228 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

Yup, Smud had zero patience when others took a tone.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 20 mars 2011 - 02:34 .

[Whatever42]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

For the 'Too Long; Didn't Watch' group that doesn't feel inclined to download probably spyware to read his text file, anyone care to give some summaries of the ideas he presents?


Okeer having Quarian slaves actually sounds interesting, and an improvement giving how little slavery we actually saw or encountered in the Terminus, which was always a big place of slavery by the narrative. The only slavery we do see is by the Asari.

He covers far too much to give a TL;DR. Basically, its a large number of suggestions to "fix" ME2. However, its not really a disucussion of fixes, it's more of a reimagining of ME2 that he thinks is better. He creates a new plot, new characters, new subplots, and new game mechanics, such as training and seeker infections and tagging salvage.
 
It's pretty wide ranging and would result in a significantly different game than we have in either ME1 or ME2. Some people obviously like it. I obviously don't.  Not that there aren't some good and imaginative ideas in there, I'm just not sure the gameplay ideas are viable and I dislike many of the character and plot changes.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 20 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

It was less about disagreement, and more about how he had a hair trigger for people who took a snipey tone with him, or who couldn't understand what he was saying and kept mis-representing it after three tries.

Not always the easiest guy to argue with, since he had a short temper, but very possible, and well worth it compared to many.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'd have to agree with you on that, Dean. I was often under the impression that Smud viewed things on a level most, if at all, of us hardly consider when discussing the plot and characters. It's kind of hard to explain, but I thought was the reason behind him not being an appreciated presence: many people simply don't get what he's saying, and he's not the best at putting up with someone like that. It was always a lose-lose situation.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 20 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[AntiChri5]

The problem was always the tone he set himself.
Yes, people always got agressive and condescending, but that is because that was how he started things.

[Dean_the_Young]

You could hardly argue with that.

On the other hand, Smud was a guy who got more pleasant to talk to the more you engaged him. Unlike most people, who start seemingly pleasant and then escalate, he started high, but was much easier to work down.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I like Smud's take on things, It's kind of like Alpha Protocol in space (I've always liked the collection of dossiers in that game) - Smud's problem is that what he suggests Sounds incredibly complex while it really isn't ..his idea is from an time when games where about more than blowing stuff up every 5 min, That will confuse many people though.

[merrick97]

Pwener2313 wrote...

^It should.

No it shouldnt because PS3 players wont get to play ME1.

[CroGamer002]

merrick97 wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

^It should.

No it shouldnt because PS3 players wont get to play ME1.

They do have that comic for main choices in ME1.

[merrick97]

Mesina2 wrote...

merrick97 wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

^It should.

No it shouldnt because PS3 players wont get to play ME1.

They do have that comic for main choices in ME1.

I take it you havent even watched the interactive comic.

The comic doesnt even begin to cover the depth from playing through ME1 and all of the little choices you make in ME1 that are imported into ME2.  And some of those specific choices in ME1 are referred to in the videos (ala Tali's pilgrimage, Garrus paragon/renegade, missions against Cerberus) are not EVEN touched in the interactive comic.  That reason is my main criticism in that his suggestions would heavily penalize pleyers who never played ME1. His game would make playing ME1 a requirement seemingly and that is something (sadly) that you just cant do.  From a game design or marketing standpoint.

[merrick97]

double post

Modifié par merrick97, 20 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[glacier1701]

Having been involved in helping with the ideas presented in the vids I will say that I dont necessarily agree with the level of change presented in them. While I do feel ME2 really had a weak overall plot with many flaws it does not need the level of change advocated within the videos to make it a much stronger game. However I must say that since we CAN come up with alternate versions that dont have the same level of inconsistency and flaws that ME2 has shows that the standards that BW finds acceptable for their stories is degrading (DA2 shows the new path that was started with ME2 is being continued on and its not, in my opinion, a path that really bodes well for good storytelling in future BW products that EA has say in).

[CroGamer002]

merrick97 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

merrick97 wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

^It should.

No it shouldnt because PS3 players wont get to play ME1.

They do have that comic for main choices in ME1.

I take it you havent even watched the interactive comic.

