2724 réponses à ce sujet

[john-in-france]

nitefyre410 wrote...

True but that Is only by her understanding as well  - which given the limited of knowledge of the Spirits and Demons  the Chantry  has given them is now suprise. 

Oh I could  really takes us over the deep end for something I that I have been pondering for years.  "If Angels have not will of their own  and can only follow Gods will.  How can Lucifer rebel  against God?"    

i don't want bog the thread down with the discussion because it will mostly  derail the thread. Just in short the Chantry has very limited knowledge on  Fade and its  denizens.   Spirits and Demons  seemed to be based of the classical virtues and vices... So what would the  polar opposite  of Justice be ,  I don't know  about it being  Vengence cause  Vengence is Justice in its most extreme sense not its opposite.  From the Chatry's on words Spirits are not demons but they can become Demons.  Example a Spirit of Faith would become  its Demon  Nihlism.    Just a brief  thought Im not going bog thread dones with so  

Just a theory on how the two could - could be different.   

I also have that question, but always took the Lucifer story as allegory. However in medieval times angels were believed to have a will of their own but served God. We could discuss this elsewhere, on a new thread perhaps exploring the similarities between DA universe and the time of the Crusades.

Opposite of Justice using medieval texts on vice is Wrath: the love of justice perverted to revenge and spite.

Judy

[nitefyre410]

john-in-france wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

True but that Is only by her understanding as well  - which given the limited of knowledge of the Spirits and Demons  the Chantry  has given them is now suprise. 

Oh I could  really takes us over the deep end for something I that I have been pondering for years.  "If Angels have not will of their own  and can only follow Gods will.  How can Lucifer rebel  against God?"    

i don't want bog the thread down with the discussion because it will mostly  derail the thread. Just in short the Chantry has very limited knowledge on  Fade and its  denizens.   Spirits and Demons  seemed to be based of the classical virtues and vices... So what would the  polar opposite  of Justice be ,  I don't know  about it being  Vengence cause  Vengence is Justice in its most extreme sense not its opposite.  From the Chatry's on words Spirits are not demons but they can become Demons.  Example a Spirit of Faith would become  its Demon  Nihlism.    Just a brief  thought Im not going bog thread dones with so  

Just a theory on how the two could - could be different.   

I also have that question, but always took the Lucifer story as allegory. However in medieval times angels were believed to have a will of their own but served God. We could discuss this elsewhere, on a new thread perhaps exploring the similarities between DA universe and the time of the Crusades.

Opposite of Justice using medieval texts on vice is Wrath: the love of justice perverted to revenge and spite.

Judy

that sounds like a good idea -  i did not want to derail the  Ezio - I am Sebastian thread  with topic but it was thought that I had. 

[john-in-france]

Chignon wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Also again, Bioware never finished the story arc, I imagine that Sebastian would have been available earlier if they had, and Meghan Vaels amulet would have been a gift for Sebastian.

Judy

I had hoped it'd trigger a dialogue if given to him, but sadly no. A missed opportunity -- I for one would've loved to know more about the Vaels and Sebastian's relationship with his parents and brothers.

Fingers crossed that they will patch the game when/if a Starkhaven DLC arrives. We learn so little about his family. His grandfather sounds nice, his parents not so much so...poor young Sebastian.

[john-in-france]

nitefyre410 wrote...

that sounds like a good idea -  i did not want to derail the  Ezio - I am Sebastian thread  with topic but it was thought that I had. 

New thread created in DA General discussions: DA universe and the Holy Crusades.
http://social.biowar...49547/1#8049634

[Nhadalie]

john-in-france wrote...

Exactly so, in my mind anyway.

From things said during my many, many Friendmances with Seb, I am certain that he is going back to Starkhaven. If he does become Prince, then he will need heirs, thus the chaste marriage as in 'no other except you' becomes more likely than the celibate chaste marriage.
Judy

Ummm, since installing Legacy, I've found some extras in the companions dialogue, is it my imagination or has anyone else noticed? New Sebastian romance just started from scratch after Legacy installation.

I'm pretty sure that after the destruction of the chantry, Sebby won't be returning to his vows, and being a brother. Elthina seemed to be the main reason why he accepted his role there, and stayed in the first place.

I think after the events at the end of DA2, he'll see just how important a strong ruler is, and believe that he needs to take back Starkhaven. Which will probably lead to the whole heirs bit, and actual non-celibate romance between Hawke and Sebby.

Care to share the extras? Or at least let us know where to find them?

[syllogi]

Chignon wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Also again, Bioware never finished the story arc, I imagine that Sebastian would have been available earlier if they had, and Meghan Vaels amulet would have been a gift for Sebastian.

