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[CulturalGeekGirl]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
I didn't hear any 'tone' in that line, personally. Sebastian's VA does that over-emphasizing thing a lot and sometimes on completely meaningless lines, so I don't think there was any special hidden attitude there.

As for changing the Chantry from within, it's kind of hard to be devout and at the same time deny the absolute, 'Maker-given' power the Chantry leaders possess. To try and change the Chantry is to deny the teachings of the Chantry, which is something a devout follower would never do. For someone whose faith is strong enough for them to dedicate their entire life to it, most of the time they've already lost the ability to form objective criticism.

And the thing is, it's hard to change things from the inside when you're on the level of common Chantry brother. Where he stands, he's doing all the right things. The corruption comes from the higher ups, not the sisters and brothers of the faith devoted to charity and kindness. He could argue with Elthina, but that didn't help Hawke, did it? It didn't help Orsino or anyone else.

As for Anders, I don't want to get off-subject with a rant. I'll just say, the Ferelden Circle was a cakewalk in comparison to Kirkwall. Anders had it good.There's always someone who had a tougher life, but Anders acts like his was the absolute worst. That is the problem with him. And it wasn't the Circle that made him a monster, he did that when he chucked his 'get out of jail free' card with the Wardens to become possessed, and subsequently lost himself to the madness of a singular, unrelenting idea.

EDIT: Just adding, I don't really think the narrative needed a character to point out the Chantry's flaws. Most everyone seems to hate it as is. I think the whole point of Sebastian was to highlight that there is a good side to the Chantry, but some people seem to think he can't be good unless he distances himself from the Chantry, because 'the Chantry is bad'.

When Sebastian says "none of us are free" I can't see how you can interpret that as anything other than him saying that his lack of freedom is in some way comprable to Anders. And while that's something I'd agree with coming from, say, Alistair, I can't quite grok it coming from Seb. It seems to go too far, is all.

Devout followers can still want to change the system. Look at Martin Luther. He was spectacularly devout, but he still nailed that list to the church's doors. It's quite possible to be devout and still admit that some of the leaders of your religion may not be making the best policy decisions... because those people are human, and their failings in no way impugn the perfection of the maker. Small changes are made by the devout all the time... the idea of translating the Bible into English was once seen as dangerously heretical madness. The idea of female preachers, as well. Religions evolve, and they couldn't do so without the devout championing those changes from within. Also, if Elthina is as understanding and good as Sebastian seems to believe she is, if they're as close as he claims, wouldn't she be more likely to listen to him than to Hawke?

I'm not saying that we need another character to "point out the Chantry's flaws," rather, what I want is evidence that the Chantry is capable of positive progress. Maybe it isn't, though. Maybe that's the point of Sebastian... the Chantry is objectively not capable of any kind of change because, as you say, anyone who was willing to admit that anything the Chantry does is wrong isn't "truly devout." The Chantry may expel anyone who thinks that, for instance, mages deserve even a slight increase in rights as being insufficiently devout.

I'm also not saying "the Chantry is bad and you have to distance yourself from it to be good," rather I'm saying that any organization that cannot acknowledge wrongdoing within itself cannot possibly evolve. Hawke says during the Templar ending that the mages can now work for 'peaceful change,' but if the Chantry truly refuses to acknowledge that anything needs to be changed at all, then such peaceful change is impossible. Why would they change if every single person who is 'truly devout' enough to become part of the Chantry is expected to never question any of its actions?

The Wardens aren't a "get out of jail free" card. They're a "get out of jail in exchange for a short lifetime of nightmares and combat" card. According to the official Anders short story, Anders left because they sent a Templar to "watch" him even in the Wardens. It seems that the Templars had him separated from the rest of the Awakening crew, forced him to give away Pounce, and partnered him with a former Templar who despised him. It was only when this last chance at freedom, one that he had sacrificed so much for, ended in more Templar domination that he broke down and agreed to the merger. But of course, nobody on the Chantry side cares enough to ask him about that, or figure it out... they just say he decided to become an abomination, never questioning what pushed him to that decision. One thing we know for sure is this: mages make the worst decisions when they're cornered, desperate, and afraid. Isn't it in the interest of the Chantry to try to avoid putting them in those situations?

