24 réponses à ce sujet

[NationalWreck]

Yeah, you heard it. So what if they can one shot normal enemies with abilities and finish most others in 3-4 hits. I don't care. Melee rogue is not viable for playing boss fights on hard or nightmare. It's just terrible. Warriors are better than rogues in every way because strength and constitution are simply better stats than dex and cunning. No fortitude = not worth it. being anywhere close to the boss you will be showered with knockbacks, stuns, and AOE damage which is simply not tankable. It doesn't pay to hav e a ton of DPS if you can't even stand up to attack. It's not a matter of generating threat its just a matter of being able to do ANYTHING against the major bosses.

You do just as much by going archer and sitting back out of the fight.

Oh and not to get even if you're going to try it Assassin is the only specialization worth having. Stealth and tactical abilities? i pity you if you put points into those which are absolutely worthless.

Modifié par NationalWreck, 19 mars 2011 - 10:13 .

[naughty99]

Ultimately for me it's more about what is most fun to play, rather than which build has better math.

Even if an exclusively archer build made more sense from a DPS perspective, I simply enjoy DW rogue actions, and you can only get these insanely high 2x Assassinate numbers on bosses when you use daggers

I started out DW but later after I found a really good bow, I realized how helpful it is to put some points into Archery as well, so I'm usually starting combat picking off a Lieutenant with ranged Assassinate, taking care of some archers and then as soon as one of my mages Petrifies a boss and debuffs him, I jump in for upgraded Assassinate with daggers. 

I've gotten as high as 17k total from both daggers, but as you can see in this photo some people are doing as much as 89k + 51k for the offhand hand dagger vs Orsino.

You can petrify most bosses, but sometimes you have to do it several times before they become BRITTLE. It definitely helps if you have 2 mages with the all the CCC upgrades in the Primal school.

Obviously ranged attacks from Archery are also enormously helpful, so I put points into Archery as well. Really disappointed that Disorienting Shot seems bugged and does not result in any DISORIENTS.

Modifié par naughty99, 21 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[Dirhyn]

DW rogues have the best burst in the game, even better than a 2h warrior. I have no problem with knockbacks on bosses, and on act 2 yo ucan buy a ring that will make you imune to it. I went shadow 1rst for added survivability with decoy ( and it's a must on NM without a healer. Lieut. can taunt faster than my aveline can taunt back, which means the decoy taunt saves me alot. Decoy is one of the best skill in the game. Period.
Btw my party has no mage, so I dont have brittle assassinate, but I still have insane burst with stagger combo. ( and some nice sustainable dps with lacerate stagger).
Aveline, varric, DW Hawk and Fenris.

[Brad Rampley]

Intresting argument Wreck, but mine to counter yours wud take a whole lot of time and i have no evidenece to prove it but i will say this,Against bosses dw for me didnt work well and i play on nightmare who cares if its playable on anything else then it doesnt matter.

[Rehwyn]

Perhaps you need to learn how to watch the boss and dodge their knockback abilities. Or invest in these items:

Ring of No Wishes
Etched Ring of the Twins
Carta's Left Hand

Stealth isn't particularly useful outside of dropping threat, but some other abilities are pretty handy. Obscure is a 50% miss chance buff, which can prevent a lot of damage to your party, for example.

Archery is definitely easier because I can just stand back and pewpew, but with good play I do fine as a DW rogue (and generally more damage). Unless Fenris is nearby, one-shotting my party on Nightmare.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 19 mars 2011 - 11:48 .

[Brad Rampley]

dodging the attacks? im talking about the rock wraith u cant dodge his ranged electric attack and even if u put 50 points in constitution u wud still die quickly because of no armor like a warrior u can run to a pillar but by the time u do u take 2 or 3 shots from him and thats well over half a health bar. But im not saying having dw rogues suck, im saying i found better more effeicent ways for me to beat the boss which in theory is what works and if it works, it works.

[Brad Rampley]

O and those items are found late in the game how well did the dw rogue go for u in the early to mid game? It doesnt look to go.

[Rehwyn]

There were times when it was definitely difficult early game, but then... it's Nightmare and I was less skilled at the game at that time. And yeah, those items are late-game, but still useful. My comment on Obscure wasn't specifically about Ancient Rock Wraith either, but I've seen the final boss miss with AoE knockbacks because of it.

