203 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

FieryDove wrote...

He destroyed a institution that to the common man in Thedas (except for perhaps tevinter) was the only safe harbor from "evil"

Tell that to Saemus, oh wait you can't.

There is a difference between seeking safe harbour by yourself or being lured there by a letter.

[FieryDove]

Knight of Dane wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

He destroyed a institution that to the common man in Thedas (except for perhaps tevinter) was the only safe harbor from "evil"

Tell that to Saemus, oh wait you can't.

There is a difference between seeking safe harbour by yourself or being lured there by a letter.

Oh...safe harbor from evil only some of the time. I see that makes it all clear. In that case why the angst over it's demise?

[Knight of Dane]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

That's not what's relevant, when we talk about the unknown no one can be certain, it might as well be doom as heaven.

What i am talking about is the annulment of the circle, the loss of safe harbor for orphan kids, the instutution of general faith in Ferelden. Alsot of people rely on the chantry other than the templars and mages, what Anders did was utterly selfish because he wanted to matter.

Blaming Anders for Meredith annulling the circle is literally the craziest thing. It's like blaming J.D. Salinger for the death of John Lennon.

You're also basically saying that if there's a dictator around, nobody should ever try to rebel or oppose them in any way, because if your rebellion causes the dictator to murder thousands of people then it's your fault. Apparently you think that we should all just sit down and follow orders when there's an angry dictator in charge, because if anything is done that sets the poor, delicate dictator off, it's not his fault if he massacres people he considers enemies of the state, is it?

Hey! According to the "Anders doomed the circle" theory, Stalin was an ok guy; stupid Sergey Kirov just shouldn't have gone and doomed all the Russian people by pissing him off.

I never said Anders was the only one at fault, but even you can't say that it wasn't his action that gave Meredith the opportunity to do what she had wanted to do as long as she had been Knight-Commander, at least i refuse to beleive you that insane.

And now you are putting words into my sentences that there isn't there. Yes, the circle was a mistake and i am also for the mage fight, but you don't really progress anywhere by doing actions that cost civilian lives. Osama bin larden didn't really gain any official support from the 9/11 attack, other than from other loonies.

You can't really discuss anything without taking three steps away from what others say can you?
You're ridiculous.

I never said that Meredith was santa claus, i never said the circle was a solution, but i AM saying that Anders did a terrible deed that eventually lead to chaos on all parts, the mage/templar problem could have been solved in another way, but Anders couldn't control Justice and thus he had to have impact.
But all that is guesswork. The mages didn't get a chance to do as they wanted, Anders took it away from them.

[Knight of Dane]

FieryDove wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

He destroyed a institution that to the common man in Thedas (except for perhaps tevinter) was the only safe harbor from "evil"

Tell that to Saemus, oh wait you can't.

There is a difference between seeking safe harbour by yourself or being lured there by a letter.

Oh...safe harbor from evil only some of the time. I see that makes it all clear. In that case why the angst over it's demise?

Nothing is ever perfect, and I'm not saying that the Chantry isn't used in the word of evil itself, but to many people it is important.

I bet every Norwegian thought Utøya was the safest place in the world too, that didn't keep Anders Breivik from killing all those peoplet..

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Knight of Dane wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

That's not what's relevant, when we talk about the unknown no one can be certain, it might as well be doom as heaven.

What i am talking about is the annulment of the circle, the loss of safe harbor for orphan kids, the instutution of general faith in Ferelden. Alsot of people rely on the chantry other than the templars and mages, what Anders did was utterly selfish because he wanted to matter.

Blaming Anders for Meredith annulling the circle is literally the craziest thing. It's like blaming J.D. Salinger for the death of John Lennon.

You're also basically saying that if there's a dictator around, nobody should ever try to rebel or oppose them in any way, because if your rebellion causes the dictator to murder thousands of people then it's your fault. Apparently you think that we should all just sit down and follow orders when there's an angry dictator in charge, because if anything is done that sets the poor, delicate dictator off, it's not his fault if he massacres people he considers enemies of the state, is it?

