he had known my Hawke, he'd have realised she was too merciful to kill Anders. 

[BlackLotus30]

Staarbux wrote...

BlackLotus30 wrote...

it irk me that people are willing to forgive a full romanced Alistair for running when your warden spare Loghain and yet people call Sebastian an hypocrite for running in anger when Hawke spare Anders.

Not sure if that's aimed at me but I didn't forgive Alistair eiteher tbh. I thought what he did was really crappy too. However, for me, it goes to their character. Sebastian was all about loyalty and trust. He was an older adult who prided himself on making good choices now that his wild days were over. Alistair on the other hand was self admittedly pretty immature and had never been in a real relationship before. I could almost understand his freaking out and fleeing under those circumstances. I don't forgive it, but given the background and history of his character it didn't surprise me. Sebastian just came across as more mature and responsible with his love. I admit though that it might be just my interpretation but with alistairs choice I was shocked, but understood. With Sebastian I just....thought it felt out of character. He wouldn't marry someone unless he really felt he knew the person and if he had known my Hawke, he'd have realised she was too merciful to kill Anders. 

Nah it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular on the bioware social forums. Thought well maybe my problem is with the fact that with all the hell Loghain put the warden and felderen trought..I have trouble understanding why anyone in their right mind would even spare him (no offence).

It's like that argument I keep hearing about "I'm sorry Sebastian i like you and all but Anders is the only good healer so i'm afraid i'll have to side with the crazy possessed mage that just killed innocent people and your surrogate mother just to make a point and probably made it worse for the mage in Thedas. I'm sure we can still be friends/lover/husband/wife right?"  I can attest that Anders is not need at the end to beat the bosses. Sebastian may have prided himself with that, but that doesn't mean he isn't flawed.. I think Sebastian biggest flaw is that he's insecure.. He wasn't wanted by his own familly tried to get their attention got sent to the chantry for his trouble.

Don't know maybe i'm too nice and can't really go for the shady bad(evil)(Villain) or the tortured kind with the road to hell is pave with good intention vibe character..... only Jarlaxle and Artemis get a pass because well they are Jax & Artemis.

Chylise, I know what you mean... but well it's Sebastian and his voice....at least we'll hear him talk sweet nothing... well if they actually do it.

[Samzo77]

 Sebastian is my favorite character from any of the DA games or add ons. He was written and voiced fantastically, and is consistent in his actions. His conversations with Fenris are dynamite dialogue, and he has very compelling thoughts and motives.
He also never really attempts comic relief, which I like.

[Sylvanpyxie]

I have no idea how many people visit this thread anymore, but i'm curious to know what Sebastian fan's (heck, i want any opinion. If you're reading this give it your best shot.) opinions are on this:

What is Sebastian's defining quality? His religion? His passion? His good heart?

What is the very essence of his character?

Personally? I think he's defined by his passion.. No matter how hard he tries to remain true to the Chantry, the moment some horrific crime befalls him, or the people he cares about, he's consumed by his need for justice. His religion takes to the side-lines and all his teachings leave him. He becomes single-minded in his need to avenge his wronged loved ones.

His religion always seems to play second fiddle. Yes, he always seems to return to the Chantry, almost repentant for the "sins" he's committed in the name of justice, but he's seems incapable of truly devoting himself to the Chantry's service.

It's almost as if he's afraid of who he is. Afraid of his passion, afraid of his outrageous anger at injustice, afraid of the things he'll do to achieve justice, and he uses the Chantry as a safety blanket, as if it has the power to protect him from his passionate nature.

I think, as he was in his Roguish past, he is still defined by his passion.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:05 .

[Ellyria]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I have no idea how many people visit this thread anymore, but i'm curious to know what Sebastian fan's (heck, i want any opinion. If you're reading this give it your best shot.) opinions are on this:

What is Sebastian's defining quality? His religion? His passion? His good heart?

What is the very essence of his character?