I've been planning to go back and make a new rogue because my first missed one or two things and was considering making a guide as I went along.

As for the Ancient Rock Wraith specifically, I'm not entirely sure which ability you're talking about. The AoE one that sucks you in? It's been a while since I fought that boss on my rogue so might forget some specific things I dealt with then. On my warrior a day or two ago, I don't remember a ranged lightning attack being problematic...

Modifié par Rehwyn, 20 mars 2011 - 12:10 .

[Brad Rampley]

yes if the rock wraiths man target was at melee ranger he wud swoop and do massive damage, if the target was a range he wud hurl lightning bolts at u. u can llok in the nightmare guide to the rock wraith that is popular here in the forums and when i tried to run from the bolts it was just a massacre for isabella i even tried using a makers sign to turn all of her attributes to const and it still didnt work for her to just be able to run. Thats bad for a rogue she became so useless i had to do that. I had to restart and bring a extra range bc she was useless at that point and im not saying dw is useless its just less useful against that boss and maybe the high dragon and pride demon.

[NationalWreck]

Rehwyn wrote...

Perhaps you need to learn how to watch the boss and dodge their knockback abilities. Or invest in these items:

Ring of No Wishes
Etched Ring of the Twins
Carta's Left Hand

Stealth isn't particularly useful outside of dropping threat, but some other abilities are pretty handy. Obscure is a 50% miss chance buff, which can prevent a lot of damage to your party, for example.

Archery is definitely easier because I can just stand back and pewpew, but with good play I do fine as a DW rogue (and generally more damage). Unless Fenris is nearby, one-shotting my party on Nightmare.

obscure doesnt affect ability damage and all autoattacks are tanked by warrior anyway in the right situation. if they arent youve done something wrong.

Modifié par NationalWreck, 20 mars 2011 - 12:32 .

[Rehwyn]

Rogues can get two different AoE Obscure abilities that work on party members. Including that warrior tank you just mentioned, or your squishy mages that a group of enemies just spawned all around.

Anyways, regarding "rogues not viable in boss fights on hard or nightmare", here's a vid I made a few days ago fighting the final boss on Hard (beware spoilers, obviously).



I went back and watched it. I got knocked down a grand total of one time during the entire course of the fight.

[lazuli]

Shadow, I will agree, is underwhelming. I took it for the slight critical damage increase. But I wouldn't be so quick to write off the Duelist. Vendetta is amazing... when it doesn't glitch out. I conquered the Arishok on my first attempt due in large part to Vendetta. (Nightmare, no duel).

Against larger bosses like the High Dragon, the Ancient Rock Wraith, and those elven constructs, DW Rogues do lose their luster, though.

[Rehwyn]

Inconspicuous is quite useful on Nightmare. If you upgrade it, it's not just a complete threat wipe, but also makes it so you build absolutely no threat for 20 seconds. This is obviously nice on bosses, but it is useful on normal groups of enemies as well. If you tank has used a single damaging ability on a whole group of enemies, you can safely tear through a lot of them with no risk of pulling aggro while Inconspicuous is up.

If you've taken Chameleon's Breath or upgraded Fatiguing Fog, Disorienting Criticals is also nice for some bonus damage and Disorient.

Before you have really high base crit, Predator is also quite nice.

[Cyocide]

There is some leather armor available early on, I still carry it around for emergencies (check the shops you might have sold it), but it has a bunch of electric resistance. Good to know I'm still gonna need it.

Also, it doesn't hurt to have Anders upgraded with a group-level Arcane Shield.

Modifié par Cyocide, 20 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[Rehwyn]

Cyocide wrote...

Also, it doesn't hurt to have Anders upgraded with a group-level Arcane Shield.

Unfortunately, the party part of that buff is only 5%. I had the same idea when I saw it at first, but was informed differently in another thread.

[lazuli]

Rehwyn wrote...

Cyocide wrote...

Also, it doesn't hurt to have Anders upgraded with a group-level Arcane Shield.

Unfortunately, the party part of that buff is only 5%. I had the same idea when I saw it at first, but was informed differently in another thread.

Well that's wretched.  Thank goodness for respecs.

