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[silentstephi]

You know, watching a vid of the Sebastian endgame lines, if you side with the mages he says something like "I've never known a woman like you. I wish..." Then something about distractions.

I wonder if you don't HAVE to become Vicountess to be able to theoretically continue with his sorta romance.


Oh hey, top of the page picture time!

He looks so funny with Fenris facial expressions.

Modifié par silentstephi, 13 août 2011 - 11:54 .

[john-in-france]

Oh no, you did it again....
A very nice did it again

My bad, I don't think that I explained the Romance flag properly. For the flag to be set for future game/expansion/DLC Anders must die, then Sebastian will side with you in both endings and the flag is set as LI. Anders lives and Bioware have dictated that it is an equivalent of the broken heart, end romance.

I don't say that I agree with them, but we are screwed by Plot Bunnies.

[john-in-france]

Chignon:
What Sebastian really does, we'll have to wait and see. No opinions are wrong, unless contradicted by codex/wiki and we all know that Bioware seem happy to ignore their own information when it suits them. Chaste/celibate Templar in DAO vs Templar with no vows and family in DA2 being one of the annoying examples.

It is pretty obvious that LI Sebastian is going back to Starkhaven. Act 3 dialogue heavily suggests this even for Chantry (possibly Brother) Sebastian.

What Sebastian is like if you don't kill Anders, is well, pretty much up to your interpretation of his character. Some people imagine him sitting there eating waffles, and some of us believe that he might actually do it.

It was really an exploration of character dynamics and how things could be pushed either way knowing the penchant for Bioware to create Dark Side characters from the originally sane ones (Anders, Orsino, perhaps even Meredith).

I think that many people decided to underestimate Sebastian when he threatens to raise an army against Kirkwall and the mages. I really do think that he'd do it, and become very singleminded/obsessed about it.

It is just an opinion...not game canon, codex or wiki, just a writer thinking aloud.
If it doesn't fit with your head canon, ignore it.

[Nhadalie]

I think in rivalry, Sebby actually would raise an army against Kirkwall.

In friendship though, I can see Sebastian running off, and thinking "What did I just do? Hawke didn't deserve my anger. He/she's in a tough position." and keep thinking about it from there.


I have such a funny mental image of a comic now.. Sebby walking into a tavern advertising that they have "Starkhaven's best waffles". I wonder if perhaps waffles are a delicacy in Starkhaven?


Or perhaps "Starkhaven Waffle House", and Sebby thinks about the above while there. So He might be violently stabbing the poor waffles like he wants to kill them.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 14 août 2011 - 02:43 .

[Ellyria]

john-in-france wrote...

No opinions are wrong, unless contradicted by codex/wiki and we all know that Bioware seem happy to ignore their own information when it suits them

Hasn't DG said a few times that the codex entries are not facts set in stone, because they're written by characters in the game, therefore could be biased opinions, heresay, and theories?

Anyway, I don't know why Sebastian was like "RAWR ME SMASH KIRKWALL!" if you let Anders live; I don't remember any of the mages going "Heck yes, we're going to take over Kirkwall and set it up as our secret mage hideout!", they just went back to the Gallows to defend themselves against Meredith and the Templars. I would assume that after Meredith is defeated, no mage in their right mind would stay in Kirkwall. If they were going to have a secret Mage Rebellion HQ, setting up in the city with the bulk of the Templar army is not a good idea.

[rak72]

Lol, He goes back to Starkhaven and opens a waffle house

[rak72]

Chylise wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

No opinions are wrong, unless contradicted by codex/wiki and we all know that Bioware seem happy to ignore their own information when it suits them

Hasn't DG said a few times that the codex entries are not facts set in stone, because they're written by characters in the game, therefore could be biased opinions, heresay, and theories?

Anyway, I don't know why Sebastian was like "RAWR ME SMASH KIRKWALL!" if you let Anders live; I don't remember any of the mages going "Heck yes, we're going to take over Kirkwall and set it up as our secret mage hideout!", they just went back to the Gallows to defend themselves against Meredith and the Templars. I would assume that after Meredith is defeated, no mage in their right mind would stay in Kirkwall. If they were going to have a secret Mage Rebellion HQ, setting up in the city with the bulk of the Templar army is not a good idea.

