2724 réponses à ce sujet

[Heidenreich]

randomcheeses wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...

-snip-


You might want to keep in mind that he's deciding whether or not to start a war. His cousin or whoever the major power is in Starkhaven is not going to let him walk back in and take over just because he feels like being prince again. So if he does decide to retake Starkhaven, then relatively innocent people are going to die, and Sebastian will consider himself directly responsible for those deaths because he made the decision to take back the city. Personally I think he can be forgiven for waffling a bit. He's taking people's lives into account, after all.

Except I don't believe that's why he's doing it. He's not waffling because he's taking lives into account. He's waffling because he's scared that the Desire Demon might be right. Does he really want something bad enough that he's willing to throw away his life, which at that point he's come to like and accept? Is she right that all he really wants is power for powers sake? It feels very selfish to me. Either he stays with the chantry, where its safe and he's reletively happy and loved.. or he goes home and starts a war... and he worries that starting a war will only prove that he desires power.

And, if he  -is- in fact waffling because of other peoples lives, why would he willing agree to run around with Hawke, who kills people. Sure, she (he) may be doing it to protect XX person, or to stop slavery, or to <insert logical reason> here, but at the end of the day, it's still taking peoples lives.

So to me it comes off, again, as "It's okay, until its not".





Disclamer: I'm not trying to cause trouble. Seb's a wonderfully written and acted character and he fits well in the context of the story. He's just not my most favorite and I like discussions. A discussion may help me see the light, or perhaps help over-the-mooners see a few of his faults 

Except he specifically has a line about the fact that he doesn't want to risk other peoples lives and banter with Aveline where he admits that it wouldn't be right to go back to Starkhaven and lead people into war unless he's absolutely sure that it's the right thing to do.

Also the bit about him wanting to turn Merril and Anders over to the Templars? Is actually completely justified when you think about it. Sebastian has spent the last ten years or so in the chantry. Anders freely admits that he is an abomination and Merril, no matter how cute and adorable I personally think she is, is a practicing blood mage. If Sebastian didn't mention the possibility of telling the Templars about them, I'd think (a)bad writing or ( Hawke is using mind control on Seb.

And at the end of the game, Anders has committed an act of terrorism and Merril's use of blood magic (in the worst case scenario if you don't pick exactly the right dialogue) causes not only the death of the keeper but also forces her to kill her entire clan in self defense. A lot of innocent people would still be alive if Sebastian had turned them over to the Templars. The fact that he doesn't is either (a) rail-roading or ( proof of Sebastian's loyalty to Hawke.

For that matter, Sebastian's banter with Merrill never comes close to the abuse that Fenris and Anders hurl at her. He is nothing but polite and reasonable towards her. Yet he is the one who gets villified as a religious zealot. Believe me, that is not the case. If he were a zealot, the second he found out what both Anders and Merril were, he'd have attempted to kill them, friendship with Hawke or no.

Zealots can rarely be reasoned with. Sebastian on the other hand, is pretty damn reasonable right up until Anders murders his surrogate mother. So he's not a zealot and I wish people would stop throwing it around. Because to quote the Princess Bride: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

1. I never used the word Zealot, nor do I believe Sebastian to be one. I'm not even sure where you pulled that from at all. If anything I think, and am arguing that, Seb is less true to his beliefs then any other companion. He is very gung ho to throw away his vows in the name of Revenge and vengence. Then, he again throws away his drive to take back his city. He thinks a Pro-Mage/Mage Hawke should take vicount (which could, honestly, just have been lazyness on the part of the developers) despite his belief in Andraste's teachings. These things are tell-tale signs of someone who's very used to getting things that he wants with out really having to try.

2. I do remember that banter. That being said, that's a moment's thought to Aveline, and more then likely not the mode he would normally run on. To Aveline its very important to think of the people, because that's all she thinks of. On top of which, you don't get that banter until after he's met with the Desire Demon. Which lends me to believe that its a second-hand thought to pile on top of his reasoning. He could very well consider the lives of the townsfolk, but its a secondary afterthought, not his first reason. His first reason is "because the DD thinks I want it".

3. I never attacked his want/need to turn Anders or Merrill over. If anything he should want to do it -sooner-. I don't usually see that banter till act 3. Which means it takes him 4, almost 5 years before he's willing to even entertain the thought. Again, I'm arguing that he's less true to his beliefs.

4. I'm not, and I've mentioned it three times now which means you're not reading what I've written beyond "I don't enjoy the character much", bashing his reaction to Anders' act in the end of the game. It's the only time he feels true to his character for me. All of the rest of his game its "It's okay until its not". Once Anders blows up the chantry, he's forced into action, and should you chose -not- to kill Anders, he threatens the wrath of a city that's not yet his. Which is good, and true to his character.

[BlackLotus30]

Heidenreich wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...

-snip-


You might want to keep in mind that he's deciding whether or not to start a war. His cousin or whoever the major power is in Starkhaven is not going to let him walk back in and take over just because he feels like being prince again. So if he does decide to retake Starkhaven, then relatively innocent people are going to die, and Sebastian will consider himself directly responsible for those deaths because he made the decision to take back the city. Personally I think he can be forgiven for waffling a bit. He's taking people's lives into account, after all.

Except I don't believe that's why he's doing it. He's not waffling because he's taking lives into account. He's waffling because he's scared that the Desire Demon might be right. Does he really want something bad enough that he's willing to throw away his life, which at that point he's come to like and accept? Is she right that all he really wants is power for powers sake? It feels very selfish to me. Either he stays with the chantry, where its safe and he's reletively happy and loved.. or he goes home and starts a war... and he worries that starting a war will only prove that he desires power.

