25 réponses à ce sujet

[Kitaen]

Before I post this with hopes of a myriad of [Gamer] and [Official Dev (Writer)] responses, I would like to say that this game while like in all things has its good and bad points, I enjoyed DA2 very much and am still enjoying it.

Now, that being said, I would like this to be an intelligent discussion and one with little to no bashing or immature retorts. If you feel you must retort aggressively and with passion, please at least be clever about it.

Alright.
Now, this discussion is based on the NPC and Companions ability to recognize that a character is not only a mage but a Blood Mage.

Over playing not only DAO but DA2, I have noticed the incredible lack of notice taken by NPC's and Companion characters unable to recognizable / react to, whether intentionally as a game mechanic or just lack of content input in terms of the PC being a Mage of any kind especially the dreaded Blood Mage.

- Merrill is noticed as being a Blood Mage when they go to Sundermount. Obvious right? She uses it right in front of whomever you bring and Hawke 'calls her out' on it, and Hawke will either win or lose friendship points by your response to Merrills' retort.

- Anders is known to be a mage to a few in Kirkwall because he performs magical healing services for free in town and has a history with the Grew Wardens.

- Morrigan is also a mage, known of this by the Warden and by Alistair, and the crew from the first DA. She only mentions knowing that the Warden is a mage if she is asked about being taught how to shapeshift, otherwise it is never mentioned or reacted upon.

- Wynne is also a mage, Healer and widely respected personage from the Circle of Magi in Ferelden, and she knows that the Warden is a mage [if one took that OS (Origin Story)] as she remembers you when you meet her in Ostagar.

- Flemeth is known as a mage and hypothetically more due to her myth, backstory and continued existance. She never openly mentions knowing the Warden or Hawke is a mage in their first meeting or in consequential remeets, but it could be assumed she feels magic power from them and never openly mentions it; potentially due to her having cautionary tact.

Now, in these references, it 'could' be assumed that they know the PC is a mage and just never cares enough to mention or react to it. However, even with the range of personalities herein, if the PC ever displays using Blood Magic, it is NEVER reacted to, spoken upon or anything. Why is that?

Additionally, when fights in town or in Kirkwall / surrounding areas ensue, and the PC uses Blood Magic, again its never noticed, spoken upon, reacted to, or anything. In DA2, the few times Hawke is realized as a mage is when the PC choses the given option to spark some magic from their hand, which is rare and forced. People in the streets witnessing magic use by the PC, or companions witnessing its use, nothing.

One would think as zealous as the Templars are, that they would notice that right away, when you fight in their area with them standing about. The only one whom would come close to noticing ould be Knight-Captain Cullen, when he mentioned how he was curious about what methods Hawke used to verify if the young Templar was possessed by a demon or not. There was even an option at one point to say 'Hey! I'm a mage' in retort to something that Cullen said, however, I didn't take the bait on that and picked another response. Probably should have just to see what was said, but that just reinterates my point about how all these people couldn't possibly notice the PC is a mage.

Lastly, I know this is blatently obvious but...
Hawke... walking around with a robe and a stick on her back. Typical profile for a mage of any type since it seems that in this game they didn't make an 'Enchanted Staff Ring' that acts as wand for your hand so one doesn't have to carry a staff and be more suspect. (No, your own magic wouldn't hurt you, its attuned to your bio-rhythem)

Thoughts and input again from both the DA Community and DA Creators both Official and non are welcome.

[Eveangaline]

I remember during the game that, I think it was Cullen, said that the general population wasn't that fond of the templars. They probably wouldn't turn in a mage they saw unless they were attacking someone other than hired thugs.

And my personal belief is that if someone ever asks hawke about their staff, Hawke just points to the pointy end and says 'No no, it's a spear. Totally different'

[Thiefy]

i think some of the points you brought up were more about mechanics than story telling really, like the costume and stick.

[mesmerizedish]

I killed every templar who noticed that I had mages with me, so... *shrug*

[Dragoniter]

With all the hate and fear going around for blood magic, it is strange that noone cares or notices. And then there is the funny fact that you can turn into a blood mage on a whim, by choosing the specialisation.

That could mean that learning blood magic is just a willful act of a mage who just allows himself to tap that "unholy force" or that Hawke for example just happens to make a deal with a demon off-screen. If the latter is true, why can´t Hawke summon Demons to his aid ?

