594 réponses à ce sujet

[TJSolo]

sleepyowlet wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

TileToad wrote...

supremebloodwolf wrote...

... so, there are people that would pay $60 for a rpg game without combat interactive cg movie with video game level visuals?

Of course there are!
What I don't understand is why they insist on it being a RPG game!

Uh ... combat doesn't make a RPG. Role-playing makes an RPG. And if I can't roleplay my character, if I'm continually forced into killing continuously respawning trash-mobs, I'm not playing a role-playing game.

Every RPG I have played addresss my growth as a combatant along with the advancement of w/e forces are against me and the progression of the story.  If you character does not have the ability to sneak past combat yet you still want that character to sneak around then you aren't RPing you are dreaming.
There are various point and click adventures that have no combat but I would not them RPGs.

And diplomacy? I like talking to people better than hitting them. Nothing wrong with fighting once in a while, but the continuous respawning lemming-bandits? Act 3? Too much. Way too much fighting. It was tedious and boring, and it had only minuscule ties to the story.

My quote is talking about my experience in RPGs in general. If you want specfic examples, ME1 had a good conversational system that allowed for some circumventing of some fights via diplomacy. I believe that conversation options like that improved that game. However having the chance to say the right thing at certain times is not a skip fight button at anytime. The constant spawning of enemies in DA2 is  too much for a RPG.

Modifié par TJSolo, 21 mars 2011 - 11:00 .

[LordPaul256]

Tirigon wrote...

LordPaul256 wrote...

But skip the combat for what story? The entire Act 1 plot can be skipped.

That is, unfortunately, true.

Seriously, this feature was already in the game. Now, if you wanted a "skip combat" button while still getting XP and money... you have to pay your dues to get your rewards, you lazy bum. (Meant in a humorous way).

Why? It´s a single player game, and I don´t get paid for it, why should I work?

Because it's part of the medium.  If you don't want gameplay, then you're in the wrong medium for storytelling.

Take one of my favorite games: Final Fantasy 6.  Now, I first played this when I was 13, so nostalgia is a big factor, but I still consider the game to have good storytelling.  It would have completely failed without the gameplay.  You don't come to care about the characters unless you spend time with them.  If you only knew the game from the cut scenes (text scenes in this case) then Celes would just be a woman that got rescued and for some reason spent a lot of time collecting fish in the middle of the story.  You wouldn't know her as the ex-general who fights with both spellcasting and blades, being an integral part of the group. 

Or take Baldur's Gate.  (An example probably done to death on these forums right now).  What would Minsc have been if he wasn't in your group kicking butt and yelling at Boo to go for the eyes?  You would think he's completely crazy and probably wonder why he was in the game.  His role in the game & gameplay is part of what makes him such a memeroable character.  Edwin would just be some snarky mage if he wasn't in your group throwing around spells as the best damn mage in the game.  These characters are as much defined by what they do outside of battle as inside of it.

Not to mention how weak the whole plot of these games would be if you didn't have the emotoinal build-up and release from fighting your way through these epic battles.  Can you imagine how the battle of the Circle Tower in DA1 would go if you just skipped all the combat?

Scene 1 - The tower is full of abominations!  You want to go in?  Fine, I'll help you if you kill everyone.  Crazy bastard.
Scene 2 - Wow.  That was intense.  Everything's back to normal.  Thanks.

Elapsed time - 2-3 minutes. 

Seriously, I don't even get how this is an argument.  The whole Act 1 of DA2 would be even worse than that example, like I've mentioned earlier.  It's like recommending they take the illustrations out of comic books.

[TEWR]

LordPaul is right. However the only part about the Circle tower that is justifiable in wanting to skip is the Fade. Everything else, no. That would have to stay.

Thank the Maker Feynriel's quest in the Fade is actually fun, short, and not a gigantic "go from A to D to Z back to A, and now you should go to 9"

Moilami what if you got this option in DA3, but then hated it and came on here complaining about the "skip the battle" option saying the game was no fun anymore? You would have no one to blame but yourself.

[Galad22]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LordPaul is right. However the only part about the Circle tower that is justifiable in wanting to skip is the Fade. Everything else, no. That would have to stay.

Thank the Maker Feynriel's quest in the Fade is actually fun, short, and not a gigantic "go from A to D to Z back to A, and now you should go to 9"

Moilami what if you got this option in DA3, but then hated it and came on here complaining about the "skip the battle" option saying the game was no fun anymore? You would have no one to blame but yourself.

How could anyone hate an optional option exactly? It's not like anyone is forced to use them.

[Emberwake]

They make games like that. Theres nothing worng with it. But thats not this game, and it was never intended to be this game.

