2724 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

esper wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

If Hawke was not there, he would have stayed with the Chantry.

I actually think it is opposite. If Hawke is not there Sebastian are forced to return Starkhaven no matter what because the explosion. I even think he might be forced to do that even if Hawke is there.

I don't know, after he met the demon he was shaked up, he didn't feel like taking back his lands, he only does if Hawke pesters him to do it.

[esper]

Mr.House wrote...

esper wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

If Hawke was not there, he would have stayed with the Chantry.

I actually think it is opposite. If Hawke is not there Sebastian are forced to return Starkhaven no matter what because the explosion. I even think he might be forced to do that even if Hawke is there.

I don't know, after he met the demon he was shaked up, he didn't feel like taking back his lands, he only does if Hawke pesters him to do it.

Sure he was shaken up, but I simply don't think he has a choice in the matter, Without Elthina's protection I am not sure he has any choice but to return to his home country (city) and there he will always be a prince wherever we want to or not.

[Jackalope]

I think the faith aspect should stay as well.  He already went from
hedonist prince to devout priest, going back almost seems cheap. 
Conversations about the elves and the Qun suggest that he may be more
open-minded about matters of Faith, like Liliana.

Quething wrote...

I would absolutely hate to see Sebastian lose his faith. It's the most important and interesting thing about him. Tragedy and suffering can have its place (though I'm not sure how much more suffering you'd think he needs beyond having his whole family killed and then his surrogate mother who he'd sworn to protect butchered in front of him by a man he could have stopped, had he only been more decisive and acted on his instincts sooner), but I find them far more interesting when characters react to them by ultimately strengthening themselves and becoming more fully themselves and living more fully to their potential, rather than breaking and becoming lesser and alien.

More decisive.  Yeah.

If anything, I think the big character change we should see in Sebstian is for him to stop wavering.  Of all the Bioware characters I've even seen in a game, Sebastian is the Hamlet.  "Do I do this?  Or that?  But what if I do this?  Or that?  Ahhhhh!"  I watched the Olivier version of Hamlet for the first time a few weeks ago, and he even sticks this extra line in the begninng about how this is a play about a man who couldn't make up his mind.

Now, Hamlet was sort of nuts, and mentally, Sebastian pretty sane...by Kirkwall standards.  So while things didn't turn out well for Hamlet, I could see Sebastian going either way, depending on gameplay.  I'm sure one ending could have him maturing and finally making a firm choice on something.  Or an downer ending where the lack of a decisive action causes him to lose everything.

(Naturally, I doubt I would ever play the downer version...but that's why we have YouTube.)

[Chignon]

Something Blooming Sometime posted this excellent character analysis on tumblr and I thought I'd share it with you.

Sebastian is, it is fair to say, by no means one of the most beloved characters in this fandom. In fact, he attracts a fair amount of vitriol, largely from people who are massive Anders fans (which I totally admit to being) and also from people who say that he’s a bigoted religious nut — which is too silly of an assumption for me to bother proving it’s not true. Other people who’ve actually thought it through (and flutiebear’s commentary about him is excellent) dislike him because he’s boring or lacks perspective or is up to his eyeballs in privilege. I was definitely guilty of this in my first playthrough. I was like, RELIGIOUS DOUCHEFACE ALL UP IN MY BIOWARE, GAH.

BUT YOU GUYS. Sebastian is a really interesting, really sad character. I’ll tell you why after the cut.
Sebastian, as a DLC character, I think, falls unfortunately flat in his in-game presentation. We don’t see these things happening on screen to Sebastian the same way we see slavers coming for Fenris or Aveline’s husband dying or **** going down with Justice or Bartrand or the Eluvian or whatever crisis is currently brewing. His two quests (I refuse to count Duty, **** Duty) are both sorta impersonal. The first one is to go talk it out with the woman who killed his family, except turns out that it was just a demon all along — so an impersonal source for a really personal tragedy. Which sucks, and Sebastian’s really affected by it, but we don’t see him interacting with anyone he knows and really loves in a desperate setting, we don’t see him get to vent his fury at the source of his problems because the source of his problems is inhuman so it would be pointless. And then in his Act 3 quest, it’s just like, “lol politics, lol foreshadowing” and there’s nothing really character-defining. But just because we don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