My favorite Sebastian Fic, emmav's Sign of the Maker, addresses all this. It portrays a Sebastian who is still just as devout, but who also acknowledges that maybe he has something to learn, (and don't worry, it's not Anders/Sebastian. The main focus of the story is Sebastian attempting to help Anders, trying to prevent the inevitable breakdown, though there's some incidental Hawke/Anders) 

As a peace offering, here's emmav's lovely Sebastian for top.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 août 2011 - 12:35 .

[john-in-france]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

When Sebastian says "none of us are free" I can't see how you can interpret that as anything other than him saying that his lack of freedom is in some way comprable to Anders. And while that's something I'd agree with coming from, say, Alistair, I can't quite grok it coming from Seb. It seems to go too far, is all.

Devout followers can still want to change the system. Look at Martin Luther. He was spectacularly devout, but he still nailed that list to the church's doors. It's quite possible to be devout and still admit that some of the leaders of your religion may not be making the best policy decisions... because those people are human, and their failings in no way impugn the perfection of the maker. Small changes are made by the devout all the time... the idea of translating the Bible into English was once seen as dangerously heretical madness. The idea of female preachers, as well. Religions evolve, and they couldn't do so without the devout championing those changes from within. Also, if Elthina is as understanding and good as Sebastian seems to believe she is, if they're as close as he claims, wouldn't she be more likely to listen to him than to Hawke?

I'm not saying that we need another character to "point out the Chantry's flaws," rather, what I want is evidence that the Chantry is capable of positive progress. Maybe it isn't, though. Maybe that's the point of Sebastian... the Chantry is objectively not capable of any kind of change because, as you say, anyone who was willing to admit that anything the Chantry does is wrong isn't "truly devout." The Chantry may expel anyone who thinks that, for instance, mages deserve even a slight increase in rights as being insufficiently devout.

I'm also not saying "the Chantry is bad and you have to distance yourself from it to be good," rather I'm saying that any organization that cannot acknowledge wrongdoing within itself cannot possibly evolve. Hawke says during the Templar ending that the mages can now work for 'peaceful change,' but if the Chantry truly refuses to acknowledge that anything needs to be changed at all, then such peaceful change is impossible. Why would they change if every single person who is 'truly devout' enough to become part of the Chantry is expected to never question any of its actions?

The Wardens aren't a "get out of jail free" card. They're a "get out of jail in exchange for a short lifetime of nightmares and combat" card. According to the official Anders short story, Anders left because they sent a Templar to "watch" him even in the Wardens. It seems that the Templars had him separated from the rest of the Awakening crew, forced him to give away Pounce, and partnered him with a former Templar who despised him. It was only when this last chance at freedom, one that he had sacrificed so much for, ended in more Templar domination that he broke down and agreed to the merger. But of course, nobody on the Chantry side cares enough to ask him about that, or figure it out... they just say he decided to become an abomination, never questioning what pushed him to that decision. One thing we know for sure is this: mages make the worst decisions when they're cornered, desperate, and afraid. Isn't it in the interest of the Chantry to try to avoid putting them in those situations?

My favorite Sebastian Fic, emmav's Sign of the Maker, addresses all this. It portrays a Sebastian who is still just as devout, but who also acknowledges that maybe he has something to learn, (and don't worry, it's not Anders/Sebastian. The main focus of the story is Sebastian attempting to help Anders, trying to prevent the inevitable breakdown, though there's some incidental Hawke/Anders) 

I liked than story, and no, I read it a few weeks back before you ask.

Personally I have to say that I think Sebastian is right, we are not free, not truly. We all have the baggage of our own pasts, beliefs (religious or spiritual), politics, and regrets. Perhaps that is one of the things that we can say that DA2 meant to share with us all. Anders and Fenris both display opposite scars on their personality, both hating each other because of what happened to them in the past.

The Chantry does have problems, mainly involving corruption in high places (I so want to kill Petrice myself.), so do the mages, namely demonic corruption of most mages met in DA2.

Cullen for instance is aware of Merediths slide into madness but needs her to overstep the mark so he can relieve her of command. He does stand up for what is right at the end, both to save the circle mages who surrendered, and side with Hawke. Thrask wants to help the mages, and we all know where that went.

