43 réponses à ce sujet

[Gage123]

Do you guys think increasing the damage of your mage's spells by 100% make them up to par against warriors or rogues or will they still be crappy damage dealers outside of CCC? 

[Bathead]

No. I think the mages do just fine in this game.

[Auru]

you don't need to do the most damage to be effective in this game, mages are fine

[Atmosfear3]

My Winter's Grasp was hitting upwards of 800 on my mage playthrough on Hard. Firestorm was also doing 280+ damage each time one of the fireballs landed on an enemy with its splash damage. Cone of Cold was also doing around 500 damage to all targets hit. My staggered Chain Lightning hit some mook for 4500.

I think mages are fine.

[szsleepy]

Compare that to the 10k+ Assasinate from a DW rogue. Yes, mage damage is terrible.

[Gage123]

10k wtf seriously? oO
Uuh,,,ok...that is nuts...
What numbers do mages do close to that?

[Dave of Canada]

So because rogues are overpowered, mages are terrible?

[Hoopz]

Mage's real dps comes from aoe and ccc.

[Loc'n'lol]

You could make a case for fireball, but other spells ? No, not really.
They could use more CCC options, and more reliable ways to apply brittle.

[themaxzero]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

You could make a case for fireball, but other spells ? No, not really.
They could use more CCC options, and more reliable ways to apply brittle.

The problems with Mages are:

1) Their auto attack is much poorer then Rogues/Warriors so they rely a lot more on their activated abilities.

2) Their CCC contribution is much harder to apply then Rogue's Disorientate or Warrior's Stagger.

3) They tend to be have the poorest damage mitigation. Warriors have HP and armour, Rogues with Defense and the best threat management tools.

Modifié par themaxzero, 19 mars 2011 - 08:20 .

[Medet]

Well yes, my rogues basic attack does more damage than my mages spells, barring cross class combos.

Where the mage shines is AOE crowd control. Force mage gravitic ring is basically a 20 second full lockdown at its center, duration not reduced by enemy rank or difficulty. Combine that with the mages other cc (wg, cone, horror, sleep, shackling hex, petrify etc.) and you have complete battlefield control.

Your damage will never come close to matching a rogues, but a rogue can't lockdown enemies like that. Although they can make them all dead in 1.5 seconds so :/

[themaxzero]

Medet wrote...

Well yes, my rogues basic attack does more damage than my mages spells, barring cross class combos.

Where the mage shines is AOE crowd control. Force mage gravitic ring is basically a 20 second full lockdown at its center, duration not reduced by enemy rank or difficulty. Combine that with the mages other cc (wg, cone, horror, sleep, shackling hex, petrify etc.) and you have complete battlefield control.

Your damage will never come close to matching a rogues, but a rogue can't lockdown enemies like that. Although they can make them all dead in 1.5 seconds so :/

They do have good CC (well Hawke Mage does anyway) but outside of Hawke a Mage's CC isn't that amazing.

[SuicidalBaby]

any spell that includes any controll mechanic is going to do less damage. you trade one for the other. talk about spells that only do damage if you care to acknowledge the flaw.

[themaxzero]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

any spell that includes any controll mechanic is going to do less damage. you trade one for the other. talk about spells that only do damage if you care to acknowledge the flaw.

Death is the best CC.

[Medet]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

any spell that includes any controll mechanic is going to do less damage. you trade one for the other. talk about spells that only do damage if you care to acknowledge the flaw.

My end game rogues basic bow attack does more single target damage than any spell in any tree for a mage. Thats a bit saddening.

But yeah thats why I use mage hawke for complete control, not killing.

[VettoRyouzou]

O.o why would anyone think mages are weak? I take it to town with my mage, my poor Two handed warrior feels gimped if anything.

[Atmosfear3]

szsleepy wrote...

Compare that to the 10k+ Assasinate from a DW rogue. Yes, mage damage is terrible.

Gratz, you did 10k damage to a single target and now your ability is on cooldown.

You seem to have the misconception that each classes are suppose to be a standalone one-man army. You sir, have a poor understanding of the fundamentals of this game.

themaxzero wrote...

The problems with Mages are:

1) Their auto attack is much poorer then Rogues/Warriors so they rely a lot more on their activated abilities.

2) Their CCC contribution is much harder to apply then Rogue's Disorientate or Warrior's Stagger.

3) They tend to be have the poorest damage mitigation. Warriors have HP and armour, Rogues with Defense and the best threat management tools.

- Mage auto attacks apply "stagger" effects like freezing enemies, setting them on fire (makes them dance around), or lowering resistances (spirit attacks).

- Brittle is harder to apply because it is the only status effect that applies a massive damage-taken debuff to enemies. Stagger only lowers defense and attack and disorient only lowers defenses. Brittle applies a +50% critical damage taken to enemies which can make for very huge crits if you CCC.

- You are not using the word mitigation properly. Warriors have mitigation. Rogues have avoidance. Mages have a little bit of both if you spec for it. Yes, they do not have passive, stat-based mitigation or avoidance except to magic resistance (which magic stat grants). However, mages have barrier, heal, mind blast, pull of the abyss, cone of cold, petrify, arcane shield, horror, glyph of paralysis/repulsion, gravitic ring, and hemorrhage to peel enemies off.

[Gage123]

I take it by giving mages 100% damage, it would make them over the top or will their damage be equal or more than a rogue's or warriors?