I think it was because Hawk was the last person left that Seb had any faith in.  When Hawk  "betrays" him,he lost hope that there is anything good left in Kirkwall,  it is now Malificares Gone Wild and a threat to all that is holy in the freemarches

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I suspect I may have brought this up already, but... could Sebastian be trusted to throw Starkhaven's support behind the mages if Anders was killed? He's willing to side with the mages by rationalizing it that Andraste wouldn't want the Circle to become a prison/torture chamber, but that seems more like an opposition to Kirkwall. He seems ideologically unreliable.

I've wondered about that, too. I can easily picture Fenris having a future at the city-state of Starkhaven, leading humans or elves in Sebastian's armed forces, but I have a very difficult time wondering how Sebastian would react to his friend Hawke ultimately siding with the mages and their desire for autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

What does it mean for Sebastian if he aids Hawke in helping the mages deal with Meredith? His dialogue seems to pit him firmly on the Chantry side against the tyranny of the templars, but he seems to recognize that these mages aren't Anders if the ex-Grey Warden is killed. Would this act change how he would respond to the mage revolution, if he becomes the new Prince of Starkhaven?

I picture my apostate Hawke siding with the mages post-Kirkwall's Right of Annulment, even becoming a leader of the mages. What would Sebastian say if Hawke decided to become a leader to the mages, which is a comment Anders repeatedly says about Hawke (at least if he's an apostate)?

Does anyone know why Sebastian never comments on Hawke being an apostate (especially given his dialogue with Fenris that leaves out an apostate Hawke entirely)? I'm surprised Sebastian accepted Hawke's help, given that he's an illegal mage in Act II, but it doesn't seem to matter to him the way that Anders and Merrill being apostates does. Being a mage doesn't even when factor when Sebastian argues with Aveline that Hawke should be the new Viscount, and he never seems to connect Hawke being an illegal mage with Hawke's support for the mages in that conversation.

[Xilizhra]

Does anyone know why Sebastian never comments on Hawke being an apostate (especially given his dialogue with Fenris that leaves out an apostate Hawke entirely)? I'm surprised Sebastian accepted Hawke's help, given that he's an illegal mage in Act II, but it doesn't seem to matter to him the way that Anders and Merrill being apostates does. Being a mage doesn't even when factor when Sebastian argues with Aveline that Hawke should be the new Viscount, and he never seems to connect Hawke being an illegal mage with Hawke's support for the mages in that conversation.

I think those are just dialogue holes. Regrettably, one more reason why the story works better with Hawke as a nonmage.

[john-in-france]

Chylise wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

No opinions are wrong, unless contradicted by codex/wiki and we all know that Bioware seem happy to ignore their own information when it suits them

Hasn't DG said a few times that the codex entries are not facts set in stone, because they're written by characters in the game, therefore could be biased opinions, heresay, and theories?

Anyway, I don't know why Sebastian was like "RAWR ME SMASH KIRKWALL!" if you let Anders live; I don't remember any of the mages going "Heck yes, we're going to take over Kirkwall and set it up as our secret mage hideout!", they just went back to the Gallows to defend themselves against Meredith and the Templars. I would assume that after Meredith is defeated, no mage in their right mind would stay in Kirkwall. If they were going to have a secret Mage Rebellion HQ, setting up in the city with the bulk of the Templar army is not a good idea.

I can see a huge advantage in trashing Kirkwall, after I'd got the population out, the blood mage sigil that is underneath it. It seems to attract negative vibrations so to speak...but that is just me.

Bioware histrionics is the answer to your question really.

Modifié par john-in-france, 14 août 2011 - 06:32 .

[john-in-france]

rak72 wrote...

Lol, He goes back to Starkhaven and opens a waffle house

He'll open 'House Vael Waffles of luxury' tea room...

[john-in-france]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I suspect I may have brought this up already, but... could Sebastian be trusted to throw Starkhaven's support behind the mages if Anders was killed? He's willing to side with the mages by rationalizing it that Andraste wouldn't want the Circle to become a prison/torture chamber, but that seems more like an opposition to Kirkwall. He seems ideologically unreliable.