And, if he  -is- in fact waffling because of other peoples lives, why would he willing agree to run around with Hawke, who kills people. Sure, she (he) may be doing it to protect XX person, or to stop slavery, or to <insert logical reason> here, but at the end of the day, it's still taking peoples lives.

So to me it comes off, again, as "It's okay, until its not".





Disclamer: I'm not trying to cause trouble. Seb's a wonderfully written and acted character and he fits well in the context of the story. He's just not my most favorite and I like discussions. A discussion may help me see the light, or perhaps help over-the-mooners see a few of his faults 

Except he specifically has a line about the fact that he doesn't want to risk other peoples lives and banter with Aveline where he admits that it wouldn't be right to go back to Starkhaven and lead people into war unless he's absolutely sure that it's the right thing to do.

Also the bit about him wanting to turn Merril and Anders over to the Templars? Is actually completely justified when you think about it. Sebastian has spent the last ten years or so in the chantry. Anders freely admits that he is an abomination and Merril, no matter how cute and adorable I personally think she is, is a practicing blood mage. If Sebastian didn't mention the possibility of telling the Templars about them, I'd think (a)bad writing or ( Hawke is using mind control on Seb.

And at the end of the game, Anders has committed an act of terrorism and Merril's use of blood magic (in the worst case scenario if you don't pick exactly the right dialogue) causes not only the death of the keeper but also forces her to kill her entire clan in self defense. A lot of innocent people would still be alive if Sebastian had turned them over to the Templars. The fact that he doesn't is either (a) rail-roading or ( proof of Sebastian's loyalty to Hawke.

For that matter, Sebastian's banter with Merrill never comes close to the abuse that Fenris and Anders hurl at her. He is nothing but polite and reasonable towards her. Yet he is the one who gets villified as a religious zealot. Believe me, that is not the case. If he were a zealot, the second he found out what both Anders and Merril were, he'd have attempted to kill them, friendship with Hawke or no.

Zealots can rarely be reasoned with. Sebastian on the other hand, is pretty damn reasonable right up until Anders murders his surrogate mother. So he's not a zealot and I wish people would stop throwing it around. Because to quote the Princess Bride: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

1. I never used the word Zealot, nor do I believe Sebastian to be one. I'm not even sure where you pulled that from at all. If anything I think, and am arguing that, Seb is less true to his beliefs then any other companion. He is very gung ho to throw away his vows in the name of Revenge and vengence. Then, he again throws away his drive to take back his city. He thinks a Pro-Mage/Mage Hawke should take vicount (which could, honestly, just have been lazyness on the part of the developers) despite his belief in Andraste's teachings. These things are tell-tale signs of someone who's very used to getting things that he wants with out really having to try.

2. I do remember that banter. That being said, that's a moment's thought to Aveline, and more then likely not the mode he would normally run on. To Aveline its very important to think of the people, because that's all she thinks of. On top of which, you don't get that banter until after he's met with the Desire Demon. Which lends me to believe that its a second-hand thought to pile on top of his reasoning. He could very well consider the lives of the townsfolk, but its a secondary afterthought, not his first reason. His first reason is "because the DD thinks I want it".

3. I never attacked his want/need to turn Anders or Merrill over. If anything he should want to do it -sooner-. I don't usually see that banter till act 3. Which means it takes him 4, almost 5 years before he's willing to even entertain the thought. Again, I'm arguing that he's less true to his beliefs.

4. I'm not, and I've mentioned it three times now which means you're not reading what I've written beyond "I don't enjoy the character much", bashing his reaction to Anders' act in the end of the game. It's the only time he feels true to his character for me. All of the rest of his game its "It's okay until its not". Once Anders blows up the chantry, he's forced into action, and should you chose -not- to kill Anders, he threatens the wrath of a city that's not yet his. Which is good, and true to his character.

1) She NEVER said you used the word zealot either, it is jus that in general because Sebastian was a chantry lay brother and talk about his faith openly people go OMG ZEALOT! YOU S0X0R!! Sebastian. 

Merril, Varric, Isabela and Aveline don't hate Sebastian at all. Merrill doesn't have it in her to hate anything or anyone openly. Varric just doesn't find Sebastian interesting he's the more normal person in their group. Aveline doesn't like indesicive people and Sebastian is very much indesicive on what he should do about Starkhaven.  Isabela is Isabela she poke at people she does it with everyone in their group but that doesn't mean she hates them.  the only person that hates Sebastian is Anders.
 
Sorry but Sebastian does CARE about the innocent lives that will be lost if he decide to make a bid for the Throne and it doesn't matter about the DD... even if it ehat he secretly wants the Throne the fact that he thorn about speak alot for him.. DD is irelevent... Because he doesn't give into to them....

[Heidenreich]

BlackLotus30 wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...

-snip-


You might want to keep in mind that he's deciding whether or not to start a war. His cousin or whoever the major power is in Starkhaven is not going to let him walk back in and take over just because he feels like being prince again. So if he does decide to retake Starkhaven, then relatively innocent people are going to die, and Sebastian will consider himself directly responsible for those deaths because he made the decision to take back the city. Personally I think he can be forgiven for waffling a bit. He's taking people's lives into account, after all.

Except I don't believe that's why he's doing it. He's not waffling because he's taking lives into account. He's waffling because he's scared that the Desire Demon might be right. Does he really want something bad enough that he's willing to throw away his life, which at that point he's come to like and accept? Is she right that all he really wants is power for powers sake? It feels very selfish to me. Either he stays with the chantry, where its safe and he's reletively happy and loved.. or he goes home and starts a war... and he worries that starting a war will only prove that he desires power.