Sadly Anders did not ask the circle what they wanted, he just delivered the big bang regardless (another game error, I would like to think that Anders could have been reasoned with by Hawke or Orsino). Orsino was not amused.

Sebastian however does approve of you talking to Elthina about the Chantrys flaws, both at the end of Dissent and middle of Offered and Lost. Being honest I often wonder if he was thinking about the Chantry when he talked about who has more influence, a brother of the faith or a Prince of Thedas. If you read the story of the Vael family and Starkhaven (in the game) you will notice that they have always been devout, and have a lot of influence over the Chantry. It is possible that Sebastian intends to sort things out from within, but back in Starkhaven. As a mere brother he has little influence over a female priesthood. In my Friendmance it sounded like he was headed back to Starkhaven anyway...

Sorry, but there is no glorious 'white' path through DA2, just many grey ones. All you can do is be true to your own Hawke/mindset.

Judy.

[rak72]

Anders really isn't going to get any sympathy from me because they sent a templar to the wardens and made him get rid of his cat. Being forced to work with someone we can't stand is a fact of life for most people. If he was keeping his nose clean and not cavorting with demons, why should he care if the templar dude was watching him from the next table in the cafeteria.

As far as the cat, Anders himself said the cat was almost ripped in half by a Genlock. I think it's very selfish and unfair of Anders to expose the cat to that kind of danger.

[SurelyForth]

rak72 wrote...

Anders really isn't going to get any sympathy from me because they sent a templar to the wardens and made him get rid of his cat. Being forced to work with someone we can't stand is a fact of life for most people. If he was keeping his nose clean and not cavorting with demons, why should he care if the templar dude was watching him from the next table in the cafeteria.

Except he wasn't just being eyed, he was being sent everywhere with this templar. He was being policed when nobody else was, just because he was a mage (and probably due to the incident with Rylock, which was not his fault). Why shouldn't you feel sympathy for someone being so singled out with no just cause? Would you be ok with being under constant surveillance despite the fact that it's explicitly against your rights as a citizen (or his as a Warden)? It's not about not being able to do bad things, it was never about that with him. It's about the fact that he will never be able to have anything close to a normal life, even within the parameters of the Wardens, simply because he is a mage.

As far as the cat, Anders himself said the cat was almost ripped in half by a Genlock. I think it's very selfish and unfair of Anders to expose the cat to that kind of danger.

Then they could have told him to leave it at the Keep. Instead, they made him get rid of him entirely. And I don't recall him saying Pounce was almost ripped in half by a genlock but that he smacked a genlock in the nose. I do remember now. <_<

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 août 2011 - 03:11 .

[john-in-france]

SurelyForth wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Anders really isn't going to get any sympathy from me because they sent a templar to the wardens and made him get rid of his cat. Being forced to work with someone we can't stand is a fact of life for most people. If he was keeping his nose clean and not cavorting with demons, why should he care if the templar dude was watching him from the next table in the cafeteria.

Except he wasn't just being eyed, he was being sent everywhere with this templar. He was being policed when nobody else was, just because he was a mage (and probably due to the incident with Rylock, which was not his fault). Why shouldn't you feel sympathy for someone being so singled out with no just cause? Would you be ok with being under constant surveillance despite the fact that it's explicitly against your rights as a citizen (or his as a Warden)? It's not about not being able to do bad things, it was never about that with him. It's about the fact that he will never be able to have anything close to a normal life, even within the parameters of the Wardens, simply because he is a mage.

As far as the cat, Anders himself said the cat was almost ripped in half by a Genlock. I think it's very selfish and unfair of Anders to expose the cat to that kind of danger.

Then they could have told him to leave it at the Keep. Instead, they made him get rid of him entirely. And I don't recall him saying Pounce was almost ripped in half by a genlock but that he smacked a genlock in the nose.

Would this not be more appropriate on the Tainted Anders forum, or is that the Taint Brigade? Never too sure.



This is the SSG, whilst many of us may love/like/tolerate/hate Anders, as supporters of Sebastian it is our Duty to kill him in the endgame. We may have liked to reason with Anders or Sebastian on this front, but the game does not let us do so. So it is a moot point.

John.

Modifié par john-in-france, 04 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[Chignon]

They had good cause to put him under surveillance. He did escape the Circle numerous times after all.

