2724 réponses à ce sujet

[john-in-france]

Heidenreich wrote...

I dislike Seb because he's -whiny- and -preachy- and -childish-. More so then both Anders and Fenris combined. He looks his nose down at his own faith while subsequently shoving it down everyone elses throats. Be religious, or don't seb. Don't preach while looking your nose down at it.

He's a spoiled rotten rich boy who's had zero concequences for his actions his whole life.. minus that whole, being sent of to the chantry thing for embarrasing the **** out of his parents due to his spoild-rotten-ness. I dislike these types of people in real life, and it took quite a bit of roleplaying for any but my overtly-faithful, templar supporting, Fenris romancing, Anders rivaling diplomatic Warrior Hawke to put up with him. ;p I only recruit him at all because the ending is wrong with out him. It's also the only time I actually enjoy the character ;p It's true to him, reacting in such a way. I suspect anyone would react that way if their home was blown up by a Terrorist. Especially one who's been a "friend" for the last 7 years. In fact, to me its really the only time he's true to himself.

I can see he pushes a nice button there...sure you don't have a love/hate relationship in the making?

I also have problems playing the game in that only my evil, aggressive speaking force/bloodmage can take Anders part and live with the whole Chantry debacle. I erased the game and just play Anders quests for XP. Strangely enough I have never lied to Anders and yet still reach high friendship scores, and I've never managed to rival him at all.

Since this is the SSG, I will not dwell on party banter, Anders does not fare well there either, too rude and abusive to other members. Please mod party banter Bioware...for the sanity of all of us! 

Back to Sebastian:
For me being sent to a monastic order for 15 years is a form of torture! He didn't want to go there. Again Elthina helped him get through that transition.

I do not see the same things that you do in Sebastian, but that is simply because we are different people.

I also get where Sebastian is coming from, I lost friends in an IRA terrorist bombing in Guildford (UK), and I wanted blood, so did every other soldier in my regiment. They were medical corps, nurses. So the endgame hits bad memories for me...and no, there is not enough RPGing in the world that will ever override that reaction.

He lost a home, a surrogate mother, and possibly his only close friends by the end of play. On top of that Sebastian also
failed in his vow to protect Elthina, something that has got to hurt.

Regardless of his failings, mainly caused by Bioware not finishing the story arc, Sebastian still remains the only sane heterosexual man in the game (who is a LI)...to me. 
The Anders/Justice abomination creeps me out, but then so do vampires, and then theres Fenris who leaves you after one night, shags Isabela silly for 3 years, and then suddenly wants you back, though at least he is nice eye candy.

Someone at Bioware needs to learn to write romance...and decent endgame options!

Judy.

Modifié par john-in-france, 05 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[Giggles_Manically]

The only way for the banter to trigger between Isabela and Fenris indicating that they slept together is for BOTH their romances to be inactive by the time act 3 rolls around.

Still though I perfectly understand his reaction in that moment, and dont hold it against him.
If some monster blew up the only family I had, and my home and then started saying how great and just it was .... well I would kill him in a horrible painful way and spit on his corpse when I was done.

[Chignon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I like Sebastian myself.

Reminds me of German princes I studied about during the Protestant Reformation.
Plus since I kill Anders in almost every game its all good.

He does? That's quite an interesting viewpoint, Giggles.

[john-in-france]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Still though I perfectly understand his reaction in that moment, and dont hold it against him.
If some monster blew up the only family I had, and my home and then started saying how great and just it was .... well I would kill him in a horrible painful way and spit on his corpse when I was done.

John would like you, he is worse than me on that topic and whinges about the tiny murder knife instead of a sword...

Judy.
PS. I must have hit a naff flag then, because seriously it happened.

[Nhadalie]

I think part of what I like about Sebby is that he waffles.