And, if he  -is- in fact waffling because of other peoples lives, why would he willing agree to run around with Hawke, who kills people. Sure, she (he) may be doing it to protect XX person, or to stop slavery, or to <insert logical reason> here, but at the end of the day, it's still taking peoples lives.

So to me it comes off, again, as "It's okay, until its not".





Disclamer: I'm not trying to cause trouble. Seb's a wonderfully written and acted character and he fits well in the context of the story. He's just not my most favorite and I like discussions. A discussion may help me see the light, or perhaps help over-the-mooners see a few of his faults 

Except he specifically has a line about the fact that he doesn't want to risk other peoples lives and banter with Aveline where he admits that it wouldn't be right to go back to Starkhaven and lead people into war unless he's absolutely sure that it's the right thing to do.

Also the bit about him wanting to turn Merril and Anders over to the Templars? Is actually completely justified when you think about it. Sebastian has spent the last ten years or so in the chantry. Anders freely admits that he is an abomination and Merril, no matter how cute and adorable I personally think she is, is a practicing blood mage. If Sebastian didn't mention the possibility of telling the Templars about them, I'd think (a)bad writing or ( Hawke is using mind control on Seb.

And at the end of the game, Anders has committed an act of terrorism and Merril's use of blood magic (in the worst case scenario if you don't pick exactly the right dialogue) causes not only the death of the keeper but also forces her to kill her entire clan in self defense. A lot of innocent people would still be alive if Sebastian had turned them over to the Templars. The fact that he doesn't is either (a) rail-roading or ( proof of Sebastian's loyalty to Hawke.

For that matter, Sebastian's banter with Merrill never comes close to the abuse that Fenris and Anders hurl at her. He is nothing but polite and reasonable towards her. Yet he is the one who gets villified as a religious zealot. Believe me, that is not the case. If he were a zealot, the second he found out what both Anders and Merril were, he'd have attempted to kill them, friendship with Hawke or no.

Zealots can rarely be reasoned with. Sebastian on the other hand, is pretty damn reasonable right up until Anders murders his surrogate mother. So he's not a zealot and I wish people would stop throwing it around. Because to quote the Princess Bride: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

1. I never used the word Zealot, nor do I believe Sebastian to be one. I'm not even sure where you pulled that from at all. If anything I think, and am arguing that, Seb is less true to his beliefs then any other companion. He is very gung ho to throw away his vows in the name of Revenge and vengence. Then, he again throws away his drive to take back his city. He thinks a Pro-Mage/Mage Hawke should take vicount (which could, honestly, just have been lazyness on the part of the developers) despite his belief in Andraste's teachings. These things are tell-tale signs of someone who's very used to getting things that he wants with out really having to try.

2. I do remember that banter. That being said, that's a moment's thought to Aveline, and more then likely not the mode he would normally run on. To Aveline its very important to think of the people, because that's all she thinks of. On top of which, you don't get that banter until after he's met with the Desire Demon. Which lends me to believe that its a second-hand thought to pile on top of his reasoning. He could very well consider the lives of the townsfolk, but its a secondary afterthought, not his first reason. His first reason is "because the DD thinks I want it".

3. I never attacked his want/need to turn Anders or Merrill over. If anything he should want to do it -sooner-. I don't usually see that banter till act 3. Which means it takes him 4, almost 5 years before he's willing to even entertain the thought. Again, I'm arguing that he's less true to his beliefs.

4. I'm not, and I've mentioned it three times now which means you're not reading what I've written beyond "I don't enjoy the character much", bashing his reaction to Anders' act in the end of the game. It's the only time he feels true to his character for me. All of the rest of his game its "It's okay until its not". Once Anders blows up the chantry, he's forced into action, and should you chose -not- to kill Anders, he threatens the wrath of a city that's not yet his. Which is good, and true to his character.

1) She NEVER said you used the word zealot either, it is jus that in general because Sebastian was a chantry lay brother and talk about his faith openly people go OMG ZEALOT! YOU S0X0R!! Sebastian. 

Merril, Varric, Isabela and Aveline don't hate Sebastian at all. Merrill doesn't have it in her to hate anything or anyone openly. Varric just doesn't find Sebastian interesting he's the more normal person in their group. Aveline doesn't like indesicive people and Sebastian is very much indesicive on what he should do about Starkhaven.  Isabela is Isabela she poke at people she does it with everyone in their group but that doesn't mean she hates them.  the only person that hates Sebastian is Anders.
 
Sorry but Sebastian does CARE about the innocent lives that will be lost if he decide to make a bid for the Throne and it doesn't matter about the DD... even if it ehat he secretly wants the Throne the fact that he thorn about speak alot for him.. DD is irelevent... Because he doesn't give into to them....

Actually from what I got from the Aveline/Sebastian banter is that she rather dislikes him. Obviously she doesn't hate him. I mean, no one hates each other except Fenris and Anders. But again, I never said the other companions hated him. I only said I personally found him to be annoying, because he is very much a spoiled prince who lives by the creed of "It's okay, until its not (me)".

The DD isn't irrelevent, because its the soul reason why he changes his mind about making a bid for his
throne. If it wasn't the soul reason, it wouldn't have been placed in
the game at all.  In fact he tells Hawke that the whole thing's opened
his eyes, that perhaps his bid was more then just because he was the
last heir, and that it bothers him. Giving in or rather lack
there of has little to do with the fact that the whole thing bothered
him enough for him to back-peddle faster then a teenager caught sneeking
out of a bedroom window.

He may, second-handedly, care about other peoples lives, but only after he cares about himself. Previous to this event he could give two rats patoots about other peoples lives. He only wants his throne that is rightfully his by birth. Once he gets slapped in the face with the truth of the matter, he back-peddles and spends the rest of his time in Kirkwall picking on Anders(mind you, deservedly for the most part) and trying to Convert Fenris and Merrill. Oh, and.. trying to make a Mage!Hawke Vicount, which totally doesn't go against his beliefs or anything.