I've wondered about that, too. I can easily picture Fenris having a future at the city-state of Starkhaven, leading humans or elves in Sebastian's armed forces, but I have a very difficult time wondering how Sebastian would react to his friend Hawke ultimately siding with the mages and their desire for autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

What does it mean for Sebastian if he aids Hawke in helping the mages deal with Meredith? His dialogue seems to pit him firmly on the Chantry side against the tyranny of the templars, but he seems to recognize that these mages aren't Anders if the ex-Grey Warden is killed. Would this act change how he would respond to the mage revolution, if he becomes the new Prince of Starkhaven?

I picture my apostate Hawke siding with the mages post-Kirkwall's Right of Annulment, even becoming a leader of the mages. What would Sebastian say if Hawke decided to become a leader to the mages, which is a comment Anders repeatedly says about Hawke (at least if he's an apostate)?

Does anyone know why Sebastian never comments on Hawke being an apostate (especially given his dialogue with Fenris that leaves out an apostate Hawke entirely)? I'm surprised Sebastian accepted Hawke's help, given that he's an illegal mage in Act II, but it doesn't seem to matter to him the way that Anders and Merrill being apostates does. Being a mage doesn't even when factor when Sebastian argues with Aveline that Hawke should be the new Viscount, and he never seems to connect Hawke being an illegal mage with Hawke's support for the mages in that conversation.

Sebastian is not a Chantry zealot, but a moderate as described by Heplar.

If you let Anders live he may (I say may) become more hard line, the indications are there. He says to me that Elthina should have sided with Meredith which really gives away his normal stance. I'd say he is the moderate of the Chantry team, whereas Cullen is the moderate of the Templar team.

I know that Sebastian can be persuaded by LI/friend Hawke to side with the Mages in the endgame (and if Anders is dead), but I can not say that this would extend to the Mage Revolution unless Hawke was a mage. Indications in romance dialogue suggest Sebastian feels protective towards mage Hawke.

I honestly do not understand why so many Anders fans do not kill him  in the endgame, it is what he wants, to become a martyr. Without Anders as Martyr, only the Chantry side has a true martyr (Elthina), for game balance there needs to be two...

Modifié par john-in-france, 14 août 2011 - 06:31 .

[Xilizhra]

I honestly do not understand why so many Anders fans do not kill him in the endgame, it is what he wants, to become a martyr. Without Anders as Martyr, only the Chantry side has a true martyr (Elthina), for game balance there needs to be two...

He just thinks Hawke will have to kill him. He's quite happy to live.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 14 août 2011 - 06:34 .

[rak72]

I killed Anders & supported the mages, Sebastian was right there with me without an argument. He isn't anti mage, he wants to turn Merril & Anders in because they are a blood mage & an abomination. Hawk is going around doing good & he dosn't think s/he is a danger to society.

Edited to say what I wanted it to say

Modifié par rak72, 14 août 2011 - 06:46 .

[Xilizhra]

rak72 wrote...

I killed Anders & supported the mages, Sebastian was right there with me without an argument. He isn't anti mage, he wants to turn Merril & Anders in because they are a blood mage & an appostate. Hawk is going around doing good & he dosn't think s/he is a danger to society.

And Hawke isn't an apostate?

Also, I like you when you're talking to Merrill, but behind her back, you're planning on throwing her into the Gallows? Screw off.

[john-in-france]

I think that Sebstian may have read the forbidden texts that suggest Andraste was a mage, and judges female Hawke as being like her...just a thought.

As Rak 72 says he isn't anti mage, just anti-maleficar and he sees Merrill and JAnders as maleficar, which under Chantry defnition...they are.

[john-in-france]

Xilizhra wrote...

I honestly do not understand why so many Anders fans do not kill him in the endgame, it is what he wants, to become a martyr. Without Anders as Martyr, only the Chantry side has a true martyr (Elthina), for game balance there needs to be two...

He just thinks Hawke will have to kill him. He's quite happy to live.

Martyrs influence causes so much more. A leader rises and falls, but the inspiration, the inspiration lives forever.

[Xilizhra]

john-in-france wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I honestly do not understand why so many Anders fans do not kill him in the endgame, it is what he wants, to become a martyr. Without Anders as Martyr, only the Chantry side has a true martyr (Elthina), for game balance there needs to be two...

He just thinks Hawke will have to kill him. He's quite happy to live.