We get these really interesting codex entries about Sebastian and what he’s been up to that aren’t at all clear when you’re playing the game. If you don’t read them, it seems like he’s just been standing around in the Chantry for seven years, because that’s where he is whenever Hawke wants to go talk to him. But in actuality between Act I and Act II he’s been running around the Free Marches trying to gain support for a claim to Starkhaven (at the time being ruled by Lady Harriman through her proxy, Goran Vael). But time and time again, he gets rejected. Brushed off, like what’s happened to his family is nothing, like whether there are murderers ruling Starkhaven doesn’t matter. And three years of that obviously gets really tiresome. When you’re the only one advocating for yourself, of course you start to doubt whether what you’re doing is the right thing. So is it any wonder that Sebastian’s encounter with Allure made him want to sit back and think about what to do for a while? This isn’t him fecklessly following his whims; he’s been trying consistently for three years and getting nowhere, and so the instinct to reevaluate, to get a second opinion (Hawke’s) is understandable. Additionally, he actually tried to make up his mind and return to the Chantry - “but was turned away by Grand Cleric Elthina, who believed he had not yet fully committed to either course.” So, rejected again, brushed off again, once again seen as not serious or adult enough to know his own mind.

See a pattern here?

The search for validity is the central concern for Sebastian’s character, for someone to take him seriously, and this is why he latches onto Hawke. Others have said that Sebastian differs from the other companions in being the only one that follows Hawke because he wants to and not because he needs to, but I don’t see that as true at all. Rejected by the nobility, rejected by the Chantry, Sebastian doesn’t have a place where he’s respected, where he’s not an inconvenience. Even Elthina who clearly loves him see him as a child that needs to be reigned it and has no eye at all for the politics that are so problematic for him. She wants him to ignore completely that the perpetrators of his family’s deaths are walking free, and he just can’t accept that. Who could? But Hawke doesn’t delegitimize him. All Hawke cares about is whether he can shoot straight, and that’s good enough for him/her. For Sebastian, that easy acceptance is something completely novel, and it’s the reason why he sticks with Hawke, why he’s as much of an outcast as any of the other companions, in spite of his privilege.

Speaking of privilege — there’s this idea that compared to everyone else, Sebastian was just having a grand old time. But, you guys. His entire ****ing family. I’ve lost one parent to violence, and let me tell you, it is terrible and horrible and all the thinks you would think it would be, and a bunch of things you wouldn’t, and then you go really Catholic for a while and then you freak out and hate God for a while and then you gain a bunch of weight and want to die. SO IT’S NO CUP OF TEA IS WHAT I’M SAYING. And yes, all of the companions have ****ed up backgrounds, a lot of their experiences are actually worse than Sebastian’s. But playing the “who’s the woobiest” game is just not a useful exercise. People don’t experience grief relatively.

So of course Sebastian flips his **** when Elthina and also who knows how many of his other Chantry bros gets killed. Elthian’s the only person to ever loved him unconditionally (besides Hawke in the friend!mance. A Sebastian rival!mance is basically like, “Do these things and I will respect and perhaps love you. Also, it’s not a real relationship unless we’re having sex,” which is totally a whole different story. I actually don’t like either Sebastian romance very much at all, but let’s not get off track). So the only woman who’s ever loved him unconditionally just went up in smoke, along with a place that gave him some measure peace, even if it wasn’t enough, and there are fans who are saying his reaction to this is too extreme?

Like, holy ****. The Chantry-boom is justifiable. The Chantry-boom is even necessary, depending on your goals and your outlook. But the Chantry-boom is not right. So **** yes oversized reaction.