As for the rest.. you need to breath. It's okay. I'm not attacking Sebastian. He's a well written character in a world created just for well written characters. I'm simply giving an opinion in hopes of friendly discussion. If anything I'm hoping you folks change my mind. But, hand waving his faults is silly. It's a big portion of the reason I don't visit the Fenris thread anymore.

I love Fenris, but I love him for his faults as much as his good points. The Anders thread is 2000 pages long, and its full to the brim of discussions picking apart every last detail of his good and bads. It's what makes us love him, because he's a "person" rather then just a two dementional character.

I'm hoping you folks can make Seb be more then just a 2d character for me. Thus, why I'm here.

[rak72]

I think your mind is made up and you just see what you want to see about him. We went on for a couple of pages why we disagree with you, but you keep coming back to him being a spoiled rich brat. Just because someone likes fox hunts doesn't make him a bad person. Sebastian never had anything handed to him on a platter. He was sent to the chantry before he was even old enough to pull his grandfathers bow. He is a person that weighs his decisions carefully and tries to do what is right - I admire that about him.

This moon-beam has her mind made up

Edit - and I find his firey temper sexy

Modifié par rak72, 08 août 2011 - 02:54 .

[Jennifer Brandes Hepler]

You're definitely not wrong about Sebastian's less-than-firm committment to, well, anything. I always saw him as the least mature of the followers. He's absolutely been sheltered his whole life, first as a prince, and then as a monk -- you can't possibly have less exposure to reality than that combo.

But I do think he is a genuinely kind, warm, giving person who wants to do the right thing. It's funny how people call him a zealot just because he's personally religious, even though he's hardly as strong in his beliefs as almost anyone else in the group. He believes sincerely in the goodness of the Maker, and has found happiness through the Chantry that he wants to share. But he's pretty liberal in his interpretations of what is and isn't the work of the Maker -- even to the point where he'll accept that the Dalish Creators might be another term for the same god.

I think Elthina sees his potential as a good and just man, but also the immaturity and flightiness that holds him back. She hopes that Hawke will help him grow into the man that joining the Chantry kind of stunted him from becoming. Either he will truly commit to the Chantry, or he will truly commit to Starkhaven. Of course, the real event which forces him to cut the apron strings and stand on his own is at the very end of the game, so we haven't seen the consequences yet.

[Giggles_Manically]

Interesting.

I always did see the end game as what would define Sebastian.

[Sinaxi]

I'm going to throw this out there. "Religious-wise" it's not a "religious" thing to just want to instantly condemn someone to death no matter what their crime was. Most "religious" people think that they should be held accountable, but not killed. I believe that to be the case even in Thedas. But that's I guess a matter of interpretation.

Sebastian gets pissed off at Hawke if they choose to not kill Anders, and to top it off he goes:
"No! You cannot let this abomination walk free. He dies, or I am returning to Starkhaven and I will bring such an army with me on my return that there will be nothing left of Kirkwall for these maleficarum to rule."
Then...
"I swear to you, I will come back and find your precious Anders. I will teach him what true justice is."

If you don't think that is a cut and dry case of wanting revenge then I'd love to see how you spin that. That is an instant condemnation, and a person who is not weighing his decisions carefully at all in that moment. It is totally understandable though, given he is traumatized by what just happened but to say that he is willing to "weigh his decisions and try to do what it is right" all the time isn't always correct because he doesn't really do it in that scene. He is blatantly inferring that he is wanting to pretty much come back and wreck Kirkwall to pieces. All of this is an act of anger, but you can tell that he means it. He has not weighed any decisions whatsoever in that moment. He wants Anders dead, or otherwise he will let all hell break loose. I don't think any character is as black and white as we might want them to be, and in that moment he is definitely not in the right frame of mind.

Modifié par Tidra, 08 août 2011 - 03:23 .

[Nhadalie]

I never got the idea that Aveline liked or disliked Sebastian. She came across as disapproving of him, but not hostile towards him. I always got the feeling that she thought due to him being highborn, he'd end up causing trouble somewhere along the line that she would have to clean up.

• Aveline: So you’re a prince, are you?
• Sebastian: That is apparently true.
• Aveline: There’s doubt?
• Sebastian: I've accepted the burden. That’s all that matters. Why do you ask, Guard-Captain?
• Aveline: The entitled types are always trouble.
• Sebastian: In that case, I’m glad I don’t count myself as one.
• Aveline: They never do.

• Sebastian: You don't like me, Guard-Captain?
• Aveline: I've no issue, so long as the fight over your title remains in Starkhaven. Exactly like it hasn't.
• Sebastian: Should I apologize for trying to take back what is rightfully mine?
• Aveline: Whatever it takes? No matter the cost?
• Sebastian: It feels like your're blaming me for some personal experience of yours.
• Aveline: I was at Ostagar. Good people die when leaders "do whatever it takes."
• Sebastian: Good people know the necessity.

Sebastian falls back into the "princely" role far too easily for him to be lacking the noble sense of entitlement that he grew up with. He expects that the people will fall into line, and help him retake Starkhaven. And perhaps they will. I never got the feeling that the people of Starkhaven were his first concern if he decided to take it back. Yes, he mentions them once or twice. But we also know that he's always wanted to be prince, and was even jealous of his brothers when he was younger. Things like that don't simply fade away entirely, even if he is more mature now. The fact that he threatens to march an army through Kirkwall just because of Anders shows that he doesn't always think of other people. It's kind of like how Meredith decided to Annul the circle because Anders blew up the Chantry. Except Meredith has the whole insanity defense due to the idol. That isn't to say that he's a bad person, just that it's a more complicated decision than "What's the best thing to do?". Desires always complicate what someone thinks they should do.