[TEWR]

Galad22 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LordPaul is right. However the only part about the Circle tower that is justifiable in wanting to skip is the Fade. Everything else, no. That would have to stay.

Thank the Maker Feynriel's quest in the Fade is actually fun, short, and not a gigantic "go from A to D to Z back to A, and now you should go to 9"

Moilami what if you got this option in DA3, but then hated it and came on here complaining about the "skip the battle" option saying the game was no fun anymore? You would have no one to blame but yourself.

How could anyone hate an optional option exactly? It's not like anyone is forced to use them.

they might hate that it was even considered to be a good idea and then come to the forums getting all mad about how the developers were incredibly stupid to add such a thing.

and you can't say this wouldn't happen. People have been getting upset about really trivial things lately.

[winterborn_89]

This whole topic makes me want to blow chunks. No one would have even had this thought when Origins was out. The ability to skip combat is sacrilege and whoever suggests it is a true noob. Granted... DA2 is a special case as the combat is awful.

[Il Divo]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

they might hate that it was even considered to be a good idea and then come to the forums getting all mad about how the developers were incredibly stupid to add such a thing.

and you can't say this wouldn't happen. People have been getting upset about really trivial things lately.

This does bring up a good point. Given some of the threads which have popped up (DA2 is a JRPG for example), this is always going to be a concern. It's easy to call the feature 'optional', but the next step is getting idiots who now complain that this Bioware game is half the length it should have been, not enough content, etc.

[TEWR]

Il Divo wrote....

This does bring up a good point. Given some of the threads which have popped up (DA2 is a JRPG for example)

"It's a JRPG, developed in Canada!"

Oh god that made me lol just now


EDIT: not saying you said that, but I thought that and it made me laugh

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mars 2011 - 04:42 .

[Galad22]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

they might hate that it was even considered to be a good idea and then come to the forums getting all mad about how the developers were incredibly stupid to add such a thing.

and you can't say this wouldn't happen. People have been getting upset about really trivial things lately.

Trivial to you perhaps. And anyway, why would it matter if they complained? It wouldn't still make the game any less good for these people, since they still wouldn't have to use if.

I for example am fairly annoyed that you can skip dialogue in DA2, but I still don't hate that optional feature and I realize that it makes the game better for some people, skipping combat just would make the game better for some others.

[Gatt9]

My quote is talking about my experience in RPGs in general. If you want specfic examples, ME1 had a good conversational system that allowed for some circumventing of some fights via diplomacy. I believe that conversation options like that improved that game. However having the chance to say the right thing at certain times is not a skip fight button at anytime. The constant spawning of enemies in DA2 is  too much for a RPG.

I think you are 100% right.  The best RPG ever hands down was Fallout 1 & 2,  not only did they have a healthy skill system with both Combat and Non-combat skills,  and they made an effort to make your statistics matter throughout the whole game in dialogue (Try playing a idiot,  you get the dialogue you'd expect),  but they also included a great number of quests with multiple approaches.

Not every confrontation had to result in combat,  it was entirely possible to talk your way through almost the entire game if that was what you wanted.  I think they both had like 2 mandatory combats,  and neither of them were the end battle.  In both games you could talk yourself to a conclusion.

That *should* be the model for modern RPGs,  multiple approaches,  the ability to diplomat your way through most of the game.  The model really shouldn't be Gears of War.

It's *really* sad that in over 10 years,  nothing has managed to surpass Black Ilse's RPG in terms of RPing.  Everything people place on a pinnacle today can't even sit at the feet of Fallout as they lack the freedom those games offered.

Evolution,  it's just amazing how that word gets tossed around today and yet nothing people refer to as "Evolved" can hold a candle to a 12 year old game.

[Soilborn88]

Yeah especially if you're going to be fighting against a **** ton of mobs that die in 1 hit aynway.

After awhile it just gets tedious. Bioware over did it on the exploding bodies and constant swarms of weak ass enemies that die by 1 skill.

[sleepyowlet]

winterborn_89 wrote...

This whole topic makes me want to blow chunks. No one would have even had this thought when Origins was out. The ability to skip combat is sacrilege and whoever suggests it is a true noob. Granted... DA2 is a special case as the combat is awful.

Yes, and some of us want the button because we find the combat in DA2 awful. If it's the same in DA3 - give me the button. And it is very likely that the combat will stay that way (repetitive and boring), because that is the direction the devs are taking the series. In Origins I didn't feel the need for it.

If that means I'm a noob, so be it.

noobowlet out

[DragonRageGT]

As long as it does not screws the game for those who actually want to play a game and not an interactive movie. I'd rather read a book or watch a good movie. My games, I like to play them. Does P&P RPG's have a skip-fight option?

