2724 réponses à ce sujet

[Chignon]

There'll be DA2 DLC news on Thursday. Let's hope it involves Starkhaven somehow.

[Indoctrination]

VampOrchid wrote...

So I don't get it. I am playing my first ever playthrough where I plan to romance Seb. If I follow through the entire thing Friend sided, does that mean when he leaves for Starkhaven, that him and Hawke will get hitched for real?

Oh and another question. If I am romancing him, when mama hawke dies, does he comfort hawke? If not him, then who?

I haven't done it yet myself, but I believe the friendship path leads to him re-dedicating himself to the Chantry as a monk, while the rival path causes him to want to return to Starkhaven and become prince. Unless of course you let Anders live in which case, he storms off to become prince regardless of your relationship with him.

[LessThanKate]

Jackalope wrote...

I think now that I'm taking Sebastian out of the Chantry in this playthrough, the fact that he's not a zealot comes through. Sure, he knocks Anders around, but those two are really polar to each other. Even his battle cries and compaion dialouge hint that he's just happy to be out there helping. "This is much more exciting than the Chantry!" "A duel?" (I laughed so hard) "I've never had so many opportunities to help people!" Sure, there's talk about the Maker, but it makes up just a portion of the dialogue.

In some ways, Sebastian is a better foil for Anders than Fenris is. It's not just different sides of Chantry law, but they symbolize very different mentalities. Anders is action; he'll never stop fighting for the Mage cause, but the dark side of that is also recklessness, leading to some questionable acts with varying consequences. Sebastian, on the other hand, better represents hesitance. He's even said himself sometimes the bravest thing to do is wait for the Maker to do justice. However good intended that was, the flipside of that is sloth, as Anders pointed out. Sebastian was waiting for a sign to tell him what to do about Starkhaven and....well, he got one.

I still resent that Sebastian gets called a zealot or preachy. Especially when you consider that most humans in this world (the world we've seen so far, anyway) are fairly religious to begin with. Since he's a brother in the Chantry, being just a little more serious in his faith, and mentioning the Maker a few more times...doesn't seem so extreme to me.

Jackalope wrote...

Chignon wrote...
classy, Hawke, very classy. She's clearly been around Isabela for too long. I was half expecting Hawke to try some other terrible flirt lines.

"Hey, babe, you can put your coins into my donation box anytime!"

/facepalm

"Greetings, this pew taken?"

Seriously, what other pick-up lines can you use on a priest?

"Peace be with you, and an [i]extra piece for you!"   

Modifié par LessThanKate, 14 septembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Having actually been around real world fanatics the only one in Dragon Age I would say is Meredith.

A fanatic never even CONSIDERS that they are wrong, or hesitates to follow what they think is right.
Justice is also a fanatic.

Whenever you bring something up that opposes what a fanatic holds they react badly. Sebastian does not do that, plus he can be willing to move past the Chantry.
To count as a true fanatic he would have to be unable to change his views, AND react badly to have his ideas opposed.

Fanatics are people who refuse to EVER listen to other ideas, and consider their views as true.
Sebastian listens to other people (Fenris, Merrill, and Hawke) and can actually consider their ideals. Like when he says that maybe the gods of the elves and the maker are really just the different names for the SAME entity.

[Xilizhra]

Spirits only ever exemplify one thing; they're basically all fanatics by nature. I don't think they have free will in the same way humans do.

Also, Meredith, even in the throes of her sword during the final battle, has one line where she briefly hesitates and wonders if this is all madness. It doesn't last, but self-doubt does exist there, and perhaps more than some give it credit for, especially since we only get to talk to Meredith extensively while the sword is doing its work on her.

There is, I feel, one thing Sebastian is fanatical about, but it's not his religion; it's Elthina. He's regrettably and permanently blind to Elthina's gross inadequacies at, well, everything important.

[Chignon]

I'd say fanatical may be the wrong word. He's extremely dedicated to her, yes. But then again Elthina was his surrogate mother.

Edit

Xilizhra wrote...

He's regrettably and permanently blind to Elthina's gross inadequacies at, well, everything important.

Not quite. He does confront Elthina about her not giving a public answer.

Modifié par Chignon, 14 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[Giggles_Manically]

He does question her a few times saying that she cant just sit by and do nothing.
Which she won an Olympic gold medal at I hear.