Does his reaction make sense? Yes. Especially if you consider his upbringing. Nothing he's done in all of DA2 has been done on his own. He requires the backing of other people to do his bidding in any given situation. Which fits with him being a nobleman. But is it logical in any way? No. Sebby is very passionate, and he's still ruled by his whims. Which is a good and bad thing. In the friendship path, Sebby decides to stay in the Chantry, and wants to retake his vows as a brother. But Elthina is smart enough to tell him no. She realizes that every time something big happens, Sebastian will run off in whatever direction he feels is best. That doesn't make a strong commitment to the Chantry, and his vows. That's why she refuses him when he asks to rejoin as a brother.

It definitely makes for an interesting character though. And it makes me wonder what will happen with him and Hawke in the future. I think the friendmance is a better path for both Sebby and Hawke. Sebastian holds to the ideas, and the virtues that the Chantry taught him. He is more understanding, committed, and mature than he would be otherwise. But I can't forsee them continuing a chaste marriage, and I rather doubt most Hawkes will stick to whatever vows they made for it. I think they're likely to end up in a regular marriage. Perhaps with Hawke giving him some heirs.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 08 août 2011 - 03:40 .

[rak72]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

You're definitely not wrong about Sebastian's less-than-firm committment to, well, anything. I always saw him as the least mature of the followers. He's absolutely been sheltered his whole life, first as a prince, and then as a monk -- you can't possibly have less exposure to reality than that combo.

But I do think he is a genuinely kind, warm, giving person who wants to do the right thing. It's funny how people call him a zealot just because he's personally religious, even though he's hardly as strong in his beliefs as almost anyone else in the group. He believes sincerely in the goodness of the Maker, and has found happiness through the Chantry that he wants to share. But he's pretty liberal in his interpretations of what is and isn't the work of the Maker -- even to the point where he'll accept that the Dalish Creators might be another term for the same god.

I think Elthina sees his potential as a good and just man, but also the immaturity and flightiness that holds him back. She hopes that Hawke will help him grow into the man that joining the Chantry kind of stunted him from becoming. Either he will truly commit to the Chantry, or he will truly commit to Starkhaven. Of course, the real event which forces him to cut the apron strings and stand on his own is at the very end of the game, so we haven't seen the consequences yet.

Hopefully those consequences will be a not so chaste marriage

Thank youfor stopping by, Jennifer.  It's always nice to get the wrighters perspective on their character.

[rak72]

Tidra wrote...

I'm going to throw this out there. "Religious-wise" it's not a "religious" thing to just want to instantly condemn someone to death no matter what their crime was. Most "religious" people think that they should be held accountable, but not killed. I believe that to be the case even in Thedas. But that's I guess a matter of interpretation.

Sebastian gets pissed off at Hawke if they choose to not kill Anders, and to top it off he goes:
"No! You cannot let this abomination walk free. He dies, or I am returning to Starkhaven and I will bring such an army with me on my return that there will be nothing left of Kirkwall for these maleficarum to rule."
Then...
"I swear to you, I will come back and find your precious Anders. I will teach him what true justice is."

If you don't think that is a cut and dry case of wanting revenge then I'd love to see how you spin that. That is an instant condemnation, and a person who is not weighing his decisions carefully at all in that moment. It is totally understandable though, given he is traumatized by what just happened but to say that he is willing to "weigh his decisions and try to do what it is right" all the time isn't always correct because he doesn't really do it in that scene. He is blatantly inferring that he is wanting to pretty much come back and wreck Kirkwall to pieces. All of this is an act of anger, but you can tell that he means it. He has not weighed any decisions whatsoever in that moment. He wants Anders dead, or otherwise he will let all hell break loose. I don't think any character is as black and white as we might want them to be, and in that moment he is definitely not in the right frame of mind.

He sees Anders as a dangerous abomination, of course he should be killed.  He also believes that Kirkwall will fall to all of the Maleficarum so it needs to be taken care of.    Thats my spin.

We all know Sebastian likes his revenge/justice, But I can't see how people are cool with what Anders does, and condem  Sebastian wanting dangerous guilty parties to pay for their crimes.

[Heidenreich]

rak72 wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

You're definitely not wrong about Sebastian's less-than-firm committment to, well, anything. I always saw him as the least mature of the followers. He's absolutely been sheltered his whole life, first as a prince, and then as a monk -- you can't possibly have less exposure to reality than that combo.

But I do think he is a genuinely kind, warm, giving person who wants to do the right thing. It's funny how people call him a zealot just because he's personally religious, even though he's hardly as strong in his beliefs as almost anyone else in the group. He believes sincerely in the goodness of the Maker, and has found happiness through the Chantry that he wants to share. But he's pretty liberal in his interpretations of what is and isn't the work of the Maker -- even to the point where he'll accept that the Dalish Creators might be another term for the same god.

I think Elthina sees his potential as a good and just man, but also the immaturity and flightiness that holds him back. She hopes that Hawke will help him grow into the man that joining the Chantry kind of stunted him from becoming. Either he will truly commit to the Chantry, or he will truly commit to Starkhaven. Of course, the real event which forces him to cut the apron strings and stand on his own is at the very end of the game, so we haven't seen the consequences yet.

Hopefully those consequences will be a not so chaste marriage

Thank youfor stopping by, Jennifer.  It's always nice to get the wrighters perspective on their character.

