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[jamesp81]

I have to admit, I was not pleased with how he treated the surviving Harriman's in his first companion quest.

Lady Harriman needed a good killing, but the way he treated the other members of the household, as if they had a choice in their Lady's madness, did not endear him to me.

His "rawr" about Anders doesn't impress me either. I get the problems people have with Anders's actions. It's not something I would've done myself. Yet I can't help but think the templars brought it on themselves and the chantry they allegedly serve.

When it comes to Anders's actions, I shall use a quote from a favorite author of mine:

"Sometimes, you get what's coming around. But sometimes, you ARE what's coming around."

So happens that Anders was the one who Came Around first.

Anders is the logical consequence of the chantry permitting the templars to run amok.  I will not erase their problem for them so they can pretend it never happened.  I will exact retribution on the templars, but I will also show them the consequences of their actions, their crimes, and why such actions are being taken. If that's not done, nothing is learned. In Anders they will get a clear picture of what they will suffer if they continue their tyranny. If they change, well and good. If not, I will kill them all.

As for Sebastian, if you let Anders live he threatens to march Starkhaven's armies against Kirkwall. Having seen the place up close, this might very well be for the best.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 août 2011 - 04:17 .

[syllogi]

jamesp81 wrote...

I have to admit, I was not pleased with how he treated the surviving Harriman's in his first companion quest.

Lady Harriman needed a good killing, but the way he treated the other members of the household, as if they had a choice in their Lady's madness, did not endear him to me.

His entire family was still dead, and as he said, the desire demon can't make people do something they really didn't want to do.  Flora might have only been drinking, but the others were behaving pretty horribly.  I'm not sure how you wanted Sebastian to behave towards people who were torturing and sexually abusing their servants just a few minutes earlier?

His "rawr" about Anders doesn't impress me either. I get the problems people have with Anders's actions. It's not something I would've done myself. Yet I can't help but think the templars brought it on themselves and the chantry they allegedly serve.

When it comes to Anders's actions, I shall use a quote from a favorite author of mine:

"Sometimes, you get what's coming around. But sometimes, you ARE what's coming around."

So happens that Anders was the one who Came Around first.

Anders is the logical consequence of the chantry permitting the templars to run amok.  I will not erase their problem for them so they can pretend it never happened.  I will exact retribution on the templars, but I will also show them the consequences of their actions, their crimes, and why such actions are being taken. If that's not done, nothing is learned. In Anders they will get a clear picture of what they will suffer if they continue their tyranny. If they change, well and good. If not, I will kill them all.

As for Sebastian, if you let Anders live he threatens to march Starkhaven's armies against Kirkwall. Having seen the place up close, this might very well be for the best.

Sebastian lived and worked among the members of the Chantry for many years.  Elthina was like a mother to him.  Saying that the templars got what they deserved doesn't make that any less painful for him.  His reaction makes sense, and it's kind of essential to the scene, imo, to have someone who was personally affected by Anders' actions right there, to be understandably upset, whether the player agrees with Anders or not.

[randomcheeses]

jamesp81 wrote...

I have to admit, I was not pleased with how he treated the surviving Harriman's in his first companion quest.

Lady Harriman needed a good killing, but the way he treated the other members of the household, as if they had a choice in their Lady's madness, did not endear him to me.

Really, because if you go the friendship route with him, he's amazingly damn forgiving to them considering the circumstances and even the rivalry response isn't very harsh. I'd probably have killed them all while screaming in rage.

His "rawr" about Anders doesn't impress me either. I get the problems people have with Anders's actions. It's not something I would've done myself. Yet I can't help but think the templars brought it on themselves and the chantry they allegedly serve.

When it comes to Anders's actions, I shall use a quote from a favorite author of mine:

"Sometimes, you get what's coming around. But sometimes, you ARE what's coming around."

So happens that Anders was the one who Came Around first.

Anders is the logical consequence of the chantry permitting the templars to run amok.  I will not erase their problem for them so they can pretend it never happened.  I will exact retribution on the templars, but I will also show them the consequences of their actions, their crimes, and why such actions are being taken. If that's not done, nothing is learned. In Anders they will get a clear picture of what they will suffer if they continue their tyranny. If they change, well and good. If not, I will kill them all.

