2724 réponses à ce sujet

[Chignon]

john-in-france wrote...

There is a rather nasty Seb bashing thread going on at the moment 'Sebastian how I hate you....' I've left a little comment there. Seb needs some support!

You shouldn't bother. If someone creates a thread or writes a post to bash one thing or another, they hardly ever can be reasoned with.



-



Once upon a time...4 by Enife

[nitefyre410]

Chignon wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

There is a rather nasty Seb bashing thread going on at the moment 'Sebastian how I hate you....' I've left a little comment there. Seb needs some support!

You shouldn't bother. If someone creates a thread or writes a post to bash one thing or another, they hardly ever can be reasoned with.



-
*Snip*


Once upon a time...4 by Enife

 

That Pic of  young   Sebastian and his Grandfather... AMAZING.   I had my doubts about  him after all that I heard but after I played his first mission and he talked about his Grandfather... he won me over.

[Chignon]

nitefyre410 wrote...

I had my doubts about  him after all that I heard but after I played his first mission and he talked about his Grandfather... he won me over.

It's my favourite conversation with him as well.

[nitefyre410]

Chignon wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

I had my doubts about  him after all that I heard but after I played his first mission and he talked about his Grandfather... he won me over.

It's my favourite conversation with him as well.

its a good piece of voice acting   it was emotional but not sappy.  

[rak72]

Thats a really nice pic up there.

The "he's too preachy" argument really infuriates me. It totally shows that people aren't actually listening to what he says, just projecting their own prejudices when they hear the word "maker". He never tells anyone they will burn in hell if they don't convert, he simply states what the maker means to him and lets the others make up their own mind. I don't know how you can take offense to that and not to the horrible things Anders says about Avalene's dead husband.

I'm not particularly religious - I hide like everyone else when I see Jehovah's witnesses coming up the driveway. But I find the anti-religious people to be more zealous and pushy than the religious. It's extremely hypocritical. If you want to worship the maker, great. If you want to worship a jade carving of Elvis, super. It will all get sorted out in the end.

[Nhadalie]

I never thought Sebastian was horribly preachy. Yeah, he's religious, and he makes it obvious. But so what? It's not like he's running around trying to convert everyone.

I thought Leliana was so much more preachy in Origins than Sebby is. And due to the influence system being different, you can't really argue with her about it. When she came up to me in Lothering stating that the Maker told her to join us, I wanted to run away in the other direction.


I'm not religious in the slightest, and I still like Sebastian as a character. I'm not even all that fond of the Chantry in the DA universe.

I think a lot of the people who whine about him being too religious don't actually take him around with them that much. Most of his banters struck me as more philosophical than "Convert you heathens!". He does say some aggravating things, such as his conversation with Fenris about turning in Merrill/Anders. But honestly, all of them have aggravating moments. I'll admit that I didn't really like Sebby until I started taking him everywhere with me.

[Jackie Dangerfist]

Finished some fanart of my favorite archer ever.
I'll just leave this here:


Link: http://mikah1337.dev...t.com/#/d411mkh

Modifié par Jackie Dangerfist, 04 août 2011 - 01:36 .

[rak72]

^^ oh Maker! Hot!

[SurelyForth]

rak72 wrote...

Thats a really nice pic up there.

The "he's too preachy" argument really infuriates me. It totally shows that people aren't actually listening to what he says, just projecting their own prejudices when they hear the word "maker". He never tells anyone they will burn in hell if they don't convert, he simply states what the maker means to him and lets the others make up their own mind. I don't know how you can take offense to that and not to the horrible things Anders says about Avalene's dead husband.

I'm not particularly religious - I hide like everyone else when I see Jehovah's witnesses coming up the driveway. But I find the anti-religious people to be more zealous and pushy than the religious. It's extremely hypocritical. If you want to worship the maker, great. If you want to worship a jade carving of Elvis, super. It will all get sorted out in the end.

