203 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Vicious wrote...

So who's the winner? The demons, who get to enjoy a war that is highly likely to sunder the veil across the world.

"The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."
Desire Demon: Excellent, their desire for freedom will be easily exploited.
Rage Demon: NO, THEIR RAGE WILL BE.
Desire Demon: Is that what you think? I doubt they'll be fascinated with your... looks.
Rage Demon: THEY WON'T CARE HOW I'LL LOOK, THEY ARE MORE INTERESTED IN THE POWER.
Desire Demon: Is that why you're lower than me on the demon food chain?
Pride Demon: Is that pride I hear? 
Sloth Demon: Will you all shut up? I'm trying to sleep here.

[HopHazzard]

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

Mages aren't trying to take people's freedom. They do seem to be willing to take lives to obtain their own freedom, and really I can't blame them. This war was always going to happen. The mages lived under a system they considered intolerable and the chantry's repsonse was to kill or tranquilize anyone who complained too loudly. Compromise was never an option. In order for any kind of peaceful solution to occur the chantry would have to admit that the current system was broken and needed to be changed. If you suggest that to Cullen his answer is that the templars need to try harder to teach mages why they deserve their fate and then they'll all stop complaining about how unfairly they're being treated. That's not a position the mages can negotiate from.

Killing innocent people is the same as taing away their freedom.
If i were a mage i would join them too up until the point where they kill innocents to acheive their ends. Anders beleived that too once.

I don't equate life with freedom. It's entirely possible to be alive and not be free. If a peaceful solution is not possible the answer is not to do nothing. If people are living under an oppressive regime they have the right (some would even say the duty) to rebel. If that means innocent people get caught in the crossfire then so be it. Is it regrettable? Yes. But sometimes there's a difference between what's right and what's necessary.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Knight of Dane wrote...
It seems that we agree. War is horrible but sometimes unavoidable. I beleive that innocents should be spared for harm, but i also beleive in fighting for your freedom as long as it doesn't hurt those that doesn't oppose it directly. That is it.

Well then my question is... what innocents do you think Anders harmed?

It's an honest question. The only people we see die in that explosion are Elthina (Meredith's direct commander) and some Templars (enemy soldiers.) We don't know for sure that anyone else died in it.

Now, you can assume that some chantry brothers and sisters died in the explosion, but they were also members of an organization that was directly opposing mage freedom. We have no evidence that the blast killed anyone who wasn't a member of the chantry. Are you just assuming that it did, when you say that Anders killed innocents?

[FieryDove]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

 Do you just submit to the demands of any tyrant who threatens to murder you, in the hopes of maintaining peace?

Never.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

[HopHazzard]

Vicious wrote...

Compromise was never an option.

Funny you say that, but Anders can almost be convinced that Compromise *IS* an option before Justice takes over, and if you rival him, he helps you annul the circle to prevent the War that should never have been started in the first place.


So... what's the war for. Free Mages? Mages Eliminated? Neither is possible because Mages will always exist and the Templars [or people who fight the Mages] will exist too.

So who's the winner? The demons, who get to enjoy a war that is highly likely to sunder the veil across the world.

This war was always going to happen. These tensions have been building since the founding of the chantry. If the situation in Kirkwall had been contained it would have happened some place else. Maybe not right away, but eventually. The unrest was not limited to Kirkwall.

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well then my question is... what innocents do you think Anders harmed?

Elthina, Templar, Priests, Clerics, Initiates, Affirmed.

"Guilty by association" is extremely ironic when the same excuse can be used to kill every mage on Thedas.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 10:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well then my question is... what innocents do you think Anders harmed?

Elthina, Templar, Priests, Clerics, Initiates, Affirmed.

"Guilty by association" is extremely ironic when the same excuse can be used to kill every mage on Thedas.

Elthina wasn't guilty by association. She was criminally negligent and bore a definite part of the responsibility for the abuses of the Gallows.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Elthina wasn't guilty by association. She was criminally negligent and bore a definite part of the responsibility for the abuses of the Gallows.

I blame Orsino for the abuses of the Gallows, Elthina was the only person keeping his stupidity in check.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well then my question is... what innocents do you think Anders harmed?

Elthina, Templar, Priests, Clerics, Initiates, Affirmed.

"Guilty by association" is extremely ironic when the same excuse can be used to kill every mage on Thedas.

I'm not saying they're guilty by association.

I'm saying they're part of an international governmental organization that is actively oppressing a people. There's a difference there.

It's like killing someone who is part of the supply chain in an enemy military force. Even if that guy has never fired a gun, he's delivering food and ammo to the people who are firing guns. If you kill him, you prevent the people who are firing guns from firing the guns. It's all a normal part of an armed conflict.