SEE

I never said he wasn't a good person, I just said he was a spoiled rich kid who runs on the "its okay, till its not" mentality. And Miss Helper agrees

[rak72]

Sheltered, not spoiled very different. My mother kept me very sheltered when I was growing up, and believe me, I was not spoiled.

[Heidenreich]

rak72 wrote...


He sees Anders as a dangerous abomination, of course he should be killed.  He also believes that Kirkwall will fall to all of the Maleficarum so it needs to be taken care of.

 

Actually he doesn't see that at all. He see's Anders as a mage, then later learns he's an abomnination, and then sugests that he and Fenris go turn him into the KC. Then, later on he see's him blow up the chantry and is understandbly upset by it.
  

Thats my spin.

Spin it all you want, that's not what happens.

We all know Sebastian likes his revenge/justice, But I can't see how people are cool with what Anders does, and condem  Sebastian wanting dangerous guilty parties to pay for their crimes.

I'm not sure anyone, at least in the last few pages of this tread, have condemed Seb for being angry with Anders. If anything I know I've repetedly said it's his one shining moment as a character. He actually sticks up for what he beleives in for the first time since we meet him.

Trust me when I say, no one is ever "cool" with what Anders did. We just.. understand his point of view?... yea, that's about the best way to explain it. We've picked it apart from a thousand different angles, and can see his side of it enough to understand, even if we don't nessisarly condone ;p

[Heidenreich]

rak72 wrote...

Sheltered, not spoiled very different. My mother kept me very sheltered when I was growing up, and believe me, I was not spoiled.

He's a prince, if he wasn't spoiled then his parents were doing it wrong.


I mean, heck, he tells us pretty much word for word that his father pulled him by the scruff of his neck out of the local **** house and said "not my son!" and tossed him to the chantry to put some maturity on them bones. It's pretty much led on by Seb that he took the "rich and handsome prince" deal a step or two farther then his family was happy with.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 08 août 2011 - 03:53 .

[Nhadalie]

rak72 wrote...

He sees Anders as a dangerous abomination, of course he should be killed.  He also believes that Kirkwall will fall to all of the Maleficarum so it needs to be taken care of.    Thats my spin.

We all know Sebastian likes his revenge/justice, But I can't see how people are cool with what Anders does, and condem  Sebastian wanting dangerous guilty parties to pay for their crimes.

The problem is that Sebastian doesn't show any understanding in the situation. He wants to condemn an entire city full of people for one man's actions. He could've killed Anders on his own in that situation, or attempted to. But he didn't. Instead he decided to declare that he would make complete strangers suffer for Anders's actions.


I haven't spoken to a single person that thinks what Anders did was okay. Anders committed a terrible injustice that killed, and injured innocent people. He may have been correct that the Chantry would have supported Meredith, and the templars, and things never would've changed. But that does not justify his actions. Hawke has no chance to suggest alternatives beyond killing him, letting him walk free, and taking him with them. He/she doesn't have a moment to tell Sebby that Anders will not be walking away free from his actions. Sebby puts Hawke into the position where he/she must be a judge and executioner. Some people may feel that Sebastian should have taken action himself, instead of threatening to take an army to Kirkwall, which would be toppled by any kind of battle at this point.

It's not the well thought out reaction of an understandably upset man. It's a threat that he will do anything in his power to make sure that Anders is dead, and that he doesn't care who he takes with him. It's a dangerous way of thinking. And I can't wait to see how they'll handle people that didn't kill Anders.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 08 août 2011 - 03:57 .

[Ryzaki]

..You would think no one here ever said anything in a fight of anger that was ridiculous when they actually thought about it
* 

I threatened to kill my mother once. I sure in hell didn't do so. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 03:58 .

[rak72]

Heidenreich wrote...

rak72 wrote...


He sees Anders as a dangerous abomination, of course he should be killed.  He also believes that Kirkwall will fall to all of the Maleficarum so it needs to be taken care of.

 

Actually he doesn't see that at all. He see's Anders as a mage, then later learns he's an abomnination, and then sugests that he and Fenris go turn him into the KC. Then, later on he see's him blow up the chantry and is understandbly upset by it.
  

Thats my spin.

Spin it all you want, that's not what happens.

We all know Sebastian likes his revenge/justice, But I can't see how people are cool with what Anders does, and condem  Sebastian wanting dangerous guilty parties to pay for their crimes.

I'm not sure anyone, at least in the last few pages of this tread, have condemed Seb for being angry with Anders. If anything I know I've repetedly said it's his one shining moment as a character. He actually sticks up for what he beleives in for the first time since we meet him.

Trust me when I say, no one is ever "cool" with what Anders did. We just.. understand his point of view?... yea, that's about the best way to explain it. We've picked it apart from a thousand different angles, and can see his side of it enough to understand, even if we don't nessisarly condone ;p

He  sees Anders the abomination blow up the chantry - obviously he is dangerous, past the point of no return, and needs to be stopped.  Plus Seb wants his revenge/justice.  So, I don't understand why you don't think Sebastian thinks he's a dangerous abomination.  Plus, in that line  quoted from Seb he says  Kirkwall is being taken over by Malefacarum, so again, I'm not seeing why you don't think Seb sees this.

[rak72]

Heidenreich wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sheltered, not spoiled very different. My mother kept me very sheltered when I was growing up, and believe me, I was not spoiled.

He's a prince, if he wasn't spoiled then his parents were doing it wrong.


I mean, heck, he tells us pretty much word for word that his father pulled him by the scruff of his neck out of the local **** house and said "not my son!" and tossed him to the chantry to put some maturity on them bones. It's pretty much led on by Seb that he took the "rich and handsome prince" deal a step or two farther then his family was happy with.