I don't think he'd be nearly as interesting if he listened and did everything Elthina told him to like a good little choir boy. And honestly, I'd have no interest in him whatsoever if he didn't waffle between his duties, and what he feels is right. I like that he's a passionate character who throws himself into whatever he is going for 110%, even if things change and he ends up reconsidering. And really, who doesn't reconsider what they're doing in their lives when something catastrophic happens? I'd imagine losing your family, or seeing somewhere important to you get blown up would be a crisis for anyone to deal with.


Sebby's uncertainty in what to do shows a realistic view of how someone might act in his situation. Is he a spoiled prince who doesn't understand other people? Definitely. But he also genuinely wants to do what is right, and he has a lot of difficulties figuring out where he should be, and what he should do. And he actually tries to understand people, instead of blowing them off entirely like some other characters do.(Like Izzy, for example. That's not to say that either of them are right or wrong in their views. They've simply both been shaped by their experiences.)

[Giggles_Manically]

Well specifically the ones who said:
Hold it... this Luther guy has some smart things to say... maybe the church is kind of dumb.

In my canon he sides against the templar order, as a rival.
It leads me to think that he will be a kind of prince who knows that some of what the Chantry says is BS.

Which is the type of leader that a city needs it seems in Thedas.
That is my fave ending for Sebastian- Rival, when Hawke sides with the mages.

I think it honestly gives him a solid base to see the world, and to know what is what.
Which is why I hope the rumors of a Sebastian DLC are true since I want to go to Starkhaven.

[Chignon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well specifically the ones who said:
Hold it... this Luther guy has some smart things to say... maybe the church is kind of dumb.

In my canon he sides against the templar order, as a rival.
It leads me to think that he will be a kind of prince who knows that some of what the Chantry says is BS.

Which is the type of leader that a city needs it seems in Thedas.
That is my fave ending for Sebastian- Rival, when Hawke sides with the mages.

I think it honestly gives him a solid base to see the world, and to know what is what.
Which is why I hope the rumors of a Sebastian DLC are true since I want to go to Starkhaven.

What I like about that particular ending is that he admits that it is very hard for him and yet he still does it. I think it speaks much of him.

Nhadalie wrote...

I think part of what I like about Sebby is that he waffles.

I wouldn't say I like it, but I do understand him. It isn't an easy decision that he has to make, especially because it doesn't only concern him and his future but also the future of Starkhaven and its people if he decides to leave the Chantry.

[john-in-france]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well specifically the ones who said:
Hold it... this Luther guy has some smart things to say... maybe the church is kind of dumb.

In my canon he sides against the templar order, as a rival.
It leads me to think that he will be a kind of prince who knows that some of what the Chantry says is BS.

Which is the type of leader that a city needs it seems in Thedas.
That is my fave ending for Sebastian- Rival, when Hawke sides with the mages.

I think it honestly gives him a solid base to see the world, and to know what is what.
Which is why I hope the rumors of a Sebastian DLC are true since I want to go to Starkhaven.

From some of the things said, I think Friendmanced Sebastian is also capable of knowing that some of the Chantry sayings are BS, he insists on leading by example, rather than just the preachy 'I will convert you heathens' bit. He does talk about his beliefs but then, that is Sebastian. He certainly expresses his opinion when I drag him everywhere with me.

I haven't yet tried the totally insane Meredith line, normally I try to play a sane Templar type, and don't give up Anders to Cullen mid-Justice quest (game option)

I have played the mage ending, but Bioware spoilt it for me by having Orsino go Dark Side, my warrior wanted to protect them.

[nitefyre410]

rak72 wrote...

I don't nesesarily agree killing andres is counter to being a good person/ andrastian.
Anders is an abomination and a threat to society, so ...

Just a question - if  Anders is an Abomination -  then what does that make Wynne?

[Giggles_Manically]

Also a technical abomination.

Except that we never see the Spirit manifest like we do for Anders.
Nor does she blow up a church and declare it RIGHTEOUS!

[Jessihatt]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

*snip*
If some monster blew up the only family I had, and my home and then started saying how great and just it was .... well I would kill him in a horrible painful way and spit on his corpse when I was done.