I don't think he's too preachy, but the way he frames his beliefs is infuriating and you can't turn around and be like "****! Me being a refugee and mages being taken against their will and locked up in a prison is NOT the same as a priesthood that you can and do walk away from. Also! Fenris, stop listening to him. That slave boy being drained for the Magisters' amusement was not a sign from the Maker for you to get free or what the **** ever, it was horrible people being horrible.  And, seriously, if the Maker is willing to sacrifice people willy nilly to inspire you, then why would you even want to believe in that ****?"

So it's not his preachiness, it's his damnable insistence on saying stupid things.

[rak72]

Suppose there is a family that lost a child to a horrible murder. They are coping with it through there belief that the child served God purpose here on earth and is now taken to a better place. Maybe they will even be inspired by the tragedy to enact some sort of legislation that will protect children in the future. Maybe one of those children saved by this legislation will find the cure for cancer one day. Are you really going to say to those grieving parents, "stop with your dopey philosophizing, it was just horrible people being horrible". And who are we to say that the child isn't in a better place now and perhaps his purpose in his short life was to protect the future finder of a cure for cancer. People have their own ways of coping with life's hardships. I think we can all benefit from listening to other's points of views. If there is something you can take from it, great. If not, shrug and move on. No one has the right to tell someone there way of thinking is right or wrong if they are not hurting anyone else. And Sebastian's view of the chantry was not the political oppressive view. It was the spiritual, finding solace in a higher being view.

Edit to add

Perhaps by taking solice in Sebastian's council, Fenris was better able to come to terms with what happened and  move past the anger.  Wether or not you believe what Sebatian had to say was a load of crap,  the important thing is if it gave Fenris comfort.  Maybe Seb's councel was enough to keep Fenris from blowing up a circle of magi full of innocent magi?

Modifié par rak72, 04 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

SurelyForth wrote...

I don't think he's too preachy, but the way he frames his beliefs is infuriating and you can't turn around and be like "****! Me being a refugee and mages being taken against their will and locked up in a prison is NOT the same as a priesthood that you can and do walk away from. Also! Fenris, stop listening to him. That slave boy being drained for the Magisters' amusement was not a sign from the Maker for you to get free or what the **** ever, it was horrible people being horrible.  And, seriously, if the Maker is willing to sacrifice people willy nilly to inspire you, then why would you even want to believe in that ****?"

So it's not his preachiness, it's his damnable insistence on saying stupid things.

I don't think Sebastian was implying the Maker killed a ton of people just so Fenris would be inspired. Danarius would have killed the boy regardless (free will and all that). Rather that the Maker gave Fenris the inspiration afterwards so that good would come of it. I don't think what he said was stupid. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I don't think it's fair to say that he 'insists on saying stupid things'.

I think Sebastian's problem is that he can't accept that bad things happen to good people. He needs it to mean something, so he's constantly looking for a 'bright side'. However, it's impossible for him to detach himself enough to consider what good might come from something if it's a situation affects him personally, such as his family being murdered or the Chantry exploding, which is why those acts shake is faith so much. It makes him a hypocrite, but no more so than anyone else in the game.

And Hawke being driven from his/her home by darkspawn into indentured servitude in Kirkwall is the same as Sebastian being driven from his home by his parents to service of the Kirkwall Chantry. He was saying that everyone is a victim of circumstance in some way, not that every situation he named was exactly the same in terms of severity. He was calling Anders out on his 'poor mages and only mages' attitude, not saying 'everyone is exactly as bad off as everyone else'. Anders has a habit of not considering the poor templars like Keran who have nowhere else to go and families to feed and then get addicted to lyrium so they can't leave the order. To him they're just nameless ghouls in uniform picking on the poor, forever victims that are the mages.

[rak72]

Well said, Aris

[SilentK]

Hmmm.... I wouldn't say perhaps preachy but it can get to be a little too much sometimes. When I'm not playing a FemHawke that romances him I can get a little tired of him after a while, somehow the Hawke I'm playing is influencing how I feel about all the companions. I like him and I look forward to the continuation of my Hawke's rivalmance with him.