Personally? I think he's defined by his passion.. No matter how hard he tries to remain true to the Chantry, the moment some horrific crime befalls him, or the people he cares about, he's consumed by his need for justice. His religion takes to the side-lines and all his teachings leave him. He becomes single-minded in his need to avenge his wronged loved ones.

His religion always seems to play second fiddle. Yes, he always seems to return to the Chantry, almost repentant for the "sins" he's committed in the name of justice, but he's seems incapable of truly devoting himself to the Chantry's service.

It's almost as if he's afraid of who he is. Afraid of his passion, afraid of his outrageous anger at injustice, afraid of the things he'll do to achieve justice, and he uses the Chantry as a safety blanket, as if it has the power to protect him from his passionate nature.

I think, as he was in his Roguish past, he is still defined by his passion.

Yes, I have to agree with you about his passion being his defining characteristic. Some people might say it's his indecisiveness (as it takes him six years to decide whether to retake Starkhaven or stay in the Chantry), but to me, it seems when he gets an idea in his head, he throws himself at it full force without stopping to think about it. He was determined to stick it to his parents, so he became the black sheep with all the drinking and whoring he did. He hated being in the Chantry and was determined to get out, until Elthina points out that he may actually belong there and if he leaves for a bit he might come back. Then he throws himself into his Chantry devotion until his family is killed, which causes him to be consumed with avenging them and reclaiming Starkhaven, until Allure makes him doubt himself and he crawls back to the Chantry because it's the safe choice. When Anders blows up the Chantry and Elthina dies, Sebastian is so angry that he threatens to raze Kirkwall to the ground with an army from Starkhaven, especially if Hawke lets Anders live. (Whether he does or not maybe we'll never know since the Exalted March got cancelled.) 

[AbsoluteApril]

does anyone have good screenshots of the Starkhaven Bow? I haven't had much luck finding any besides the one from the wiki.
thanks! (it's for a drawing I'm working on)

[PinkDiamondstl]

Bump

[Amirit]

Staarbux wrote...
Sebastian was all about loyalty and trust. 

I'll just leave it here: 

Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.
Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

Modifié par Amirit, 01 août 2012 - 02:28 .

[TEWR]

That dialogue of Sebastian's is really something that I detested, when he's using it to talk about Merrill.

Fenris, for all of his faults, won't sell out Hawke's friends despite any animosity he may bear towards them.

It's funny. Fenris abhors Merrill but he won't sell her out to the Templars. On the opposite side of things, Sebastian and Merrill get along fine but he's perfectly content with selling her out to the Templars, even if she and Hawke are in a romance.

I could understand him wanting to sell out Anders -- due to Anders being an Abomination -- but to sell out Merrill? He may act the part of Hawke's friend but he really doesn't display it sometimes.

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That dialogue of Sebastian's is really something that I detested, when he's using it to talk about Merrill.

Fenris, for all of his faults, won't sell out Hawke's friends despite any animosity he may bear towards them.

It's funny. Fenris abhors Merrill but he won't sell her out to the Templars. On the opposite side of things, Sebastian and Merrill get along fine but he's perfectly content with selling her out to the Templars, even if she and Hawke are in a romance.

I could understand him wanting to sell out Anders -- due to Anders being an Abomination -- but to sell out Merrill? He may act the part of Hawke's friend but he really doesn't display it sometimes.

Actually it is eaisly understandable after all Sebastian is for better and worse devout to the chantry's definition of Andrastism, that means that in his eyes blood magic is evil. The end. It doesn't matter that he gets along with Merrill, he sees her magic as evil and at that point he is worried about Elthina and mages.

I just wished he wouldn't use it if Hawke is a mage. I know that Malificarum techinacally means evil mage, but most think blood mage first when used which basically mean that a paranoid Hawke could easily take it to mean her. Sadly Sebastian is completely blind to it if Hawke is a mage.

[berelinde]

How would Sebastian even know Anders's status? In my games, Sebastian spends pretty close to zero time in the party and he doesn't socialize with the others the way every other NPC does. I guess a wizard did it.