I also keep hearing about warriors doing 5k mighty blows or rogues doing 300-500 damage on auto attacks. Are those just exaggeration or are they actually easily achieveable?

Modifié par Gage123, 19 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[CitizenSnips]

It certainly didn't hurt warriors.

[7he0ch0]

Mages are by no means underpowered, for anybody who has seen my thread on the spirit/entropy/force build you would understand that mages can be up to par with rogues and warriors the thing is they cant solo they need set up combos in order to do massive amounts of damage. I was able to do a total of 30k aoe damage with my build by using walking bomb, gravatic ring and pull of the abyss the only spells my mage used the other numbers came from a well placed archers lance and miasmic bomb from varric

[mojojojo37]

I don't think giving mages a percentage damage increase is the answer. They just need some adjustments on their spells like investing in the extra point in fireball gives it a knockdown chance or Winter's Grasp extra point lets it have a small aoe effect (1 or 2meters) and could potentially brittle 2 or 3 enemies.

IMO for most rpg style games and in terms of single target dps, levels 1 thru 8 the mage needs to deal the most damage simply because if you spend points in defensive spells at the beginning you can't do enough damage to survive, but after level 8 rogues should be the top class in single target damage. For myself DA2 does this pretty well in balancing Rogue vs Mage.
Now Mage vs Warrior in terms of damage does favor the warrior especially at end game. but I still agree with lots of ppl that the mage puts out some decent damage especially if you setup your attacks. I think what everyone is debating is a Should question, mainly that if you go full dps Warrior and full dps Mage who Should do more damage? and that answer is going to be different for every person. I like playing the mage and thats my bias. So my pick is for the dps mage to beat a dps warrior since a warrior has better defensive stats without picking any defensive talents versus a mage who doesn't pick any defensive spells.

[mojojojo37]

oops sorry i mean the percent damage increase Isn't the answer

[themaxzero]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

Compare that to the 10k+ Assasinate from a DW rogue. Yes, mage damage is terrible.

Gratz, you did 10k damage to a single target and now your ability is on cooldown.

You seem to have the misconception that each classes are suppose to be a standalone one-man army. You sir, have a poor understanding of the fundamentals of this game.

themaxzero wrote...

The problems with Mages are:

1) Their auto attack is much poorer then Rogues/Warriors so they rely a lot more on their activated abilities.

2) Their CCC contribution is much harder to apply then Rogue's Disorientate or Warrior's Stagger.

3) They tend to be have the poorest damage mitigation. Warriors have HP and armour, Rogues with Defense and the best threat management tools.

- Mage auto attacks apply "stagger" effects like freezing enemies, setting them on fire (makes them dance around), or lowering resistances (spirit attacks).

- Brittle is harder to apply because it is the only status effect that applies a massive damage-taken debuff to enemies. Stagger only lowers defense and attack and disorient only lowers defenses. Brittle applies a +50% critical damage taken to enemies which can make for very huge crits if you CCC.

- You are not using the word mitigation properly. Warriors have mitigation. Rogues have avoidance. Mages have a little bit of both if you spec for it. Yes, they do not have passive, stat-based mitigation or avoidance except to magic resistance (which magic stat grants). However, mages have barrier, heal, mind blast, pull of the abyss, cone of cold, petrify, arcane shield, horror, glyph of paralysis/repulsion, gravitic ring, and hemorrhage to peel enemies off.

Spirit attacks don't lower resists they ignore 50% of damage resistance and Spirit resistance. Give me autocritting Predators or multi targetting Warriors (that can Stagger) any day of the week.

Brittle does have a bonus but it is still not a patch on Stagger or Disorientate. You can Stagger someone almost constantly with a 2 hand warrior. A Sabotage Rogue has double Disorientate AoEs plus Disorientates on crits when Obscured.

Mitigation is mitigation. Heal is balls give me Stealth, Evade, Inconspicuious and Decoy any day of the week. 

Merrill Blood Mage is great. Force Mage Hawk is great. The rest are meh.

Modifié par themaxzero, 19 mars 2011 - 09:57 .

[Rieverre]

Yes, but they do lack something the other two classes have. Exploiting a mechanic of their own to cause dps spikes. Warriors just hit Cleave, upgraded or not. Rogues inflict and exploit stuns like nobody's business and get Unforgiving Chain + Explosive Strike. Meanwhile, mages may inflict, and they're _good_ inflicts, but they really have no standalone exploits of their own. And they can do this without having to rely on specializations. The mages can't. Or at least not to such a devastating effect, and not as consistently.

I don't know about Warriors, but the 5k mighty blow is close to what Fenris manages CCCing on a Brittle. Rogues, though? Varric consistently hits 400 damage autoattacks. Though this is with a +damage rune and the 120% damage for flanking passive. Him and my mage Hawke are the party's elite killers. Winter's Grasp + Archer's Lance (out of stealth to make sure it crits) for something in the range of 17k damage.

[Rehwyn]

Gage123 wrote...
I also keep hearing about warriors doing 5k mighty blows or rogues doing 300-500 damage on auto attacks. Are those just exaggeration or are they actually easily achieveable?

Can't speak for warriors (mine's only level 13), but it's not an exaggeration for rogues (example video). Shades actually seem to be weak to nature damage (hence the 700-900 damage crits), but my off-hand physical crits are still in the 300-500 range.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 19 mars 2011 - 10:01 .