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Sebastian Support Group! (spoilers...possibly)


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#2101
Chignon

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esper wrote...

Isa's rivalry path is Isa thinking that Hawke is a stick in the mud. There is a differnce, she has to call you something.


Er, yes? That was my point. You can rival Isabela, just like any of the other companions, for a number of reasons. Just because Isabela's rivaled doesn't mean that Hawke has/is no fun, just because Anders is rivaled doesn't mean Hawke is completely unsympathetic to the plight of the mages, and so on.

Edited for ToP

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Modifié par Chignon, 08 septembre 2011 - 07:16 .


#2102
Monica21

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esper wrote...
But after Allure Sebastian wants to stay in the chantry. I finally got the half way question belief for rivalry today and Sebastian clearly says he wants to come back to the chantry. Allure cast doubt on his plight or case of whatever you call it, and as so many other human being Sebastian defaults to what he knows when he is in doubt.

I actually think Sebastian is using the Chantry as a shield. (Or at least that's how I play it in my head.) He likes himself in the Chantry and leading Starkhaven isn't something he was ever trained for or ever thought he would be in a position to have. Having done both the rivalry and friendship paths I think he would be a better ruler than whatever that guy's name is that I can't think of, and the rivalry path is more about convincing him than just "Okay, do whatever you want."

#2103
Giggles_Manically

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I honestly think that RIVALSebastian is just like that little kid in a swimming class who is on the diving board over the deep end of the pool who just wont jump.

The Chantry is the diving board and its nice and safe, and secure.
But he knows that he has to jump into that pool some time, but it scares him since he is afraid of drowning since he has never ever been in the deep end.

Deep end meaning serious politics here.
I think that right at the end of the rival path, on either side of the mage/templar thing, rival Sebastian has his toes over the edge and is getting ready to jump.

Friend Sebastian is just convinced to cling on to the diving board and eat waffles or something.
Which is why I dont like the friend path AS MUCH myself.

If anyone could draw a picture of KIDSebastian sitting on the diving board eating waffles that would be funny come to think of it.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 08 septembre 2011 - 08:31 .


#2104
R2s Muse

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Been mostly lurking recently, but @Giggles -- The image you just conjured made me laugh out loud! "The kid...who just won't jump." Totally agree! Sometimes I feel bad that rivaling him pulls him out of his comfort zone, but... sometimes you just have to jump.

#2105
Giggles_Manically

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Was never a problem for me.

I did a running flip off the diving board my first time.
Ended up doing a giagantic belly flop too.

Looked cool at least according to witnessess, especially cause I yelled "HEY WATCH THIS!".

#2106
Jackalope

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

I honestly think that RIVALSebastian is just like that little kid in a swimming class who is on the diving board over the deep end of the pool who just wont jump.


Hawke: "Jump Sebastian!"
Sebastian: *jumps off the diving board and sinks to the bottom*
Varric: "Probably should have told him to take the armor off."
Hawke: "Great...load previous save..."

#2107
Jackalope

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I also think the 'friend/rival' concept is good, but I think using those particular words forces people to think 'friend/enemy' or something similar.

Look at Mass Effect. There's no approval meter, but you can bend Garrus either Paragon or Renegade, depending on how you deal with the doctor and Sidonis. You can bend Kaiden anti-alien. Could those choices be considered 'rivaling'?

In DAO you can harden Alistair or Liliana. It doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't make you enemies, but it does force them to go into a direction they weren't expecting.

#2108
esper

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I like the friendship/rivalry but some part of me think that it should be named alliance/rivalry instead or something like that.

#2109
Ellyria

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Jackalope wrote...

I also think the 'friend/rival' concept is good, but I think using those particular words forces people to think 'friend/enemy' or something similar.

Look at Mass Effect. There's no approval meter, but you can bend Garrus either Paragon or Renegade, depending on how you deal with the doctor and Sidonis. You can bend Kaiden anti-alien. Could those choices be considered 'rivaling'?

In DAO you can harden Alistair or Liliana. It doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't make you enemies, but it does force them to go into a direction they weren't expecting.


I don't think rival = enemy, but the problem is that once you max the friend or rival meter out, they think you'll ALWAYS side with them or ALWAYS oppose them, even if you don't. They basically start ignoring anything you do after they're maxed out, so if you fully friended Sebastian, then started to tell him "You know what? Starkhaven needs a good leader, and I think you're it bud", he's basically like "No Hawke, you told me to stay in the Chantry so I'm gonna stick with that." Like you'll never be able to change his mind. At least in DAO, if you got approval to 100%, you could still lose points because you started doing things that your companion disapproved of.