Elthina is a high-ranking member of a military institution that has instituted (and continues to enforce with violence) an international policy of forced internment lasting for centuries. If that doesn't make her a military target, then I don't know what could make anyone in the universe a military target.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 10:16 .

[Nimrodell]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Vicious wrote...

So who's the winner? The demons, who get to enjoy a war that is highly likely to sunder the veil across the world.

"The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."
Desire Demon: Excellent, their desire for freedom will be easily exploited.
Rage Demon: NO, THEIR RAGE WILL BE.
Desire Demon: Is that what you think? I doubt they'll be fascinated with your... looks.
Rage Demon: THEY WON'T CARE HOW I'LL LOOK, THEY ARE MORE INTERESTED IN THE POWER.
Desire Demon: Is that why you're lower than me on the demon food chain?
Pride Demon: Is that pride I hear? 
Sloth Demon: Will you all shut up? I'm trying to sleep here.

Oh Dave, don't do Maelon here... as dr Mordin Solus would tell you - supposition!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nimrodell wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Vicious wrote...

So who's the winner? The demons, who get to enjoy a war that is highly likely to sunder the veil across the world.

"The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."
Desire Demon: Excellent, their desire for freedom will be easily exploited.
Rage Demon: NO, THEIR RAGE WILL BE.
Desire Demon: Is that what you think? I doubt they'll be fascinated with your... looks.
Rage Demon: THEY WON'T CARE HOW I'LL LOOK, THEY ARE MORE INTERESTED IN THE POWER.
Desire Demon: Is that why you're lower than me on the demon food chain?
Pride Demon: Is that pride I hear? 
Sloth Demon: Will you all shut up? I'm trying to sleep here.

Oh Dave, don't do Maelon here... as dr Mordin Solus would tell you - supposition!

Indeed.

If the Templars really cared about preventing demon attacks resulting from the war, they wouldn't answer the circle uprisings with violence. It takes two to tango.

If the Templars let all the mages leave quietly and then worked to establish a peaceful civil police force in cooperation with the former Aequitarians to patrol the countryside and deal with blood mages and abominations, we wouldn't need to have a war.

Which, granted, may be what Cassie tries to do if she smartens up.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 10:20 .

[0x30A88]

I loved Awakening anders as he wasn't all serious. but DA2 Anders. He might have killed a templar or two in the chantry, but what about those around the building, innocents within, ...

Let him live... or
'runscript addtalent 18301' on Bethany (can't remember if it's the right number)

I chose the latter.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 21 août 2011 - 10:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not saying they're guilty by association.

I'm saying they're part of an international governmental organization that is actively oppressing a people. There's a difference there.

Which deserve to be oppressed.

If there's a prison riot and the guards are killed by the rioters, nobody says "Oh, they were oppressing them. They deserved to die. The person feeding them? Deserves to die too, they were working for the guard. Oh, the librarian? He deserves to die too, he was allowing them to read.".

[CulturalGeekGirl]

If the Chantry explosion did indeed cause collatoral damage, I wish they would have given us conclusive proof of that fact. So many of these arguments involve one side taking as absolutely true that a decent number of non-chantry-personnel died as a direct result of the explosion. I'm not saying that I'm sure nobody else died, but if we were meant to make that assumption, I wish we had been shown it directly or seen a line of text ANYWHERE that confirmed it.

[FieryDove]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not saying they're guilty by association.

I'm saying they're part of an international governmental organization that is actively oppressing a people. There's a difference there.

Which deserve to be oppressed.

If there's a prison riot and the guards are killed by the rioters, nobody says "Oh, they were oppressing them. They deserved to die. The person feeding them? Deserves to die too, they were working for the guard. Oh, the librarian? He deserves to die too, he was allowing them to read.".

You are Fenris yes?

All mages are criminals!

Or even more with Chantry love:
All elves are criminals/worship false *gods*!

Sigh I give up.

Modifié par FieryDove, 21 août 2011 - 10:32 .

[ipgd]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Which deserve to be oppressed.

If there's a prison riot and the guards are killed by the rioters, nobody says "Oh, they were oppressing them. They deserved to die. The person feeding them? Deserves to die too, they were working for the guard. Oh, the librarian? He deserves to die too, he was allowing them to read.".

Not really the same thing, given that convicted criminals held in prisons have actually been proven in a court of law to have commited crimes, and most Circle mages' only crime was to be born into a group judged as more likely to commit crime.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not saying they're guilty by association.

I'm saying they're part of an international governmental organization that is actively oppressing a people. There's a difference there.

Which deserve to be oppressed.