Truthfully though its hard to really question someone you have respect for.

[syllogi]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is, I feel, one thing Sebastian is fanatical about, but it's not his religion; it's Elthina. He's regrettably and permanently blind to Elthina's gross inadequacies at, well, everything important.

He may have a blind spot for her, but I wouldn't categorize that as fanaticism.  Sebastian's relationship with Elthina was too personal to call fanatic.  She was his mother figure and spiritual leader and teacher, and if not for her, he would never have committed himself to the Chantry, and would not have stayed in Kirkwall after his family was murdered.  Her approval meant everything to him, I would say he was more dedicated to her than the actual institution of the Chantry.

[Chignon]

TeenZombie wrote...

He may have a blind spot for her, but I wouldn't categorize that as fanaticism.  Sebastian's relationship with Elthina was too personal to call fanatic.  She was his mother figure and spiritual leader and teacher, and if not for her, he would never have committed himself to the Chantry, and would not have stayed in Kirkwall after his family was murdered.  Her approval meant everything to him, I would say he was more dedicated to her than the actual institution of the Chantry.

I agree, especially with the bolded part. I can see why it would be hard for him to realise that he might've put her on a too high pedestal.

[Jackalope]

I think Elthina's Codex mentions that she's highly respected in Kirkwall...but she's also getting old. If you assume Sebastian's known her for about 15 years, then maybe he saw her in her younger days. Maybe a thirty-five year old Reverend Mother would take a little more action than someone in her...60s? 70s? It's easy to stick by someone you've known for that long, even if perhaps retirement might suit them better. *cough*Emeric*cough*

[LessThanKate]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, Meredith, even in the throes of her sword during the final battle, has one line where she briefly hesitates and wonders if this is all madness. It doesn't last, but self-doubt does exist there, and perhaps more than some give it credit for, especially since we only get to talk to Meredith extensively while the sword is doing its work on her.

Just before the explosion, Meredith makes a reply, "...It breaks my heart. But we must be vigilant," so that in addition to lines during the fight where she has fleeting moments of clarity and doubt, I'd say she's just short of fanaticism. I'd say Anders is in that area, too, though it parallels the Knight Commander's.
 
It's funny, in a way. This game, this series as a whole deals with extremism, a lot of it in secular matters, yet when a religious character shows up people often divert their anger at them.

TeenZombie wrote...

He may have a blind spot for her, but I wouldn't categorize that as fanaticism. Sebastian's relationship with Elthina was too personal to call fanatic. She was his mother figure and spiritual leader and teacher, and if not for her, he would never have committed himself to the Chantry, and would not have stayed in Kirkwall after his family was murdered. Her approval meant everything to him, I would say he was more dedicated to her than the actual institution of the Chantry.

Yeah, I would say it's more along the lines of a student hungry for approval of his teacher. If he was to completely follow everything she said in the most literal way and without question...I doubt he would have interacted with Hawke, probably wouldn't leave the Chantry much, if at all, and...he may have very well been in the building when...Anders happened.

I've been curious, though, about how Sebastian fans feel about Elthina. She doesn't seem to be very popular, and the reasons are understandable, but...I'm conflicted. I work at a retirement home, I've wanted to punch a lot of old ladies, but I certainly did not cheer when she died as some people have done. Her lax behavior on the important matters can be frustrating, but...maybe the way she presented herself prevented me from disliking her. Even when you bark at her (and why you even have the option of going into a church only to tell the head nun to stay out of your way is beyond me) she's polite. She might be a contributing factor in Sebastian's inability to make an important decision, but she's also the reason for his kindness and the reason you get to meet Sebastian at all.

[Jackalope]

I hated her the first time I played. But I was also totally pro-mage at the time, Friendmance Anders, and I couldn't even figure out how I was suppose to play pro-Templar. I didn't like how she died, I just thought she was a little old lady that wasn't much use.

Now, watching Grace and Trask kidnap Hawke's sibling for the third time...Kirkwall is a pretty screwed up place. Half of these people needed to go to a nuthouse. This rivalmanced Hawke refused to take sides in the beginning of Act III and yelled at Merideth and Orsino after dealing with blood mages during their missions. She finally sided with the templars, not because she was anti-mage, but because at least as viscountess Hawke can take control of that place.