I think the Paragon/Renegading Garrus or hardening Leliana/Alistair is better executed because:
-Even if you're a renegade, you can give Garrus paragon responses and make him more paragon and visa versa
-you can choose to harden Leliana/Alistair, or you can choose not to, it has nothing to do with how high/low their approval is

Modifié par Chylise, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:00 .


#2110
R2s Muse

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I actually liked the friend/rival system better overall than the DA:O approve/disapprove system, since when they disapproved it really was because they didn't like what you were doing to the point where I guess they would leave you (I never actually went that far, but that's what I read!). So, I like the "agree to disagree" notion of rival, since it doubles your fun with each companion. The word "rival" may not be perfect, since it does sound more like you're at odds. But you can fully respect a rival.

That said, I agree with Chylise that it's no fun once they're maxed out. I'm so used to maxing every now that I do get bored with them not caring about my choices anymore. Of course, it was helpful to get certain LIs maxed out early on so I wasn't constantly struggling to keep them around and on track for questioning beliefs, but for the others, not so much fun.

#2111
Ellyria

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R2s Muse wrote...

I actually liked the friend/rival system better overall than the DA:O approve/disapprove system, since when they disapproved it really was because they didn't like what you were doing to the point where I guess they would leave you (I never actually went that far, but that's what I read!).


You can make your DA2 companions (minus Varric) leave as well. :P

And if your approval ever got bad with DAO companions you could just spam them with gifts. (Although I think Morrigan and Alistair won't leave unless it's because of storyline purposes).

#2112
R2s Muse

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Chylise wrote...
You can make your DA2 companions (minus Varric) leave as well. :P

Ah, that's true. But, I thought that was from certain specific choices (like kill/not kill Anders, or not save Isabela), not just being super rivaled...?

edit: OK, thought about this some more, and I guess Isabela will totally split if you're not 50% by end of Act2. But, aren't most/all? of the others more about specific choices? Trying to remember now...

Modifié par R2s Muse, 09 septembre 2011 - 12:23 .


#2113
Ellyria

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R2s Muse wrote...

Chylise wrote...
You can make your DA2 companions (minus Varric) leave as well. :P

Ah, that's true. But, I thought that was from certain specific choices (like kill/not kill Anders, or not save Isabela), not just being super rivaled...?

edit: OK, thought about this some more, and I guess Isabela will totally split if you're not 50% by end of Act2. But, aren't most/all? of the others more about specific choices? Trying to remember now...


Fenris will leave if you don't go fight the slavers in Act II, you can give him to Danarius in Act III, or he'll turn on you if you side with the mages with insufficient friend/rival points.

Anders will leave if you tell him to after his Act II quest Dissent, you can kill him in Act III, or if he's friended/not fully rivaled he'll turn on you if you side with the templars.

Isabela will leave if you don't have enough friend/rival points at the end of Act II, or you can hand her over to the Arishok.

Merrill will turn on you if you side with the templars in Act III with insufficient friend/rival points (only if Anders doesn't).

Aveline will turn on you if you side with the mages in Act III with insufficient friend/rival points (only if Fenris doesn't).

Sebastian will leave if you don't kill Anders in Act III.

edit: forgot one.

Modifié par Chylise, 09 septembre 2011 - 04:19 .


#2114
R2s Muse

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@Chylise, cool, thanks! Hmm, never really thought about it depending so much on approval...

#2115
Jackalope

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So, I put on some of the DLC armor. One of the warrior pieces has a face on the belt. I couldn't wear it because I was laughing too hard at Hawke and Sebastian. Who's idea was that?

On another note, when is everyone doing Legacy? I'm in Act III and I'm thinking of doing it now while Anders is still standing.

#2116
Ellyria

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Jackalope wrote...

So, I put on some of the DLC armor. One of the warrior pieces has a face on the belt. I couldn't wear it because I was laughing too hard at Hawke and Sebastian. Who's idea was that?

On another note, when is everyone doing Legacy? I'm in Act III and I'm thinking of doing it now while Anders is still standing.


I did mine post-campaign for Friendmance and Rivalmance Sebastian PTs. I think it makes sense to do it in Act III though, because they reference Bethany/Carver in the Gallows (if they're not Grey Wardens), and Hawke still living in the Amell Estate, regardless of which ending you chose.