Judy

I had hoped it'd trigger a dialogue if given to him, but sadly no. A missed opportunity -- I for one would've loved to know more about the Vaels and Sebastian's relationship with his parents and brothers.

It bothers me that we have no option to give it back to him, whether my Hawke likes him or not, she wouldn't knowingly keep a dead mother or sister's necklace away from the last remaining member of that family.

[Chignon]

TeenZombie wrote...

It bothers me that we have no option to give it back to him, whether my Hawke likes him or not, she wouldn't knowingly keep a dead mother or sister's necklace away from the last remaining member of that family.

Couldn't agree more. I always equip him with it, but of course it's not quite the same.

[john-in-france]

We're all hopeless romantics...I always give him the amulet too!

Judy

[Giggles_Manically]

I give him his DLC one....
Like I have said before I would dress in a frilly pink tutu if it had nice enough stats.

[john-in-france]

Nhadalie wrote...

Care to share the extras? Or at least let us know where to find them?

So far, one different line with Isabela and a part line with Merrill on recruitment, I didn't notice until John jumped across my keyboard in eagerness. For Sebastian, the changes seemed to be more subtle, just an extra two words in Act 1, and a different emphasis after Repentance. I'm wondering if Legacy has screwed up a flag somewhere. I'm waiting for the Act 2 Questioning Beliefs to see if I am imagining it or not. But so far the emphasis seems less waffly. I will let you know as I have plans for a morning of DA2 hedonism tomorrow...

Judy

[john-in-france]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I give him his DLC one....
Like I have said before I would dress in a frilly pink tutu if it had nice enough stats.

Have you been over to Dragonage Nexus and loaded Moroziks75-Final Arsenal? The new version has some fabulous bows and other weapons. My favourites are Glory of Griffon bow and Frostmourne 2 handed sword. Also I found a mod for companion rings, belts and amulets that make sense for them, called Complete Items Sets.

What can I say, I mod so I can replay...

[Heidenreich]

So, I meant to participate in this thread and not just "make one post and run away" dealy bob. Really. ;p I just got caught up with life and forgot.

I actually love-to-hate seb, more then outright dislike. It could be that I like Anders, but then, I like Fenris just as much and -they- hate each other. I also actually very much like his reaction to Anders' "jenga-ing" (as we anders thread folks call it) of the chantry. Its very true to his character and both his writer and vo did an excellent job of portraying the emotion he would experience in such a situation.

As I said though, my issue is with how he presents himself. Revenge is okay, until its not. Magic is OKAY, until its not. He is very much the spoiled rich boy forced into a less-then-fun situation. It's not an end of the world scenario. It's just not ideal for him. So, upon the first opportunity to throw his roll away, he does so. And then, he condemns others for acts he himself commits (or asks others to do in his name).

Fenris -puts up- with magic, but he never gets over it. Its never okay for him. It takes him 7 years to deal with a Pro-mage/Mage Hawke. And that's literally after Hawke goes above and beyond by helping him kill the man who used magic to ruin his life. Thus, he's still not okay with magic. He just trusts Hawke.

Anders is never okay with Templars. Even when he meets kind templars, even when he talks to a templar-carver. He is never okay with someone thinking keeping mages locked up for crimes they haven't yet comitted. Even Hawke. He may love Hawke (and he always does, even a unromanced rival hawke) but if Hawke's pro-templar its something that he actively and fervently tries to change.

But Seb is an "It's okay till I get bored" kind of guy, and it just.. reminds me to much of some of the folk I grew up with. Religion(or rather, being a brother. He never does waffle on his religion.) is good, till its not! Revenge is good, till its not! It.. just rubs me the wrong way and I want to smack the crap out of him and tell him to wake up ;p

I'm not saying he should take over starkhaven. I'm not saying he should leave the chantry. I understand that it would take quite a while to get up enough support from other city-states to take back his throne. I just... I like a man who can make up his mind, I think. And Seb.. it takes him 4 years to do it, and that's only -after- someone's forced his hand.

[nos_astra]

Heidenreich wrote...
As I said though, my issue is with how he presents himself. Revenge is okay, until its not. Magic is OKAY, until its not.

But that's true for all of them. It's hypocritical, but who is not? Isn't Anders himself the king of hypocrisy?

The point is, Sebastian is the only companion who will openly disapprove to a point where he considers acting against Hawke (but of course can't, thanks to Hawke's plot armour). The fact that he's pro-chantry and takes most things so bloody serious doesn't help him either. He's also disliked and mocked by Merrill, Isabela, Anders, Aveline and Varric.