This time around, I can totally appriciate Elthina backing off. I think from her standpoint, being too aggressive with either Merideth or Orsino would just fan the flames. Like making sudden moves in front of a strange dog. I don't agree that was the solution, but then again, my Hawke was sort of her foil. She thought yelling at the two of them would work, and look how that went.

I also think the Chantry is a pretty militant religion, and Andraste was a warrior and a saint. Elthina being a pacifist and respectful to Orsino is sort of unexpected.

[syllogi]

LessThanKate wrote...
I've been curious, though, about how Sebastian fans feel about Elthina. She doesn't seem to be very popular, and the reasons are understandable, but...I'm conflicted. I work at a retirement home, I've wanted to punch a lot of old ladies, but I certainly did not cheer when she died as some people have done. Her lax behavior on the important matters can be frustrating, but...maybe the way she presented herself prevented me from disliking her. Even when you bark at her (and why you even have the option of going into a church only to tell the head nun to stay out of your way is beyond me) she's polite. She might be a contributing factor in Sebastian's inability to make an important decision, but she's also the reason for his kindness and the reason you get to meet Sebastian at all.

I feel sorry for Elthina, and think she unfairly gets a bad rap from people, when she probably honestly thought that she was doing the right thing by not taking sides, and letting Meredith have her way.

Like I've said in the past, the Circle has been the norm for about a thousand years.  Under normal circumstances, trusting Meredith, even if she's a harsh leader, would not be considered a terrible mistake.  These are not normal times, but Elthina doesn't know this.  So, even if there were no Sebastian, I would have sympathy for her.  I think taking the path of non-violence can actually be the hardest thing to do, especially in a place like Kirkwall. 

[Naqey]

TeenZombie wrote...

LessThanKate wrote...
I've been curious, though, about how Sebastian fans feel about Elthina. She doesn't seem to be very popular, and the reasons are understandable, but...I'm conflicted. I work at a retirement home, I've wanted to punch a lot of old ladies, but I certainly did not cheer when she died as some people have done. Her lax behavior on the important matters can be frustrating, but...maybe the way she presented herself prevented me from disliking her. Even when you bark at her (and why you even have the option of going into a church only to tell the head nun to stay out of your way is beyond me) she's polite. She might be a contributing factor in Sebastian's inability to make an important decision, but she's also the reason for his kindness and the reason you get to meet Sebastian at all.

I feel sorry for Elthina, and think she unfairly gets a bad rap from people, when she probably honestly thought that she was doing the right thing by not taking sides, and letting Meredith have her way.

Like I've said in the past, the Circle has been the norm for about a thousand years.  Under normal circumstances, trusting Meredith, even if she's a harsh leader, would not be considered a terrible mistake.  These are not normal times, but Elthina doesn't know this.  So, even if there were no Sebastian, I would have sympathy for her.  I think taking the path of non-violence can actually be the hardest thing to do, especially in a place like Kirkwall. 

It always bothered me how much badmouthing Elthina seems to attract. I disagree that her behaviour might be related to her age. I rather think it's a conviction, a consistent stance she's taken all of her life: trying to go the peaceful way and appeasing people as well as possible to keep some kind of equilibrium of forces.

If I didn't know that this just doesn't work for Thedas, I would actually take the same stance as Elthina does. After all it is what Thedas badly needs. To only slightly tip the scales in one direction... boom! Tip the scales in favour of the mages: Tevinter is not far away. Tip them pro-templar: here we are in Kirkwall.

And yet we all blame her for what she does. And why would we do this (me included)? Because we KNOW for a fact that her way of handling things doesn't work (even if we are on our first playthrough, the whole Varric frame narrative indicates as much).We have the meta perspective. People in history don't. One just has to recall the pre-WW II appeasement policy of the European nations towards Germany. They were convinced they were taking the right decision, WW I horrors always at the back of their minds.

[Meyne]

With Elthina, I always remember my conversations with Alistair.  If you really grill him on the Templars, he reveals that lyrium is not necessary for their job and he believes Templars are addicted to it because the Chantry controls lyrium trade and this forces the Templars to stay beholden to the Chantry and not go off and make their own, militant version of it. Because the Templars have two jobs that could come into conflict - they are not just the Mage's keepers, but they are the sword of the Chantry. When an Exalted March goes forth, it is with Templars marching (possibly armies of Orlais or other countries involved, but it is Templars relied upon).  When the Chantry must enforce something, the Templars are the enforcers.

