39 réponses à ce sujet

[NKKKK]

Templars no longer respond to the Chantry, but to the public sector (the crown, the city, the country etc.). As such, their own liberty is much more relaxed and this is still assuming Templars really do need Lyrium and it isn't a chantry lie. If they in fact really do need lyrium for these abilities, then it would be the government who controls it, not the Chantry.

Due to strict birth screenings for all citizens (where a templar attends every possible birth or if not possible visits the new child days after birth) and mages would be recognized at a young age, notified to both the family and the government and would be left alone. 

At six years old, the child mages would (by mandatory) go to reworked Circles of Magi, who now function more as schools then as prisons. 

Instead of being under the eye of the chantry, they are administrated by the more neutral government, and as such the circles are now a place of learning, a sanctuary and a home as well, until graduation day.

Templars are still there, but only function in case of emergencies, as such the relationship can be much fore fruitful and cordial. Harrowings no longer exist, although perhaps a similar final exam can take place (this is open to suggestions). Similarly, tranquils no longer exist as well, or perhaps they can still exist but only voluntarily. 

Unlike in the old circles, familial ties and relationships aren't broken. Families can visits, everybody can write home as well. Summer vacations can be considered in the late years before graduation. As such phylantropies will function still, but are destroyed come graduation. 

Mages graduate usually at 18, though this may vary depending on the mage. Once graduated they can return to normal life or if they wish apply for advanced training to earn the title of "Enchanter". (this is synonymous to Post-Secondary studies).

If during the stay in the circle a mage was to have a child, the child is sent to it's grandparents or any other relative and the parent or parents are free to care for it come graduation.

Blood Magic is prohibited, but the mere act is not punishable by death and the mage is simply rehabilitated. Harming someone with blood magic is different however. Murder by blood magic is punishable by death (but then again so is all murder).

If an adult apostate were to be discovered, there are many options. If the apostate lives in the wilderness, then it can be left alone. Otherwise, there is an assessment of it's skills and the apostate takes a sort of mage GED (lol Americans know what it is). If satisfactory, the mage is required to do nothing else and is free to live it's life. If not-satisfactory, the apostate stays in the circle (the time depends on the skills). 

In this case, Templars aren't abusive ****s, mages aren't left unchecked and most importantly, it doesn't break families.

[Helena Tylena]

One question: assuming Thedas works like medieval Europe, and therefor that children learn their parents' crafts and pick those up upon reaching maturity... what would a mage do specifically in 'normal life'? I can see the army has a use for them, but they can't ALL want to sign up?

[NKKKK]

Well a mage certaintly wouldn't be out of work if they want sign up, but honestly, the school is there for them to learn how to control their abilities, not a vocational school.

If a mage wants to be a goddamn carpenter, then he can be a goddamn carpenter. After he graduates form the circle of course.

Actually, during school, mages can take electives or not. and more importatnly the environment doesn't impeded social growth, unlike a certain other circle we know.

Modifié par NKKKK, 20 mars 2011 - 02:40 .

[NKKKK]

Bumped on account of wanting to see this come into a full discussion.

[Koffeegirl]

I agree that the Chantry shouldn't control Templars. They should be employed the by government (separation of Church and State). Templars should also not be forced to consume lyrium. The Chantry states that it helps with their "abilities", but I believe this is just an excuse so they can control them, Alistair has templar abilities and can teach them to other in DAO, and he never became addicted to lyrium. Mages that consort with demons,use blood magic to control others would be persecuted for their actions, not being mages. As we saw in Sebastian's quest, one does not have to be a mage to make deals with a demon. I agree that mages should be able to choose any job they choose, if a mage wants to open up a bakery let them.

Edit: However, thanks to Anders I don't think this is going to happen:unsure:

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 20 mars 2011 - 04:32 .

[Medhia Nox]

Can't wait for all these humble mages to turn out like Connor - entire towns destroyed by a demon-possessed child.

This isn't Harry Potter - that's children's magic with no consequence. This is almost, but not quite, like Warhammer psyker abilities - where they're dangerous individuals just by being who they are.

[Koffeegirl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can't wait for all these humble mages to turn out like Connor - entire towns destroyed by a demon-possessed child.