As for Sebastian, if you let Anders live he threatens to march Starkhaven's armies against Kirkwall. Having seen the place up close, this might very well be for the best.

To quote what I said in another thread:

Anders has only just murdered someone who was like a mother to him. Of course he's upset, of course he's swearing elaborate revenge. It's only just happened. He's still in shock and has had no time at all to grieve or deal with the shock. So yes, his vengeance on all Kirkwall thing is kinda overdoing things, but that's the damn point. At that particular moment he's not in his right mind and judging him on that particular moment is immature and silly.

No one is a bastion of calm and sanity when their mother/mother-figure has just been murdered in front of them and it's unfair and hypocritical to demand that of Sebastian.

As for the banter he has with Fenris about turning Merril and Anders over to the Templars, well, think about it from Sebastian's point of view: Anders is an abomination and Merril no matter how cute she is, is a practicing blood mage who deals with demons. The fact that he doesn't turn them in shows how loyal he is to Hawke.

Also, for what it's worth, Sebastian's banter with Merril both before and after her personal quest is a hell of a lot more polite and nice than either Anders or Fenris.

Modifié par randomcheeses, 01 août 2011 - 06:29 .

[Chignon]

Sebastian lost his surrogate mother and his home for the last decade in one moment. He should not be judged by what he says in a moment of grief and anger, he should be judged by the action that follow.

[Thiefy]

Replaying Legacy and I just got the Seb/Bethany flirt, the only thing is the file I am using is my Anders friendmance file o_0

are you guys sure that the particular flirt involved is for rivalmance? Because while I did flirt with Seb, he is on friendship side and my Hawke gave the "Nothing, just interrupting," response.

It could easily be Hawke is protective of her sister. Can anyone at least play through with a Male Hawke and take Seb + Beth to see if it still triggers?

[parara]

Tried that; I had the flirt lines trigger for my male Hawke but he didn't interrupt.

[Thiefy]

I see, so maybe it triggers with an incomplete romance? Because I was definitely in a romance with Anders and I've yet to do a rival Seb playthrough.

It's weird that a friendship Seb would get the same dialouge as a rival Seb, if the romance hasn't been completed/played earlier save instead of post-game save. Do you think Seb is bugged like Fenris? At the very least it shouldn't trigger if I'm in a romance with someone else.

[BunnyisCthulhu]

@Thief-of-Hearts: I get the lines even when a committed romance with Fenris/Isabela, though I think aggressive Hawke makes it very clear what she's implying to Bethany when she says "Back. Off."

EDIT: Sadly due to the fact that I've only got post save games for the Anders romance (in which I've told Seb to shove it) and I've never done the Merrill romance, I can't confirm whether f!Hawke tells Bethany to back off in those scenarios.

I can add though that I did flirt shamelessly with Sebastian throughout the whole game on every playthrough and the only time he has objected to it was when I was romancing Anders, which I found strange. He doesn't seem to acknowledge Fenris or Isabela.

Modifié par Ninalupa, 02 août 2011 - 10:50 .

[Giggles_Manically]

http://cloud.steampo...D6A606A9BD78B3/

Once you know what you are doing it so easy to Rival Sebastian I mean Night Terrors, Repentance, His gift quest, His Questioning Belief quest, then killing off Javaris.

I far prefer the verbal arse kicking Hawke gives him on the Rival path.

[john-in-france]

Judy-In-France:

I think the whole take on the end game lines with Sebastian depends on your own play style as to whether it rubs you up the wrong way.

I personally think that Sebastian would act like that in his grief. He did so when his family was murdered and Elthina was no less dear to him. Why would anyone even imagine that Sebastian wouldn't kill anyone who threatened or murdered one of his own? To me that is one of the things that I admire about him.

I like Friendmanced Seb better than the Rivalmanced Seb. Why?