I´m inclined to believe that blood magic is basically evil because everyone believes it to be, and evil mages use blood magic because they think evil mages should use it.

In addition, blood magic is said to be very powerful, i have yet to notice this when i use blood magic, you accomplish far better results if you use primal/elemental magic.

I think it is a gaping plot hole to have noone respond to Hawke as a mage/blood mage.

[Kitaen]

I can understand the general populous being adverse to Templars, even fearful of them and their zealotry, but the fact that nobody on the street whom the PC either encounters, or witnesses reacts to magic being wielded by them.

I only brought up the outfit, because that is the MOST obvious profile of a mage. If at nothing else a Templar would stop them to inspect or mildly interrogate them under that pretense alone.

Storywise, as I said, there is no reaction to the PC using magic, or even the dreaded Blood Magic which should invoke some reaction from people particularly adverse to Blood Magic, like Alistair, Aveline, etc.

I'm trying to get a feel and potentially a reason from the devs as to why such a thing was never implemented be it storywise or game mechanics -wise. It would add another level of subtrefuge in just trying to matriculate the land, dressing inconspicuously, etc.

As badly as Blood Mages have been given a bad rap, one would assume their ilk would be feverently watched for and reported, if found, yet that never happens to the PC.

[Dr_Vile]

What I found stranger was the general tone of horror that Hawke used whenever someone mentioned Blood Magic or he encountered a Blood Mage, when 'Blood Magic' was the first specialisation I picked. My recollection might be slightly off, but I do think that there was some reaction to it in DA:O. I know it was mentioned in Awakening if you give Anders the blood mage specialisation.
It would have been nice to have some reaction to it - especially with Fenris (for example), since he's rabidly anti blood-magic - so I'm wondering if it was just something that was overlooked in the development stage.

[Maria Caliban]

Because they're not going to craft a large number of quests and reactions just for one class or specialization.

Do you want a realistic reaction to Hawke being a mage? Merideth sends a group of Templars against you and you kill them. Merideth sents Cullen against you and you kill them. In the middle of Act 2, Merideth herself shows up and kills you (if blood mage) or sticks you in the tower and it's game over.

[MasterSamson88]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Because they're not going to craft a large number of quests and reactions just for one class or specialization.

Do you want a realistic reaction to Hawke being a mage? Merideth sends a group of Templars against you and you kill them. Merideth sents Cullen against you and you kill them. In the middle of Act 2, Merideth herself shows up and kills you (if blood mage) or sticks you in the tower and it's game over.

Yeah I pretty much agree.

I'd rather they put time into making the main story, companions, and side quests than spend a bunch of time on a few random quests that will only occur based on specialization and class. 

[LobselVith8]

Carver mentions that the templars are looking for an apostate Hawke. As for why no one mentions when Hawke specifically uses blood magic or magic in general, maybe Hawke uses blood magic to "suggest" to the witnesses that they saw nothing? The old Jedi mind trick. "These aren't the mages you're looking for."

[Kitaen]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Because they're not going to craft a large number of quests and reactions just for one class or specialization.

Do you want a realistic reaction to Hawke being a mage? Merideth sends a group of Templars against you and you kill them. Merideth sents Cullen against you and you kill them. In the middle of Act 2, Merideth herself shows up and kills you (if blood mage) or sticks you in the tower and it's game over.

Awww.... come on now, Caliban san, I am sure you can come up with some more interesting things than that as consequences.

You (not you, you) seem to forget that 'Mages' and 'Blood Magic' are a very intrical part of DA's story and culture. If it werent for the Imperium and what they did, the Chantry wouldn't be the zealous army that it is. There would be no so-called mass fear of mages' power and their potential to become 'mind controlling of a grand cleric blah blah..' blood mages. The most basic fear installation that the templars use is between the haves and the have nots. Those with magical power and those without whom feel defenseless without the lyrium addicted as their guardians against mages.

Realistically, if one was to choose to be a Hawke mage, there would be ALOT more delicacy about how to handle things, as it would almost take either being very lucky, or tactically smart to survive without being detected by roaming fearful eyes or those sentry templars whom always watch.