It's a bummer that if you "want the most out of Legacy", you should bring Carver/Bethany, Varric, and Anders. Here's hoping that the other DLCs will give focus to the other characters to even it out. (Starkhaven DLC!!!!!!!!! :wizard:)

#2117
Chignon

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I also played Legacy with my Post-Campaign save. My party was Carver, Isabela and Sebastian and it made for some hilarious banter.

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#2118
Giggles_Manically

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I have not actually brought Sebastian through all of Legacy yet.

I did get his banter.
When he flirted with Bethany I laughed at the same time Hawke did.

#2119
Chignon

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You should, Giggles! Sebastian also has interesting conversations about Tevinter and the magisters with Fenris if you take him along, too.

#2120
LessThanKate

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sagequeen wrote...

thanks chignon! i like that pic, too. she's like 'you want my prince? you gotta come through ME!' yeah, liked warrior a lot more that i thought i would. 'twas fun. i also liked that i managed to make her not terribly pretty, yet still look compelling. she sneered really well in animations.


How wonderful! That's a lot like what I had in mind for my Sebastian-loving Hawke. I'm relieved you're liking the Warrior class.

Image IPB

And yeah, pretty in an unconventional way was what I went for, too...tried to, anyway.


Jackalope wrote...

Friend: Bethany, Varric, Fenris (first time), Aveline
Rival: Anders (first time), Merrill, Isabela (first time), Sebastian


This Hawke just seems to be nice to her friends and really brutal to her enemies.  And lesser people that tickher off (Javaris was the easest +15 Rival points ever).

Rivaling
Sebastian seems so different from rivaling Anders or Merrill.  Those two needs to be reminded of how crazy they are acting.  Sebastian's is more like hardening Alistair or Liliana or telling Garrus it doesn't matter what it takes to stop the bad guys.


Oh hey, those are exactly the friends and rivals I had. It may be bias, but...I agree, being rivals with Sebastian is not as fun (for me) as being rivals with Anders, Merrill, Isabela...and Fenris, I assume. I remember giving him the Starkhaven Bow and then, as I tell him to think of his family when he uses it...he gives a very unenthused, "Yes, this will help against usurpers...thank you for thinking of me, Hawke,". He doesn't really seem to be fighting it at first, like he's letting you push him...I felt like such a bully.

Overall I like the system better than approve/disapprove, since you can be on opposing terms with a characters and not lose anything for it. In DAO,  characters only got power upgrades with approval...so why wouldn't I try to get that every time? Friendship/Rivalry helps establish Hawke's personality and a sense of consistency. It's not perfect...it would be nice if I could somehow be more caring and considerate to Sebastian while still urging him to retake what was his, but...I'd still take that over him leaving if I didn't always do what he liked.

sagequeen wrote...

Eh, I would say buy Awakening if you want the story (and to meet the old Anders & the awesomeness of Nate
Howe), but don't be surprised by massive import bugs for a "canon" Warden in DA2.  I am forced to use Gibbed's DA:O Save Generator if I want all the quests that I *should* get from having played all of
the DA:O DLC to show up.  It's not quite the same, but it saves headaches.

I've been wondering lately...if/when there is a Starkhaven DLC, and if/when the rivalmance is acknowledged,
do you all think there would be any acknowledgement of how impractical the "political arrangement" between the Prince of Starkhaven and a mage Viscountess of Kirkwall would be?  I know the writers have said in the
past that mages were not intended to be able to become the Viscount, and it just seems like a huge deal that ought to be addressed, in some way, if the romance is continued (or mentioned at all, SOB).


Ugh, console player here. I'm giving strong consideration to replaying Awakening just so I can see Nathaniel again. I did everything right that first time, too, but...it bothers me that in my Hawke's world, Nathaniel is dead, even though my Warden did everything to keep them all alive.

As for the possible Mage Viscountess/Princess...I can't help think it would just be glossed over again. No one would say anything until later, when Hawke apparently has so much power that she's untouchable. Or she's simply to beneficial to...rat out.

Really, though...does a Mage Chantry sister make any more sense?

Modifié par LessThanKate, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:01 .


#2121
Jackalope

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LessThanKate wrote...
Oh hey, those are exactly the friends and rivals I had. It may be bias, but...I agree, being rivals with Sebastian is not as fun (for me) as being rivals with Anders, Merrill, Isabela...and Fenris, I assume. I remember giving him the Starkhaven Bow and then, as I tell him to think of his family when he uses it...he gives a very unenthused, "Yes, this will help against usurpers...thank you for thinking of me, Hawke,". He doesn't really seem to be fighting it at first, like he's letting you push him...I felt like such a bully.