But what’s most important about the whole “I will bring such an army” thing is — it’s not just about the Chantry-boom and Elthina. Everything sucks, and then you have a choice. Kill Anders, let Anders live, we’re all familiar with what goes down. If you murder-knife Anders, Sebastian will fight the Templars with you, and he’ll do it with no hesitation. And obviously he’ll go the other way too, also with no hesitation, and a lot of people have pointed to this as evidence of his waffling behavior, which it is, but more than that, it’s evidence of his intense trust and friendship for Hawke. As I’ve said, he sees Hawke as the only person who actually takes him seriously.

He’s got this ally, he’s got this friend, he’s got this guy who thinks that Sebastian is worth having around, that Sebastian’s battles are worth fighting, that Sebastian’s pain is real worth hearing about. Even Elthina, who loved him no matter what he did, was always delegitimizing different emotions he was feeling, and it was definitely a teacher/student sort of relationship. But with Hawke, they’re bros, they’re allies, and Sebastian’s never been valued like that before, and he will definitely stick with this person.

And all of that is what makes it suck so much if you go the opposite way. When you decide to let Anders live, Sebastian will protest — quite fairly, by the way — that what, are you serious, you’re going to let this guy live and he just killed who knows how many people and now the Circle is being annulled and it’s all his fault, what the ****.

And you know what Hawke says?

“Do not interfere, Sebastian.”

This is the most important point for me — we’ll never know what Sebastian would say if Hawke had rationalized it, or said we’ll deal with Anders later, or tried to explain, or even offered some simple sympathy or comfort. Hawke, someone who Sebastian considered his closest friend, refusing to even lay a hand on his shoulder, to even recognize how much what just happens ****ing sucks, not just for Hawke and Anders, but for Sebastian personally. Just like those three years he was running around trying to get support to take back the throne from the people who murdered his ****ing family and was just met with “lol nope” the whole time, just like when he comes back and Elthina won’t even let him rejoin the Chantry, just like he was constantly marginalized as the unimportant third son — and now here’s Hawke, treating Sebastian like some interloper, like it’s none of his business, even though it so clearly is his business, to make sure justice is done for a woman he loved. Hawke won’t even recognize Sebastian’s pain. With five words he/she manages to completely knock out the foundation of their entire friendship.

For me, this is the real betrayal. It’s not about Anders. It’s about Hawke. It’s about being brushed off, marginalized. It’s about realizing that once again he’s been tagging along with a group that doesn’t appreciate him or realize what the has to give. It’s freaking heart-breaking.

I really, really wish there were more dialogue options here. I know that some players would definitely have a “Stay out of it” response to Sebastian, but I hated that it was impossible to have any compassion for the man. Come to think of it, it’s dumb that the entire friend/rivalry system was “The Chantry is awesome!” vs. “You should go be a Prince!” Sebastian in-game definitely does not have his opinion on mages firmly settled yet, and he is much much less vitrolic about it than Fenris, so I’d love a rivalry mechanic where you just tell him that the Chantry is wrong. Sebastian was never following Elthina or the Chantry blindly, after all — Elthina wanted him to make up his mind and stop palling around with Hawke, after all, but he sticks with Hawke anyway, which is really important to remember. He also criticizes her at times: he wants her to just say something so that the mages will realize that she’s not ever going to be on their side and maybe calm dawn (and Sebastian knows her better than anyone in Hawke’s party, and knows that she doesn’t support the mage cause at all — and she pretty conclusively doesn’t, as has been proven elsewhere). Sebastian’s own view of mages is definitely a lot more complex than MAGES BAD CHANTRY GOOD: he’s been following around Hawke’s whacky apostate-ridden crew for three years and will even romance a mage!Hawke.

When he suggests turning the apostates in, it is to him a reluctant duty, not something he wants to do or necessarily feelsis right. But he’s also run into like a billiondy freaking blood mages on those same adventures and he has to be pragmatic. He’s not a Chantry stooge as far as the mage thing goes. If Sebastian lacks perspective, it’s because Hawke refuses to talk to him about anything except his own ****ing situation. And none of the other companions really take an interest (which is why I love Sebanders but WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT LATER GUYS OKAY).