Merideth has to find out s/he is a mage first, and then thats when many different things can occur. Perhaps you choose to do something and end up getting caught, and put in the Circle. Perhaps you don't choose that and end up a rogue magi whom becomes the 'Champion' as it is written, by way of other deeds while having to out-maneuver the templars and making a difference? Or mayhap Hawke could use the connection with Athenril and become an honourable smuggler like her, whom makes her riches and is feared throughout the Free Marches? So many possibilities to consider, and thats just a few.

Sure KC Merideth could send her people after you, but there is a potential for Hawke and her people to outlast them time and again; Flemeth and Morrigan certainly fared well in the Wilds. One could even go the route of siding with Justice and Anders and blowing up the Chantry, and attempting to get rid of an oppressive Chantry, which could be a potential reason why Seeker Cassi would even be after Hawke.

One also forgets the Chantry has no real law of how to deal with what can be proclaimed at anytime as an apostate mage. They can be killed on sight, with no consequences. Its not unlike having martial law across the country. In some countries if you are found with a weapon on your person its an instant execution. You steal, you lose a hand (can only do that one twice =P). You rape someone you lose your genetals. Pretty clear cut why the Chantry is feared as they truly have the ability to do what they will with mages, as we see with the indescriminate Tranquilizing of the ones in Kirkwall.

Oooh there is so much they could have done with this angle!!! 

Modifié par Kitaen, 20 mars 2011 - 10:57 .

[Taura-Tierno]

I remember somebody (maybe David Gaider?) saying that characters don't have huge reactions to Hawke using Blood Magic because they didn't want a specialisation that put lots of restrictions on the character and/or made it much more difficult to play the game. Or something like that.

[Kitaen]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

I remember somebody (maybe David Gaider?) saying that characters don't have huge reactions to Hawke using Blood Magic because they didn't want a specialisation that put lots of restrictions on the character and/or made it much more difficult to play the game. Or something like that.

I hope that really isnt the case.
Because if it is, they are cutting a major point of their products' storyline to shreds.
I mean, the biggest opposition to Templar power in Thedas are mages.

Seriously, by the way the storyline runs, its Mages vs. Templars. Citizen folk with no extraordinary sill just kinda get left toward the wayside and depend on the Templars to protect them. Then there is the heinous Blood Magic. Double stacking in the fearfulness of both the normal races and the Templars and to the mages themselves, are blood mages. Those that are supposidly users of demonic power granted to them by demonic favours and lore.
One would think that if not at least some notice taken for the PC being a mage, than there would be a large opposition/favour depending on your companions viewpoint whether they could continue working with the PC or attack them outright.

I dont know... it just seems such an OBVIOUS fact that is overlooked kinda makes the game seem sort of lacking in my opinion.

Additionally, is there any sort of recognition if your warrior Hawke takes on the Templar skillset?

[dragonflight288]

I think in DA2, it's more about that Hawke remained hidden for so long. Remember that Varic is telling this story-and does embellish parts of it. A lot. I think regardless of what Hawke's wearing and what he does, what really happened was kind of different for him/her.

[Kitaen]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think in DA2, it's more about that Hawke remained hidden for so long. Remember that Varic is telling this story-and does embellish parts of it. A lot. I think regardless of what Hawke's wearing and what he does, what really happened was kind of different for him/her.

I see your point.
I just wish that it actually MATTERED that I chose a specialization.
It kinda takes the point out of bothering to specialize in anything that would be storyarc related like Templar and Blood Mage.

Bioware, this thread should give you some pointers to think about in the next installment of this game.

[Bluumberry]

Kitaen wrote...

- Flemeth is known as a mage and hypothetically more due to her myth, backstory and continued existance. She never openly mentions knowing the Warden or Hawke is a mage in their first meeting or in consequential remeets, but it could be assumed she feels magic power from them and never openly mentions it; potentially due to her having cautionary tact.

Didn't read everything but this is partly wrong. In DA2 when you ask Flemeth "What is a Witch of the Wilds exactly?" The conversation will eventually go:

Hawke: "So you're an apostate?"
Flemeth: "Yes, we have so much in common!"

Or Bethany asking the question and Flemeth replying "Yes, just like you." if I remember (I usually play a mage so can't remember from the demo).