And Anders did state that his cat nearly got ripped in half by a genlock. "Almost got ripped in half by a genlock once." would be the exact quote.

Edit

And I agree with john. This discussion is better suited for the Anders thread.

Modifié par Chignon, 04 août 2011 - 02:40 .

[SurelyForth]

Chignon wrote...

They had good cause to put him under surveillance. He did escape the Circle numerous times after all.
 

But he was a Warden. Wardens aren't under the Chanty's purview anymore. He's a Warden. They still have his phylactery, which should be all the means of control the Chantry should have over him (and I think that's too much).

And this goes back to my issues with what Sebastian says when he compares himself to Hawke and Anders. Sebastian could have walked away from the Chantry and would have only felt guilt, at the most. He could get married, he could have kids that would be raised free. He could have anything he wanted. Hawke had to get lucky to not end up like most of the other refugees. And Anders? He has no hope. Even when he sacrifices his mental freedom and his health to become a Warden, he's not able to enjoy the limited freedoms that his fellow Wardens do, never mind getting to walk away and live free without the threat of the templars a constant shadow over his life.

Sebastian doesn't get that. His views are so simplistic, that he probably really doesn't understand why Anders' situation sucks more than his and Hawkes, and in specific and quantifiable ways. That's what frustrates me about him. I don't hate him as a character at all and I was even defending the idea of a Seb related DLC a few days ago.

And I will now go back to the tainted Anders thread.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 août 2011 - 03:23 .

[rak72]

[Chignon]

SurelyForth wrote...

I don't hate him as a character at all and I was even defending the idea of a Seb related DLC a few days ago. 

I don't think I've accused you of hating him as a character, SurelyForth. Aris has said already said everything on the topic I've wanted to say.

[syllogi]

john-in-france wrote...

This is the SSG, whilst many of us may love/like/tolerate/hate Anders, as supporters of Sebastian it is our Duty to kill him in the endgame. We may have liked to reason with Anders or Sebastian on this front, but the game does not let us do so. So it is a moot point.

While I think it's far more responsible to kill Anders at the endgame, rather than allowing him to live with no guarantee that he will not kill more innocents, I do think it's possible to let Anders live, and let Sebastian leave, and still like Sebastian's character.  If anything, Sebastian having a crisis point makes me like him more, whether or not I'm going to oblige him.

It would definitely make a difference if I knew that Sebastian does indeed come back with an army after Hawke, if I don't kill Anders, or if I knew for certain that Anders kills more innocents after the end of the game.  But I don't have that info, so I choose how each Hawke reacts to the Chantry explosion on a case by case basis, by the personality and background of that particular Hawke.  Not necessarily by how much I like certain characters.

[Ashara]

Eranelle wrote...

Just out of curiousity and thinking out loud; are all the ones that like Sebastian to come along are not the religious types and the ones that hates him are those who feels and think they're religious? Because I'm not religious and I really like Sebastian. My ex-boyfriend is very religious and my ex hated Sebastian; even got jealous when I started drawing Sebastian a lot.

Not my case  I am religious (catholic) and I like Sebastian a lot  

[trobbins777]

While we are on the topic, one thing i wished Bioware had done would be to give us the option of ,with Anders, is handing Sebastian the murder knife and saying. "You kill him." Because I honestly don't know if he could do it. On one hand yes Anders just murdered his surrogate mother, however if he does kill Anders it means he goes against everything Elthina taught him. It would be a great way to use the friendship rivalry system.

Modifié par trobbins777, 04 août 2011 - 05:05 .

[john-in-france]

trobbins777 wrote...

While we are on the topic, one thing i wished Bioware had done would be to give us the option of ,with Anders, is handing Sebastian the murder knife and saying. "You kill him." Because I honestly don't know if he could do it. On one hand yes Anders just murdered his surrogate mother, however if he does kill Anders it means he goes against everything Elthina taught him. It would be a great way to use the friendship rivalry system.

This.

I liked that in Origins, Alistair had the option to kill Loghain.

Modifié par john-in-france, 04 août 2011 - 05:30 .