Additionally, it is terribly horribly unfair to take the “razing Kirkwall to the ground” comments seriously in light of Hawke’s betrayal — he’s in the heat of the moment still, and in the long-run, he doesn’t want more innocents dead. After all, in his quest in Act 2 he wants you to go with him to the Harimann estate not to murder the **** out of everybody for killing his entire ****ing family (and I totally would have been with him on that) but to talk it out. This is not a man driven by an inescapable need for vengeance. This is a man very understandably running on his impulses whenever somebody murders the **** out of people he loves, but I can very very definitely see it all going differently if Hawke had said anything besides “GTFO, the adults are talking.”

Whether he does become a Prince or whether he continues to fail miserably at everything a la wandering!drunk!Alistair is up for debate. But you can’t just dismiss the guy as dull or lacking drive or a slave to his whims. It took me a while to realize what a fascinating guy he was, but I go there in the end.

The only part I'd vehemently disagree about is her assessment of the rivalry path and "romance".

Modifié par Chignon, 31 octobre 2011 - 11:01 .

[Xilizhra]

It'd be nice if there were more dialogue options, but now is really not the time. The templars are already getting mage-choppity, demons are starting to pop up, and it's precisely the wrong time to engage in a complicated moral debate. Furthermore, this might only make sense in the mage ending (like, quite frankly, a lot of things), but if Sebastian's loyalty would be compromised at all by having Anders along, there's no guarantee he wouldn't betray Hawke to the templars; in fact, he already talked about betraying Merrill and Anders to them, so why shouldn't he do the same now? Like Anders' quest, it's all or nothing, and if Sebastian can't handle all, then he gets nothing.

[Chignon]

I don't see it as a betrayal but we've had this discussion a million times before, Xilizhra.

Edit

Also his loyalty would be "compromised" because Anders killed Elthina and pulverised the Chantry, not solely because he is a mage.

Modifié par Chignon, 01 novembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't see it as a betrayal but we've had this discussion a million times before, Xilizhra.

Well, it wasn't actually a betrayal because he didn't do anything except talk to Fenris. But had he gone through with it...
I suppose he's not legally affiliated with Hawke in any way, so you'd be hard-pressed to make any charge stick other than on moral grounds. But I'm quite happy to hold said moral grounds.

Also his loyalty would be "compromised" because Anders killed Elthina and pulverised the Chantry, not solely because he is a mage.

I'm not saying his anger is unreasonable, but quite frankly I need Anders' help to deal with the templars, given that we're already outnumbered and he's quite powerful (I also just plain don't want him dead). I don't believe Sebastian could be counted on to remain loyal regardless, just like I don't believe him staying loyal to my own cause even if I did kill Anders.

[Chignon]

No, it wasn't a betrayal because he didn't go behind anyone's back. He clearly stated what he intended to do and never did go through with it in the end. But as I said, we've talked this topic to death on TCR.

And we simply have to disagree on the loyalty issue. If he has stayed with Hawke thus far, especially if he has helped her defend the Circle, I really see no reason for him to suddenly go back on that.

[Xilizhra]

And we simply have to disagree on the loyalty issue. If he has stayed with Hawke thus far, especially if he has helped her defend the Circle, I really see no reason for him to suddenly go back on that.

I think my worries are linked to the Chantry in Kirkwall being, at that point, a nonentity. It's purely mages vs. templars, and he still has reservations about siding with the mages. I'd like to have his help in the war, but... what could I do to keep getting it?

[Chignon]

Don't betray his trust and I think you should be fine. Although I think he's never going to be an "agent for the mage revolution" as you might want him to be.
He said it himself, he finds both sides to be despicable. I doubt he'd go to one extreme or the other.

[Xilizhra]

This could be problematic. It's seriously unlikely that all the actions of the revolution will be pretty, and the quickest peace may not always be the best. I keep thinking that he'd drift away and side with the Chantry in trying to bring about an end to the conflict, and if Anders lives... he'll probably do the same thing, just be angrier at Hawke. What would motivate him to remain with the mages?

[LessThanKate]

Chignon wrote...

Something Blooming Sometime posted this excellent character analysis on tumblr and I thought I'd share it with you.

*snip*

]The only part I'd vehemently disagree about is her assessment of the rivalry path and "romance".