Martyrs influence causes so much more. A leader rises and falls, but the inspiration, the inspiration lives forever.

No one really knows he's a martyr, though.

[john-in-france]

Xilizhra wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I honestly do not understand why so many Anders fans do not kill him in the endgame, it is what he wants, to become a martyr. Without Anders as Martyr, only the Chantry side has a true martyr (Elthina), for game balance there needs to be two...

He just thinks Hawke will have to kill him. He's quite happy to live.

Martyrs influence causes so much more. A leader rises and falls, but the inspiration, the inspiration lives forever.

No one really knows he's a martyr, though.

Orsino escaped back to the Gallows, there were other witnesses, and mages do have that nifty invisibility spell that drives me nuts...so who can really say?

One person needs to tell a story that is all. Varric tells Hawkes. Someone else tells Anders. It spreads like wildfire...

[rak72]

Xilizhra wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I killed Anders & supported the mages, Sebastian was right there with me without an argument. He isn't anti mage, he wants to turn Merril & Anders in because they are a blood mage & an appostate. Hawk is going around doing good & he dosn't think s/he is a danger to society.

And Hawke isn't an apostate?

Also, I like you when you're talking to Merrill, but behind her back, you're planning on throwing her into the Gallows? Screw off.

Sorry, I meant to say Abomination

[LobselVith8]

john-in-france wrote...

Sebastian is not a Chantry zealot, but a moderate as described by Heplar.

Did Heplar provide that as the reason for why Sebastian works with an apostate Hawke, or did she mean his personality in general? I would have thought that Sebastian would have reservations about working with an apostate, the same way that Fenris voices his opinion about the matter when he discovers Hawke is an illegal mage.

john-in-france wrote...

If you let Anders live he may (I say may) become more hard line, the indications are there. He says to me that Elthina should have sided with Meredith which really gives away his normal stance. I'd say he is the moderate of the Chantry team, whereas Cullen is the moderate of the Templar team.

I know that Sebastian can be persuaded by LI/friend Hawke to side with the Mages in the endgame (and if Anders is dead), but I can not say that this would extend to the Mage Revolution unless Hawke was a mage. Indications in romance dialogue suggest Sebastian feels protective towards mage Hawke.

I know Sebastian either agrees with Hawke that a house of the Maker shouldn't become a torture chamber, or that the mages can't be blamed for the actions of Anders if Hawke provides his condolences for what happened to his surrogate mother. Do you think siding with the mages will have any ramifications on his efforts to gain control over Starkhaven?

john-in-france wrote...

I honestly do not understand why so many Anders fans do not kill him  in the endgame, it is what he wants, to become a martyr. Without Anders as Martyr, only the Chantry side has a true martyr (Elthina), for game balance there needs to be two...

Given that Anders isn't mentioned by Cassandra (since she only references Hawke being important to the mages who have rebelled from the Chantry), I don't think Anders becomes a martyr; it seems as though the mages have focused on Hawke (if he aided the mages).

[john-in-france]

Xilizhra wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I killed Anders & supported the mages, Sebastian was right there with me without an argument. He isn't anti mage, he wants to turn Merril & Anders in because they are a blood mage & an appostate. Hawk is going around doing good & he dosn't think s/he is a danger to society.

And Hawke isn't an apostate?

Also, I like you when you're talking to Merrill, but behind her back, you're planning on throwing her into the Gallows? Screw off.

Yes Sebastian does talk about drawing straws with Fenris over who is going to tell the Templar. He doesn't though, this may be because he brought it up with my Hawke and got told that he could have JAnders but not Merrill.
I still think before handing Merrill over she needed options, JAnders had had his opportunity with the Grey Wardens and walked away. I always felt Merrill should have the chance to redeem herself (just as it says in the chant), she was outside the circle anyway.
Also it felt like kicking a puppy...a dangerous puppy, but still.

[john-in-france]

LobselVith8 wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Sebastian is not a Chantry zealot, but a moderate as described by Heplar.

Did Heplar provide that as the reason for why Sebastian works with an apostate Hawke, or did she mean his personality in general? I would have thought that Sebastian would have reservations about working with an apostate, the same way that Fenris voices his opinion about the matter when he discovers Hawke is an illegal mage.

john-in-france wrote...