So, considering you rivaled/friended the same way...how do you feel about your Hawke?  Is she a bully and a thug, or just harsh but fair.  Just wondering.

I'm thinking he really does want to be a prince over a priest.  He just needs to hear from someone like Hawke that it's a good idea.

Man, I am REALLY enjoying rivaling Izzy and Anders on this playthrough.  I love how Isabela pretty much says that Hawke thinks she's a better person thans she really is...but both Anders and Sebastian call her out on doing the right thing.  It's friggin' adorable.  And Anders now scares me...in a good way.

As far as unenthused...I think Sebastian's just overly proper when he talks.  Even when he's mentioning the alliance between Hawke's Kirkwall and his Starkhaven.  It's very mellow or reserved.  I was rewatching the 1990s version of 'Pride and Prejudice' and Firth's Darcy is sort of the same way.  Must be the fancy breeding.  (And at least Sebastian isn't so condescending during the proposal).

Overall I like the system better than approve/disapprove, since you can be on opposing terms with a characters and not lose anything for it. In DAO,  characters only got power upgrades with approval...so why wouldn't I try to get that every time? Friendship/Rivalry helps establish Hawke's personality and a sense of consistency. It's not perfect...it would be nice if I could somehow be more caring and considerate to Sebastian while still urging him to retake what was his, but...I'd still take that over him leaving if I didn't always do what he liked.


I screw up my first playthrough because I just didn't get the system.  I lost Fenris, Izzy, and Aveline before the final battle.  It's tough the first time around because you're sort of learning everyone's personalities while you're playing...and unless you think about who you have with you when you're just accepting a mission, it can go crazy.

I mean, Sebastian approves of you letting that escaped mage have a one-night stand at a bar.  Izzy, I could see her approving.  Anders and Varric, yes.  But Sebastian?  Well, I guess he doesn't judge.

I had everyone at 100% halfway through Act II, and it's great.  It's making Act III a breeze because I'm not preoccupied with making everyone on the boat happy.  In fact I surprised myself during the initial arguement between Merideth and Orsino by basically yelling at them both.  This Hawke is sort of nice foil to Elthina--instead of refusing to take a side, she seems intent on hitting both of them on the head until they see reason.  Consdering how they both go insane in the end, that might be the best view to have.  I feel like I'm still being caring to Sebastian...just a little pushy.

I did refuse to do the 'No one can tell a prince what to do...or who to do it with' line.  His response cracks me up, but it sounded like something FemShep would say to Jacob.

Really, though...does a Mage Chantry sister make any more sense?


That's a lot of self-hating.  Reminds me of the really devout mage in DAO.

#2122
Monica21

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Jackalope wrote...
I was rewatching the 1990s version of 'Pride and Prejudice' and Firth's Darcy is sort of the same way.

I just had to interrupt to squee!!!!!! at this. :wub:

#2123
Ashara

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Jackalope wrote...

LessThanKate wrote...

Really, though...does a Mage Chantry sister make any more sense?


That's a lot of self-hating.  Reminds me of the really devout mage in DAO.


I was thinking of playing a mage that doesn't think the Circle is neecssary and who will friendmance Sebastian. I picture her as a kind of Bethany who is OK in the Circle. For me this makes sense, even more after seeing what blood mages can do to pleople you love, like your mother :(

#2124
Monica21

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Ashara wrote...

Jackalope wrote...

LessThanKate wrote...

Really, though...does a Mage Chantry sister make any more sense?


That's a lot of self-hating.  Reminds me of the really devout mage in DAO.


I was thinking of playing a mage that doesn't think the Circle is neecssary and who will friendmance Sebastian. I picture her as a kind of Bethany who is OK in the Circle. For me this makes sense, even more after seeing what blood mages can do to pleople you love, like your mother :(

In my friendmance playthrough with Sebastian I played under the assumption that taking vows wouldn't confine me to a Chantry. Hawke is certainly skilled enough to be a Seeker, and I don't think a mage Seeker is out of the question, just somewhat rare.

#2125
LessThanKate

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Jackalope wrote...

So, considering you rivaled/friended the same way...how do you feel about your Hawke?  Is she a bully and a thug, or just harsh but fair.  Just wondering.