This isn't Harry Potter - that's children's magic with no consequence. This is almost, but not quite, like Warhammer psyker abilities - where they're dangerous individuals just by being who they are.

maybe there could be more Templars? They could be part of the town/city guard. They could be highly trained and in every town to help prevent this from happening. If a child shows signs of possession, then the Templars could take care of it? I guess the problem would be having enough Templars. Also, Connors was never taught to control his powers and never went to the Circle....his only training in magic was by Jowan...a blood mage...who probably wasn't the best tutor for him. Proper magical instruction could of possibly prevented the whole Redcliffe fiasco.

[Snore]

A good idea, but I have two issues with it :

1. Why get rid of the Harrowings? It's a good way to test the mages ability to resist demons.
2. Getting rid of phylantropies, in my opinion, is not a wise move. If a mage becomes a apostate wouldn't it be a smart move to be able to track the mage though it and keep an eye on the mage.

[Koffeegirl]

Blackwolf93S wrote...

A good idea, but I have two issues with it :

1. Why get rid of the Harrowings? It's a good way to test the mages ability to resist demons.
2. Getting rid of phylantropies, in my opinion, is not a wise move. If a mage becomes a apostate wouldn't it be a smart move to be able to track the mage though it and keep an eye on the mage.

I agree that phylacteries should be kept (despite that fact that it's you know blood magic ).
Also, Harrowings could be used..... but, some apostates like Hawke resist without them. I think this should be considred carefully and pros and cons weighed accordingly.

[XX-Pyro]

Why not have the mages require an anual or bianual check with the Templars to make sure they aren't possesed? Those who fail to show up for it can be captured and questioned usiimg the phylactories.

Also agree with many of the above posts.

[NKKKK]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can't wait for all these humble mages to turn out like Connor - entire towns destroyed by a demon-possessed child.

This isn't Harry Potter - that's children's magic with no consequence. This is almost, but not quite, like Warhammer psyker abilities - where they're dangerous individuals just by being who they are.

see Arlathan and Ancient Imperium.

Also u mad.

Why get rid of the Harrowings? It's a good way to test the mages ability to resist demons. 

There has to be a better way, maybe what we did with Feynriel, an assisted harrowing, much like Korgan rites, you can bring whom you wish.

But even this debatable. 

Modifié par NKKKK, 20 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[Carmen_Willow]

NKKKK wrote...

Templars no longer respond to the Chantry, but to the public sector (the crown, the city, the country etc.). As such, their own liberty is much more relaxed and this is still assuming Templars really do need Lyrium and it isn't a chantry lie. If they in fact really do need lyrium for these abilities, then it would be the government who controls it, not the Chantry.....

One thing I would add is that Mages cannot hold any sort of office or political position.  They cannot be nobles and inherit titles.  That way lies Tevinter, and I don't think anyone wants that....

[MColes]

NKKKK wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can't wait for all these humble mages to turn out like Connor - entire towns destroyed by a demon-possessed child.

This isn't Harry Potter - that's children's magic with no consequence. This is almost, but not quite, like Warhammer psyker abilities - where they're dangerous individuals just by being who they are.

see Arlathan and Ancient Imperium.

Also u mad.

Why get rid of the Harrowings? It's a good way to test the mages ability to resist demons. 

There has to be a better way, maybe what we did with Feynriel, an assisted harrowing, much like Korgan rites, you can bring whom you wish.

But even this debatable. 

Arlathan was different.  They were immortal, ageless.  They had a fundimental difference in perception of the world.  And the Ancient Imperium is an example? The very nation who practically defines "Absolute power, corrupts absolutely" in Dragon age?

And we as of yet, have no idea how Feynriel will turn out, after you help him.  If you don't do the quest, he does go bad and becomes a Dream Stalker.  Which is bad.  Very bad.

[Dean_the_Young]

Koffeegirl wrote...

Also, Harrowings could be used..... but, some apostates like Hawke resist without them. I think this should be considred carefully and pros and cons weighed accordingly.

The Harrowings aren't something that boost an ability to resist demons, but rather prove that the person already possesses a reliably strong mind. Apostates who would resist demon possession would already pass the Harrowing.

It's a certification process to let authorities know someone is safe, not a booster shot of any sort. The entire point of mage schooling is to teach and prepare prospective mages to resist the dangers: if they can't prove they can, the education has no demonstrated value.

[Carmen_Willow]

MColes wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can't wait for all these humble mages to turn out like Connor - entire towns destroyed by a demon-possessed child.