FSeb: Look at the ability section on Seb, wings mean that he defends both of you. He does have feelings for you (not your future position), he is a man of high moral principles and he is not afraid to fight for what he believes in. The Chantry did make him a better man. In the finale conflict with Meredith, he was at my side and fighting with that damn tiny knife when I got surrounded by bronze statues. The wedding (whether chaste or celibate) is acknowledged in Legacy. I would pay for a DLC that repaired the Prince romance to equal the others in terms of scenes!

RSeb: Allure (Repentance Desire Demon) says most of it, she is not interested in Hawke until Hawke can influence two cities (shadows of things to come), she plays on Sebastians desire to rule. In his ability section the Rivalled logo denotes that he doen't give a damn about Hawke, just becoming the Prince. An arranged political marriage...ackkk. Worse, in the final conflict, no Prince at my back. I see the Rivalled Sebastian as a return to his older, wilder ways. Good for sex maybe, but not the man I'd want to marry! In Legacy he flirts shamefully with Bethany, another personal ick of mine.

Good to know that the kiss comment was a troll. I thought that I'd missed smoochies in Legacy...

I'm sure that many Rivalmancers will not agree with my assessment, that is ok, we all have different takes on the matter, and it is all good fodder

When all is said and done, I'm still a Seb fan!

I'd hate to have been a Fenris fan to have played Legacy and found out that during the gap years he'd been sleeping with Isabela...eeewwwww.

Modifié par john-in-france, 02 août 2011 - 01:46 .

[syllogi]

It looks like Sebastian flirts with Bethany and any Female Hawke will interrupt, rivalry or not, as long as you're not in a friendmance. Rivalry doesn't lead to anything, at least as far as Legacy is concerned.

So I think my single Kyla Hawke will just find a nice, stable beet farmer sometime after the end of the game, and settle down. She doesn't need a prince.

[john-in-france]

Chylise said: I'm just happy that the romance was acknowledged.  I like the idea of husband and wife tearing it up on the battlefield.


Me too! I was very happy that the watch your back feature seemed to work better in Legacy, so even more Sebastian fighting at my side with that knife...I wonder if we'll ever see dual weapon Seb?

[Nhadalie]

I adore the idea of Hawke corrupting Sebastien, because I think his ideas in a friend romance are a little ridiculous. "What? You want me to take the same vows in the Chantry as you? Are you nuts?" Granted, Leliana didn't take any actual vows. But even she didn't go that far. And Sebastien preaches less than she did.(Which I actually like about him. Preaching is irritating. But inquiring, and making suggestions instead? That's clever.)

I don't like how it's all or nothing with Sebastien. At least with the other companions, you can disagree with them, and still make a logical argument in many cases. But you either do what he wants you to, or he leaves and vows vengence on you. I think that's a lot of what irritates people about him, especially in the Anders case. I would've loved a conversation option to appeal to Sebastien's honor and faith to keep him as a companion without killing Anders. Because really, Anders dying isn't justice. Anders being forced to live with the fact that he murdered innocent people, and destroyed the chantry is. Dying is the easy way out, living, suffering, and repenting is the hard way.


I think logically Sebastien would understand such an argument, and perhaps return in a friendship romance/friendship. But Elthina even said that Sebastien was easily swayed by his passions, and that was why she refused to take him back wholly. I think that implies that Sebastien won't always stick to his "chaste marriage" with Hawke, and that eventually we'll get more out of him.

I do have to admit that I wasn't a big fan of him until my current play through, and when I heard his banters from Legacy with a romance. I've been taking him with me a lot more this play through, and I'm planning a friendmance with him in the future. I can see the appeal.

[R2s Muse]

TeenZombie wrote...
It looks like Sebastian flirts with Bethany and any Female Hawke will interrupt, rivalry or not, as long as you're not in a friendmance. Rivalry doesn't lead to anything, at least as far as Legacy is concerned.

Oh man, this is just so depressing. It was bad enough that my rivalmance mage got a whole lotta nothin from Carver or anyone that I was even interested in Sebastian. Now, he flirts with Bethany no matter what??  Jeesh. I hadn't really seen the rivalmance as less romantic than the weird chaste  marriage idea... until now. Bummer. I gotta hope that's a bug.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 02 août 2011 - 02:40 .