Hey! According to the "Anders doomed the circle" theory, Stalin was an ok guy; stupid Sergey Kirov just shouldn't have gone and doomed all the Russian people by pissing him off.

I never said Anders was the only one at fault, but even you can't say that it wasn't his action that gave Meredith the opportunity to do what she had wanted to do as long as she had been Knight-Commander, at least i refuse to beleive you that insane.

And now you are putting words into my sentences that there isn't there. Yes, the circle was a mistake and i am also for the mage fight, but you don't really progress anywhere by doing actions that cost civilian lives. Osama bin larden didn't really gain any official support from the 9/11 attack, other than from other loonies.

You can't really discuss anything without taking three steps away from what others say can you?
You're ridiculous.

I never said that Meredith was santa claus, i never said the circle was a solution, but i AM saying that Anders did a terrible deed that eventually lead to chaos on all parts, the mage/templar problem could have been solved in another way, but Anders couldn't control Justice and thus he had to have impact.
But all that is guesswork. The mages didn't get a chance to do as they wanted, Anders took it away from them.

I'm not taking three steps away from what other people say. People make outrageous blanket statements and I unravel their inherent implications. If you don't want to imply crazy things, then be more precise in your writing.

I'm not discussing whether or not what Anders did was "bad."

You said that Anders doomed the Kirkwall circle. I'm calling that particular statement into question. It's a pretty bold statement, one that implicitly at least partially relieves Meredith of culpability. It also ignores the fact that Meredith had asked the Divine directly for a Right of Annullment, and was simply waiting on the response.

Also, without Anders actions, if a Right had been called for some other reason, Hawke wouldn't have been around to interfere and every single mage would have been murdered (including Bethany, if she's there). If Hawke has the opportunity to save even a single mage, and takes it, then that mage would have been killed if Hawke was not present... and the only reason Hawke knows that Meredith is calling an ROA is because it's called when he's present, which is something that Anders orchestrates. This makes your claim that Anders doomed the circle even more tenuous.

So I can't see how you can really say that Anders doomed those mages, unless you are fairly certain that the divine would have rejected Meredith's pending request, and that Meredith would probably never have found an excuse to call it otherwise, and would have simply sat calmly in Kirkwall never causing any more trouble for mages.

And if you think Anders did what he did because he wanted to matter... did you play Awakening? Have you listened to the things Anders said back then, and compared them to what he says now? Did you actually talk to Justice in Awakening? 

Anders didn't want to matter. In fact, he prioritized his own freedom and happiness over making any kind of a difference. Even after merging with Justice, he seems to wish he could just ignore all the horrors and atrocities and just live a normal life with Hawke, but he's given up that ability. When merging with justice, he gave up any hope of achieving the thing he wanted most in life (a normal existence of freedom and respect) in the hopes that he would be able to give others the opportunity to have that normal life that was denied to him.

He did what he did because he was desperate to do anything that might prevent future generations from suffering as he did, and the solution he tried was the only thing he could think of that could concievably make a difference, after trying more peaceful means for nearly a decade.

Recently I read an article that I think throws a lot of light onto how I view the mage/templar war. It's about how some historians try to reframe the American Civil War as a tragic, preventable conflict brought about by extremist abolitionists clashing with extremist forces in the south, when a similar solution could have eventually been reached by compromise. Sure it would have resulted in slavery continuing for decades past when it ended but hey, we wouldn't have had a war then... surely a few decades or centuries of continued slavery is a decent trade for peace and stability? 

I don't think it is a good trade, not at all.

Now, do I think the method Anders used to start the war was bad? Yes. Heck yes. It's a bad choice for a bunch of reasons, and if he'd enlisted the help of my Hawke and my Warden I could have come up with a much, much better way to start the war.

But considering how exalted march happy the Divine is... starting a war on your own terms seems like pretty much the only option. Anyone who cares about the Dalish should have internalized that... when it comes to the Divine and Orlais, there is no chance of peacefully living in a way they don't approve of. If you try to deny the Chantry control over your lands, they'll march right in and destroy your nation, scatter your people, and hunt those who try to remember that the Chantry can be opposed.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 07:30 .