If she's a bully, then she'd be like a girl in a schoolyard, pushing around one boy in particular because she likes him Image IPB

But I would say the latter, if anything. Someone who is kind and generous but not afraid to speak her mind, stick her nose in people's business or beat someone up...someone who would say, "No way, I'm not getting involved in this...now here's my opinion." I always had her send mages to the Circle, but because she believed in what she thought was the greater good. However, I also had a no exceptions, no excuses mentality with blood mages and demons...except when the game made me excuse it... 

So, the Sebastian situation I always saw as a matter of tough love. Good as his intentions may be, he needs to do right by his family (something that superceeds the templars versus mages and other various moral issues) and take responsibility. She'll pick him up and carry him to Starkhaven if need be, because...she's a warrior, and she totally could. It would be super easy.


Jackalope wrote...

Man, I am REALLY enjoying rivaling Izzy and Anders on this playthrough.  I love how Isabela pretty much says that Hawke thinks she's a better person thans she really is...but both Anders and Sebastian call her out on doing the right thing.  It's friggin' adorable.  And Anders now scares me...in a good way.


I have yet to befriend those two, I'm so used to being their rivals. Even though I'm not a big fan of Isabela's, I loved her "Questioning Beliefs" where she asks my Hawke if there's an orphanage or some puppies to save. Then Isabela laughed at her because she believed it and because she said life would be empty without helping others.

With Sebastian, I think it's less about right and wrong and more about being..."unscrupulous". This wasn't exactly my intention, but the lesson taught to a rival Sebastian is that when your cause is noble, you do what you must to achieve it. My mentality for this Hawke was the value of hard work, loyalty, and resposibility...not utilitarianism.

I actually had a similar problem with Alistair in the first game. I wanted him to rule with Anora and Loghain to work for redemption...and the only way to do that was to tell Alistair that people are only out for themselves. I never liked that there wasn't a more...eloquent way of putting it, but I rationalize that sometimes people need and extra push.


Jackalope wrote...

I screw up my first playthrough because I just didn't get the system.  I lost Fenris, Izzy, and Aveline before the final battle.  It's tough the first time around because you're sort of learning everyone's personalities while you're playing...and unless you think about who you have with you when you're just accepting a mission, it can go crazy.

I mean, Sebastian approves of you letting that escaped mage have a one-night stand at a bar.  Izzy, I could see her approving.  Anders and Varric, yes.  But Sebastian?  Well, I guess he doesn't judge.


I always had one eye on the Wiki, and even then the first time I lost Fenris. Now I try to plan a Hawke's personality based on who I want as friends/rivals. Maximizing friendship/rivalry as early as possible takes a...lot of micro managing.

And I was take aback by that Emille situation, too...I guess Sebastian, even though for the Circle, still wants Mages to have some happiness in their lives like human beings, not thoughtlessly wrangled like cattle.


Jackalope wrote...

I did refuse to do the 'No one can tell a prince what to do...or who to do it with' line.  His response cracks me up, but it sounded like something FemShep would say to Jacob.


I've used all the flirt lines for fear that skipping any one of them would disrupt the romance. I mean, the first time around, you have to tell him to "listen to your heart" just to get the option to flirt, so I didn't want to miss anything.

...If I could skip anyone and still be in the romance with him, I'd like to avoid "I'm just talking about two people, one night, and forgetting all your problems,". That was the absolute worst, in my opinion.


Ashara wrote...

Jackalope wrote...

LessThanKate wrote...

Really, though...does a Mage Chantry sister make any more sense?


That's a lot of self-hating. Reminds me of the really devout mage in DAO.


I was thinking of playing a mage that doesn't think the Circle is neecssary and who will friendmance Sebastian. I picture her as a kind of Bethany who is OK in the Circle. For me this makes sense, even more after seeing what blood mages can do to pleople you love, like your mother Image IPB


...I'm sorry, what? It has nothing to do with hate, I just don't think it's allowed. Mages, even those of noble birth, are not allowed to titles or land, nor can they join the Chantry. Remember that one blood mage you can chose to spare or not in the Mage quest? If Alistair is in the party, he'll point out that the Chantry will never take her. I doubt non-blood mages are allowed if they pinky promise not to use it.

And Bethany seems to be rather devout. It is possible to believe in the Maker and not be fond of how the Chantry does things. I see my Hawke as being more conservative, but sees that there's fault on both ends. I always liked having that option.