[esper]

I don't think he needs to know Anders status at that point to consider him malificarum, by act 3 I think that it is very, very clear to anobody talking to Anders in two seconds that Anders is very anti-chantry and wants to abolish the chantry hold on the circles thus a 'evil mage' - malificarum.

[thats1evildude]

In addition to the party members who form friendships with each other, the game assumes that Hawke's party members all meet or at least hear about each other off-camera.

Sure, Sebastian doesn't  head to the Hanged Man every other week, but do you think he didn't attend the ceremony where Hawke got the shiny Champion medal? Or that he and Anders didn't come to Aveline's wedding? There are plenty of opportunities for them to be in the same room at some point.

I find it odd that Hawke didn't jump in there with an "over your dead body, Sebastian", but Fenris does shoot down the idea.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 août 2012 - 05:30 .

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

Actually it is eaisly understandable after all Sebastian is for better and worse devout to the chantry's definition of Andrastism, that means that in his eyes blood magic is evil. The end. It doesn't matter that he gets along with Merrill, he sees her magic as evil and at that point he is worried about Elthina and mages.

I just wished he wouldn't use it if Hawke is a mage. I know that Malificarum techinacally means evil mage, but most think blood mage first when used which basically mean that a paranoid Hawke could easily take it to mean her. Sadly Sebastian is completely blind to it if Hawke is a mage.

Maleficarum, per the Chantry's definition, does mean any mage that uses blood magic. Being evil is just sort of ingrained into that notion, as the Chantry -- and many Andrastians -- can't acknowledge the notion that blood magic isn't inherently evil and that not all blood mages are evil.

Maleficarum doesn't mean "evil mage". But "evil mage" is a part of being labeled maleficarum.

berelinde wrote...

How would Sebastian even know Anders's status? In my games, Sebastian spends pretty close to zero time in the party and he doesn't socialize with the others the way every other NPC does. I guess a wizard did it.

He hears things, just as all the companions do. It's like thats1evildude said. They're all there for a lot of moments, regardless of whether or not you take them with you for the quests. He's a part of the group.

And it's not like Anders is exactly quiet about his situation, nor are the rest of the companions for that matter.

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

esper wrote...

Actually it is eaisly understandable after all Sebastian is for better and worse devout to the chantry's definition of Andrastism, that means that in his eyes blood magic is evil. The end. It doesn't matter that he gets along with Merrill, he sees her magic as evil and at that point he is worried about Elthina and mages.

I just wished he wouldn't use it if Hawke is a mage. I know that Malificarum techinacally means evil mage, but most think blood mage first when used which basically mean that a paranoid Hawke could easily take it to mean her. Sadly Sebastian is completely blind to it if Hawke is a mage.

Maleficarum, per the Chantry's definition, does mean any mage that uses blood magic. Being evil is just sort of ingrained into that notion, as the Chantry -- and many Andrastians -- can't acknowledge the notion that blood magic isn't inherently evil and that not all blood mages are evil.

Maleficarum doesn't mean "evil mage". But "evil mage" is a part of being labeled maleficarum.

I guess it's debatable -- here's what's actually in the Chant:

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
- Transfigurations 1:2

So while anyone who reads the Chant for themselves could take maleficar to mean any mage that uses magic with impure intent, the Chantry traditionally upholds that maleficar are blood mages specifically. Which makes sense, given that

A. The Maker and the Old Gods (who first taught blood magic) are old enemies
B. Blood magic (although not always used for evil) allows for the powers of mind domination ("Magic exists... never to rule over him"), and
C. Blood magic spells are often (but not always) fueled by the blood of innocent thralls ("Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children.")

Granted, the Chantry doesn't seem awesome at practicing their own text's rules about decent mortal conduct, but when you hear a Chantry official say "maleficar" they pretty much definitely mean "blood mage."
For all Sebastian knew though, Anders could have been one as well. Or he may not have seen the distinction between Anders' relationship with Justice/Vengeance and your garden variety deal with a demon. That might have been close enough in his eyes.