If you let Anders live he may (I say may) become more hard line, the indications are there. He says to me that Elthina should have sided with Meredith which really gives away his normal stance. I'd say he is the moderate of the Chantry team, whereas Cullen is the moderate of the Templar team.

I know that Sebastian can be persuaded by LI/friend Hawke to side with the Mages in the endgame (and if Anders is dead), but I can not say that this would extend to the Mage Revolution unless Hawke was a mage. Indications in romance dialogue suggest Sebastian feels protective towards mage Hawke.

I know Sebastian either agrees with Hawke that a house of the Maker shouldn't become a torture chamber, or that the mages can't be blamed for the actions of Anders if Hawke provides his condolences for what happened to his surrogate mother. Do you think siding with the mages will have any ramifications on his efforts to gain control over Starkhaven?

john-in-france wrote...

I honestly do not understand why so many Anders fans do not kill him  in the endgame, it is what he wants, to become a martyr. Without Anders as Martyr, only the Chantry side has a true martyr (Elthina), for game balance there needs to be two...

Given that Anders isn't mentioned by Cassandra (since she only references Hawke being important to the mages who have rebelled from the Chantry), I don't think Anders becomes a martyr; it seems as though the mages have focused on Hawke (if he aided the mages).

In order because I am slightly inebriated, just back from a wedding celebration, so don't expect total lucidity or good spelling tonight....

No. She just said that as Chantry beliefs go, Sebastian was open to other ways of seeing the Maker. She cites him as being accepting of the Dalish gods etc as being another face of the Maker, rather than heathen. This is taken normally in religion as a moderate stance.

This is better to my mind, than Lelianas - the Maker spoke directly to me stance...which always made me twitch..badly.

Next

No, I don't think it will effect him taking Starkhaven, it might effect him keeping it. If mages side with Starkhaven and Hawke is a mage, maybe they can hold the line. There are many possibilities here...Bioware plot bunny issues.

Next

Actually at the moment in time Cassandra is after Hawke who can influence Mages or Templar depending on ending. Who the story centres on depends on dear dwarf friend Varric to a certain amount. Even if JAnders dies, a Hawke fighting the mage ending will become their hero/ine. JAnders and Orsino only become Martyrs if Hawke sides Templar which makes sense.

[LessThanKate]

Xilizhra wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I killed Anders & supported the mages, Sebastian was right there with me without an argument. He isn't anti mage, he wants to turn Merril & Anders in because they are a blood mage & an appostate. Hawk is going around doing good & he dosn't think s/he is a danger to society.

And Hawke isn't an apostate?

Also, I like you when you're talking to Merrill, but behind her back, you're planning on throwing her into the Gallows? Screw off.

That's conflict for you. Aveline had arrested some apostates--Anders knows about it, too--yet there's no real confrontation about her with the mages in your party, including a mage Hawke. Part of it must be oversight, or just the fact that you need a mage in the party, though another aspect could be just Hawke...being Hawke. Even as a mage, he/she is the one accomplishing things in Kirkwall. By the time Sebastian really "meets" him/her, Hawke has already been established, to the point where templars apparently can't/won't touch him/her.

It's funny, really. My first Hawke insisted mages needed training, but I never had the option of turning in the apostates in the party. At the very least, in Awakening, you could let the Templars take back Anders...though, to my knowledge, that's been retconed in the sequel.

As far as Sebastian goes, he just seems to be torn. He's known the Chantry far longer than he's known Hawke, though he owes him/her for helping him get rid of the Flint Company Mercernaries.

I also recall--and this has been brought up before--him saying "Frankly, both sides are despicable" when rivaled, so at least he realizes neither faction is clearly right or wrong.  At that point it's a matter doing what needs to be done so he can take back Starkhaven and set things straight.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 14 août 2011 - 07:20 .

[john-in-france]

LessThanKate wrote...

I also recall--and this has been brought up before--him saying "Frankly, both sides are despicable" when rivaled, so at least he realizes neither faction is clearly right or wrong.  At that point it's a matter doing what needs to be done so he can take back Starkhaven and set things straight.

As the worlds worst rivaller of Sebastian, that is a new quote for me. When does he say it? It does change what I think he might do after endgame...interesting!

This is a real quote, yes, something that you personally have heard in game?

My plot line is changing rapidly...

Judy