The comic doesnt even begin to cover the depth from playing through ME1 and all of the little choices you make in ME1 that are imported into ME2.  And some of those specific choices in ME1 are referred to in the videos (ala Tali's pilgrimage, Garrus paragon/renegade, missions against Cerberus) are not EVEN touched in the interactive comic.  That reason is my main criticism in that his suggestions would heavily penalize pleyers who never played ME1. His game would make playing ME1 a requirement seemingly and that is something (sadly) that you just cant do.  From a game design or marketing standpoint.

Yes I did watch it and it a big mess but what I mean was they do have main choices to choose so they're not penalizes in ME2 too much.

But for smudboy idea that every minor character in Mass Effect 1 and 2 have purpose throughout his version the Mass Effect 2( not fixed ME2) is just not realistic in the first place.

[spacehamsterZH]

TelexFerra wrote...

RedLetterMedia/Plinkett

Right, that's the name I was looking for.

I think Smudboy just takes himself too seriously. He's clearly an intelligent and well-spoken guy when he wants to be, and some of his criticisms of the ME2 plot are perfectly justified and well-supported. But the way he seems to be trying to build some kind of internet persona around this, coming back to it again and again, just reeks of internet attention **** syndrome all over. And it's entirely derivative, too - he's attacking something extremely popular because that always gets you more attention, but it's not really an accomplishment in and of itself. And the way he does it is a direct swipe from someone who is more accomplished and, frankly, does it significantly better than him.

And the way he jumps down the throat of anyone who criticizes him just underlines how obviously he's doing all this for attention - he's looking for a fight, and picking one at every opportunity he sees. And, well, here we are talking about him on a forum that he doesn't even post on anymore, so I guess it's working. Sigh. Internet.

[Mr Zoat]

He makes some good points, but most of those aren't fixes. They would create a completely different game. Why should the back story of each character relate the the main plot?

[Randy1012]

Why shouldn't they? Characters exist to serve the plot. If they don't have any connection to what's going on, they don't need to be there.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

WHO IS SMUDBOY?

[Iakus]

After watching these movies, I gotta say, I doubt it would have been possible to shoehorn all this into ME 2. I question some of the gameplay changes as necessary. But then gameplay isn't exactly my "thing"

The character/story changes are another thing, however. To have the squad actually working together to prepare for the mission, upgrade the Normandy (instead of saying "here's some plans, now mine and build it yourself"), to have personality clashes. Heck having them acknowledge that they're there to fight the Collectors, and not just hang out on the Normandy until Shep solves their personal problems...If half, nay a quarter of that stuff could have been implemented, wow! That would have been a game worthy of Bioware.

Also, Loved, loved, loved, the alternate intro.  Makes much more sense than the Cure for Death

Modifié par iakus, 20 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[Whatever42]

Randy1083 wrote...

Why shouldn't they? Characters exist to serve the plot. If they don't have any connection to what's going on, they don't need to be there.

What was Han Solo's relation to the main plot?
What was Legolos's or Gimli's relation to the main plot?
What was the crew of B5's relation to the main plot?

Some characters do, of course, like Aragorn and Obiwan and Sinclair/Sheridan. However, most characters in these series are just drafted into it out of loyalty to the main character.

[Randy1012]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

What was Han Solo's relation to the main plot?

Without Han, Luke and Obi-Wan don't get off of Tatooine when they do and might have gotten captured. Or they wouldn't have reached Alderaan as fast as they did (since the Millennium Falcon's faster than most other ships) and the Death Star might have been gone by the time they got there, making it impossible for them to rescue Leia and figure out where to find the hidden Rebel base so they could deliver the Death Star plans.

The other ones aren't as obvious, but Han had a very clear and obvious role in the story.

[Whatever42]

Randy1083 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

What was Han Solo's relation to the main plot?

Without Han, Luke and Obi-Wan don't get off of Tatooine when they do and might have gotten captured. Or they wouldn't have reached Alderaan as fast as they did (since the Millennium Falcon's faster than most other ships) and the Death Star might have been gone by the time they got there, making it impossible for them to rescue Leia and figure out where to find the hidden Rebel base so they could deliver the Death Star plans.

The other ones aren't as obvious, but Han had a very clear and obvious role in the story.

Oh sure, but characters in ME2 had a tie the plot too. Without the Mordin, no seeker cure. Garrus provided weapons. Tali provided armor. One of them led the 2nd fire team. One of them was necessary to shield against the swarm in the SM. And they all participated on missions to fight the bad guys.