[TeamLexana]

The DW rogue is alot harder to play imo unless you cheat and force level that bad boy up, lol. Then you finally have decent dps with assassin and can drop aggro in a heartbeat with some of the shadow abilities like decoy and inconspicous. It also like a breath of fresh air when it gets even better in act three when freaking finally get access to good equips, good runes, and fel poison - leach health from enemy to the poisoner, lolz.

But boss fights are still difficult against things like the high dragon on the 360 at least because of targeting issues with trying to use the single target dps abilities on the dragon. For some reason, the dragon and other large bosses become very hard to target and leaves the rogue very open to get alpha'd while you're desperately trying to fire off assasinate.

[naughty99]

With one blow I knocked out 80% of the health of the mature dragon in Sundermount Act 2 with a daggers Assassinate after he was made BRITTLE by one of my mages on Nightmare.

@Brad, every Hawke Rogue can use bows, regardless of whether you put any points into Archery at all, and there are many situations where it's smartest to use ranged attacks.

With bigger bosses (excluding Rock Wraith), I've found that they become BRITTLE roughly once out every 2 or 3 times you Petrify them. So I try to always have both Anders and Merril in my party with upgraded Primal school CCC spells and Galvanism.

Modifié par naughty99, 20 mars 2011 - 06:24 .

[TeamLexana]

Ugh. That's horrrible. I miss spellpower. With high spellpower, damn near anything was vulnerable to shattering with a good hard hit. Either stonefist or a melee smack. Not bosses like the arch demon but you could still freeze them still with petrify for a few seconds - that's handy.

[Rehwyn]

By the way, I went back and made a video with my DW Rogue on the final boss on Nightmare. No deaths, but there were 3 really close calls. I did get knocked around quite a lot more than in my Hard video (but I blame this in me playing less skillfully during this particular run). I also forgot to apply Fell Poisons for the HP regen. ~_~



One ability that helps a lot is Bodyguard in Aveline's tree. Turns what would be deaths into near-misses.

Archery definitely is easier, but DW rogues are totally viable. More fun to play too, in my opinion.

[Brad Rampley]

@naughty99 I know that but the point is if ur not using dw then technically somethings wrong with that picture. Sure it makes situations easier but all it proves is that it cant be done with duelwieldinG which is my point. AND WHAT OF ISABELLA? she cant switch to ranged attacks which further lowers her usefulness. On nightmare difficulty bosses are too hard to play with when u can just chill in the back an rain down arrows. It hurts the games blance however the games classes are way more balanced than last year.

Modifié par Brad Rampley, 21 mars 2011 - 10:44 .

[naughty99]

In DAO, warriors and rogues could switch back and forth between ranged and melee weapons.

In DA2 this is what makes rogues special and what is most fun about playing a rogue IMO. They are the only class that can deal serious damage both ranged and melee and they have some cool attacks that are fun to use.

[BanditGR]

naughty99 wrote...

In DAO, warriors and rogues could switch back and forth between ranged and melee weapons.

In DA2 this is what makes rogues special and what is most fun about playing a rogue IMO. They are the only class that can deal serious damage both ranged and melee and they have some cool attacks that are fun to use.

To be fair in DAO, rogues could do a lot of things other than switch between ranged and melee weapons, for instance they could build physical resistance in order not to get tossed around, they could also put some points in Strength, in order to wield longshorts. With fortitude being restricted to Strength and only 3 stat points given per level, the system simply does not allow much flexibility (pretty much for all classes). This means that you are forced into daggers and if you really want to be dangerous as a single target DPSer, you will invest heavily into dexterity and cunning and you will require those rings in Acts 2 and 3. It is also true that on NM you will require micro, in some cases intense micro, if you are going against a boss with AoE attacks, in which case you are better off switching to bow. All in all, the rogue has his place in the game. He is far from being shafted but his role in certain cases may be somewhat diminished, in comparison to Origins.

Oh and don't bring up the Isabella example. She is a terrible choice for Nightmare (considering the alternatives) for a ton of obvious reasons that I won't bother going into.

Modifié par BanditGR, 21 mars 2011 - 12:25 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

I found dual-wielding rogues useful enough, they're just trickier to use because their proximity to the enemy requires a more hands-on approach.