If there's a prison riot and the guards are killed by the rioters, nobody says "Oh, they were oppressing them. They deserved to die. The person feeding them? Deserves to die too, they were working for the guard. Oh, the librarian? He deserves to die too, he was allowing them to read.".

In a prison, every person there has been found guilty of a crime. This isn't a prison, it's an internment camp, where a people are being kept because they are considered potentially dangerous in the future. There's a distinct difference there.

I mean, let's look at murder statistics in the US by gender: Men commit 88% of homicides. Should we jail all men because they're obviously more dangerous than women? Should we lobotomize any man who displays anger issues, because he's obviously so much more dangerous than a "normal" person (eg, a woman.)

Obviously, that's completely ridiculous. But you're arguing that any minority who is more dangerous than average should be imprisoned and have no more rights than the average criminal simply because they are more likely to harm someone. So... males between the ages of, say 17 and 55?  Wouldn't the world be much safer if they were all in camps? Maybe! Should we do that? No, what's wrong with you?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 10:36 .

[Knight of Dane]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
It seems that we agree. War is horrible but sometimes unavoidable. I beleive that innocents should be spared for harm, but i also beleive in fighting for your freedom as long as it doesn't hurt those that doesn't oppose it directly. That is it.

Well then my question is... what innocents do you think Anders harmed?

It's an honest question. The only people we see die in that explosion are Elthina (Meredith's direct commander) and some Templars (enemy soldiers.) We don't know for sure that anyone else died in it.

Now, you can assume that some chantry brothers and sisters died in the explosion, but they were also members of an organization that was directly opposing mage freedom. We have no evidence that the blast killed anyone who wasn't a member of the chantry. Are you just assuming that it did, when you say that Anders killed innocents?

As i asid in my other posts, the chantry is a safe institution to many of the general public. They are crippled in their faith and in their beleif that they are safe.
Anders hamrs many more than just a cleric and a few templars.

[Knight of Dane]

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

Mages aren't trying to take people's freedom. They do seem to be willing to take lives to obtain their own freedom, and really I can't blame them. This war was always going to happen. The mages lived under a system they considered intolerable and the chantry's repsonse was to kill or tranquilize anyone who complained too loudly. Compromise was never an option. In order for any kind of peaceful solution to occur the chantry would have to admit that the current system was broken and needed to be changed. If you suggest that to Cullen his answer is that the templars need to try harder to teach mages why they deserve their fate and then they'll all stop complaining about how unfairly they're being treated. That's not a position the mages can negotiate from.

Killing innocent people is the same as taing away their freedom.
If i were a mage i would join them too up until the point where they kill innocents to acheive their ends. Anders beleived that too once.

I don't equate life with freedom. It's entirely possible to be alive and not be free. If a peaceful solution is not possible the answer is not to do nothing. If people are living under an oppressive regime they have the right (some would even say the duty) to rebel. If that means innocent people get caught in the crossfire then so be it. Is it regrettable? Yes. But sometimes there's a difference between what's right and what's necessary.

Then you miss out on a whole lot of life.
I never said they should do nothing, only stupid people equate peace to nothing.

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If the Chantry explosion did indeed cause collatoral damage, I wish
they would have given us conclusive proof of that fact.

Considering how smaller Chantries are filled with priests, affirmed and such. You can assume there was more of that in the largest Chantry around. Reading the Chantry Hierachy gives a good idea of who exactly (probably) died.

FieryDove wrote...

You are Fenris yes?

Na, though I pretty much agree with him on almost everything.

ipgd wrote...

Not really the same thing, given that
convicted criminals held in prisons have actually been proven in a
court of law to have commited crimes, and most Circle mages' only crime
was to be born into a group judged as more likely to commit crime.

I know it's not really the same thing, though there's no real world comparison that really fits. It's like saying "If children were built and they had a chance of exploding, killing everybody around them. Would you approve of letting them walk the streets filled with people or would you rather seal them off and contain the damage?", it doesn't really work for multiple reasons.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I mean, let's look at murder statistics in the US by gender: Men commit
88% of homicides. Should we jail all men because they're obviously more
dangerous than women? Should we lobotomize any man who displays anger
issues, because he's obviously so much more dangerous than a
"normal" person (eg, a woman. The majority of people are women, after
all. Why should we allow a dangerous minority to roam around free?)

If men could turn into abominations, mind control people, summon demons and raise the dead? I'd approve of sealing them off, I'd be locked away myself but I'd be provided for with food, education, housing and clothing. Add this in Thedas and it isn't that bad of a deal when you're thinking the average ****hole and lifestyle that non-mages live in.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 10:37 .