I saw that, and yeah, it made me feel terribly guilty about becoming his rival.

I've actually seen quite a bit of stuff on tumblr in support of Sebastian being a chaste romance, and against the idea that he somehow needs to be involved physically in order to validate himself as a character. I agree to an extent; I wouldn't want to force him to do anything he truly did not want to do. However, being his rival, at least to me, isn't about a lack of respect for his choices, but about assuming responsibility.

Still, I am relieved other people feel that way. Always seemed everyone was just IDGAF when it came to sending him away to spare Anders, and it doesn't help Hawke's only rebuttle is "Don't interfere." Don't interefere? Someone just took away the foundation of his adult life! He made some strong threats, but for him to stay on the sidelines and let it all happen would be ridiculous.

Even though I would still have some Hawkes kill Anders--not an easy decision by any means--I would have loved the option of sparing Anders and at least trying to talk down Sebastian, even if it were in vain. 

[Chignon]

@Kate: Don't feel guilty just because someone feels differently than you do. If it helps you in any way, I thought of it was Hawke helping Sebastian to learn about responsibility.

@Xilizhra: I'm not sure I can answer that.

[Xilizhra]

Still, I am relieved other people feel that way. Always seemed everyone was just IDGAF when it came to sending him away to spare Anders, and it doesn't help Hawke's only rebuttle is "Don't interfere." Don't interefere? Someone just took away the foundation of his adult life! He made some strong threats, but for him to stay on the sidelines and let it all happen would be ridiculous.

Well, I think some people are peeved that a companion is demanding that another one be killed. Even Anders and Fenris never sank to that level.

@Xilizhra: I'm not sure I can answer that.

And that's why I can't in good conscience kill Anders. I don't believe I can rely on Sebastian's support. He's just not the sort of person to enter this sort of conflict. Of course, most of my companions (everyone except Merrill and Anders) aren't either, but none of them ask for a sacrifice of that magnitude.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 novembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[Chignon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I think some people are peeved that a companion is demanding that another one be killed. Even Anders and Fenris never sank to that level.

None of the other companions just had to witness what he did.

Xilizhra wrote...

And that's why I can't in good conscience kill Anders. I don't believe I can rely on Sebastian's support. He's just not the sort of person to enter this sort of conflict. Of course, most of my companions (everyone except Merrill and Anders) aren't either, but none of them ask for a sacrifice of that magnitude).

You're not sure because I can't answer your question?

I wouldn't place so much trust in Anders either. Who knows when he'll repeat what he did to Ella.

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...
What would motivate him to remain with the mages?

Why not Hawke's friendship and support?

*assuming Hawke supports mage freedom*

[Xilizhra]

None of the other companions just had to witness what he did.

Actually... Fenris had something close. I'm not actually certain how seeing your surrogate mother be blown up by a distant compatriot and seeing your sister turn out to be a mage who sold you out to your former master directly compare, but they're both certainly of great magnitude. But Fenris was willing to go along with not killing Varania. Of course, Varania actually meant something to Fenris, so perhaps that's why...

You're not sure because I can't answer your question?

I'm not sure because so far, no one can.

I wouldn't place so much trust in Anders either. Who knows when he'll repeat what he did to Ella.

Theoretically possible, but I hope to help him move beyond that. Death is just... so final that I'm hesitant to deal it to anyone not trying to kill me. In fact, I think the only person I've ever killed who hasn't been in self-defense is Kelder, and he begged me to do it.

Why not Hawke's friendship and support?

*assuming Hawke supports mage freedom*

Support for taking back Starkhaven? Maybe... if the mages were an integral part of Sebastian's return, he may feel indebted to them.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 novembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[Chignon]

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
What would motivate him to remain with the mages?

Why not Hawke's friendship and support?

*assuming Hawke supports mage freedom*

I said something to that effect, too. We'll see how it goes in future DLCs or DA3.

[Chignon]

Xilizhra wrote ...