[john-in-france]

Nhadalie wrote...

 I would've loved a conversation option to appeal to Sebastien's honor and faith to keep him as a companion without killing Anders. Because really, Anders dying isn't justice. Anders being forced to live with the fact that he murdered innocent people, and destroyed the chantry is. Dying is the easy way out, living, suffering, and repenting is the hard way.

The assumption here of course is that Anders actually gave a damn...they weren't mages, so does he? Really? I've always thought that Anders/Justice were going insane myself.

I have to admit that when Sebastian asked what I would have done if he'd been in the Chantry at that moment in time when it went kablooey, pretty much cleared my Hawkes head. If he'd been in the Chantry when that happened, I would have come down those steps like the vengeance of Andraste, and Anders head would have rolled onto the street, no talking, no regrets....

Modifié par john-in-france, 02 août 2011 - 03:00 .

[SurelyForth]

john-in-france wrote...


The assumption here of course is that Anders actually gave a damn...they weren't mages, so does he? Really? I've always thought that Anders/Justice were going insane myself.

Seeing how he's rocking back and forth and ready to die for what he's done rather than being all *shrug* indicates that he does give a damn.

Also, the refugees he treated weren't mages, and he dedicated most of his time to  them.

Also, also...to make this on topic- I am a massive Anders fangirl, but I completely understand why he freaks out at the end of the game. I wish that he could be reasoned with because I'm probably never going to murder-knife Anders (if he dies, it will be defending the mages), but it's almost refreshing that he has an honest-to-goodness line he will not cross. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 août 2011 - 03:11 .

[syllogi]

Personally, I see killing Anders after the Chantry goes boom as a mercy killing, he is completely prepared to die for what he has done, and if you rival him, he infers that he will probably commit suicide after this is all over, even if you spare him, because he knows that merging with Justice was a mistake. So, while it breaks my heart, I can pull out the murder knife on him without bawling and loading a previous save. As seen in Dissent, Anders is at the point where he is capable of killing innocents in cold blood, and even Hawke's influence can no longer help prevent this.

I think Sebastian's refusal to stay in the party with Anders is understandable and honorable. This is Sebastian's crisis point, and like Alistair in DA:O, even if some people hate him for leaving when Loghain is recruited, it's who he is as a character, and not even the infallible player character can change that. I like having characters like that around, even if I don't love them.

Personally, even knowing that there's no real content for a rivalry relationship with Sebastian doesn't stop me from choosing to go that route. I'm a weirdo who likes characters who disagree with my Hawke, so for instance, I really enjoy rivalry with Fenris even when I'm not romancing him, and Carver is my preferred sibling. I see my Hawke as not being enamored with the Chantry, because of her upbringing, so she's not going to agree with many things that Sebastian says. It doesn't mean she doesn't respect his views, but she doesn't share them.

Doesn't mean I don't see the appeal of the friendship route. My childhood obsession with medieval figures like Eleanor of Aquitaine made me swoon for the idea of courtly love. It's still a guilty pleasure of mine.

[Nhadalie]

john-in-france wrote...

The assumption here of course is that Anders actually gave a damn...they weren't mages, so does he? Really? I've always thought that Anders/Justice were going insane myself.

I have to admit that when Sebastian asked what I would have done if he'd been in the Chantry at that moment in time when it went kablooey, pretty much cleared my Hawkes head. If he'd been in the Chantry when that happened, I would have come down those steps like the vengeance of Andraste, and Anders head would have rolled onto the street, no talking, no regrets....

Regardless of them not being mages, they would have deserved justice. Anders has some rather interesting banters with Isabela that proves that he believes everyone deserves justice.

And he goes into Act 3 under the belief that he will die, as shown by the fact that he gives up his posessions to friends. He wants to die after blowing up the Chantry. He knows it was injust, but he doesn't see any just ways to free mages anymore.

Perhaps they were going insane. Perhaps not. I don't believe Anders is a lost cause however, and I don't believe killing him would be Justice. My Hawkes will be dragging Anders off to repent post DA2, even the ones who romanced him. I think if anything, his actions will make him see that he has to find some way to control himself, and Justice. Perhaps it may even make Justice/Anders realize that true justice isn't possible.