[FieryDove]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

(snip)

Your posts are always so thought provokingly awesome.

[Nimrodell]

So I can't see how you can really say that Anders doomed those mages, unless you are fairly certain that the divine would have rejected Meredith's pending request, and that Meredith would probably never have found an excuse to call it otherwise, and would have simply sat calmly in Kirkwall never causing any more trouble for mages.

Actually, we can be pretty much certain that Divine didn't reject Meredith's request for the RoA since ser Karras blantly states in third act that Meredith had sent the request for it. Since she was so determined to search the Circle without paying any heed to Orsino's pleads, or Hawke's for that matter (if Hawke assumes such stance), yes I'm pretty much sure that she actually had the document in her hands and was just looking for reason to exercize it (and from DA:O and Gregoir we know that templars can't actually call for RoA until they get the permission from the Chantry itself - Gregoir is waiting for it). I'm not going into her own reason and what idol used to make her such zealot - but Anders was actually waiting for the worse to happen in order to react.

[Dave of Canada]

You mean that selfish bastard who started a war? Hope you're capable of loving a corpse.

[FieryDove]

Dave of Canada wrote...

You mean that selfish bastard who started a war? Hope you're capable of loving a corpse.

Wow learn something new everyday. I thought Elthina and Meredith were female. Thanks for the info.

[Knight of Dane]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not taking three steps away from what other people say. People make outrageous blanket statements and I unravel their inherent implications. If you don't want to imply crazy things, then be more precise in your writing.

I'm not discussing whether or not what Anders did was "bad."

You said that Anders doomed the Kirkwall circle. I'm calling that particular statement into question. It's a pretty bold statement, one that implicitly at least partially relieves Meredith of culpability. It also ignores the fact that Meredith had asked the Divine directly for a Right of Annullment, and was simply waiting on the response.

Also, without Anders actions, if a Right had been called for some other reason, Hawke wouldn't have been around to interfere and every single mage would have been murdered (including Bethany, if she's there). If Hawke has the opportunity to save even a single mage, and takes it, then that mage would have been killed if Hawke was not present... and the only reason Hawke knows that Meredith is calling an ROA is because it's called when he's present, which is something that Anders orchestrates. This makes your claim that Anders doomed the circle even more tenuous.

So I can't see how you can really say that Anders doomed those mages, unless you are fairly certain that the divine would have rejected Meredith's pending request, and that Meredith would probably never have found an excuse to call it otherwise, and would have simply sat calmly in Kirkwall never causing any more trouble for mages.

And if you think Anders did what he did because he wanted to matter... did you play Awakening? Have you listened to the things Anders said back then, and compared them to what he says now? Did you actually talk to Justice in Awakening? 

Anders didn't want to matter. In fact, he prioritized his own freedom and happiness over making any kind of a difference. Even after merging with Justice, he seems to wish he could just ignore all the horrors and atrocities and just live a normal life with Hawke, but he's given up that ability. When merging with justice, he gave up any hope of achieving the thing he wanted most in life (a normal existence of freedom and respect) in the hopes that he would be able to give others the opportunity to have that normal life that was denied to him.

He did what he did because he was desperate to do anything that might prevent future generations from suffering as he did, and the solution he tried was the only thing he could think of that could concievably make a difference, after trying more peaceful means for nearly a decade.

Recently I read an article that I think throws a lot of light onto how I view the mage/templar war. It's about how some historians try to reframe the American Civil War as a tragic, preventable conflict brought about by extremist abolitionists clashing with extremist forces in the south, when a similar solution could have eventually been reached by compromise. Sure it would have resulted in slavery continuing for decades past when it ended but hey, we wouldn't have had a war then... surely a few decades or centuries of continued slavery is a decent trade for peace and stability? 

I don't think it is a good trade, not at all.