There will always be people that do not like your favorite character for one reason or another. Sebastian was perhaps not written to be loved by one and all, but he is all the more special for those that care for him. As long as no one is trolling in this thread there really is no reason to do anything with it.

[Eranelle]

Just out of curiousity and thinking out loud; are all the ones that like Sebastian to come along are not the religious types and the ones that hates him are those who feels and think they're religious? Because I'm not religious and I really like Sebastian. My ex-boyfriend is very religious and my ex hated Sebastian; even got jealous when I started drawing Sebastian a lot.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm not going to argue that Anders' single-mindedness isn't frustrating. If I were my Warden, I'd tell Anders "I once knew a Templar who had as little choice in his lot as you did in yours. He joined the Wardens to escape, too." When it comes to personal misfortunes, Brosca would laugh in his face, as would Tabris. Mahariel would smile sadly at him and shake her head at the general follies of human society. Yes, everyone is afflicted by hardships, some more than others.

But the tone of Seb's voice when he goes into his little "none of us are free" rant is maddeningly condescending. Even if you view that dialogue as kindly as you can, even if you don't think he's declaring all their respective misfortunes to be equivalent, it sounds like he is. Anders would have given anything to be as free as Sebastian, or Hawke and... in fact... did; first accepting the Warden's bargain, and then later sacrificing his very humanity.

I like Sebastian, and I want to like him more, but the boy needs to learn to take a critical eye to his own value system. So does Anders, sure... but Anders is a bag of broken things, driven insane by the trap that is his life, steadily breaking more and throwing himself onto the pyre that is his cause because that's the only way out. I can forgive him some of his excesses because of that damage. Sebastian is a completely functional human being whose main problem is a surfeit of choices. I'm not upset with Seb because he's a terrible person, but rather because he's so much less than he can be, and what's holding him back seems so... surmountable. I kept hoping that Sebastian would be the thing I think the narrative needs: a devout Andrastean who can see the flaws in the modern Chantry and work to change them from within. Instead, I get just another apologist, and it's maddening. My Hawke was a devout Andrastean going in to the game and wanted nothing more in the world than to turn the Chantry and the Templar order into the force for unambiguous good she believed it had the potential to be. By the middle of Act 3 she's convinced that such a thing is impossible, and part of that is because of Sebastian... and Elthina. If he represents the best the Chantry has to offer, the purest and most good, and he can't even tell that there's something WRONG in Kirkwall, then what hope is there for white Andrasteism?

Love Anders or hate him, I don't understand how you can look at what he is and not see a victim of a broken system. If you see him as a monster, he wasn't one when he went into the circle. Even if he's irredeemable now, the circumstances that broke a man that badly need to be changed. That's what I would like to have heard Seb express, even if it had been with contempt... some level of admission that not every thing the Chantry has ever done is automatically correct, that some serious problems might exist within.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from poor Sebastian. I just want to meet one non-mage devout Andrastean (other than my Hawke) who displays a capability for critical thinking while maintaining their faith. Is that too much to ask?

[ThatDancingTurian]

Eranelle wrote...

Just out of curiousity and thinking out loud; are all the ones that like Sebastian to come along are not the religious types and the ones that hates him are those who feels and think they're religious? Because I'm not religious and I really like Sebastian. My ex-boyfriend is very religious and my ex hated Sebastian; even got jealous when I started drawing Sebastian a lot.

I don't think that's the case. I keep seeing people who hate Sebastian voicing a dislike of religion in general and a lot of them have projected their feelings on real-world, modern-day religion onto Sebastian and the Chantry. Others can be not religious themselves but still have no problem with him.

Personally, I would call myself religious, though not particularly devout. As for Sebastian, I like him as a person. I think the fact that I've known a few of those pious, self-righteous types personally only makes me appreciate him more for not being so abrasive about his beliefs.