So Elthina has a huge problem in Kirkwall - not only is Meredith political (she oked Dumar being Viscount, the Templars have a HUGE say in who rules and what they do), but she's on one side of the debate.  Had it been any other two groups that the Chantry could sway, Elthina would have tried pacifism first I'm sure but if push came to shove, she'd set her foot down and have the Templars enforce it.  Problem is the debate is between Mages and Templars, and so the Templars are not easily controlled.  Firstly, she'd be seen as meddling in something that is THEIR thing and THEIR responsibility, and secondly if she chose something against the Templars, who'd enforce it if they decided she was wrong?

She kept the peace by appealing to Orsino (note how she begs him his wisdom) and by reminding Meredith of her duties to the Chantry ("Yes, you're the Mage's Keepers, but you are OUR Templars").  If she full-on backs Meredith more, then she's given Meredith consent to gain further political power and to possibly push the mages to the point where one of them is doing something to cause a war (no Anders needed).  However, if she tells Meredith to back down then she risks Meredith turning on her, claiming that her works are of the Maker and that Elthina has stepped too far out of line to influence the Templar's duty with Mages.  She could ignore her more, marginalizing her and pushing the mages still, or she could outright start chasing more shadows as she was at the end and claim Elthina has been influenced by the mages or (worse) a Malificar.

I think it is no coincidence that she expected Sister Nightingale.  She probably convinced the Divine to send someone 'quitely' to assess the situation so that Meredith would not think Elthina was trying to get her removed behind her back.  She probably expected whatever the Divine's agent found, in whoever's favor, would cause more people to be sent, people that would see the situation that was happening in the Gallows.  That is why she said she wouldn't budge - she knew she could not do more to control Meredith than reminders of faith, but she was not willing to abandon people in their hour of need if an Exalted March did run through out of necessity, perhaps over guilt that it had come to that.

And while Lelianna did make it sound like "OH NOES MAGES", we see Cassandra understand that provocation was totally on Meredith (either "provoked the mages" or "provoked Hawke", but she seems to lay the blame totally at Meredith's feet for creating the situation).  What Lelianna found is enough to move the Divine's hand, but it need not be the result of the total investigation nor influence the final action, as we see with Cassandra seeking Hawke to calm the tides of war.  It is merely an excuse to send more Seekers of the Divine and to see for themselves what has happened - even if that secret group WERE stirring trouble, the Divine could just as easily see Meredith's rule as a breeding ground for such a group to recruit people and so wish to rectify that.

Elthina knew that, I think.  She knew her powers were limited when her blades were on one side of the conflict and likely to buck her if she appeared to side against them.  So she was stuck with trying to keep the neutral ground until the Divine did something.  Yes she is a Grand Cleric, but words only get you so far when people with the blades suddenly decide that "might makes right" and it isn't the Grand Cleric holding the sword, is she?

Also, on another topic, I think I'll try to make a fish and egg pie, going off Fish Pie recipes I found and, like the Dragon Age Wiki says, tossing in some dried fruits (figs and dates in my case).

[LessThanKate]

Jackalope wrote...

I hated her the first time I played. But I was also totally pro-mage at the time, Friendmance Anders, and I couldn't even figure out how I was suppose to play pro-Templar. I didn't like how she died, I just thought she was a little old lady that wasn't much use.

Now, watching Grace and Trask kidnap Hawke's sibling for the third time...Kirkwall is a pretty screwed up place. Half of these people needed to go to a nuthouse. This rivalmanced Hawke refused to take sides in the beginning of Act III and yelled at Merideth and Orsino after dealing with blood mages during their missions. She finally sided with the templars, not because she was anti-mage, but because at least as viscountess Hawke can take control of that place.

I don't think being pro-templar necessarily means you must also be anti-mage. It's ideally about keping the peace and preserving their way of life, and that includes protecting mages from themselves. This game refuses to reveal to us a clear answer, which side is the right one to take. For as many example of templars absuing their power to oppress mages, there's examples of mages who manifest why the Circle exist in the first place.