And that's why difficculty level is there anyway, isn't it? Only in Nightmare the combat is somewhat challenging. The only time I changed to Normal diff. was against the Arishok, after 20 fails in NM and he died in less than 2 minutes. Then I reloaded and changed back to NM to continue my struggle until I could beat him in a over 30 minutes duel.

If constant swarms of weak ass enemies that die in 1 hit are boring for you, I'd suggest increase the difficulty to NM. There's no real sense of being the champion otherwise!

P.S.: Perhaps modders could have a bot like those in Diablo 2 hardcore that could go item hunting in Hell difficulty, adapted to Dragon Age! It should set the tactics for all PC and NPC party members and you just select at the start of a New Game, which personality you want your Hawke to have.

Then you just sit in your chair and watch it plays. In casual diff it should be pretty fast to reach the end of the game. You could also leave the house and have the game running so when you're back you'd just need rewind and watch the tape. Oh yes, there should be a button "Record gameplay" for later watching sessions.

Modifié par RageGT, 22 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[moilami]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LordPaul is right. However the only part about the Circle tower that is justifiable in wanting to skip is the Fade. Everything else, no. That would have to stay.

Thank the Maker Feynriel's quest in the Fade is actually fun, short, and not a gigantic "go from A to D to Z back to A, and now you should go to 9"

Moilami what if you got this option in DA3, but then hated it and came on here complaining about the "skip the battle" option saying the game was no fun anymore? You would have no one to blame but yourself.

It is up to the player to chose what they skip. Not to the forumite.

And I don't buy DA3 because I play games in order they has been released. I don't have plans to finish DA2 so there is no need to buy DA3. I am done with DA series.

[Goldfinger168]

RageGT wrote...

As long as it does not screws the game for those who actually want to play a game and not an interactive movie. I'd rather read a book or watch a good movie. My games, I like to play them. Does P&P RPG's have a skip-fight option?

P&P RPGs often have skills that are not combat-related and allow to handle some situations differently. Some don't even have combat as a main focus.
Also, a good DM will not have mandatory encounters that don't fit the setting or the story. In DA2, you have to fight through every quest, even when the most sensible approach would not involve combat. Would a good DM have you fight a band of thirty crappy thugs everytime you walk in the street at night ?

Gameplay in RPGs can and should have more layers than just combat, combat and combat. DA2 has much to learn from P&P in that respect.

Yes, DA2 without combat would be a shallow game. But DA2 with combat is already mostly a shallow game, just more tedious.

Modifié par Goldfinger168, 22 mars 2011 - 10:38 .

[Darkest Dreamer]

It still amazes me at the offence some take at the suggestion.

[sleepyowlet]

RageGT wrote...

As long as it does not screws the game for those who actually want to play a game and not an interactive movie. I'd rather read a book or watch a good movie. My games, I like to play them. Does P&P RPG's have a skip-fight option?

And that's why difficculty level is there anyway, isn't it? Only in Nightmare the combat is somewhat challenging. The only time I changed to Normal diff. was against the Arishok, after 20 fails in NM and he died in less than 2 minutes. Then I reloaded and changed back to NM to continue my struggle until I could beat him in a over 30 minutes duel.

If constant swarms of weak ass enemies that die in 1 hit are boring for you, I'd suggest increase the difficulty to NM. There's no real sense of being the champion otherwise!

P.S.: Perhaps modders could have a bot like those in Diablo 2 hardcore that could go item hunting in Hell difficulty, adapted to Dragon Age! It should set the tactics for all PC and NPC party members and you just select at the start of a New Game, which personality you want your Hawke to have.

Then you just sit in your chair and watch it plays. In casual diff it should be pretty fast to reach the end of the game. You could also leave the house and have the game running so when you're back you'd just need rewind and watch the tape. Oh yes, there should be a button "Record gameplay" for later watching sessions.

I think you are completely missing the point. I found the combat boring because there was so much of it. And the mob fights are all the same with no backing in the story. And I don't think anyone here said that they wanted to get rid of all the fighting. I distinctly do, however, remember some people saying that they would not want/need a button, if other ways to solve a conflict were implemented. Or if you could simply run away from the mobs like in BG.

So I play RPGs for a different reason than you. I play them for the characters I can interact with, the story, the choices I can make, and for the role-playing. I want to roleplay my character. If I wanted endless fights, I'd play a different game (UT still lives somewhere deep in the entrails of my computer, and I enjoy it time and again).
I don't want to get rid of all combat. Why does everything need to be so black and white? I just sometimes would like to do other things than fighting.

And there is such a thing as a skip-the-combat-button in a P&P. It is used when the Gamemaster goes, "Twenty goblins jump your party as you walk through the woods to the next village.", and the players are groaning "Oh no, not again. Can we please skip this crap and get on with the story?"
A good gamemaster will skip the twenty goblins, because the single reason to play a game is to have fun. An even better gamemaster would have left that senseless mob out alltogether.