Fenris disapproves of Anders, but he just he loves Hawke. Even mage Hawke is just so special, so different than any other mage. I doubt you would like Fenris if he treated your mage Hawke with the same disdain he treats every other mage. He also drinks, is broody and angsty. He's disliked by Anders and Merrill.

I do see a pattern there. And it has nothing to do with Sebastian being especially preachy or hypocritical.

And "it's okay 'til I'm bored"? After he accepted living as a chantry brother, taking vows of celibacy and poverty? Um, I don't even...

Modifié par klarabella, 07 août 2011 - 01:51 .

[randomcheeses]

Heidenreich wrote...

So, I meant to participate in this thread and not just "make one post and run away" dealy bob. Really. ;p I just got caught up with life and forgot.

I actually love-to-hate seb, more then outright dislike. It could be that I like Anders, but then, I like Fenris just as much and -they- hate each other. I also actually very much like his reaction to Anders' "jenga-ing" (as we anders thread folks call it) of the chantry. Its very true to his character and both his writer and vo did an excellent job of portraying the emotion he would experience in such a situation.

As I said though, my issue is with how he presents himself. Revenge is okay, until its not. Magic is OKAY, until its not. He is very much the spoiled rich boy forced into a less-then-fun situation. It's not an end of the world scenario. It's just not ideal for him. So, upon the first opportunity to throw his roll away, he does so. And then, he condemns others for acts he himself commits (or asks others to do in his name).

Fenris -puts up- with magic, but he never gets over it. Its never okay for him. It takes him 7 years to deal with a Pro-mage/Mage Hawke. And that's literally after Hawke goes above and beyond by helping him kill the man who used magic to ruin his life. Thus, he's still not okay with magic. He just trusts Hawke.

Anders is never okay with Templars. Even when he meets kind templars, even when he talks to a templar-carver. He is never okay with someone thinking keeping mages locked up for crimes they haven't yet comitted. Even Hawke. He may love Hawke (and he always does, even a unromanced rival hawke) but if Hawke's pro-templar its something that he actively and fervently tries to change.

But Seb is an "It's okay till I get bored" kind of guy, and it just.. reminds me to much of some of the folk I grew up with. Religion(or rather, being a brother. He never does waffle on his religion.) is good, till its not! Revenge is good, till its not! It.. just rubs me the wrong way and I want to smack the crap out of him and tell him to wake up ;p

I'm not saying he should take over starkhaven. I'm not saying he should leave the chantry. I understand that it would take quite a while to get up enough support from other city-states to take back his throne. I just... I like a man who can make up his mind, I think. And Seb.. it takes him 4 years to do it, and that's only -after- someone's forced his hand.

You might want to keep in mind that he's deciding whether or not to start a war. His cousin or whoever the major power is in Starkhaven is not going to let him walk back in and take over just because he feels like being prince again. So if he does decide to retake Starkhaven, then relatively innocent people are going to die, and Sebastian will consider himself directly responsible for those deaths because he made the decision to take back the city. Personally I think he can be forgiven for waffling a bit. He's taking people's lives into account, after all.

Modifié par randomcheeses, 07 août 2011 - 01:55 .

[Heidenreich]

randomcheeses wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

So, I meant to participate in this thread and not just "make one post and run away" dealy bob. Really. ;p I just got caught up with life and forgot.

I actually love-to-hate seb, more then outright dislike. It could be that I like Anders, but then, I like Fenris just as much and -they- hate each other. I also actually very much like his reaction to Anders' "jenga-ing" (as we anders thread folks call it) of the chantry. Its very true to his character and both his writer and vo did an excellent job of portraying the emotion he would experience in such a situation.

As I said though, my issue is with how he presents himself. Revenge is okay, until its not. Magic is OKAY, until its not. He is very much the spoiled rich boy forced into a less-then-fun situation. It's not an end of the world scenario. It's just not ideal for him. So, upon the first opportunity to throw his roll away, he does so. And then, he condemns others for acts he himself commits (or asks others to do in his name).

Fenris -puts up- with magic, but he never gets over it. Its never okay for him. It takes him 7 years to deal with a Pro-mage/Mage Hawke. And that's literally after Hawke goes above and beyond by helping him kill the man who used magic to ruin his life. Thus, he's still not okay with magic. He just trusts Hawke.

Anders is never okay with Templars. Even when he meets kind templars, even when he talks to a templar-carver. He is never okay with someone thinking keeping mages locked up for crimes they haven't yet comitted. Even Hawke. He may love Hawke (and he always does, even a unromanced rival hawke) but if Hawke's pro-templar its something that he actively and fervently tries to change.