Naqey wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...


I feel sorry for Elthina, and think she unfairly gets a bad rap from people, when she probably honestly thought that she was doing the right thing by not taking sides, and letting Meredith have her way.

Like I've said in the past, the Circle has been the norm for about a thousand years. Under normal circumstances, trusting Meredith, even if she's a harsh leader, would not be considered a terrible mistake. These are not normal times, but Elthina doesn't know this. So, even if there were no Sebastian, I would have sympathy for her. I think taking the path of non-violence can actually be the hardest thing to do, especially in a place like Kirkwall.

It always bothered me how much badmouthing Elthina seems to attract. I disagree that her behaviour might be related to her age. I rather think it's a conviction, a consistent stance she's taken all of her life: trying to go the peaceful way and appeasing people as well as possible to keep some kind of equilibrium of forces.

If I didn't know that this just doesn't work for Thedas, I would actually take the same stance as Elthina does. After all it is what Thedas badly needs. To only slightly tip the scales in one direction... boom! Tip the scales in favour of the mages: Tevinter is not far away. Tip them pro-templar: here we are in Kirkwall.

And yet we all blame her for what she does. And why would we do this (me included)? Because we KNOW for a fact that her way of handling things doesn't work (even if we are on our first playthrough, the whole Varric frame narrative indicates as much).We have the meta perspective. People in history don't. One just has to recall the pre-WW II appeasement policy of the European nations towards Germany. They were convinced they were taking the right decision, WW I horrors always at the back of their minds.

In my struggling efforts to rivalmance Sebastian, I told Elthina the "You're useless" dialogue option. Without so much as a scowl, she told me about the Chantry being a gentle mother rather than a whipping father.

If I recall correctly, it is her job to make sure the Knight Commander is fit for duty and to relieve her if not. She probably wanted to give Meredith the benefit of the doubt, and by the time her reason is comoletely consumed, it's much too late. So perhaps a gentle mother is not something Kirkwall needed, but to me Elthina's death was a good showing that those people could not solve their own problems, something she refused to see. 

[Illusionary Ennui]

LessThanKate wrote...

In my struggling efforts to rivalmance Sebastian, I told Elthina the "You're useless" dialogue option. Without so much as a scowl, she told me about the Chantry being a gentle mother rather than a whipping father.

If I recall correctly, it is her job to make sure the Knight Commander is fit for duty and to relieve her if not. She probably wanted to give Meredith the benefit of the doubt, and by the time her reason is comoletely consumed, it's much too late. So perhaps a gentle mother is not something Kirkwall needed, but to me Elthina's death was a good showing that those people could not solve their own problems, something she refused to see. 

Might I suggest my guide, linked in my signature, for help on rivalmancing the prince?

Any road, I agree with your sentiments on Elthina and it is very true that she shouldn't be entirely responsible it all - we each are responsible for our own actions, not the actions of others. We can influence, but we cannot control.

Modifié par Illusionary Ennui, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:57 .

[Naqey]

Meyne wrote...


I think it is no coincidence that she expected Sister Nightingale.  She probably convinced the Divine to send someone 'quitely' to assess the situation so that Meredith would not think Elthina was trying to get her removed behind her back.  She probably expected whatever the Divine's agent found, in whoever's favor, would cause more people to be sent, people that would see the situation that was happening in the Gallows.  That is why she said she wouldn't budge - she knew she could not do more to control Meredith than reminders of faith, but she was not willing to abandon people in their hour of need if an Exalted March did run through out of necessity, perhaps over guilt that it had come to that.

And yet, Elthina seems less then delighted about the arrival of Sister Nightingale. I honestly don't think that she had any part in the Divine sending Leliana to Kirkwall. "It [the situation in Kirkwall] has drawn more attention than I would like" seems to indicate the Grand Cleric's distress. She already anticipates what judgment Sister Nightingale will arrive at, and fears all the implications it is going to have for Kirkwall and Thedas. I don't think she would ever have encouraged a move like this if there was even the slightest chance of it sparking off an Exalted March against Kirkwall. Meredith and Orsino's constant fights seem like children's play in comparison!

[Meyne]

Naqey wrote...

Meyne wrote...