[RVonE]

It's not about recognizing mages or blood mages. It is about interaction in general. The game dictates at which points NPCs can refer to something specific about you and when you can refer to something specific about them. If it were up to me, the moment Anders started ****ing about Merrill, Hawke would've pulled her greatsword of her back and sliced his damned face off instead of just standing there and saying nothing.
Having the game respond to whether or not Hawke is a blood mage is just as arbitrary as making Hawke pull out a tiny knife while she has a Greatsword--with which I mean that it is just the result of the restriction imposed by budget, time, and the sheer complexity that would result otherwise.

Modifié par RVonE, 27 mars 2011 - 04:57 .

[Kitaen]

RVonE wrote...

It's not about recognizing mages or blood mages. It is about interaction in general. The game dictates at which points NPCs can refer to something specific about you and when you can refer to something specific about them. If it were up to me, the moment Anders started ****ing about Merrill, Hawke would've pulled her greatsword of her back and sliced his damned face off instead of just standing there and saying nothing.
Having the game respond to whether or not Hawke is a blood mage is just as arbitrary as making Hawke pull out a tiny knife while she has a Greatsword--with which I mean that it is just the result of the restriction imposed by budget, time, and the sheer complexity that would result otherwise.

@Bluumberry
You are correct in that statement that in the beginning if you chose to be the smarty with the middle option, Flemeth will give you a recognization of herself and Hawke, but then again one would expect that. Since she saw Hawke magically take down the Ogre, and she herself changed from a dragon to a humanoid form in front of all of them, it would be rather obvious.

@RVonE
Yes, I understand the game is about interaction, and that is my point. There is almost no interaction when it comes to the choices you made as a specialization. As a warrior thatyou mentioned, did you choose the Templar spec? Did anyoe notice you weilded Templar powers? No? What about if you played through as a Mage? Did anyone care that you were a Blood Mage? No again? Exactly my point.


Blood Mages are supposed to be the pinnicle of man gone evil, and are feverently hunted by the Chantry and Mercs alike. Yet, for all the fuss in the Thedas cultures save Tevinter, nobod seems to care that Hawke is obviously and blatently a Blood Mage. But when Merrill shows off her Blood Mage power, your people give you a bit of a fuss over it, but not much. That is why I said that that part of the game is broken.


It should matter what specialization you chose. As a storywriter and as the story goes, regardless of Varric's embellishments, history should have shown if Hawke became a Blood Mage and if they did, then things should have turned out a bit differently. I understand about time constraints and budget, but really, its plain as day that that part of the storyline is dead.

[RVonE]

While I agree that it would greatly improve the experience, I fail to see why you're so focused on the blood mage thing. Yes, it matters in the world, but NPCs don't recognize you being a blood mage as much as they don't react to you being a fierce warrior. Or better yet, isn't it weird how in Act III everyone knows you're the champion and still there are some random chumps who think they can make demands of you by threatening you?
I agree that some recognition should be in there, but if you really want the blood mage thing to matter, don't you think BioWare would have to write an entirely different story for those who choose that specialization? That costs way to much resources. So if the choice is to have the option to choose blood mage but not have NPCs react to that or have no blood mage specialization at all, I'd choose the first option, no contest. There is a difference between storytelling and telling a story in this interactive medium, which is both the medium's strength and its weakness, I think.
You say you understand about constraints and budget and yet you choose this aspect to fuss over. Don't you agree that this game has far more glaring issues than NPCs not entirely acknowledging your choices?
Please don't misunderstand me, I do agree with you on some level but I'd say that it is also important to be somewhat realistic with regard to what to expect.

[HolyJellyfish]

I was always under the impression that in Act 3, Hawke's status as the Champion pretty much makes her untouchable. Meredith can't do ANYTHING except hope to pick up her support. If Meredith did throw Hawke into the Circle, it would doom her popularity in the eyes of Kirkwall. Keeping Hawke as "The Champion" is a political safety net for Meredith.

As for Act 2 & Act 1, I always assumed that Hawke was very good at keeping her status undercover,, and whatever work she did for the Templars almost always involved killing and/or trapping other apostates. What better apostate hunter than an apostate herself? Its like a sneaky underhanded deal, and in return, Hawke has her freedom.

It seems to justify itself if you think about this. Ignoring the blood mage.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Because they're not going to craft a large number of quests and reactions just for one class or specialization.