Don't get me wrong. I know the ME2 story can be improved and I want deeper interactions with the team. However, things like Okeer just happening to have scanned the IFF? For a race as secretive and as advanced as the collectors, you think they would have been careful to hide that. Its their biggest defense, after all. That's a plot hole. I'm rather shocked at Smudboy, actually.

[Lumenadducere]

One of my favorite lines in ME2 (not counting LotSB here) is the Paragon response to Al-Jilani's interview if you save the Council. Shep recites the names of all the Alliance ships lost in the battle in order to save the Destiny Ascension and says something long the lines of "and yes, I remember them all." That, to me, is quite powerful and telling, and does so much to flesh out the character. It (combined with the "feelings" dialogue in LotSB) is also more of what I'd like to see in ME3. And Ascension, if possible, but I think Ascension will have bigger fish to fry.

Part of the problem here is the Shep isn't just the player, nor is he or she a completely fleshed-out character written by BioWare. Instead it's a combination of the two, and thus provides for some unique challenges in writing. Provide too many moments like those mentioned above, and you risk the player feeling detached from the character they're supposed to be playing. Don't provide enough, and the character seems hollow because the player does not have as much option when it comes to controlling Shep's customization as they do in more traditional Western RPGs.

This is just armchair development on my part, but I think adding more of those moments to the dialog but leaving them as options for the player are the best way to try and merge these two. Perhaps tying them in to the Persuade choices? That way those who want their Shep to be more action-oriented can pick the alternate dialog routes while those that want more exposition on feelings can pick another. It would also help avoid risking your Shep saying something that you don't think that they should.

[Il Divo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You could hardly argue with that.

On the other hand, Smud was a guy who got more pleasant to talk to the more you engaged him. Unlike most people, who start seemingly pleasant and then escalate, he started high, but was much easier to work down.

Another thing is that alot of users assumed that Smudboy was just another "Mass Effect 2 hater'. In reality, he had very...specific criticisms regarding the game, such as keeping it very narrow (the plot). I daresay that Smud even hinted that he liked Mass Effect 2 as a whole, he simply thought there was no plot, which alot of critics took over the edge.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Il Divo wrote...

(...)

Another thing is that alot of users assumed that Smudboy was just another "Mass Effect 2 hater'. In reality, he had very...specific criticisms regarding the game, such as keeping it very narrow (the plot). I daresay that Smud even hinted that he liked Mass Effect 2 as a whole, he simply thought there was no plot, which alot of critics took over the edge.

Smud obviously loves the series as a whole and does appear to have liked ME2 to an extent. The very fact that he's devoted a significant portion of his time to make these videos shows as much, regardless of the negativity. As you and a few others have remarked, he just tends to be misunderstood a lot.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 20 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

What was Han Solo's relation to the main plot?

Without Han, Luke and Obi-Wan don't get off of Tatooine when they do and might have gotten captured. Or they wouldn't have reached Alderaan as fast as they did (since the Millennium Falcon's faster than most other ships) and the Death Star might have been gone by the time they got there, making it impossible for them to rescue Leia and figure out where to find the hidden Rebel base so they could deliver the Death Star plans.

The other ones aren't as obvious, but Han had a very clear and obvious role in the story.

Oh sure, but characters in ME2 had a tie the plot too. Without the Mordin, no seeker cure. Garrus provided weapons. Tali provided armor. One of them led the 2nd fire team. One of them was necessary to shield against the swarm in the SM. And they all participated on missions to fight the bad guys.

Don't get me wrong. I know the ME2 story can be improved and I want deeper interactions with the team. However, things like Okeer just happening to have scanned the IFF? For a race as secretive and as advanced as the collectors, you think they would have been careful to hide that. Its their biggest defense, after all. That's a plot hole. I'm rather shocked at Smudboy, actually.

The qualm is BioWare's perpetual need to shove the notion ME2 is a character driven story down are throat, when in reality they have virtually nothing to do with the plot. Garrus may provide a weapon augmentation however his role is essentially mindlessly calibrating the guns until called upon. He is not required to finish the plot and has no immediate impact on it. His role in combat is irrelevant.

Incorrect, a plot hole stems from an inconsistency in the narrative. Smudboy offers explanation, citing that after numerous dealings with the Collectors. He and his Quarian slaves scan their ship and discover an "IF-like" device. Shepard may subsequently ask Okeer to build the IFF. Everything slots together efficiently.