Now, do I think the method Anders used to start the war was bad? Yes. Heck yes. It's a bad choice for a bunch of reasons, and if he'd enlisted the help of my Hawke and my Warden I could have come up with a much, much better way to start the war.

But considering how exalted march happy the Divine is... starting a war on your own terms seems like pretty much the only option. Anyone who cares about the Dalish should have internalized that... when it comes to the Divine and Orlais, there is no chance of peacefully living in a way they don't approve of. If you try to deny the Chantry control over your lands, they'll march right in and destroy your nation, scatter your people, and hunt those who try to remember that the Chantry can be opposed.

All your points are based on guesswork.

I try not to talk about "what would have beens" because they can pretty much be anything from death to live, what i am saying is that Anders did a action that puts the mages on the spot.

Had the divine granded the annulment? Who knows. Elthina might have found the compromise she was looking for, had she been given time. Would it help? I doubt it, but who knows.

Given what we do know we can safely say that Meredith at least wouldn't had made the right of annulment then, her and Orsine would have taken their argument to Elthina and everything would be back to point zero.
If this is favorable? That is a matter of opinion. I would have liked it, maybe a better way would have been found.

If the divine had then given the right of annulment i would happily help the mages fight their oppresion, but war is never favorable in the first place, there is always a better way. Anders hindrered them to find that way by forcing the confrontation. Anders blew up a house he knew was important to the public. He hit the templars and the mages problem at its core. And the only thing that comes from it is death.

My basic point was that Anders actions touch many more than just his people. I have always agreed that the mages should be freed, but never by taking lives from somewhere else. Peace is always optainabe.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Indeed. That thing didn't work when a bunch of people started to deliberately kill Garrus in their playthroughs as "revenge" for him being announced for ME3, and it don't work with Anders either.

Haters gonna hate, as the kids today say.

[Wulfram]

Allowing Meredith to destroy the circle was the whole point of Anders/Justice's actions. He hates it as an instrument of oppression, and he hates the inmates for submitting.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wulfram wrote...

Allowing Meredith to destroy the circle was the whole point of Anders/Justice's actions. He hates it as an instrument of oppression, and he hates the inmates for submitting.

Sometimes I really wonder what game people are playing. That's Morrigan you're thinking of.

Anders doesn't want the Circle destroyed, he expects Hawke to be able to save the mages in the Circle. What he wants to do is show the world that the Templars will murder mages at any time for any reason they feel like, even if the mages involved are completely innocent.

That's always been true, of course, but if the Annulment in Kirkwall happens, the world now sees that it's true... that the templars were willing to murder innocent mages, that even complete obedience and cooperation aren't enough to ensure your safety, if you're a mage. It's funny that Anders' plan only works if the templars are unrepentatant, illogical murderers. If they weren't, blowing up the chantry would have just lead to Anders' own execution, no annulment, and no revolution.

The Annullment of Kirkwall shows the mages in other circles that just meekly staying in the circle and not causing trouble won't prevent Templars from just deciding to murder them any time anything goes wrong. It shows those complacent mages that they will always be templar scapegoats, that templars will easily kill any innocent mage in order to punish the guilty, without a second thought.

If he wanted them to die, why would he fight on their behalf if you let him go and side with the templars? In that case he does not leave them to their fate, rather he dies for them.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 09:32 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Knight of Dane wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not taking three steps away from what other people say. People make outrageous blanket statements and I unravel their inherent implications. If you don't want to imply crazy things, then be more precise in your writing.

I'm not discussing whether or not what Anders did was "bad."

You said that Anders doomed the Kirkwall circle. I'm calling that particular statement into question. It's a pretty bold statement, one that implicitly at least partially relieves Meredith of culpability. It also ignores the fact that Meredith had asked the Divine directly for a Right of Annullment, and was simply waiting on the response.

Also, without Anders actions, if a Right had been called for some other reason, Hawke wouldn't have been around to interfere and every single mage would have been murdered (including Bethany, if she's there). If Hawke has the opportunity to save even a single mage, and takes it, then that mage would have been killed if Hawke was not present... and the only reason Hawke knows that Meredith is calling an ROA is because it's called when he's present, which is something that Anders orchestrates. This makes your claim that Anders doomed the circle even more tenuous.