Do you want a realistic reaction to Hawke being a mage? Merideth sends a group of Templars against you and you kill them. Merideth sents Cullen against you and you kill them. In the middle of Act 2, Merideth herself shows up and kills you (if blood mage) or sticks you in the tower and it's game over.

It is a bit jarring though. Carver kept making a big deal about being an apostate and that we should be careful along with a few others and I just rolled my eyes because it's pointless concern. If they had taken those lines out I may have not noticed the lack of interest in an apostate mage blowing up a few men in front of the Gallows. Instead I just felt like anything anyone ever said about the mage/templar war didn't apply to me. I had no emotional investment in the battle at all.

[Kitaen]

RVonE wrote...

While I agree that it would greatly improve the experience, I fail to see why you're so focused on the blood mage thing. Yes, it matters in the world, but NPCs don't recognize you being a blood mage as much as they don't react to you being a fierce warrior. Or better yet, isn't it weird how in Act III everyone knows you're the champion and still there are some random chumps who think they can make demands of you by threatening you?

I agree that some recognition should be in there, but if you really want the blood mage thing to matter, don't you think BioWare would have to write an entirely different story for those who choose that specialization? That costs way to much resources. So if the choice is to have the option to choose blood mage but not have NPCs react to that or have no blood mage specialization at all, I'd choose the first option, no contest. There is a difference between storytelling and telling a story in this interactive medium, which is both the medium's strength and its weakness, I think.

You say you understand about constraints and budget and yet you choose this aspect to fuss over. Don't you agree that this game has far more glaring issues than NPCs not entirely acknowledging your choices?
Please don't misunderstand me, I do agree with you on some level but I'd say that it is also important to be somewhat realistic with regard to what to expect.

I am not just focused on the BM, but I am also mentioning, as I did in the original post, about the recognition of being a mage; typically only mages walk aroud in robes. However, I am also wondering if any mention or reference is made to Hawke taking on the Templar specalization either.
Typically, i'm a storyteller with detailed purpose. If its 'in there' there has to be a reason why its there. One doesnt just pt things in for filler and expect the reader to either not catch it, dismiss it and not bring it up, or just passively ignore it. If the storyteller is worth their weight they scrutenize everything they write and look for completeness.
Deciding to just 'stuff' the specializations in there for the sake of having the character be able to have them is a waste. Its meaningless to take on a specialization if there is no recognization of being it.

At LEAST Alistair gave the Warden a glint f acknowledgement when you took the templar spec and asked 'what about me?' The Alistair talks about you not going through al the long years of abuse so you dont get the uniform. Some connectors are better than just ignoring it completely. I'm not expecting the Kirkwall populous to flee at the sight of Hawke, just the fact that yes, if you took on the 'heinous' Blood Mage spec, there are consequences to it. Templars will chase you, people will distrust you if word gets out. Makes your choices as a PC a little more important, and forces a deeper bit of thought in ones onw cover and concealment.

Yes, it is wierd that they know Hawke is the Champion, but there are always some whom will 'test' a champion to see if they are worthy of the title whether they realize it or not.

[Kitaen]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Because they're not going to craft a large number of quests and reactions just for one class or specialization.

Do you want a realistic reaction to Hawke being a mage? Merideth sends a group of Templars against you and you kill them. Merideth sents Cullen against you and you kill them. In the middle of Act 2, Merideth herself shows up and kills you (if blood mage) or sticks you in the tower and it's game over.

It is a bit jarring though. Carver kept making a big deal about being an apostate and that we should be careful along with a few others and I just rolled my eyes because it's pointless concern. If they had taken those lines out I may have not noticed the lack of interest in an apostate mage blowing up a few men in front of the Gallows. Instead I just felt like anything anyone ever said about the mage/templar war didn't apply to me. I had no emotional investment in the battle at all.

Thank you.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Really Anders going "You're a mage! You have to know what it's like!"

No actually, I don't. Perhaps if all mages became the protagonist of a Bioware game this whole thing would blow over.

[DoNotIngest]

I think it's funny how, when Idunna the Apostitute admits to using blood magic, a blood mage Hawke will say "BLOOD MAGIC!" In a damning roar. Still, tweaking interactions for every little decisions, while it certainly would be epic, would take a long, long time, and many completely different story lines.