I have to say, and maybe if Jennifer is still around she can clarify, a lot of us are confused by this.  He was sent to the chantry at about 13yrs by our estimates.  Was he boozing and sleeping around already, or are we not seeing this timeline correctly.

[Heidenreich]

rak72 wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

rak72 wrote...


He sees Anders as a dangerous abomination, of course he should be killed.  He also believes that Kirkwall will fall to all of the Maleficarum so it needs to be taken care of.

 

Actually he doesn't see that at all. He see's Anders as a mage, then later learns he's an abomnination, and then sugests that he and Fenris go turn him into the KC. Then, later on he see's him blow up the chantry and is understandbly upset by it.
  

Thats my spin.

Spin it all you want, that's not what happens.

We all know Sebastian likes his revenge/justice, But I can't see how people are cool with what Anders does, and condem  Sebastian wanting dangerous guilty parties to pay for their crimes.

I'm not sure anyone, at least in the last few pages of this tread, have condemed Seb for being angry with Anders. If anything I know I've repetedly said it's his one shining moment as a character. He actually sticks up for what he beleives in for the first time since we meet him.

Trust me when I say, no one is ever "cool" with what Anders did. We just.. understand his point of view?... yea, that's about the best way to explain it. We've picked it apart from a thousand different angles, and can see his side of it enough to understand, even if we don't nessisarly condone ;p

He  sees Anders the abomination blow up the chantry - obviously he is dangerous, past the point of no return, and needs to be stopped.  Plus Seb wants his revenge/justice.  So, I don't understand why you don't think Sebastian thinks he's a dangerous abomination.  Plus, in that line  quoted from Seb he says  Kirkwall is being taken over by Malefacarum, so again, I'm not seeing why you don't think Seb sees this.

Oh I'm not saying he doesn't see that in that exact moment. I'm saying it takes him 5 years to see it. Which to say, I may have misread your post. I keep seeing you say that you see anders in such a mannor and thus Seb must also see this. Might be in the way you present the thought, but I'm just nitpicking now really



I.. don't recall Seb talking about Malefacarum. I just remember telling Seb to eff off, because my Hawke doesn't like being threatend by a man who can't make up his mind...  and then killing Anders anyways (to be fair it was my "love/lost" playthrough with my rogue!hawke)

[Heidenreich]

rak72 wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sheltered, not spoiled very different. My mother kept me very sheltered when I was growing up, and believe me, I was not spoiled.

He's a prince, if he wasn't spoiled then his parents were doing it wrong.


I mean, heck, he tells us pretty much word for word that his father pulled him by the scruff of his neck out of the local **** house and said "not my son!" and tossed him to the chantry to put some maturity on them bones. It's pretty much led on by Seb that he took the "rich and handsome prince" deal a step or two farther then his family was happy with.

I have to say, and maybe if Jennifer is still around she can clarify, a lot of us are confused by this.  He was sent to the chantry at about 13yrs by our estimates.  Was he boozing and sleeping around already, or are we not seeing this timeline correctly.

Didn't he say he was 15? *digs through the wiki*

In any case, I'm going to bed now ;p Feel free to return to your regular scheduel of adorable screeenshots and fanfiction ;x

Modifié par Heidenreich, 08 août 2011 - 04:09 .

[rak72]

Tidra has his quote about the malef. up there:

"No! You cannot let this abomination walk free. He dies, or I am returning to Starkhaven and I will bring such an army with me on my return that there will be nothing left of Kirkwall for these maleficarum to rule."

I don't think he realizes that Anders is past the point of no return until the chantry.

Plus, he is a man that lost his family, lost his surrogate mom, Hawk is all he has left. If Hawk turns his back on him now, everyone that was ever important to him is gone & he looses it.

He also makes a good point with his "what if I were in the chantry". It's pretty cold if Hawk didn't give a ratts butt if he got blow to smitherines as well.

[rak72]

Heidenreich wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sheltered, not spoiled very different. My mother kept me very sheltered when I was growing up, and believe me, I was not spoiled.

He's a prince, if he wasn't spoiled then his parents were doing it wrong.


I mean, heck, he tells us pretty much word for word that his father pulled him by the scruff of his neck out of the local **** house and said "not my son!" and tossed him to the chantry to put some maturity on them bones. It's pretty much led on by Seb that he took the "rich and handsome prince" deal a step or two farther then his family was happy with.

I have to say, and maybe if Jennifer is still around she can clarify, a lot of us are confused by this.  He was sent to the chantry at about 13yrs by our estimates.  Was he boozing and sleeping around already, or are we not seeing this timeline correctly.

Didn't he say he was 15? *digs through the wiki*

In any case, I'm going to bed now ;p Feel free to return to your regular scheduel of adorable screeenshots and fanfiction ;x

15? still pretty bad, but feasable.  Especially considering my sister's class was banned from field trips for the rest of highschool when they were in 7th grade for similar behavior.

[berelinde]

rak72 wrote...
He  sees Anders the abomination blow up the chantry - obviously he is dangerous, past the point of no return, and needs to be stopped.  Plus Seb wants his revenge/justice.  So, I don't understand why you don't think Sebastian thinks he's a dangerous abomination.  Plus, in that line  quoted from Seb he says  Kirkwall is being taken over by Malefacarum, so again, I'm not seeing why you don't think Seb sees this.

He never actually says that to Anders. In fact, he is the only companion that never once refers to Anders as an abomination. Even Merrill does it. Here are his banters, if you won't believe me:


ACT II

• Anders: Is that supposed to be Andraste's face on your crotch?
• Sebastian: What?
• Anders: That... belt buckle thing. Is that Andraste?
• Sebastian: My father had this armor commissioned when I took my vows as a brother.
• Anders: I'm just not sure I'd want the Maker seeing me shove His bride's head between my legs every morning.