So I can't see how you can really say that Anders doomed those mages, unless you are fairly certain that the divine would have rejected Meredith's pending request, and that Meredith would probably never have found an excuse to call it otherwise, and would have simply sat calmly in Kirkwall never causing any more trouble for mages.

And if you think Anders did what he did because he wanted to matter... did you play Awakening? Have you listened to the things Anders said back then, and compared them to what he says now? Did you actually talk to Justice in Awakening? 

Anders didn't want to matter. In fact, he prioritized his own freedom and happiness over making any kind of a difference. Even after merging with Justice, he seems to wish he could just ignore all the horrors and atrocities and just live a normal life with Hawke, but he's given up that ability. When merging with justice, he gave up any hope of achieving the thing he wanted most in life (a normal existence of freedom and respect) in the hopes that he would be able to give others the opportunity to have that normal life that was denied to him.

He did what he did because he was desperate to do anything that might prevent future generations from suffering as he did, and the solution he tried was the only thing he could think of that could concievably make a difference, after trying more peaceful means for nearly a decade.

Recently I read an article that I think throws a lot of light onto how I view the mage/templar war. It's about how some historians try to reframe the American Civil War as a tragic, preventable conflict brought about by extremist abolitionists clashing with extremist forces in the south, when a similar solution could have eventually been reached by compromise. Sure it would have resulted in slavery continuing for decades past when it ended but hey, we wouldn't have had a war then... surely a few decades or centuries of continued slavery is a decent trade for peace and stability? 

I don't think it is a good trade, not at all.

Now, do I think the method Anders used to start the war was bad? Yes. Heck yes. It's a bad choice for a bunch of reasons, and if he'd enlisted the help of my Hawke and my Warden I could have come up with a much, much better way to start the war.

But considering how exalted march happy the Divine is... starting a war on your own terms seems like pretty much the only option. Anyone who cares about the Dalish should have internalized that... when it comes to the Divine and Orlais, there is no chance of peacefully living in a way they don't approve of. If you try to deny the Chantry control over your lands, they'll march right in and destroy your nation, scatter your people, and hunt those who try to remember that the Chantry can be opposed.

All your points are based on guesswork.

I try not to talk about "what would have beens" because they can pretty much be anything from death to live, what i am saying is that Anders did a action that puts the mages on the spot.

Had the divine granded the annulment? Who knows. Elthina might have found the compromise she was looking for, had she been given time. Would it help? I doubt it, but who knows.

Given what we do know we can safely say that Meredith at least wouldn't had made the right of annulment then, her and Orsine would have taken their argument to Elthina and everything would be back to point zero.
If this is favorable? That is a matter of opinion. I would have liked it, maybe a better way would have been found.

If the divine had then given the right of annulment i would happily help the mages fight their oppresion, but war is never favorable in the first place, there is always a better way. Anders hindrered them to find that way by forcing the confrontation. Anders blew up a house he knew was important to the public. He hit the templars and the mages problem at its core. And the only thing that comes from it is death.

My basic point was that Anders actions touch many more than just his people. I have always agreed that the mages should be freed, but never by taking lives from somewhere else. Peace is always optainabe.

So do you believe that the American Civil War shouldn't have happened? That peace and slavery in that case was preferable to a war that killed hundreds of thousands, but ultimate resulted in the abolition of slavery? What about the revolutionary war? The Korean War? Should we have just let the now North Korean government take South Korea as well? 

Peace is always obtainable, sure. But that's not the only issue in play here. You are saying that peace with continued apartheid and internment is preferable to war that has the potential to end that apartheid and internment.

If you truly believe that, come out and say it. Because if you're saying the mage/templar war is unequivocably bad, then that's what you're inherently asserting.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 09:34 .