This has just made it easier to romance Sebastian and kill Anders in my rogue playthrough - thanks :happy:
I normally romance Anders so can't bring myself to kill him. I always found Seb too whiney so never put myself in his shoes as I didn't care much for someone who wanted Anders dead!
But lately Sebastian's grown on me.

[Nhadalie]

Chignon wrote...

I wouldn't say I like it, but I do understand him. It isn't an easy decision that he has to make, especially because it doesn't only concern him and his future but also the future of Starkhaven and its people if he decides to leave the Chantry.

I meant that I like that he doesn't just jump one way or the other without fully thinking it through. I like that he actually puts a lot of effort into figuring out what the right decision is. It says a lot about his character that he wants to be sure he's making the best choice, not just for himself, but also for Starkhaven.

I can respect someone who actually thinks things through when they're in a tough situation.

[nitefyre410]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Also a technical abomination.

Except that we never see the Spirit manifest like we do for Anders.
Nor does she blow up a church and declare it RIGHTEOUS!

Technically  -  thats a very tenative technically on my part btw.

i don't want bog the thread down with the discussion because it will mostly  derail the thread. Just in short the Chantry has very limited knowledge on  Fade and its  denizens.   Spirits and Demons  seemed to be based of the classical virtues and vices... So what would the  polar opposite  of Justice be ,  I don't know  about it being  Vengence cause  Vengence is Justice in its most extreme sense not its opposite.  From the Chatry's on words Spirits are not demons but they can become Demons.  Example a Spirit of Faith would become  its Demon  Nihlism.    Just a brief  thought Im not going bog thread dones with so  

back  to  Ezio -  I mean Sebastian  

[Chignon]

Nhadalie wrote...

I meant that I like that he doesn't just jump one way or the other without fully thinking it through. I like that he actually puts a lot of effort into figuring out what the right decision is. It says a lot about his character that he wants to be sure he's making the best choice, not just for himself, but also for Starkhaven.

I can respect someone who actually thinks things through when they're in a tough situation.

I was actually agreeing with you.

[rak72]

My view on Sebastian's waffling:

Sebastian is really afraid of going back to being the little punk he once was. He's clinging to the chantry because that's what is keeping him grounded. Given the right relationship with Hawk, he can see that he can still be a good person without the chantry, maybe Hawk is what's keeping him grounded now. When the chantry blows, Hawk is the only stabilizing influence he has left. If Hawk turns on him, then choir boy as we know him is gone.

I still think that the chaste marriage thing can be pushed in whatever direction Hawk wants it after the chantry blows, since Hawk will now be the predominant influence in his life.

Modifié par rak72, 06 août 2011 - 02:08 .

[miskatonica]

I think Sebastian would have been better as a character on the whole if we'd had more of an opportunity to take him on individual quests and such, and if there wasn't such a large gap between meeting him in Act 1 and Act 2. Because it's like Hawke casually strolls up to him and goes "HEY SUP I KILLED THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED YOUR FAMILY" and Sebastian's like "UH THANKS" and Hawke just ... leaves?

I like Sebastian a lot, but it's hard to get a sense of him as a character sometimes.

[john-in-france]

rak72 wrote...

My view on Sebastian's waffling:

Sebastian is really afraid of going back to being the little punk he once was. He's clinging to the chantry because that's what is keeping him grounded. Given the right relationship with Hawk, he can see that he can still be a good person without the chantry, maybe Hawk is what's keeping him grounded now. When the chantry blows, Hawk is the only stabilizing influence he has left. If Hawk turns on him, then choir boy as we know him is gone.

I still think that the chaste marriage thing can be pushed in whatever direction Hawk wants it after the chantry blows, since Hawk will now be the predominant influence in his life.

Exactly so, in my mind anyway.

From things said during my many, many Friendmances with Seb, I am certain that he is going back to Starkhaven. If he does become Prince, then he will need heirs, thus the chaste marriage as in 'no other except you' becomes more likely than the celibate chaste marriage.
Judy

Ummm, since installing Legacy, I've found some extras in the companions dialogue, is it my imagination or has anyone else noticed? New Sebastian romance just started from scratch after Legacy installation.

