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[rak72]

berelinde wrote...

After the fact, he could call Anders anything he chose. Abomination can also mean a person who is an affront to humanity, which would be kind of logical, given Sebastian's emotional state at the time. Granted, he probably does mean it in the "cohabitating with a demon" kind of way, but he never cared a whit about it until Elthina was dead. And the article "these" is plural even if "maleficarum" is ambiguous. If he were referring to Anders, specificially, he would have said "this".

We're splitting hairs. Is it so bad for Sebastian to want to avenge a friend, mentor, and mother-figure?

Not at all, I agree with him, but there are more reasons than revenge. And a lot of people do get ticked off with him for it while a lot worse things were being done by others the entire story.  

Modifié par rak72, 08 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Nhadalie]

It's all a matter of perspective. People sometimes overlook things that characters they favor have done. It happens.

I like seeing all sides of a situation, personally. I like that Sebastian forces the issue, and continues to act in character throughout the entire thing. Does that mean we should ignore the reasons why he acts that way, and how it can be construed? Not everyone is going to see Sebby as being justified in wanting Anders dead, or in threatening to destroy Kirkwall to kill him. Some people will hear Sebby make those threats and think "I'm sorry.. Who are you again? How are you supposed to be more important to me than Anders when you didn't participate in several of the bigger quests?"

Anders has had far more time in the games to become a fan favorite, and he's had a lot more of his character fleshed out across Awakening and DA2. Sebastian's story hasn't been completed yet, and I think that he'll be much more popular once it has been.

Sebby is an interesting character, and I'm sure with time he'll be fleshed out fully. I'm hoping that for characters that don't kill Anders, they'll get some sort of conclusion with Sebastian. Perhaps a "Anders isn't getting away with what he did. I will never let him forget it." or an option to point out that Anders is going on trial, or something similar. Or if they romanced Anders, an opportunity to explain that you couldn't bring yourself to kill him.I think that Sebastian in a friendship path will be more open to these possibilities. But until his story is finished, that's all they are. Possibilities. And for some people, potential isn't enough.

Unfortunately most people aren't as insane as I am, with hundreds of little mental stories and ideas of what happens, and how things happened.

[BlackLotus30]

<----- This is the proof that when Anders blows up the Chantry that Sebastian truly believe Anders became is Abomination. Because he knew about Anders and Justice and as per Chantry teaching if your possessed by a Demon or a Good Spirit there is not distinction your an Abomination, it make no difference. Wynne is also an Abomination in the eyes of the chantry.

[LessThanKate]

Tidra wrote...

I'm going to throw this out there. "Religious-wise" it's not a "religious" thing to just want to instantly condemn someone to death no matter what their crime was. Most "religious" people think that they should be held accountable, but not killed. I believe that to be the case even in Thedas. But that's I guess a matter of interpretation.

Sebastian gets pissed off at Hawke if they choose to not kill Anders, and to top it off he goes:
"No! You cannot let this abomination walk free. He dies, or I am returning to Starkhaven and I will bring such an army with me on my return that there will be nothing left of Kirkwall for these maleficarum to rule."
Then...
"I swear to you, I will come back and find your precious Anders. I will teach him what true justice is."

If you don't think that is a cut and dry case of wanting revenge then I'd love to see how you spin that. That is an instant condemnation, and a person who is not weighing his decisions carefully at all in that moment. It is totally understandable though, given he is traumatized by what just happened but to say that he is willing to "weigh his decisions and try to do what it is right" all the time isn't always correct because he doesn't really do it in that scene. He is blatantly inferring that he is wanting to pretty much come back and wreck Kirkwall to pieces. All of this is an act of anger, but you can tell that he means it. He has not weighed any decisions whatsoever in that moment. He wants Anders dead, or otherwise he will let all hell break loose. I don't think any character is as black and white as we might want them to be, and in that moment he is definitely not in the right frame of mind.