[Knight of Dane]

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

[Wulfram]

Anders doesn't act fully rationally, because he is possessed by a demon and going mad.

Anders wants the circle destroyed, which isn't the same as killing the mages.  Justice thinks those who will not fight back are collaborators and deserve death - like Ella, who he kills if Hawke doesn't say precisely the right thing to recall Anders back to control. 

They both find their current situation intolerable, and want Anders to die and thus Justice to be freed.

[Giggles_Manically]

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"

The civil war was more about industry and politics then about slavery. COTTON was a bigger player then the institution of slavery.

War does not really give you a better world or help things in the long run.
Europe took decades to recover from both World Wars millions upon millions died and many of them were innocent people.

War is always a terrible thing and it always carries with it a high cost.
No matter the outcome many people will die who did nothing to deserve it. Many innocent mages will get killed even if they dont want to fight. Many good templars like Thrask or Emeric or Otto who simply want to help people will also get killed. Plus all the civilians WHO WILL die in the crossfire simply by being next to the fighting.

People seem to think of war of some righteous event where its clinically done and things are going to end well. Its not nor will it ever be.

Violence begets violence begets violence begets more violence.
As a good scene in DS9 went:
Kira: This war is over.
Female Changeling: I doubt the Breen or the Jem'Hadar will agree with that assessment. They will fight to the last man.
Kira: What will that accomplish?
Female Changeling: Isn't it obvious? You may win this war, Commander. But I promise you, by the time its over you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat."

[Xilizhra]

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"

Good thing that Anders wasn't fighting for peace. In fact, peace was what was causing all the problems, allowing the templars to get away with their abuses. It's freedom he's fighting for.

The civil war was more about industry and politics then about slavery. COTTON was a bigger player then the institution of slavery.

Much of that is Confederate apologetics garbage. It wasn't solely about slavery, but slavery was a major factor.

War does not really give you a better world or help things in the long run.
Europe took decades to recover from both World Wars millions upon millions died and many of them were innocent people

The first one was, to be sure, idiocy, but the second one was well worth it. On the non-genocidal side, anyway.

War is always a terrible thing and it always carries with it a high cost.
No matter the outcome many people will die who did nothing to deserve it. Many innocent mages will get killed even if they dont want to fight. Many good templars like Thrask or Emeric or Otto who simply want to help people will also get killed. Plus all the civilians WHO WILL die in the crossfire simply by being next to the fighting.

Also true. Compare that to everyone who might be killed/raped/Tranquilized in all the years to come if the Circle system remains intact.

[HopHazzard]

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

Mages aren't trying to take people's freedom. They do seem to be willing to take lives to obtain their own freedom, and really I can't blame them. This war was always going to happen. The mages lived under a system they considered intolerable and the chantry's repsonse was to kill or tranquilize anyone who complained too loudly. Compromise was never an option. In order for any kind of peaceful solution to occur the chantry would have to admit that the current system was broken and needed to be changed. If you suggest that to Cullen his answer is that the templars need to try harder to teach mages why they deserve their fate and then they'll all stop complaining about how unfairly they're being treated. That's not a position the mages can negotiate from.

[Vicious]

Anders doesn't act fully rationally, because he is possessed by a demon and going mad.

Anders wants the circle destroyed, which isn't the same as killing the mages. Justice thinks those who will not fight back are collaborators and deserve death - like Ella, who he kills if Hawke doesn't say precisely the right thing to recall Anders back to control.

This. Anders is probably the best character [besides Hawke and Varric of course] in the entire game. A lot of people were upset because he changed so much, But they tend to forget that he 'changes' primarily in Act 3, which is like 6+ years later than we saw him in DA:A, and the whole time he has been living with a crazy spirit in his head.

Like I said, best character. Shame he pretty much can't live long past DA2.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

All wars invovle the death of innocents. The morally best army you can think of fighting the most morally justified war in human history killed innocents. It's called collatoral damage, and it's part of war.