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 07:29 .

[john-in-france]

nitefyre410 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I don't nesesarily agree killing andres is counter to being a good person/ andrastian.
Anders is an abomination and a threat to society, so ...

Just a question - if  Anders is an Abomination -  then what does that make Wynne?

An abomination. By her own words in Origins.
Being a nice Amell there, I do say that being an abomination depends on whether she retains her humanity or not.

Wynne was possessed by a spirit that seemed to be in line with her own moral values. Thus the spirit seemed to remain pure.

Anders was possessed by a spirit of Justice that he corrupted by his own anger (From the Anders dialogue), thus whilst he started out possessed by a spirit, he ended up possessed by a demon of his own making. Fallen angel style - Lucifer the light bringer rebelling against God, then becoming the first Satan of hell. In medieval literature there is more than one Satan in hell, it being a title of a ruler of one of the rings of hell, Lucifer being the ruler of the ring associated with  Pride.

Judy
PS I'm not religious but can see parallels - Anders as Lucifer both the Angel (Described as beautiful and aided mankind), then the Satan (I'd rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven), and Sebastian as the Archangel Michael (peacekeeper normal Sebastian,  and holy warrior, Exalted March Sebastian).
PPS I have an obsession with the history of medieval europe during the time of the crusades.

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 08:39 .

[john-in-france]

miskatonica wrote...

I think Sebastian would have been better as a character on the whole if we'd had more of an opportunity to take him on individual quests and such, and if there wasn't such a large gap between meeting him in Act 1 and Act 2. Because it's like Hawke casually strolls up to him and goes "HEY SUP I KILLED THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED YOUR FAMILY" and Sebastian's like "UH THANKS" and Hawke just ... leaves?

I like Sebastian a lot, but it's hard to get a sense of him as a character sometimes.

There is a lot of Chantry stuff going on at the time Act 1 - beginning Act 2, the Divine is dying, there is a power struggle, then eventually the new Divine Justinia (another play on Justice, bad Bioware) is accepted. I expect Sebastian went with Elthina to Orlais for the elections, thus was unavailable for the Deep Roads.

Also again, Bioware never finished the story arc, I imagine that Sebastian would have been available earlier if they had, and Meghan Vaels amulet would have been a gift for Sebastian.

Judy

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 07:52 .

[john-in-france]

The wonderful Yuhime comic from Deviant Art, always make me smile...
link is hereYuhime - Conspiracy Theory.

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[nos_astra]

SurelyForth wrote...
But he was a Warden. Wardens aren't under the Chanty's purview anymore. He's a Warden. They still have his phylactery, which should be all the means of control the Chantry should have over him (and I think that's too much).

The Wardens don't exist in a vacuum. Whatever traditional rights they may have, they are depending on the goodwill of the local lords and the monarchs. They have no chance of suviving if they don't cooperate. Duncan said as much.

Anders is completely unable to be pragmatic about things that concern him. He was never subjected to rape or torture at the Circle. Sure, he was beaten up and put in solitary confinement after his seventh escape attempt, but that's nothing special in goddamn Thedas where thieves are whipped or hanged.

Why would the Wardens have him watched? Maybe they wanted to appease the Chantry and rather not risk their current standing in Ferelden? Maybe Anders being accused of killing a squad of templars may have something to do with it? Maybe the Warden Commander is written with at least with a tiny bit of political clout not at all willing to alienate the First Warden, Ferelden's ruler, the Chantry and their lieges because of one man.

He was under surveillance by one templar. One guy, and a Warden too. It can't have been for that long (weeks, months maybe), but no, Anders can't compromise. My way or the highway. He forsakes duty, makes a deal with a creature of the Fade, ends up killing a bunch of templars und eventually kills a Grand Cleric (and causes a probably impressive amount of collateral damage).