I just love the irony of the whole moment. Early in the game, Elthina had been constantly warning him, "Death is never justice" and all that. Might have been the most concrete lesson she had. If Anders dies, though, that's him abandoning what she tried to teach him. A shame, really, that we could never tell him that's not what Elthina would want, or even the all-too-typical-revenge-will-not-bring-this-dead-person-back. It had nothing to do with religion at that point, it was about Anders and the wrong he placed on him. I suppose that works as proof that he's simply not fit for the Chantry; noble effort as it might have been, those feelings are just as earthly and base as wanting lands/sex/money/etc.

That being said, there was no love loss for me when I killed him, even though he was a staple for my party up until that point. It probably won't be the last time I'll do it. Hopefully it won't be driving Sebastian in too dark a place, because there were other reasons.

Heidenreich wrote...

*snips*
SEE
I never said he wasn't a good person, I just said he was a spoiled rich kid who runs on the "its okay, till its not" mentality. And Miss Helper agrees

I've seen that criticism and I won't argue it's there. I can definetely see how Sebastian's attempt at sympathy, given his background, can come off as annoying. He is a privileged boy, tossed from one ivory tower to the next. Just a matter of whether that bothers you or not.

Part of why it doesn't bother me is that it's acknowledged. Nothing irritates me more than when a character is haughty or ignorant or rude and is never taken down a peg for it. Sebastian is never given special treatment. A banter between him and Varric comes to mind. He was trying to tell the dwarf to forgive his brother and he simply wasn't having it, replying something like, "Oh, go sing to some beggars!" Even though I can't help but think, "Aww, poor baby. Varric, Sebby's just trying to be nice!", it really helps his character.

Plus, and I understand it's not enough for some people but...would it even make sense if he were down to earth? I recall someone on another site claiming Nathaniel (love him too) saying he pulled off the whole spoiled archer thing better, but...Nathaniel actually spent time in the real world. Doesn't seem fair to hold Seb to such things. We already had a prince who had suffered the common man's trouble. His name was Alistair, and Sebastian will never be like him.

...BlackLotus, I must point out how much I love that quote. Cadbury eggs, dear lord...best analogy ever.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 08 août 2011 - 05:22 .

[Chignon]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

You're definitely not wrong about Sebastian's less-than-firm committment to, well, anything. I always saw him as the least mature of the followers. He's absolutely been sheltered his whole life, first as a prince, and then as a monk -- you can't possibly have less exposure to reality than that combo.

But I do think he is a genuinely kind, warm, giving person who wants to do the right thing. It's funny how people call him a zealot just because he's personally religious, even though he's hardly as strong in his beliefs as almost anyone else in the group. He believes sincerely in the goodness of the Maker, and has found happiness through the Chantry that he wants to share. But he's pretty liberal in his interpretations of what is and isn't the work of the Maker -- even to the point where he'll accept that the Dalish Creators might be another term for the same god.

I think Elthina sees his potential as a good and just man, but also the immaturity and flightiness that holds him back. She hopes that Hawke will help him grow into the man that joining the Chantry kind of stunted him from becoming. Either he will truly commit to the Chantry, or he will truly commit to Starkhaven. Of course, the real event which forces him to cut the apron strings and stand on his own is at the very end of the game, so we haven't seen the consequences yet.

This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Jennifer.

[syllogi]

rak72 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

After the fact, he could call Anders anything he chose. Abomination can also mean a person who is an affront to humanity, which would be kind of logical, given Sebastian's emotional state at the time. Granted, he probably does mean it in the "cohabitating with a demon" kind of way, but he never cared a whit about it until Elthina was dead. And the article "these" is plural even if "maleficarum" is ambiguous. If he were referring to Anders, specificially, he would have said "this".

We're splitting hairs. Is it so bad for Sebastian to want to avenge a friend, mentor, and mother-figure?

Not at all, I agree with him, but there are more reasons than revenge. And a lot of people do get ticked off with him for it while a lot worse things were being done by others the entire story.  