Do I hate war? Yes. I really, really do. But if one side is already using violence and is putting people in camps, the ship of "peaceful resolution" has already sailed. And the Chantry LOVES putting people in camps. It's basically their MO. Mages, elves... it's exalted marches and internment or apartheid all day every day. As long as the Chantry exists as the dominant military power, there can never be any real hope of long-term peace. The Divine can declare war at any instant, it's a threat that she holds over any state, region, or people who dare oppose her. Leliana tells you that the Divine is threatening to indiscriminately send the templars to kill every person in Kirkwall (that's how Exalted marches work) if the mages gain freedom there. What's the peaceful solution when someone is threatening to send an army to kill every single person in your country? Do you just submit to the demands of any tyrant who threatens to murder you, in the hopes of maintaining peace?

Now, I would far far prefer that the chantry bomb kill only Elthina and possibly some templars, all of whom are part of the regime with the policy of internment that is threatening war with Kirkwall. Anyone not directly affiliated with the Chantry would hopefully not be harmed. We don't know for sure how many non-chantry people were killed in that blast, but I'd agree that, preferably, nobody but Elthina and Templars should have died.

[Knight of Dane]

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

Mages aren't trying to take people's freedom. They do seem to be willing to take lives to obtain their own freedom, and really I can't blame them. This war was always going to happen. The mages lived under a system they considered intolerable and the chantry's repsonse was to kill or tranquilize anyone who complained too loudly. Compromise was never an option. In order for any kind of peaceful solution to occur the chantry would have to admit that the current system was broken and needed to be changed. If you suggest that to Cullen his answer is that the templars need to try harder to teach mages why they deserve their fate and then they'll all stop complaining about how unfairly they're being treated. That's not a position the mages can negotiate from.

Killing innocent people is the same as taing away their freedom.
If i were a mage i would join them too up until the point where they kill innocents to acheive their ends. Anders beleived that too once.

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

What's the peaceful solution when someone is threatening to send an army to kill every single person in your country?

Ignoring how you're suggesting that Exalted Marches are meant to kill everybody, which it isn't, the only peaceful solution is not by proving the person who's considering one right.

[Knight of Dane]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

All wars invovle the death of innocents. The morally best army you can think of fighting the most morally justified war in human history killed innocents. It's called collatoral damage, and it's part of war.

Do I hate war? Yes. I really, really do. But if one side is already using violence and is putting people in camps, the ship of "peaceful resolution" has already sailed. And the Chantry LOVES putting people in camps. It's basically their MO. Mages, elves... it's exalted marches and internment or apartheid all day every day. As long as the Chantry exists as the dominant military power, there can never be any real hope of long-term peace. The Divine can declare war at any instant, it's a threat that she holds over any state, region, or people who dare oppose her. Leliana tells you that the Divine is threatening to indiscriminately send the templars to kill every person in Kirkwall (that's how Exalted marches work) if the mages gain freedom there. What's the peaceful solution when someone is threatening to send an army to kill every single person in your country? Do you just submit to the demands of any tyrant who threatens to murder you, in the hopes of maintaining peace?

Now, I would far far prefer that the chantry bomb kill only Elthina and possibly some templars, all of whom are part of the regime with the policy of internment that is threatening war with Kirkwall. Anyone not directly affiliated with the Chantry would hopefully not be harmed. We don't know for sure how many non-chantry people were killed in that blast, but I'd agree that, preferably, nobody but Elthina and Templars should have died.

It seems that we agree. War is horrible but sometimes unavoidable. I beleive that innocents should be spared for harm, but i also beleive in fighting for your freedom as long as it doesn't hurt those that doesn't oppose it directly. That is it.

[Vicious]

Compromise was never an option.

Funny you say that, but Anders can almost be convinced that Compromise *IS* an option before Justice takes over, and if you rival him, he helps you annul the circle to prevent the War that should never have been started in the first place.


So... what's the war for. Free Mages? Mages Eliminated? Neither is possible because Mages will always exist and the Templars [or people who fight the Mages] will exist too.

So who's the winner? The demons, who get to enjoy a war that is highly likely to sunder the veil across the world.