Still, in this girl's opinion, turning in Merrill isn't necessarily a terrible choice. What? People are historically not great at using blood magic safely. The lives of innocents are worth protecting in a situation as highly volatile as that one was, even where friendship is involved.

[Amirit]

I can only repeat after Fenris - "Then why haven't you done it?"
He wants to turn in mages around Hawk (Hawk itself?) - yet has no balls to do it himself and trying to corrupt Fenris. He wants to kill Anders, yet, while he is standing right in front of him, he is waiting for others to do so. He expects others to do any dirty job he comes up with (which is many). Real royalty!

But all of these was in response to mentioning his "honor and loyalty"

Modifié par Amirit, 01 août 2012 - 10:57 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

He expects others to do any dirty job he comes up with

This is one of the things i actually like about Sebastian's character.

He has a great deal of passion, especially when it comes to matters of justice. His big problem is, he tries to fight that passion, it's like he's almost afraid of it. Whether he's afraid of becoming his old self, or afraid that his passions will cause the Chantry to outcast him, i don't know.

He relies on other people to fulfill his passionate nature, because he himself is afraid to do so. He's uncertain about where he should be, and who he should be, and he's constantly trying to deny what he feels.

When it comes down to the final decision between Sebastian and Anders, i honestly believe there should have been the option to tell Sebastian to do it, because it would've been a huge turning point for his character. He would have finally been faced with the crucial decision - Devotion or Passion. It would've been incredible.

Unfortunately true character development wasn't on the schedule that day.

As for his remark to Fenris about Anders and Merrill, i can't really decipher his mind-set on that one. It could just be, after knowing them for a prolonged period of time, Sebastian believes they may both be a threat to the "innocents" of Kirkwall. Maybe he just sees their freedom and their beliefs as a threat.

Let's face it, Anders isn't the most mentally stable person in the world and constantly voices his negative opinions on the Chantry, the Chantry that happens to be Sebastian's safe haven and his only remaining home. All the while little Merrill is practicing Blood Magic, which Sebastian has been raised to believe is the most dangerous form of magic in existence.

I can understand why he'd voice concerns about the two of them, though doing it with a banter between him and Fenris was a poor choice. It didn't offer Hawke the opportunity to argue with him.

What they should have done is made it a personal conversation between Sebastian and Hawke. Similar to the conversation you get with Varric if you're romancing someone. Just him voicing his concerns, it would have given Hawkes, who openly support Merrill and Anders, an opportunity to yell at him, and it'd also have given Mage Hawkes the opportunity to reason with him... Or yell at him.

But yeah, i can understand Sebastian's concerns regarding Merrill and Anders. The only real problem is that it was put in as a piece of party banter, it should have been a full blown conversation/argument between him and Hawke.

That's just my opinion on it all anyway.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 01 août 2012 - 01:26 .

[Dwarva]

When it comes down to the final decision between Sebastian and Anders, i honestly believe there should have been the option to tell Sebastian to do it, because it would've been a huge turning point for his character. He would have finally been faced with the crucial decision - Devotion or Passion. It would've been incredible.

I would have loved that too. I think it was more of a practical reason for not doing it though - it would have had to have been considered a decision flag (I assume) going into DA3 and I suspect they want to retain those for the most important choices.

[syllogi]

Amirit wrote...

I can only repeat after Fenris - "Then why haven't you done it?"
He wants to turn in mages around Hawk (Hawk itself?) - yet has no balls to do it himself and trying to corrupt Fenris. He wants to kill Anders, yet, while he is standing right in front of him, he is waiting for others to do so. He expects others to do any dirty job he comes up with (which is many). Real royalty!

But all of these was in response to mentioning his "honor and loyalty"

Sebastian is a Chantry lay brother, and it wouldn't make sense if he didn't at least think about turning in the apostates he's associating with.

Apostates are not a normal thing in Thedas.  EVERY mage is supposed to be in a circle.  If you are an apostate, you are breaking the law of the land.  Whether the conditions of the circles are good or not, a "good citizen" would turn in any known apostates.