[john-in-france]

The Sebastian endgame is complicated. Different people see it different ways. I shall keep my personal opinions out of this as far as I can, though I believe that I have given both Judys and my opinion elsewhere on the thread.
Tactically speaking:
1) Side with Sebastian, the only choice if you are romancing Sebastian. A good choice for friends of Sebastian who take the Chantry explosion as an act of Terrorism, and want to stop friend Sebastian from going all Dark Side.
2) Let Anders fight with the mages and lose two party members at the same time if you are playing a Templar.
3) Take Anders with you to right his wrongdoing. Risky, in real life can you trust someone who lied to you with your back? Works best in fanfiction.

So how does this actually effect Sebastian?
Killing Anders lets you side with the mages with Seb in the party, who feels that vengeance should be taken only against Anders and the Blood Mages. You can save the other mages. It also lifts the burden from a friend or lover.
Letting Anders live:
Dark side Sebastian, if you rivalled him, I am pretty sure that he'd be coming after Kirkwall and any mage still there. I certainly would not like to get in the way of the zealot that he could potentially become in this scenario.
Dark side Sebastian, there is no friendship after this turning point, however out of respect for your old friendship, he might be talked down once the grief had played out. Maybe not. Perhaps best for a romance where the love/hate thing may work best for you in fanfiction.

Bioware really took away our choices in the endgame.

I welcome debate, just no more Anders manifestos...please, I don't need more fire kindling.

John.

Modifié par john-in-france, 04 août 2011 - 05:33 .

[john-in-france]

rak72 wrote...

Was that the sound of a door slamming...

J&J

[Jackie Dangerfist]

KyleTheArtist wrote...

Eranelle wrote...

Just out of curiousity and thinking out loud; are all the ones that like Sebastian to come along are not the religious types and the ones that hates him are those who feels and think they're religious? Because I'm not religious and I really like Sebastian. My ex-boyfriend is very religious and my ex hated Sebastian; even got jealous when I started drawing Sebastian a lot.

I do not have any specific religion, I rather beleive in small aspects of each. Like I beleive in reincarnation, but I do not follow budism. And I freaking love Sebastian. he's just ngggh! XD So I don't think has anything to do with religion XD

That's actually pretty funny because I'm an athetist and he's my absolute favorite character.
I think that was due more to his voice/looks, I just sort of ignored the religiousness. Delicious white noise.

[john-in-france]

Day dreaming.
Copyright MacCaellich 2011, inspired by Bioware. Pastel pencils and photoshop.

[nitefyre410]

trobbins777 wrote...

While we are on the topic, one thing i wished Bioware had done would be to give us the option of ,with Anders, is handing Sebastian the murder knife and saying. "You kill him." Because I honestly don't know if he could do it. On one hand yes Anders just murdered his surrogate mother, however if he does kill Anders it means he goes against everything Elthina taught him. It would be a great way to use the friendship rivalry system.

If  Hawke something like this  :  "Kill him.. just remember if you do  - you'd betray everything  that the  Grand Cleric stood for or you can  come with me  and help stop this before it gets out of hand  your choice. Something I think you   Grandfather would have done."

then depending on you friendship or rivalry  Sebastian would  either kill him and leave swearing vengence  hawke ( if they are rivals or neutral  and Hawke sides with  mages.)    kill him and leave (If  Hawke sides with  Templars but is Neutral with  Sebastian)     Let him live   and leave saying that he will take to Grand Cleric(if hawke and he are friends  and sides with Templars)    Let him live and deal with it later(If he and hawke are  friends and Hawkes sides with Mages.) 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 05 août 2011 - 03:21 .

[john-in-france]

nitefyre410 wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

While we are on the topic, one thing i wished Bioware had done would be to give us the option of ,with Anders, is handing Sebastian the murder knife and saying. "You kill him." Because I honestly don't know if he could do it. On one hand yes Anders just murdered his surrogate mother, however if he does kill Anders it means he goes against everything Elthina taught him. It would be a great way to use the friendship rivalry system.

If  Hawke something like this  :  "Kill him.. just remember if you do  - you'd betray everything  that the  Grand Cleric stood for or you can  come with me  and help stop this before it gets out of hand  your choice. Something I think you   Grandfather would have done."

I like that. Nice and to the point. Bravo

[rak72]

I don't nesesarily agree killing andres is counter to being a good person/ andrastian.
Anders is an abomination and a threat to society, so ...