Yes, and I think it's important to have Sebastian there, at the end, to represent the many, many people offscreen who are directly affected by the bombing, because the other companions, even those who want Anders dead, don't really react very realistically.

Every time I see the cutscene of the explosion, I notice that it's far more than just the Chantry building that is being damaged.  Many innocent people were most likely killed, and more people would be killed during the mage/templar battle afterwards.  People who had nothing to do with the conflict, people who were just trying to live their lives peacefully.

Beyond the fact that Elthina and the other Chantry members who died were Sebastian's surrogate family, he quite possibly was thinking of all the other lives lost because Anders wanted to prove a point.  Why shouldn't he be upset, and be emotional???

[berelinde]

TeenZombie wrote...
Every time I see the cutscene of the explosion, I notice that it's far more than just the Chantry building that is being damaged.  Many innocent people were most likely killed, and more people would be killed during the mage/templar battle afterwards.  People who had nothing to do with the conflict, people who were just trying to live their lives peacefully.

Beyond the fact that Elthina and the other Chantry members who died were Sebastian's surrogate family, he quite possibly was thinking of all the other lives lost because Anders wanted to prove a point.  Why shouldn't he be upset, and be emotional???

I'm going to drop out of this discussion after this because 1) I'm at work and 2) deeply felt opinions will never be shifted by logic, no matter how many walls of text one posts.

I just wanted to point out that if Sebastian were truly thinking of all the lives lost because Anders wanted to prove a point, he would probably not do so by promising to raze Kirkwall. Because *that* would cause even greater loss of innocent life because Sebastian wanted to prove a point. He is an intelligent young man. He would surely know that Anders would not remain in Kirkwall. How would obliterating the entire city make things right?

And yes, I do understand that bullet item 2 above applies to this post, too.

[syllogi]

berelinde wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Every time I see the cutscene of the explosion, I notice that it's far more than just the Chantry building that is being damaged.  Many innocent people were most likely killed, and more people would be killed during the mage/templar battle afterwards.  People who had nothing to do with the conflict, people who were just trying to live their lives peacefully.

Beyond the fact that Elthina and the other Chantry members who died were Sebastian's surrogate family, he quite possibly was thinking of all the other lives lost because Anders wanted to prove a point.  Why shouldn't he be upset, and be emotional???

I'm going to drop out of this discussion after this because 1) I'm at work and 2) deeply felt opinions will never be shifted by logic, no matter how many walls of text one posts.

I just wanted to point out that if Sebastian were truly thinking of all the lives lost because Anders wanted to prove a point, he would probably not do so by promising to raze Kirkwall. Because *that* would cause even greater loss of innocent life because Sebastian wanted to prove a point. He is an intelligent young man. He would surely know that Anders would not remain in Kirkwall. How would obliterating the entire city make things right?

And yes, I do understand that bullet item 2 above applies to this post, too.

I hate to bring real world examples into this, but I was in NYC on September 11, 2001, and people said lots of things on that day that weren't rational or nice, concerning those who were responsible.

I know you're not going to respond, but I don't think anyone who has condemned Sebastian for his words just moments after a horrible attack has explained why he should be held to a higher standard of conduct than Anders or Fenris, when they have said pretty horrible things under no duress at all.

[rak72]

It occurs to me, especialy after the "moonbeam"  comment a couple of pages back, that the Anders vs Seb thread   is a lot like the Anders vs. Seb in game dynamic.  We're in here quietly apperciating the good things we see in our guy, then the Anders people come in here and try to convince us that everything is not good, we MUST open our eyes to all the bad things.

Is Seb flawless, no, noone beleives that.  Am I going to become gloomy and focus on all of his negative qualities, no, I prefer to be positive.  to be honest, I realy don't find whatever flaws he has to be worth brooding over.

On that note, Oooh look, is that a bunny cloud?