───────

• Anders: So, you were invested as a brother in the chantry, right?
• Sebastian: I had just taken my vows when I learned my family was killed.
• Anders: But you... gave sermons and took confessions and such, right?
• Sebastian: Do you have something you wish to confess?
• Anders: I just want to know, what do you say when people have questions?
• Anders: What's your answer when someone asks, "so if Andraste preached freedom and ended slavery, why do you lock up mages and keep them as slaves?"
• Sebastian: No one ever asked that.

───────

• Sebastian: You seem very angry.
• Anders: And here I thought the Chantry was against mind-reading.
• Sebastian: Did something happen to you in the Circle? I understand there were problems in Ferelden...
• Anders: Are you saying a mage can only be unhappy in the Circle if demons were involved?
• Anders: No, it's not about Uldred. It's not about being beaten or raped by a templar— that does happen, but I've been fortunate.
• Anders: It' s a larger principle: the freedom every man, woman, and child born in Thedas have as a natural right.
• Sebastian: You were given to the Circle. I was given to the Chantry. Hawke was driven away from home by the Darkspawn.
• Sebastian: None of us are free.

───────
If you complete Dissent

• Sebastian: So your "Tranquil Solution" was hardly the holocaust you imagined.
• Anders: You've been seeking revenge for the death of one family for as long as I've known you.
• Anders: Are you honestly judging me for trying to save the lives of every mage in Thedas?
• Sebastian: But they were never threatened. It was a single man's lunacy.
• Sebastian: The Chantry would never follow through with such a thing.
• Anders: Yet.

───────
ACT III

• Anders: How can you keep standing up for her?
• Sebastian: Who?
• Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric.
• Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise—
• Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands.
• Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done.
• Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth.

───────

• Sebastian: You've made no secret of your intent to lead the mages here in revolution.
• Anders: Well, I've tried not to shout it from the rooftops. You've just been around when I talk with my friends.
• Sebastian: Well, as we have mutual friends—who for some reason don't want you to get hurt—let me tell you this:
• Sebastian: If you go forward with this revolt, the Chantry will bring its full might to bear. They will kill you.
• Anders: Andraste was killed. That doesn't mean she failed.
• Sebastian: Do not compare yourself to Andraste.

───────

• Anders: Go ahead. Say it.
• Sebastian: Say what?
• Anders: I saw you watching me.
• Sebastian: I was looking at the clouds.
• Anders: Don't give me that. I know you've been judging me.
• Anders: You think I'm out of control. How can I claim to speak for mages when I'm half demon myself?
• Sebastian: The one over there looks a bit like a bunny rabbit.

If Merrill is in the party:

• Merrill: I saw that too!

───────

• Anders: How can you have so much faith? Does nothing bother you?
• Sebastian: You're bothering me.
• Anders: The Maker left us to our own devices generations ago.
• Anders: He's never going to step back in, start listening to our prayers again. He's gone.
• Anders: Doesn't that bother you?
• Sebastian: He's a merciful lord. He could have destroyed our world when we failed Him, but instead He gave us a chance at redemption.
• Sebastian: Should we not be joyful?

───────
LEGACY

• Anders: You really believe that magisters trespassing in the Maker's city made the first Darkspawn?
• Sebastian: I suppose you have another theory?
• Anders: The Darkspawn live in the Deep Roads, they respond to the call of the Old Gods. Why would we think they have anything to do with humans? or the Maker at all?
• Sebastian: Before Tevinter there where no Darkspawn, there are written records. Do you think its just coincidence they appear when they did?
• Anders: I don't think its a coincidence that the people the Chantry blames are the same ones that they're trying to oppress.
• Sebastian: I think you're getting it backwards

Players may feel that Anders is a dangerous abomination and deserves death, and that's certainly one way to look at it, but Sebastian never says it. Regardless of what he says to Fenris about turning Anders in, Sebastian's behavior towards Anders himself is fairly cordial. Anders does not return the favor, but that is irrelevant.

Sebastian wants to exact vengeance/justice/retribution, whatever, on the single person who murdered the most important person in his life. That is not an ignoble idea. His plans to execute that idea are open to debate, but I don't think anybody blames him for wanting Anders dead. Of all the people that are present in that moment, Sebastian is the only one who correctly identifies Anders as the one responsible for the crime Anders commited. He's all "Kill Anders, Grrr," but I doubt Meredith was happy to hear Sebastian talk that way. She wanted the Rite of Annulment. Anders gave her an excuse. She would lose that excuse and lose public support if she made Anders pay for his crimes direclty. I like to imagine Meredith's thought bubble saying "Shutupshutupshutupshutup" as Sebastian makes his speech. Because it doesn't further her own plans.

[rak72]

"No! You cannot let this abomination walk free. He dies, or I am returning to Starkhaven and I will bring such an army with me on my return that there will be nothing left of Kirkwall for these maleficarum to rule."

Edit - in all of those banters he is being very nice, polite, patient and reasonable.  He justifiably gets pissed off at the end and everyone condems him for being an out of controll lunatic.  I don't get people.

Anyway - 'night

Modifié par rak72, 08 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[berelinde]

After the fact, he could call Anders anything he chose. Abomination can also mean a person who is an affront to humanity, which would be kind of logical, given Sebastian's emotional state at the time. Granted, he probably does mean it in the "cohabitating with a demon" kind of way, but he never cared a whit about it until Elthina was dead. And the article "these" is plural even if "maleficarum" is ambiguous. If he were referring to Anders, specificially, he would have said "this".

We're splitting hairs. Is it so bad for Sebastian to want to avenge a friend, mentor, and mother-figure?