[Eranelle]

So, it's something that triggers the person's belief on being self-righteous then and why they feel the hate on Sebastian.

[ThatDancingTurian]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not going to argue that Anders' single-mindedness isn't frustrating. If I were my Warden, I'd tell Anders "I once knew a Templar who had as little choice in his lot as you did in yours. He joined the Wardens to escape, too." When it comes to personal misfortunes, Brosca would laugh in his face, as would Tabris. Mahariel would smile sadly at him and shake her head at the general follies of human society. Yes, everyone is afflicted by hardships, some more than others.

But the tone of Seb's voice when he goes into his little "none of us are free" rant is maddeningly condescending. Even if you view that dialogue as kindly as you can, even if you don't think he's declaring all their respective misfortunes to be equivalent, it sounds like he is. Anders would have given anything to be as free as Sebastian, or Hawke and... in fact... did; first accepting the Warden's bargain, and then later sacrificing his very humanity.

I like Sebastian, and I want to like him more, but the boy needs to learn to take a critical eye to his own value system. So does Anders, sure... but Anders is a bag of broken things, driven insane by the trap that is his life, steadily breaking more and throwing himself onto the pyre that is his cause because that's the only way out. I can forgive him some of his excesses because of that damage. Sebastian is a completely functional human being whose main problem is a surfeit of choices. I'm not upset with Seb because he's a terrible person, but rather because he's so much less than he can be, and what's holding him back seems so... surmountable. I kept hoping that Sebastian would be the thing I think the narrative needs: a devout Andrastean who can see the flaws in the modern Chantry and work to change them from within. Instead, I get just another apologist, and it's maddening. My Hawke was a devout Andrastean going in to the game and wanted nothing more in the world than to turn the Chantry and the Templar order into the force for unambiguous good she believed it had the potential to be. By the middle of Act 3 she's convinced that such a thing is impossible, and part of that is because of Sebastian... and Elthina. If he represents the best the Chantry has to offer, the purest and most good, and he can't even tell that there's something WRONG in Kirkwall, then what hope is there for white Andrasteism?

Love Anders or hate him, I don't understand how you can look at what he is and not see a victim of a broken system. If you see him as a monster, he wasn't one when he went into the circle. Even if he's irredeemable now, the circumstances that broke a man that badly need to be changed. That's what I would like to have heard Seb express, even if it had been with contempt... some level of admission that not every thing the Chantry has ever done is automatically correct, that some serious problems might exist within.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from poor Sebastian. I just want to meet one non-mage devout Andrastean (other than my Hawke) who displays a capability for critical thinking while maintaining their faith. Is that too much to ask?

I didn't hear any 'tone' in that line, personally. Sebastian's VA does that over-emphasizing thing a lot and sometimes on completely meaningless lines, so I don't think there was any special hidden attitude there.

As for changing the Chantry from within, it's kind of hard to be devout and at the same time deny the absolute, 'Maker-given' power the Chantry leaders possess. To try and change the Chantry is to deny the teachings of the Chantry, which is something a devout follower would never do. For someone whose faith is strong enough for them to dedicate their entire life to it, most of the time they've already lost the ability to form objective criticism.

And the thing is, it's hard to change things from the inside when you're on the level of common Chantry brother. Where he stands, he's doing all the right things. The corruption comes from the higher ups, not the sisters and brothers of the faith devoted to charity and kindness. He could argue with Elthina, but that didn't help Hawke, did it? It didn't help Orsino or anyone else.

As for Anders, I don't want to get off-subject with a rant. I'll just say, the Ferelden Circle was a cakewalk in comparison to Kirkwall. Anders had it good.There's always someone who had a tougher life, but Anders acts like his was the absolute worst. That is the problem with him. And it wasn't the Circle that made him a monster, he did that when he chucked his 'get out of jail free' card with the Wardens to become possessed, and subsequently lost himself to the madness of a singular, unrelenting idea.