Sebastian may talk to Fenris about turning the apostates in the party in, but he doesn't, so we can infer that he's either scared of pissing off powerful mages, or he actually cares about them, and knows that they aren't going to be treated well in the Gallows, even though it's the "right" thing to do.

Not killing Anders himself when he's obviously extremely upset is probably more about game mechanics...Sebastian attacking the party if Hawke chooses to spare Anders would make him unavailable for future DLC or games, and that seemed to be what they wanted.

People don't condemn Fenris, Merrill, or Aveline for possibly attacking Hawke in that same scene, if they do not have sufficient friendship/rivalry, because they know that their "betrayal" can be prevented.  But Sebastian, like the others, is just reacting to the situation...his mother figure/mentor has been murdered.  It would have been unnatural for him to not be extremely upset.

[Xilizhra]

Still, in this girl's opinion, turning in Merrill isn't necessarily a terrible choice. What? People are historically not great at using blood magic safely. The lives of innocents are worth protecting in a situation as highly volatile as that one was, even where friendship is involved.

It's base treachery and hideously unjust premature judgment. It would be a horrible decision and while I don't actually hate Sebastian for wanting to do so, I would have no qualms about killing him if he tried to do it himself.

As for his abandoning me in The Last Straw... well, it's his decision. He did not, in the end, see the darkness within Elthina and the Chantry, which is unfortunate, but given how deceptive Elthina is, hardly surprising. I doubt he'll accomplish yet another rashly sworn vow; if he does... well, then he becomes an enemy. Sad, but no sadder than a lot of other things I've dealt with.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[AbsoluteApril]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

When it comes down to the final decision between Sebastian and Anders, i honestly believe there should have been the option to tell Sebastian to do it, because it would've been a huge turning point for his character. He would have finally been faced with the crucial decision - Devotion or Passion. It would've been incredible.

wonderful post! I agree with this, that would have been a great option to have. They probably couldn't put it in since he was a DLC character. alas

[brushyourteeth]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

He expects others to do any dirty job he comes up with

This is one of the things i actually like about Sebastian's character.

He has a great deal of passion, especially when it comes to matters of justice. His big problem is, he tries to fight that passion, it's like he's almost afraid of it. Whether he's afraid of becoming his old self, or afraid that his passions will cause the Chantry to outcast him, i don't know.

He relies on other people to fulfill his passionate nature, because he himself is afraid to do so. He's uncertain about where he should be, and who he should be, and he's constantly trying to deny what he feels.

When it comes down to the final decision between Sebastian and Anders, i honestly believe there should have been the option to tell Sebastian to do it, because it would've been a huge turning point for his character. He would have finally been faced with the crucial decision - Devotion or Passion. It would've been incredible.

Unfortunately true character development wasn't on the schedule that day.

As for his remark to Fenris about Anders and Merrill, i can't really decipher his mind-set on that one. It could just be, after knowing them for a prolonged period of time, Sebastian believes they may both be a threat to the "innocents" of Kirkwall. Maybe he just sees their freedom and their beliefs as a threat.

Let's face it, Anders isn't the most mentally stable person in the world and constantly voices his negative opinions on the Chantry, the Chantry that happens to be Sebastian's safe haven and his only remaining home. All the while little Merrill is practicing Blood Magic, which Sebastian has been raised to believe is the most dangerous form of magic in existence.

I can understand why he'd voice concerns about the two of them, though doing it with a banter between him and Fenris was a poor choice. It didn't offer Hawke the opportunity to argue with him.

What they should have done is made it a personal conversation between Sebastian and Hawke. Similar to the conversation you get with Varric if you're romancing someone. Just him voicing his concerns, it would have given Hawkes, who openly support Merrill and Anders, an opportunity to yell at him, and it'd also have given Mage Hawkes the opportunity to reason with him... Or yell at him.

But yeah, i can understand Sebastian's concerns regarding Merrill and Anders. The only real problem is that it was put in as a piece of party banter, it should have been a full blown conversation/argument between him and Hawke.

That's just my opinion on it all anyway.

This is flawless.