But Seb is an "It's okay till I get bored" kind of guy, and it just.. reminds me to much of some of the folk I grew up with. Religion(or rather, being a brother. He never does waffle on his religion.) is good, till its not! Revenge is good, till its not! It.. just rubs me the wrong way and I want to smack the crap out of him and tell him to wake up ;p

I'm not saying he should take over starkhaven. I'm not saying he should leave the chantry. I understand that it would take quite a while to get up enough support from other city-states to take back his throne. I just... I like a man who can make up his mind, I think. And Seb.. it takes him 4 years to do it, and that's only -after- someone's forced his hand.

You might want to keep in mind that he's deciding whether or not to start a war. His cousin or whoever the major power is in Starkhaven is not going to let him walk back in and take over just because he feels like being prince again. So if he does decide to retake Starkhaven, then relatively innocent people are going to die, and Sebastian will consider himself directly responsible for those deaths because he made the decision to take back the city. Personally I think he can be forgiven for waffling a bit. He's taking people's lives into account, after all.

Except I don't believe that's why he's doing it. He's not waffling because he's taking lives into account. He's waffling because he's scared that the Desire Demon might be right. Does he really want something bad enough that he's willing to throw away his life, which at that point he's come to like and accept? Is she right that all he really wants is power for powers sake? It feels very selfish to me. Either he stays with the chantry, where its safe and he's reletively happy and loved.. or he goes home and starts a war... and he worries that starting a war will only prove that he desires power.

And, if he  -is- in fact waffling because of other peoples lives, why would he willing agree to run around with Hawke, who kills people. Sure, she (he) may be doing it to protect XX person, or to stop slavery, or to <insert logical reason> here, but at the end of the day, it's still taking peoples lives.

So to me it comes off, again, as "It's okay, until its not".





Disclamer: I'm not trying to cause trouble. Seb's a wonderfully written and acted character and he fits well in the context of the story. He's just not my most favorite and I like discussions. A discussion may help me see the light, or perhaps help over-the-mooners see a few of his faults 

Modifié par Heidenreich, 07 août 2011 - 02:11 .

[rak72]

Is that what it is, do people have some sort of prejudice against Sebastian because he comes from a privileged background? You need to grow up in the hood to get any street cred. He was sent to the chantry when he was like 13, he wasn't sitting around on a chaise lounge eating bon bons at the family estate while the elven servants fanned him with palms. Plus, I don't think it matters if you're the wealthiest guy in world, if someone murdered your entire family, I think you would justifiably feel pretty miserable about it. No amount of money will take away your pain from that loss.

Sebastian is ok with magic as long as it "serves man" and "doesn't try to rule over him". It only becomes NOT ok when blood magic is being used and chantrys blown up. He happily helped my Hawk defend the mages from Merideth. If you cite his threat to go back and raise an army, at that point he seems to think Kirkwall is nothing but a bunch of malificar run amuck.

Throwing your old life behind and starting in a completely different direction is something that requires a lot of thought and shouldn't be a decision made rashly. He can't wake up one day and say, ok i'm going to retake Starkhaven today. He needs to gather allies, and that was what he was doing much of the 7 years.

And, revenge, he was never really against it. I don't think he considered Anders blowing up the chantry Anders' revenge. He just saw it as murder. I would even question if going after the mercenary group was really revenge. The only reason they didn't kill him yet was because he was tucked away in the chantry. They would have come after him eventually - it was many parts self defense as well.

[rak72]

Sebastian actually has a line where he is pondering if the war will be worth the lives lost. And running around with Hawk is taking down dangerous criminals, not killing innocents. He feels like he is doing something good there.

[Wulfram]

I think Sebastian's plot, like some of the romances, suffers a bit from the extended timescale of DA2.  It's a tough decision and taking time to think about it makes sense - but three years is really pushing it a bit.

[Chignon]

Heidenreich wrote...

Disclamer: I'm not trying to cause trouble. Seb's a wonderfully written and acted character and he fits well in the context of the story. He's just not my most favorite and I like discussions. A discussion may help me see the light, or perhaps help over-the-mooners see a few of his faults 

Over-the-mooners?

I doubt that only because we like Sebastian, we are unable to see his faults. One can like a character because of or/and despite his faults.

Edit

Wulfram wrote...

I think Sebastian's plot, like some of the romances, suffers a bit from the extended timescale of DA2.  It's a tough decision and taking time to think about it makes sense - but three years is really pushing it a bit.

I agree.

Modifié par Chignon, 07 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[Wulfram]

rak72 wrote...

Sebastian is ok with magic as long as it "serves man" and "doesn't try to rule over him".

Not that this stops him from thinking Hawke should be Viscount, which has always bothered me.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sebastian is ok with magic as long as it "serves man" and "doesn't try to rule over him".