EDIT: Just adding, I don't really think the narrative needed a character to point out the Chantry's flaws. Most everyone seems to hate it as is. I think the whole point of Sebastian was to highlight that there is a good side to the Chantry, but some people seem to think he can't be good unless he distances himself from the Chantry, because 'the Chantry is bad'.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 04 août 2011 - 07:01 .

[john-in-france]

As said before, we hear tones from people based on our own viewpoints. I'm not particularly religious, nor is my wife Judy-In-France who also posts with this avatar. We both like Sebastian, and see what he is trying to achieve, he even says to Isabela that you lead by example. He doesn't come across as preachy to us, just stating his beliefs and offering comfort/advice to the other companions.

He is a good man, short changed by Bioware cutting his storyline. I'd love to see Sebastian fleshed out more and I don't mean in the flesh...though Judy thinks he is a good LI and the only sane man except for Varric and Cullen.

I don't like zealots of any type, they are too dangerous, that is why I don't particularly like DA2 Anders, though I did like him pre-Justice in Awakenings.

We shall agree to disagree on the hate Sebastian front, and all the projection that you seem to be doing to make Anders/Justice seem right, regardless of what he actually does and says.
We have different gameplay obviously. Live with it.

Personally I'd like to meet a sane Mage who isn't a Hawke, I had great hopes for Orsino until it turned out that he'd sheltered the Blood Mage that murdered Hawkes mother, and was in fact a Maleficar himself. I have played both Templar and Mage endings, several times.

[john-in-france]

Jackie Dangerfist wrote...

Finished some fanart of my favorite archer ever.
I'll just leave this here:


Link: http://mikah1337.dev...t.com/#/d411mkh

Judy-In-France:
Makers breath!

So let's see more Sebastian love on the thread...Screenshot from Legacy, because I never get tired of Seb shots...that sounded a wee bit dirty didn't it!



I wasn't sure whether I liked this one, but there is a sadness in the eyes...

I wasn't around much yesterday, though I believe that John did say a few things. I think Sebastian would use the chant:

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.
      Chant of Light, Tranfigurations 1.

Neither side in the Templar vs Mages conflict is right, but compromise has been lost.

[john-in-france]

Chignon wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

There is a rather nasty Seb bashing thread going on at the moment 'Sebastian how I hate you....' I've left a little comment there. Seb needs some support!

You shouldn't bother. If someone creates a thread or writes a post to bash one thing or another, they hardly ever can be reasoned with.



-



Once upon a time...4 by Enife

Judy-In-France:

Nice! In a movie I'd cast Sean Connery as Sebastians grandfather

Modifié par john-in-france, 04 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[trobbins777]

Ok I don't play f*hawke but i have to admit that i 'dawwwed at Sebastian flirting with Bethany. Seriously I can't imagine a cuter couple.

uhh.... other than Sebastian and Hawke

[Chignon]

Great posts on this page, Aris. You made several good points.

-

My favourite comic:


Roll those R's by *seisei

[KyleTheArtist]

Eranelle wrote...

Just out of curiousity and thinking out loud; are all the ones that like Sebastian to come along are not the religious types and the ones that hates him are those who feels and think they're religious? Because I'm not religious and I really like Sebastian. My ex-boyfriend is very religious and my ex hated Sebastian; even got jealous when I started drawing Sebastian a lot.

I do not have any specific religion, I rather beleive in small aspects of each. Like I beleive in reincarnation, but I do not follow budism. And I freaking love Sebastian. he's just ngggh! XD So I don't think has anything to do with religion XD

[john-in-france]

Chignon:

Love the comic, from DeviantArt? I've never seen that one before

Wild Boy Seb story: The Secret Inner Life of Sebastian Vael. Kkmeme for those who like friendfiction, not mine sadly, but I've been enjoying the posts and thought that some of you would too. Rated 18 and older only. http://dragonage-kin...35771#t19635771

Judy. (Because it now looks like I need to sign my posts, kicks John in ankles)