[jamesp81]

rak72 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

After the fact, he could call Anders anything he chose. Abomination can also mean a person who is an affront to humanity, which would be kind of logical, given Sebastian's emotional state at the time. Granted, he probably does mean it in the "cohabitating with a demon" kind of way, but he never cared a whit about it until Elthina was dead. And the article "these" is plural even if "maleficarum" is ambiguous. If he were referring to Anders, specificially, he would have said "this".

We're splitting hairs. Is it so bad for Sebastian to want to avenge a friend, mentor, and mother-figure?

Not at all, I agree with him, but there are more reasons than revenge. And a lot of people do get ticked off with him for it while a lot worse things were being done by others the entire story.  

I don't blame Sebastian for how he feels.  Hell, my characters share his faith.

My characters also believe in mage freedom, and they believe having Anders alive will further that goal.  If that's what it takes...then that's what it takes.

By the way, your Hawke is a dead-ringer for Morrigan.  Seriously, it could be her twin sister.

[rak72]

^^ her evil twin muahahaha ... or would it be her good twin???

[Chignon]

TeenZombie wrote...

I know you're not going to respond, but I don't think anyone who has condemned Sebastian for his words just moments after a horrible attack has explained why he should be held to a higher standard of conduct than Anders or Fenris, when they have said pretty horrible things under no duress at all.

That's a very good point.

[Heidenreich]

rak72 wrote...

It occurs to me, especialy after the "moonbeam"  comment a couple of pages back, that the Anders vs Seb thread   is a lot like the Anders vs. Seb in game dynamic.  We're in here quietly apperciating the good things we see in our guy, then the Anders people come in here and try to convince us that everything is not good, we MUST open our eyes to all the bad things.

Is Seb flawless, no, noone beleives that.  Am I going to become gloomy and focus on all of his negative qualities, no, I prefer to be positive.  to be honest, I realy don't find whatever flaws he has to be worth brooding over.

I said over-the-mooners, not moonbeam.

I'm a Fenris fan, and never did I mean for this to be Anders vrs Seb. I meant for someone to prove me wrong, which I am fully open too.

Also, quietly appreciating is boring.

[Chignon]

Heidenreich wrote...

Also, quietly appreciating is boring.

Different people, different strokes and all that. Just sayin'.

-



SebFenrisAdelais - readin' by ~rabbitzoro

[LessThanKate]

Heidenreich wrote...

Also, quietly appreciating is boring.

Not when the view is so lovely.

[john-in-france]

Just something I read elsewhere that the ladies of the SSG will have a wry smile at...totally applicable to Sebastian.
I have taken the liberty of replacing names to fit, instead of Schlock and Reverend, we have Sebastian and Varric alternate party banter...

Varric: Too bad about that celibacy thing.
Sebastian: My order doesn't do celibacy. We take an oath of chastity.
Varric: What's the difference?
Sebastian: When you are alone in a room with a beautiful woman you barely know... (sigh) There isn't a difference.
Varric: You religious people have too many words for "responsible behavior."

I support a chaste romance and a chaste marriage, I really hope this is what Bioware really meant. I can totally see the love side of this and the sex only in marriage ideal. Hopefully something that they will be addressing. Unlike the offscreen wedding....nope, not forgiven them that yet.
Judy

[john-in-france]

Men I can trust at my side (Fenris sadly not in screenshot)

[randomcheeses]

I will never not snicker at that belt buckle of his.

[john-in-france]

jamesp81 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

After the fact, he could call Anders anything he chose. Abomination can also mean a person who is an affront to humanity, which would be kind of logical, given Sebastian's emotional state at the time. Granted, he probably does mean it in the "cohabitating with a demon" kind of way, but he never cared a whit about it until Elthina was dead. And the article "these" is plural even if "maleficarum" is ambiguous. If he were referring to Anders, specificially, he would have said "this".

We're splitting hairs. Is it so bad for Sebastian to want to avenge a friend, mentor, and mother-figure?