This isn't Harry Potter - that's children's magic with no consequence. This is almost, but not quite, like Warhammer psyker abilities - where they're dangerous individuals just by being who they are.

see Arlathan and Ancient Imperium.

Also u mad.

Why get rid of the Harrowings? It's a good way to test the mages ability to resist demons. 

There has to be a better way, maybe what we did with Feynriel, an assisted harrowing, much like Korgan rites, you can bring whom you wish.

But even this debatable. 

Arlathan was different.  They were immortal, ageless.  They had a fundimental difference in perception of the world.  And the Ancient Imperium is an example? The very nation who practically defines "Absolute power, corrupts absolutely" in Dragon age?

And we as of yet, have no idea how Feynriel will turn out, after you help him.  If you don't do the quest, he does go bad and becomes a Dream Stalker.  Which is bad.  Very bad.

It did bother me that I was sending this nuclear weapon of a mage off to get trained by the most corrupt of the corrupt in the Imperium.  After I'd done it,  I did wonder if that decision was going to turn out to be BAD!

[Neirina]

I don't like the idea of keeping the phylacteries, that's not freedom for the mages. How would you like it if the gps in your cell phone was available as a means for others to keep an eye on where you are? It's intrusive.

It's better to keep records of mages and have them check in once in a while as someone suggested, and if they don't show up, put up wanted signs (maybe even a reward? hehe ). Or just have enough templars around.

[Dean_the_Young]

You realize they already can track you by your cell phone, yes?

Or maybe you don't. Which makes the irony a bit greater.

The number of Templars you would need to keep track of people who 'accidentally' forget to check in and aren't easily locatable would be far, far more intrusive than the actual intrusion of phylacteries. Which really are just GPS, and not spy-bugs or listening devices or any such thing.

[Dark Specie]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
One thing I would add is that Mages cannot hold any sort of office or political position.  They cannot be nobles and inherit titles.  That way lies Tevinter, and I don't think anyone wants that....

Right, if there should ever be a peace treaty between the mages/templars/others in the future which means more freedom for mages, then this is one thing I cannot see them backing off from - Mages may gain more freedom to govern themselves among other things, but be denied the right to govern others.

[AcidRelic]

I agree with the OP except like others stated the phylacteries should be kept as a "gps" for mages who are thought to be doing BAD things and templars should be more spread out like a certain % ... 15-25% of each town/city guard is a templar. If you look at DA:O (DA:2 over did it) how many blood mages were there excluding the ones FORCED because of how tight templar rule was and it being like a prison.

[NKKKK]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Templars no longer respond to the Chantry, but to the public sector (the crown, the city, the country etc.). As such, their own liberty is much more relaxed and this is still assuming Templars really do need Lyrium and it isn't a chantry lie. If they in fact really do need lyrium for these abilities, then it would be the government who controls it, not the Chantry.....

One thing I would add is that Mages cannot hold any sort of office or political position.  They cannot be nobles and inherit titles.  That way lies Tevinter, and I don't think anyone wants that....

Why hell not? Once again what they do after they graduate is up to them. But even mage nobles have to go to school as well.

Besides from what we've seen, either the Thedas Monarchies don't have much magic in ther line, or they do, and many rulers have secretly been mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

I should add I fail to see how this system actually has any claim to effectively preventing just about anything.

It's really just boarding school, with no graduation exam, and relies almost entirely on the voluntary participation of the mages to even track them. It can't claim to deliver any exceptional means to counter mages exceptional powers, nor is a system inclined towards actively preventing the sort of abuses that got the Templar/Circle system created in the first place.

If Dragon Age mages were as easy to stop as, say, Harry Potter mages... well, that might be justified then. But they really aren't, outside of particular circumstances that wouldn't apply. The entire system depends on police-state capabilities, without allowing police-state capabilities, and in many respects is flawed in unsupported claims. (Magic doesn't show signs, for example, well into a child's life.)

The premise that a neutral party will exist once it starts watching the mages is more than a little ludicrous. Once they are involved, they are no longer a neutral agency, nor are national governments less inclined to abuse position or authority in their own interests than the Chantry.

The entire system is based around the premise that a boarding-school education up to high school will prevent children from wishing to abuse their potent powers for their own advantage. A premise, which when you consider the output of compulsorily education in the here and now, is patently ridiculous.

Given that the entire method and model of responding to mage abuses and abominations is not preventative, but reactive, and punishments are never as severe as the crimes can easily be, the system really doesn't offer much to reassure the populace as a whole.