Not that this stops him from thinking Hawke should be Viscount, which has always bothered me.

Yeah, that's pretty idiotic. Kirkwall's nobility begged mage Hawke to become viscount, too.

[rak72]

Wulfram wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sebastian is ok with magic as long as it "serves man" and "doesn't try to rule over him".

Not that this stops him from thinking Hawke should be Viscount, which has always bothered me.

I'm ok with that, he sees Hawk is responable with his/her magic.  Hawk wouldn't try to go all magister on Kirkwall, s/he would just be a regular ruler that happens to know magic.

[Chignon]

Wulfram wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sebastian is ok with magic as long as it "serves man" and "doesn't try to rule over him".

Not that this stops him from thinking Hawke should be Viscount, which has always bothered me.

I'd say it is an oversight and one of many at that. I always found it odd that s/he can become Viscount at all.

[rak72]

klarabella wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sebastian is ok with magic as long as it "serves man" and "doesn't try to rule over him".

Not that this stops him from thinking Hawke should be Viscount, which has always bothered me.

Yeah, that's pretty idiotic. Kirkwall's nobility begged mage Hawke to become viscount, too.

I'm sill wondering if the nobility has figured out Hawk is a mage yet.  I think they think the staff is a cool glowy walking stick.

[randomcheeses]

Heidenreich wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...

-snip-


You might want to keep in mind that he's deciding whether or not to start a war. His cousin or whoever the major power is in Starkhaven is not going to let him walk back in and take over just because he feels like being prince again. So if he does decide to retake Starkhaven, then relatively innocent people are going to die, and Sebastian will consider himself directly responsible for those deaths because he made the decision to take back the city. Personally I think he can be forgiven for waffling a bit. He's taking people's lives into account, after all.

Except I don't believe that's why he's doing it. He's not waffling because he's taking lives into account. He's waffling because he's scared that the Desire Demon might be right. Does he really want something bad enough that he's willing to throw away his life, which at that point he's come to like and accept? Is she right that all he really wants is power for powers sake? It feels very selfish to me. Either he stays with the chantry, where its safe and he's reletively happy and loved.. or he goes home and starts a war... and he worries that starting a war will only prove that he desires power.

And, if he  -is- in fact waffling because of other peoples lives, why would he willing agree to run around with Hawke, who kills people. Sure, she (he) may be doing it to protect XX person, or to stop slavery, or to <insert logical reason> here, but at the end of the day, it's still taking peoples lives.

So to me it comes off, again, as "It's okay, until its not".





Disclamer: I'm not trying to cause trouble. Seb's a wonderfully written and acted character and he fits well in the context of the story. He's just not my most favorite and I like discussions. A discussion may help me see the light, or perhaps help over-the-mooners see a few of his faults 

Except he specifically has a line about the fact that he doesn't want to risk other peoples lives and banter with Aveline where he admits that it wouldn't be right to go back to Starkhaven and lead people into war unless he's absolutely sure that it's the right thing to do.

Also the bit about him wanting to turn Merril and Anders over to the Templars? Is actually completely justified when you think about it. Sebastian has spent the last ten years or so in the chantry. Anders freely admits that he is an abomination and Merril, no matter how cute and adorable I personally think she is, is a practicing blood mage. If Sebastian didn't mention the possibility of telling the Templars about them, I'd think (a)bad writing or ( Hawke is using mind control on Seb.

And at the end of the game, Anders has committed an act of terrorism and Merril's use of blood magic (in the worst case scenario if you don't pick exactly the right dialogue) causes not only the death of the keeper but also forces her to kill her entire clan in self defense. A lot of innocent people would still be alive if Sebastian had turned them over to the Templars. The fact that he doesn't is either (a) rail-roading or ( proof of Sebastian's loyalty to Hawke.

For that matter, Sebastian's banter with Merrill never comes close to the abuse that Fenris and Anders hurl at her. He is nothing but polite and reasonable towards her. Yet he is the one who gets villified as a religious zealot. Believe me, that is not the case. If he were a zealot, the second he found out what both Anders and Merril were, he'd have attempted to kill them, friendship with Hawke or no.

Zealots can rarely be reasoned with. Sebastian on the other hand, is pretty damn reasonable right up until Anders murders his surrogate mother. So he's not a zealot and I wish people would stop throwing it around. Because to quote the Princess Bride: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Edited to add this, because there is not enough Seb art on this page.





by http://rabbitzoro.deviantart.com/
No, I don't know what they've been up to. Not sure I want to.

Modifié par randomcheeses, 07 août 2011 - 04:05 .