Actually... Fenris had something close. I'm not actually certain how seeing your surrogate mother be blown up by a distant compatriot and seeing your sister turn out to be a mage who sold you out to your former master directly compare, but they're both certainly of great magnitude. But Fenris was willing to go along with not killing Varania. Of course, Varania actually meant something to Fenris, so perhaps that's why...

What happened to Fenris is not comparable, in my opnion. He wanted to seek Varenia out and confront her. Killing Varenia was the choice he wanted to make and Hawke stopped him.

Xilizhra wrote ...

Theoretically possible, but I hope to help him move beyond that. Death is just... so final that I'm hesitant to deal it to anyone not trying to kill me. In fact, I think the only person I've ever killed who hasn't been in self-defense is Kelder, and he begged me to do it.

I don't think there's much you can do to help Anders and he was quite quick to deal out death himself, but I guess it boils down to a matter of preference.

[Xilizhra]

What happened to Fenris is not comparable, in my opnion. He wanted to seek Varenia out and confront her. Killing Varenia was the choice he wanted to make and Hawke stopped him.

So what would be the contrasting scenario with Sebastian?

I don't think there's much you can do to help Anders and he was quite quick to deal out death himself, but I guess it boils down to a matter of preference.

Well, that goes back to what I mentioned above...

I said something to that effect, too. We'll see how it goes in future DLCs or DA3.

Could Starkhaven be tied to the revolution, with Hawke and company helping Sebastian take back Starkhaven to have Sebastian help them in turn?

[Chignon]

Xilizhra wrote ...

So what would be the contrasting scenario with Sebastian?

Imagine All That Remains with Hawke not as the leader but as a follower, then letting Quentin go and Hawke being dismissed with a "Don't interfere, Hawke."

Xilizhra wrote ...

Could Starkhaven be tied to the revolution, with Hawke and company helping Sebastian take back Starkhaven to have Sebastian help them in turn?

Starkhaven is one of the biggest cities in the Free Marches. I can't believe it wouldn't be important.

Modifié par Chignon, 01 novembre 2011 - 01:06 .

[Ellyria]

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
What would motivate him to remain with the mages?

Why not Hawke's friendship and support?

*assuming Hawke supports mage freedom*

I think Hawke may support mage freedom, but I don't think she's at the frontlines, spearheading the revolution (Cassandra is looking for Hawke to help stop the Mage/Templar war, after all).

IMO, I don't think Hawke is an active participant in the Mage/Templar war, so Sebastian won't be either. And if he's not Hawke's LI and eventually leaves (like everyone else), I think he'd stay out of the war and go back to Starkhaven.

[Xilizhra]

Imagine All That Remains with Hawke not as the leader but as a follower, then letting Quentin go and Hawke being dismissed with a "Don't interfere, Hawke."

Doesn't Hawke only say that after Sebastian threatens to destroy the whole city? That itself might be a sign that he really can't be reasoned with.

Starkhaven is one of the biggest cities in the Free Marches. I can't believe it wouldn't be important.

Reasonable... perhaps I'll need to wait for Starkhaven DLC to decide. It may be metagaming, but I do want to create the best overall experience.

[Chignon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Doesn't Hawke only say that after Sebastian threatens to destroy the whole city? That itself might be a sign that he really can't be reasoned with.

I really doubt that. Read the analysis I posted earlier. The author mentioned this very scene, listing many points I agree with. Sebastian said that in the heat of the moment, very obviously not thinking straight. It doesn't seem very in-character for him to do that once he has time to think and recover from what happened.

Xilizhra wrote...

Reasonable... perhaps I'll need to wait for Starkhaven DLC to decide. It may be metagaming, but I do want to create the best overall experience.

Understandable. Let's hope we'll get this Starkhaven DLC to tie up all of the loose ends.

Modifié par Chignon, 01 novembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[Xilizhra]

I really doubt that. Read the analysis I posted earlier. The author mentioned this very scene, listing many points I agree with. Sebastian said that in the heat of the moment, very obviously not thinking straight. It doesn't seem very in-character for him to do that once he has time to think and recover from what happened.

Oh, I know his odds of actually following through are slim. But I very much doubt he'd listen to reason in the heat of the moment.