Honestly, I don't see how Sebastien being there or not makes a difference. He wasn't. The fact that he could've been makes it more personal, and emotional. But that doesn't change my argument any. I wouldn't kill Anders even if Sebby had been in the Chantry at the time. Why? Because I want the bastard to suffer with the knowledge that in his quest for justice, he commited a grave injustice. Killing Anders lets him off too easy, and I most likely will never do it.

[john-in-france]

R2s Muse wrote...

 I hadn't really seen the rivalmance as less romantic than the weird chaste  marriage idea... until now. Bummer. I gotta hope that's a bug.

Judy-In-France:

Back to chaste vs celibate again...

Anyway my research on the medieval take on chaste marriage continues since DA2 is using a medieval model, and if you are not put off by some religion (not preachy) in the mix, a very lovely modern description of what chaste sex is can be found here: http://www.ourgarden...g/chastity.html , best bit starts around third of the way down. I sh*t you not! It actually sounds very romantic...

Modifié par john-in-france, 02 août 2011 - 03:22 .

[john-in-france]

Nhadalie wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

The assumption here of course is that Anders actually gave a damn...they weren't mages, so does he? Really? I've always thought that Anders/Justice were going insane myself.

I have to admit that when Sebastian asked what I would have done if he'd been in the Chantry at that moment in time when it went kablooey, pretty much cleared my Hawkes head. If he'd been in the Chantry when that happened, I would have come down those steps like the vengeance of Andraste, and Anders head would have rolled onto the street, no talking, no regrets....

Regardless of them not being mages, they would have deserved justice. Anders has some rather interesting banters with Isabela that proves that he believes everyone deserves justice.

And he goes into Act 3 under the belief that he will die, as shown by the fact that he gives up his posessions to friends. He wants to die after blowing up the Chantry. He knows it was injust, but he doesn't see any just ways to free mages anymore.

Perhaps they were going insane. Perhaps not. I don't believe Anders is a lost cause however, and I don't believe killing him would be Justice. My Hawkes will be dragging Anders off to repent post DA2, even the ones who romanced him. I think if anything, his actions will make him see that he has to find some way to control himself, and Justice. Perhaps it may even make Justice/Anders realize that true justice isn't possible.

Honestly, I don't see how Sebastien being there or not makes a difference. He wasn't. The fact that he could've been makes it more personal, and emotional. But that doesn't change my argument any. I wouldn't kill Anders even if Sebby had been in the Chantry at the time. Why? Because I want the bastard to suffer with the knowledge that in his quest for justice, he commited a grave injustice. Killing Anders lets him off too easy, and I most likely will never do it.

Either decision ends up with the same mage vs templar war. I think there is no totally 'good' choice, DA2 is many shades of grey! One death (Anders) vs many in a Kirkwall Exalted March (Sebastian).

That's ok, we have different basic personalities (real life), therefore different Hawkes, and internal storylines.
I love reading about F!Hawkes that do in fact let Anders live, they are obviously more merciful than mine. 

My Hawke that romanced Anders did kill him as well, for betraying her trust and an act of pure terrorism...if he'd blown up Merediths office on the other hand, I'd have given him a high 5!

[john-in-france]

SurelyForth wrote...

Seeing how he's rocking back and forth and ready to die for what he's done rather than being all *shrug* indicates that he does give a damn.

Also, the refugees he treated weren't mages, and he dedicated most of his time to  them.

Also, also...to make this on topic- I am a massive Anders fangirl, but I completely understand why he freaks out at the end of the game. I wish that he could be reasoned with because I'm probably never going to murder-knife Anders (if he dies, it will be defending the mages), but it's almost refreshing that he has an honest-to-goodness line he will not cross. 

[\\quote]

Rocking backwards and forwards is common in mentally ill patients.

Yes he did treat refugees, the only reason that my Hawke, Fenris and Sebastian did not hand him over to the Templar (yes, telling Cullen about Anders is a game option). Mages should serve man, not be locked in a circle. I support mage healing clinics. I support greater mage freedom in general. Bethany 'my' sister was a healer, so was Malcolm Hawke.