[HopHazzard]

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

Mages aren't trying to take people's freedom. They do seem to be willing to take lives to obtain their own freedom, and really I can't blame them. This war was always going to happen. The mages lived under a system they considered intolerable and the chantry's repsonse was to kill or tranquilize anyone who complained too loudly. Compromise was never an option. In order for any kind of peaceful solution to occur the chantry would have to admit that the current system was broken and needed to be changed. If you suggest that to Cullen his answer is that the templars need to try harder to teach mages why they deserve their fate and then they'll all stop complaining about how unfairly they're being treated. That's not a position the mages can negotiate from.

Killing innocent people is the same as taing away their freedom.
If i were a mage i would join them too up until the point where they kill innocents to acheive their ends. Anders beleived that too once.

I don't equate life with freedom. It's entirely possible to be alive and not be free. If a peaceful solution is not possible the answer is not to do nothing. If people are living under an oppressive regime they have the right (some would even say the duty) to rebel. If that means innocent people get caught in the crossfire then so be it. Is it regrettable? Yes. But sometimes there's a difference between what's right and what's necessary.

Then you miss out on a whole lot of life.
I never said they should do nothing, only stupid people equate peace to nothing.

What's the option then? If the people opressing you won't negotiate to change your circumstances and you can't embrace violence for fear of harming innocents, what can you do?

[FieryDove]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If the Chantry explosion did indeed cause collatoral damage, I wish
they would have given us conclusive proof of that fact.

Considering how smaller Chantries are filled with priests, affirmed and such. You can assume there was more of that in the largest Chantry around. Reading the Chantry Hierachy gives a good idea of who exactly (probably) died.

If we are guessing...

Since they know war or something unpleasant is brewing they have many bodyguards surrounding Elthina as shown in the Boom cutscene. Agree so far? Go to #2. If not ignore post?

#2. Since we agree one would think all lay people and others would be evacuated.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I mean, let's look at murder statistics in the US by gender: Men commit
88% of homicides. Should we jail all men because they're obviously more
dangerous than women? Should we lobotomize any man who displays anger
issues, because he's obviously so much more dangerous than a
"normal" person (eg, a woman. The majority of people are women, after
all. Why should we allow a dangerous minority to roam around free?)

If men could turn into abominations, mind control people, summon demons and raise the dead? I'd approve of sealing them off, I'd be locked away myself but I'd be provided for with food, education, housing and clothing. Add this in Thedas and it isn't that bad of a deal when you're thinking the average ****hole and lifestyle that non-mages live in.

Men can take a machine gun and kill as many people as an abomination, easily. They've done it a bunch of times. The biggest abomination death count we've ever seen is something like... 70 or so? Over the course of several years?

Also, remember that you would be forbidden to marry, have children, contact your family, communicate with the outside world, and you would be subject to rape, lobotomization, execution without public trial, solitary confinement, and beatings for offenses as minor as trying to speak with another human being or send a letter to a relative. These are all things we know with complete certainty happen in the circle without their perpetrators being punished in any way.

And in Dalish society, all the stuff you're saying will happen? Seems to almost never happen. I wonder why that is? Could it be because when you abuse prisoners or have an overly punitive system, it causes more violence than it alleviates?

There is no evidence that the current system of mage imprisonment reduces the number of abominations or mage-related deaths. Absolutely none. In fact, we've only seen out-of-control abominations in chantry-controlled countries. We've never even heard of that happening among the Dalish, or in the old Dales.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 10:46 .

[ipgd]

As I've said before, The Circle needs to be Hogwarts but they've got nothing but Azkabans. Mages certainly need some degree of regulation, but the way the Circle is now isn't really acceptable. It needs to be thoroughly reformed or replaced -- and judging by the current state of the Circles, that wasn't going to happen peacefully.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ipgd wrote...

As I've said before, The Circle needs to be Hogwarts but they've got nothing but Azkabans. Mages certainly need some degree of regulation, but the way the Circle is now isn't really acceptable. It needs to be thoroughly reformed or replaced -- and judging by the current state of the Circles, that wasn't going to happen peacefully.

Indeed, even Anders argues for a system of mage training, just one overseen by mages. I'd only elaborate on that by having the system be monitored by a dwarf/elf oversight committee, because those people seem more capable of impartiality than the Chantry.

Maybe have some non-Chantry-affiliated people with templar abilities (like Alistair) to be called in when the Elf/Dwarf monitoring committee thinks it's necessary?

Basically, if the Chantry itself wants to be considered off limits for attacks, they should get themselves out of the military and government business, and just be a religion. I want to help them do that. Because I'm a giver.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 10:54 .