I think it is no coincidence that she expected Sister Nightingale.  She probably convinced the Divine to send someone 'quitely' to assess the situation so that Meredith would not think Elthina was trying to get her removed behind her back.  She probably expected whatever the Divine's agent found, in whoever's favor, would cause more people to be sent, people that would see the situation that was happening in the Gallows.  That is why she said she wouldn't budge - she knew she could not do more to control Meredith than reminders of faith, but she was not willing to abandon people in their hour of need if an Exalted March did run through out of necessity, perhaps over guilt that it had come to that.

And yet, Elthina seems less then delighted about the arrival of Sister Nightingale. I honestly don't think that she had any part in the Divine sending Leliana to Kirkwall. "It [the situation in Kirkwall] has drawn more attention than I would like" seems to indicate the Grand Cleric's distress. She already anticipates what judgment Sister Nightingale will arrive at, and fears all the implications it is going to have for Kirkwall and Thedas. I don't think she would ever have encouraged a move like this if there was even the slightest chance of it sparking off an Exalted March against Kirkwall. Meredith and Orsino's constant fights seem like children's play in comparison!

Hmm, I forgot about that line.  Though I suspected more in my thinking that she wasn't exactly wanting a march but became resigned to the possibility.  She wasn't anti-mage if she kept appealing to Orsino but attempting to hold Meredith at bay with reminders of duties, so I figured she wanted someone who had influence over the Order - more directly than she would, or at least outside of Kirkwall so she could not be accused of being influenced in wanting to take Meredith down a notch - to take notice of things.  Because the Templars have more political sway in Kirkwall than they should, more control over every-day life than they should (even Aveline isn't happy with how they treat the Guard), which ties Elthina's hands a lot more.  Especially in the post-Dumar times when Meredith only has to flex a bit of  muscle and she could be de-facto Viscount.

I dunno, her actions seem far too much like "delaying" actions instead of just an expectation of being followed.  How she dealt with Meredith and Orsino at the beginning of Act 3 came off to me that way.  And Elthina doesn't seem too much like she'd just put something off indefinitely just hoping it would be ok in the end. The only other think I could think of is she was delaying for some of Meredith's own people to turn against her and appeal for a change in command, but if Meredith has enough backers in the ranks or people just willing to do as told then that doesn't pan out either.

Modifié par Meyne, 16 septembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[Nhadalie]

So the next DLC is going to be about Tallis, and basically slaughtering your way to some sort of treasure because of her.

I am so disappointed. I was really hoping they'd be announcing something about Sebastian.


I'm fairly neutral about most of the more important characters in DA2. Well. Other than Orsino. But I'd rather not get into that debate, simply because I don't have the time for it these days. I think you have to play both pro-templar, and pro-mage to get a good feel for what's really going on in Kirkwall. It's just like any conflict in the real world. The information you get from other people about it may not be accurate, and Hawke never really figures out who is "right" and who is "wrong" in it. It's much more complicated than blindly saying "the mages are oppressed!" or "the templars do their best to protect everyone." Because there are always cases that show either side to be wrong.

[Chignon]

Nhadalie wrote...

So the next DLC is going to be about Tallis, and basically slaughtering your way to some sort of treasure because of her.

I am so disappointed. I was really hoping they'd be announcing something about Sebastian.

Don't be sad, Nhadalie. There was still this:

http://desmond.yfrog...e=640&ysize=640

Better luck next time, eh?

[Giggles_Manically]

Well if its about crashing a party who better to bring than a Prince along?

We can always make Sebastian distract them with a long winded sermon or something.
I kid I kid mostly.

[esper]

I think that Starkhaven will be a post-campaing dlc because of the ending, so it will properly be one of the last.

[Nhadalie]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well if its about crashing a party who better to bring than a Prince along?

We can always make Sebastian distract them with a long winded sermon or something.
I kid I kid mostly.

Well, he is very shiny too. Maybe he would make a good distraction.


I know it's still a possibility. I'm not really all that excited by the new DLC though, because I'd rather have the Sebby one if that makes any sense. This just makes me happy that I didn't stay up until 1am to watch the announcement.

[Giggles_Manically]

As long as FemHawke gets a dress absolutely festooned with ruffles I am good.

God when I heard that I almost died.