[john-in-france]

Maybe the option for Viscounts justice (mine by endgame)...imagining another head chopping opportunity, but legally rather than spur of the moment.

He is technically an abomination, so a maleficar (dealer with demons) not an apostate (mage outside of the circle), thus under Chantry death sentence anyway. Merrill does clarify that demons and spirits are the same thing, so does Wynne.

What he did was wrong, but I personally would not force Sebastian to kill him, as I'm happy to do it myself as an Andrastean Templar.

However I can see that some people wish to make him suffer by living with what he has done, and stopping him becoming a martyr for the mages cause.

From a solely RPG point of view, extra options would have been nice.

[Chignon]

rak72 wrote...

I don't nesesarily agree killing andres is counter to being a good person/ andrastian.
Anders is an abomination and a threat to society, so ...

Maybe, but Sebastian may not kill him for those reasons. He would take revenge and that would go against everything he had stood for so long.

[Heidenreich]

Chignon wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I don't nesesarily agree killing andres is counter to being a good person/ andrastian.
Anders is an abomination and a threat to society, so ...

Maybe, but Sebastian may not kill him for those reasons. He would take revenge and that would go against everything he had stood for so long.

\\


Except, you know, the revenge taking of the mercenary company that killed his parrents, and the revenge taking on the harrimans for ordering the attack.

....because, you know, revenge is bad until its... what?


I do not enjoy Seb as a character. Not because he's a chantry boy. Not because he trollfaces Anders at the end of the game (Which actually to me is the only part of his character I actually can get behind, considering Anders just jenga'd the only home he's had for the last 15 years.). I dislike Seb because he's -whiny- and -preachy- and -childish-. More so then both Anders and Fenris combined. He looks his nose down at his own faith while subsequently shoving it down everyone elses throats. Be religious, or don't seb. Don't preach while looking your nose down at it.

"I am need revenge for family, kill these people for me!" "... but seb, isn't revenge condoned within the chantry?" "but I'm a prince and I need to!"

"There you go seb, I've helped you kill the bad guys. Go be a prince now." ".. but, hawke I can't! What if they're right! I'm totally a Brother, now that all the revenge-ing is done!" "..."

"How dare he defy the will of Andraste by being an abomination! C'mon Fenris, lets go turn him in!" "Sorry seb, I hate his ass, but there's no way I'm going behind hawke's back. If he/she wants to turn him in, that's one thing."

"Hawke <mage> should be Vicount!" ".... but Seb.. I'm a mage. Isn't the whole point of the circle and all its stupid rapes, murders, and abuses because Andraste said mages can't rule stuff?"  "...Totally not the point, Hawke!!"

"Murh Durh is wrong!" "but seb, we totally just, uh, "Murh Durh'd" 56 people who jumped off buildings." "But they murh durh'd people!" "..."


He's a spoiled rotten rich boy who's had zero concequences for his actions his whole life.. minus that whole, being sent of to the chantry thing for embarrasing the **** out of his parents due to his spoild-rotten-ness. I dislike these types of people in real life, and it took quite a bit of roleplaying for any but my overtly-faithful, templar supporting, Fenris romancing, Anders rivaling diplomatic Warrior Hawke to put up with him. ;p I only recruit him at all because the ending is wrong with out him. It's also the only time I actually enjoy the character ;p It's true to him, reacting in such a way. I suspect anyone would react that way if their home was blown up by a Terrorist. Especially one who's been a "friend" for the last 7 years. In fact, to me its really the only time he's true to himself.

Not to say that he isn't well written, or worthy of your love. He just isn't my favorite. If he was less.. waffly... for a lack of a better word, throughout the course of the game, then maybe I would like him more.

Also, srsly the animators totally went out of their way to give him a troll face in that last scene. I swear. And that makes me want to punch Ser-Pounce. Don't tell Anders.

[Chignon]

Heidenreich wrote...

Except, you know, the revenge taking of the mercenary company that killed his parrents, and the revenge taking on the harrimans for ordering the attack.

True, but I was referring to only that particular scenario.

Modifié par Chignon, 05 août 2011 - 08:58 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I like Sebastian myself.

Reminds me of German princes I studied about during the Protestant Reformation.
Plus since I kill Anders in almost every game its all good.