Unless I'm missing critical information here, Sebastian is very right reminding him that nobody is truly free, not in Thedas. Fenris escaped slavery, Hawke left Ferelden, Sebastian left the Chantry and Anders left the Circle and the Wardens. Varying degrees of restricted freedom, yes, but it does put a bit of perspective on Anders endless whining about how mages have it worst because Kirkwall is really bad (and being in a circle sucks anyway for Anders). <_<

[nos_astra]

rak72 wrote...

My view on Sebastian's waffling:

Sebastian is really afraid of going back to being the little punk he once was. He's clinging to the chantry because that's what is keeping him grounded. Given the right relationship with Hawk, he can see that he can still be a good person without the chantry, maybe Hawk is what's keeping him grounded now. When the chantry blows, Hawk is the only stabilizing influence he has left. If Hawk turns on him, then choir boy as we know him is gone.

I still think that the chaste marriage thing can be pushed in whatever direction Hawk wants it after the chantry blows, since Hawk will now be the predominant influence in his life.

He's the last of his line. Being a brother gave him a purpose, it's a quiet life, very simple. He can do good there.

Retaking Starkhaven is a big risk, financially, politically and physically. He needs an army, he needs poltical support and money. He could die trying or he could fail. It's not an easy feat to build an army from the scratch that is strong enough to conquer Starkhaven. There will be a war, people will die.

I'm amazed how many shrug this of as waffling. It takes years of planning and negotiating to even get started.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[john-in-france]

At least post game he has an ally, the Viscount/ess of Kirkwall.

[nitefyre410]

john-in-france wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I don't nesesarily agree killing andres is counter to being a good person/ andrastian.
Anders is an abomination and a threat to society, so ...

Just a question - if  Anders is an Abomination -  then what does that make Wynne?

An abomination. By her own words in Origins.
Being a nice Amell there, I do say that being an abomination depends on whether she retains her humanity or not.

Wynne was possessed by a spirit that seemed to be in line with her own moral values. Thus the spirit seemed to remain pure.

Anders was possessed by a spirit of Justice that he corrupted by his own anger (From the Anders dialogue), thus whilst he started out possessed by a spirit, he ended up possessed by a demon of his own making. Fallen angel style - Lucifer the light bringer rebelling against God, then becoming the first Satan of hell. In medieval literature there is more than one Satan in hell, it being a title of a ruler of one of the rings of hell, Lucifer being the ruler of the ring associated with  Pride.

Judy
PS I'm not religious but can see parallels - Anders as Lucifer both the Angel (Described as beautiful and aided mankind), then the Satan (I'd rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven), and Sebastian as the Archangel Michael (peacekeeper normal Sebastian,  and holy warrior, Exalted March Sebastian).
PPS I have an obsession with the history of medieval europe during the time of the crusades.

 

True but that Is only by her understanding as well  - which given the limited of knowledge of the Spirits and Demons  the Chantry  has given them is now suprise. 

Oh I could  really takes us over the deep end for something I that I have been pondering for years.  "If Angels have not will of their own  and can only follow Gods will.  How can Lucifer rebel  against God?"    


i don't want bog the thread down with the discussion because it will mostly  derail the thread. Just in short the Chantry has very limited knowledge on  Fade and its  denizens.   Spirits and Demons  seemed to be based of the classical virtues and vices... So what would the  polar opposite  of Justice be ,  I don't know  about it being  Vengence cause  Vengence is Justice in its most extreme sense not its opposite.  From the Chatry's on words Spirits are not demons but they can become Demons.  Example a Spirit of Faith would become  its Demon  Nihlism.    Just a brief  thought Im not going bog thread dones with so  

Just a theory on how the two could - could be different.   

[Chignon]

john-in-france wrote...

Also again, Bioware never finished the story arc, I imagine that Sebastian would have been available earlier if they had, and Meghan Vaels amulet would have been a gift for Sebastian.

Judy

I had hoped it'd trigger a dialogue if given to him, but sadly no. A missed opportunity -- I for one would've loved to know more about the Vaels and Sebastian's relationship with his parents and brothers.