Not at all, I agree with him, but there are more reasons than revenge. And a lot of people do get ticked off with him for it while a lot worse things were being done by others the entire story.  

I don't blame Sebastian for how he feels.  Hell, my characters share his faith.

My characters also believe in mage freedom, and they believe having Anders alive will further that goal.  If that's what it takes...then that's what it takes.

By the way, your Hawke is a dead-ringer for Morrigan.  Seriously, it could be her twin sister.

So how did you get the Seeker armour for Sebastian?
I mod often and would love this...ok my Hawke is a Seeker and I used the Inquisition mod.

Judy

[john-in-france]

rak72 wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

You're definitely not wrong about Sebastian's less-than-firm committment to, well, anything. I always saw him as the least mature of the followers. He's absolutely been sheltered his whole life, first as a prince, and then as a monk -- you can't possibly have less exposure to reality than that combo.

But I do think he is a genuinely kind, warm, giving person who wants to do the right thing. It's funny how people call him a zealot just because he's personally religious, even though he's hardly as strong in his beliefs as almost anyone else in the group. He believes sincerely in the goodness of the Maker, and has found happiness through the Chantry that he wants to share. But he's pretty liberal in his interpretations of what is and isn't the work of the Maker -- even to the point where he'll accept that the Dalish Creators might be another term for the same god.

I think Elthina sees his potential as a good and just man, but also the immaturity and flightiness that holds him back. She hopes that Hawke will help him grow into the man that joining the Chantry kind of stunted him from becoming. Either he will truly commit to the Chantry, or he will truly commit to Starkhaven. Of course, the real event which forces him to cut the apron strings and stand on his own is at the very end of the game, so we haven't seen the consequences yet.

Hopefully those consequences will be a not so chaste marriage

Thank youfor stopping by, Jennifer.  It's always nice to get the wrighters perspective on their character.

Thank you!

Same here, please enlighten us as to whether the Chaste marriage is celibate or just chaste. Yes there is a difference. We still want a wedding scene for either Rivalled or Friendmanced Sebastian, maybe a kiss even...

Judy

[john-in-france]

randomcheeses wrote...

I will never not snicker at that belt buckle of his.

I personally think it may be a chastity belt...just joking. I bet it digs in something rotten if he tried to kiss someone!

[Fidget6]

He's definitely the prettiest of the companions in DA2, I was disappointed you couldn't boink him. 

Modifié par Fidget6, 10 août 2011 - 09:28 .

[randomcheeses]

Fidget6 wrote...

He's definitely the prettiest of the companions in DA2, I was disappointed you couldn't boink him. 

Not to mention one of the sanest, politest and mentally well-balanced.

[john-in-france]

rak72 wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Sheltered, not spoiled very different. My mother kept me very sheltered when I was growing up, and believe me, I was not spoiled.

He's a prince, if he wasn't spoiled then his parents were doing it wrong.


I mean, heck, he tells us pretty much word for word that his father pulled him by the scruff of his neck out of the local **** house and said "not my son!" and tossed him to the chantry to put some maturity on them bones. It's pretty much led on by Seb that he took the "rich and handsome prince" deal a step or two farther then his family was happy with.

I have to say, and maybe if Jennifer is still around she can clarify, a lot of us are confused by this.  He was sent to the chantry at about 13yrs by our estimates.  Was he boozing and sleeping around already, or are we not seeing this timeline correctly.

Historically, if we talk medieval times, children were often married by 11-13 years old. We see adulthood as starting later, but for them it would be pretty much at puberty. My guess is that Sebastian started drinking early, and physically matured early as some boys do and got interested in women.
We also know that when he arrives in Kirkwall, Elthina lets him loose for a while to get it out of his system. I suspect this went on for at least a few months, maybe years, before Sebastian got tired of carnal pleasures and the emptiness it caused inside him. Then he went back to the Chantry through the front door.

That is my best guess based on Codex and short story anyway.

Judy