And we already know what the population as a whole would do the mages if they could.

[NKKKK]

The entire system is based around the premise that a boarding-school education up to high school will prevent children from wishing to abuse their potent powers for their own advantage. A premise, which when you consider the output of compulsorily education in the here and now, is patently ridiculous.

About as ridiculous as a religious origination mistreating it's different citizens, breaking apart their families and causing more problems than their help. 

I see a lot of "this sucks harry potter hur hur" but I didn't see you post anything else that won't be "Tranquil them" "Kill them" "Or keep a similar brutal system",

Modifié par NKKKK, 20 mars 2011 - 06:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

NKKKK wrote...
About as ridiculous as a religious origination mistreating it's different citizens, breaking apart their families and causing more problems than their help.

When the Circle is followed, mages are kept away from the non-magi... which works as intended. Mages aren't being killed by the public who hates and fears them, and mages aren't harming the public. Even when the occassional mage in the circle goes crazy and does damage, that damage is, again, restrained to within the circle.

When an unwatched abomination outside of the circle goes crazy, the damage can easily go up towards the triple digits even for an untrained mage: Conner being an obvious case. Since an abomination wouldn't let himself be watched or constrained at all, your system doesn't really change that.

But when even the gravest demonic/blood mage/abomination outbreaks occur in the Circle, the damage doesn't spill out. When the Circle of Ferelden was nearly entirely overwhelmed, the common people weren't affected. The people who could deal with it were closest at hand, and best prepared to deal with it. Abominations are far less dangerous when the primary locations of their appearance are the most prepared to deal with them.

And that, for the most part, the Circle does rather well. And, since abominations and rogue mages are the far greater problems than broken families and limitations of minority rights...

I see a lot of "this sucks harry potter hur hur" but I didn't see you post anything else that won't be "Tranquil them" "Kill them" "Or keep a similar brutal system",

And why should I? If your system is worse than the established system at meeting the needs that brought forth the established system, I don't need to propose an alternative to dismiss yours. The existing system is the superior alternative.

The problems that need to be resolved for greater freedom of the mages aren't Templar oversight or restrictive laws: it's the means to protect the commoners from the mages, whether those mages deliberately or inadverdantly endanger them. Only as the legitimate concerns of the super-majority are met can the Mages be given greater freedoms despite their immense powers.

Your system, on the face of it, might seem to be a nice place for the mages to live with, but it isn't just the mages who need to live with it. It's the rest of the population as well... and the rest of the population isn't simply going to be reassured when you systematically disable the apparatus to chase down dangerous mages, remove all tests that would actually validate the reliability of the mages, and then limit punishments of mages no matter what they do to the commoners.


The thing is, though, your system doesn't even meet the guarantees the mages need to be warded off from the bad magics: desparation. Yes, some mages will be desperate under the gaze of the Templars (though many more are not), but trial won't go away with the Circle. You leave mages to live normal lives, and you're going to have the stresses of normal lives. The same stresses that give birth to pushing crimes, angers, and frustrations of necessities that drive normal people to abuse what little power they have... and would likewise to push mages to abuse their much greater power even more easily.

Lust, greed, pride... these are things we all face, and most of us succumb to as normal people in the face of troubles. Mages who do so, however, don't simply become worse people: they become psychotic, active dangers to everyone around them until they are killed.

Freedom is not the antidote to putting mages at ease and beyond the reaches of the demons.

[Vandicus]

To play the devil's advocate, the Qunari use a more brutal system that appears to completely shut down blood magic and demons altogether.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can't wait for all these humble mages to turn out like Connor - entire towns destroyed by a demon-possessed child.

We know from the fall of the Dales that ordinary people can also be responsible for mass destruction.

Medhia Nox wrote...

This isn't Harry Potter - that's children's magic with no consequence. This is almost, but not quite, like Warhammer psyker abilities - where they're dangerous individuals just by being who they are.

There's a difference between properly training mages, and forcing them to live under an oppressive system they'll revolt against. The dicotomy between mages and templars is part of the theme of Dragon Age 2, and essentially what Hawke decides when he or she is faced with the decision to side with either the mages or the templars. Do you agree with the mages, or the templars? Are the templars doing the right thing, or are they wrong? Should mages be free? These questions are faced by Hawke, regardless of whether he or she is a warrior, rogue, or apostate. There's no universal truth to adhere to.