[DragonRageGT]

I know what you people mean. I also enjoy many games with many cool quests that do not have combat involved. Like playing the defense counselor in NWN, investigating a murder in Risen or the trial in NWN2 although it did had combat in the evidence gathering.

Usually games have unique areas and monsters/enemies don't just keep respawning! ...like DA:O!

[AkiKishi]

LordPaul256 wrote...
Because it's part of the medium.  If you don't want gameplay, then you're in the wrong medium for storytelling.

Take one of my favorite games: Final Fantasy 6.  Now, I first played this when I was 13, so nostalgia is a big factor, but I still consider the game to have good storytelling.  It would have completely failed without the gameplay.  You don't come to care about the characters unless you spend time with them.  If you only knew the game from the cut scenes (text scenes in this case) then Celes would just be a woman that got rescued and for some reason spent a lot of time collecting fish in the middle of the story.  You wouldn't know her as the ex-general who fights with both spellcasting and blades, being an integral part of the group. 

Or take Baldur's Gate.  (An example probably done to death on these forums right now).  What would Minsc have been if he wasn't in your group kicking butt and yelling at Boo to go for the eyes?  You would think he's completely crazy and probably wonder why he was in the game.  His role in the game & gameplay is part of what makes him such a memeroable character.  Edwin would just be some snarky mage if he wasn't in your group throwing around spells as the best damn mage in the game.  These characters are as much defined by what they do outside of battle as inside of it.

Not to mention how weak the whole plot of these games would be if you didn't have the emotoinal build-up and release from fighting your way through these epic battles.  Can you imagine how the battle of the Circle Tower in DA1 would go if you just skipped all the combat?

Scene 1 - The tower is full of abominations!  You want to go in?  Fine, I'll help you if you kill everyone.  Crazy bastard.
Scene 2 - Wow.  That was intense.  Everything's back to normal.  Thanks.

Elapsed time - 2-3 minutes. 

Seriously, I don't even get how this is an argument.  The whole Act 1 of DA2 would be even worse than that example, like I've mentioned earlier.  It's like recommending they take the illustrations out of comic books.

You can switch off combat in FFVI , well random combat anyway. The gameplay lets you see their skill sets, but in FFVI the skill sets are down to which Aeons (forget what FFVI calls them) you equip on them anyway.

Giving people the ability to skip combat is no different to to the kill all console command, as long as it's not going to change the way I play I don't care how anyone else plays.

[Goldfinger168]

Sir Jools wrote...

Cutscene: a group of darkspawn charges at you.

Dialogue wheel pops up:

- Hi! [nice]
- Look, we want no trouble, here's our money... [smart]
- Die, soulless scum! [mean]
- [Kiss the emissary]. [heart]

I can see how it would totally work.

- Hai guys ! I'm totally on your side, and have shown sympathy to your cause the whole game. I've hacked and slashed my way through a thousand trash mobs just to find you, so maybe now we can take some time to discuss our common goals.
- Actually you must die because I'm insane.
- Really ? That's disappointing.
- Sorry. The game supports no reasonable outcome to this situation.
- Ok, then.
*everyone dies*
- Well. That was sad. Let's go back to Kirkwall.
*is ambushed by dozens of thugs for the 25th time*

That is so much more satisfying.

[truestatic]

I feel like if people expect medieval RPG video games without combat, that gives them totally free options of how to solve any problem, with an enormous degree of freedom in how you say, the opportunity to voice your own character etc. etc etc...

They should really find a group of people near them and play pencil and paper D&D. This is not sarcasm. This is honest suggestion. It seems like what they really want can never be truly satisfied by a video game, where even a grand degree of choice is still limited by what someone else thought to provide you with. Guys, if you wanna play a roleplaying game, then go play a roleplaying game. You won't regret it.

[sleepyowlet]

RageGT wrote...

I know what you people mean. I also enjoy many games with many cool quests that do not have combat involved. Like playing the defense counselor in NWN, investigating a murder in Risen or the trial in NWN2 although it did had combat in the evidence gathering.

Usually games have unique areas and monsters/enemies don't just keep respawning! ...like DA:O!

Yes, exactly. NWN was a wonderful game (especially the expansions), and so was DA:O. I miss being able to play a clever character. And I miss the humour. In DA2 the humour is restricted to the party-banter and to the stale quips Hawke makes. Sad. And I miss fights that have a meaning - Act3 of DA2 felt like needless slaughter to me. In Origins there were moments when attackers yielded to you and you could decide, do I let them go, or do I kill them all. I can remember three instances on top of my head, and I'm sure there were more.