Anders from Awakening!

Anders/Justice is just too freaky. I think that he actually wants you to kill him and create a martyr for the Mage cause, just as he created a martyr for the Templar cause for murdering Elthina.

Just for clarity here, I spent the first half of my (real) life as a soldier, and the second half as a healer, I'm over the hill so to speak, not a teenager.

Modifié par john-in-france, 02 août 2011 - 03:58 .

[Nhadalie]

john-in-france wrote...


Either decision ends up with the same mage vs templar war. I think there is no totally 'good' choice, DA2 is many shades of grey! One death (Anders) vs many in a Kirkwall Exalted March (Sebastian).

That's ok, we have different basic personalities (real life), therefore different Hawkes, and internal storylines.
I love reading about F!Hawkes that do in fact let Anders live, they are obviously more merciful than mine. 

My Hawke that romanced Anders did kill him as well, for betraying her trust and an act of pure terrorism...if he'd blown up Merediths office on the other hand, I'd have given him a high 5!

Exactly. That's the fun part of DA2.

I'm not saying that Anders doesn't deserve to die for it. But rather that I'm quite vinidictive, and I'm going to make him realize what an awful idea it was. Especially since, we all know it wasn't necessary in the slightest. Meredith would've lost it even more as time went by, and eventually went down a similar path without Anders blowing up the Chantry. If he had been patient, it would've led to a path that didn't harm the mage cause at all.


I'm hoping that whenever they release the rest of Sebastien's story, he comes to realize that Hawke may not have been condoning Anders's actions. But rather making him pay in a different sort of way. Or that we at least get some closure with Sebastien if we take that path.


I am definitely killing off Anders when I do romance Sebastien. But I'll bawl my eyes out when that time comes. I'm really curious how they'll handle the dynamics in future games, or dlc if the next games don't involve any of the same characters. It definitely won't be easy.

[john-in-france]

Nhadalie wrote...

But rather that I'm quite vinidictive, and I'm going to make him realize what an awful idea it was. Especially since, we all know it wasn't necessary in the slightest. Meredith would've lost it even more as time went by, and eventually went down a similar path without Anders blowing up the Chantry. If he had been patient, it would've led to a path that didn't harm the mage cause at all.

Ahhh, yes, even nastier than I am, but only of course if I could rub his nose in his offense continually, every single day...

I really don't know what they'll do about Sebastian, maybe they will let him cool down so to speak, for those that chose the 'let Anders live' route. He does come across as vengeful though, so I really can't see it being in character, but who knows? They have actually said that if you do not kill Anders, the romance is not completed.

[Nhadalie]

john-in-france wrote...

Ahhh, yes, even nastier than I am, but only of course if I could rub his nose in his offense continually, every single day...

I really don't know what they'll do about Sebastian, maybe they will let him cool down so to speak, for those that chose the 'let Anders live' route. He does come across as vengeful though, so I really can't see it being in character, but who knows? They have actually said that if you do not kill Anders, the romance is not completed.

I'm not sure if I'd rub his face in it every day. But my Hawke that romanced him is definitely going to make him grovel for betraying her trust at least, and she'll be dragging him into doing all sorts of selfless things to repent for it.


In a friendship, I can see them making Sebastien cool down a little. I can imagine him eventually thinking "How would Elthina act in a similar situation? Would she murder him in return? Or would she make him repent?"

As a rival.. I can't imagine Sebastien letting anything stop him from killing Anders. I think he'd follow through with his threat. But then again, Hawke doesn't stay in Kirkwall if he/she sides with the mages. I think Sebby would do everything he could to get at Anders.

I think the whole situation would depend on how you've encouraged him to act. I think the dynamics of taking back Starkhaven with Anders in the party would be fantastic though. Lots of potential for hate-filled banters.

[Chignon]

TeenZombie wrote...

Rivalry doesn't lead to anything, at least as far as Legacy is concerned.

Why bother to make two different paths if one of them gets nothing in terms of content?