203 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There is no evidence that the current system of mage imprisonment reduces the number of abominations or mage-related deaths. Absolutely none. In fact, we've only seen out-of-control abominations in chantry-controlled countries. We've never even heard of that happening among the Dalish, or in the old Dales.

And from what we've heard of Tevinter, even, it doesn't sound like it's chaos up there. That mages are able to keep a stable power structure suggests that they aren't turning into hideous monsters at every turn. Rivain also seems to have free mages and no problem with them dominating the government.

[Dave of Canada]

[quote]CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The biggest abomination death count we've ever seen is something like... 70 or so? Over the course of several years?[/quote]

Meredith's sister, an untrained mage who was possessed, managed to kill 70 villagers before finally being killed by trained professionals who've been trained for years on how to handle abominations. It wasn't several years.

This doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.

[quote]Also, remember that you would be forbidden to marry,[/quote]

Mages don't care about marriage with the lifestyle they live, they don't care about longterm relationships.

[quote]have children,[/quote]

Read the above.

[quote]contact your family,[/quote]

False, look at Finn / Connor / Bethany.

[quote]communicate with the outside world,[/quote]

False, otherwise the Lucrosians would serve no purpose in the Circle and there wouldn't be any mages with dwarven contacts in Orzammar.

[quote]and you would be subject to rape[/quote]

Just like everybody else on Thedas.

[quote]lobotomization[/quote]

Don't break the rules.

[quote]execution without public trial[/quote]

Just like everybody else on Thedas.

[quote]solitary confinement[/quote]

Don't break the rules.

[quote]and beatings for offenses as minor as trying to speak with another human being[/quote]

Don't break the rules.

[quote]or send a letter to a relative.[/quote]

Except we've got letters from the Circle.

[quote]These are all things we know with complete certainty happen in the circle without their perpetrators being punished in any way.[/quote]

Just like everywhere else on Thedas, your point? This isn't happy funland modern society Thedas.

[quote]And in Dalish society, all the stuff you're saying will happen?[/quote]

Except it does?

[quote]There is no evidence that mage imprisonment reduces the number of abominations or mage-related deaths. Absolutely none.
[/quote]

It keeps them contained from the normal people, that's all that matters. Ferelden's Circle was destroyed by abominations, how many people outside of the Circle died? None, the people who died were mages and the Templar. The average citizen doesn't know he was close to having a bad day.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I mean, let's look at murder statistics in the US by gender: Men commit 88% of homicides. Should we jail all men because they're obviously more dangerous than women? Should we lobotomize any man who displays anger issues, because he's obviously so much more dangerous than a "normal" person (eg, a woman.)

No because it's logistically impossible, and a phenomenal waste of manpower and consummers.

Herein lies the core of the matter. Mages do not give the impression that they are useful enough (for many reasons, some outside their control), barring the war with the Qunari that is centuries old (people have bad and short memories). Rights should be in exchange for duties, and not for free.

Hence why the Lucrosians are probably the wisest Fraternity.

[Knight of Dane]

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

Mages aren't trying to take people's freedom. They do seem to be willing to take lives to obtain their own freedom, and really I can't blame them. This war was always going to happen. The mages lived under a system they considered intolerable and the chantry's repsonse was to kill or tranquilize anyone who complained too loudly. Compromise was never an option. In order for any kind of peaceful solution to occur the chantry would have to admit that the current system was broken and needed to be changed. If you suggest that to Cullen his answer is that the templars need to try harder to teach mages why they deserve their fate and then they'll all stop complaining about how unfairly they're being treated. That's not a position the mages can negotiate from.

Killing innocent people is the same as taing away their freedom.
If i were a mage i would join them too up until the point where they kill innocents to acheive their ends. Anders beleived that too once.

I don't equate life with freedom. It's entirely possible to be alive and not be free. If a peaceful solution is not possible the answer is not to do nothing. If people are living under an oppressive regime they have the right (some would even say the duty) to rebel. If that means innocent people get caught in the crossfire then so be it. Is it regrettable? Yes. But sometimes there's a difference between what's right and what's necessary.

Then you miss out on a whole lot of life.
I never said they should do nothing, only stupid people equate peace to nothing.

What's the option then? If the people opressing you won't negotiate to change your circumstances and you can't embrace violence for fear of harming innocents, what can you do?

Go away, start anew somewhere else, violence should always be a last solution.

[KnightofPhoenix]

dp

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 août 2011 - 11:02 .

[Dave of Canada]

ipgd wrote...

And from what we've heard of Tevinter, even, it doesn't sound like it's chaos up there.

They still have the Circles, Children are taken away by their parents and sent to the Circle to learn. The only difference, once they've learned they're set loose and forced in a magister's service or forced to be forgotten. Templar still prowl everywhere, they're just in the mage's pockets instead.

"Freedom" is a loose term for average mages in Tevinter.

Rivain also seems to have free mages and no problem with them dominating the government.

Rivain also deals with abominations like it was a natural disaster, they bury the dead and rebuild damages. Not everybody finds this acceptable.

[Eollodwyn]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I mean, let's look at murder statistics in the US by gender: Men commit
88% of homicides. Should we jail all men because they're obviously more
dangerous than women? Should we lobotomize any man who displays anger
issues, because he's obviously so much more dangerous than a
"normal" person (eg, a woman. The majority of people are women, after
all. Why should we allow a dangerous minority to roam around free?)

If men could turn into abominations, mind control people, summon demons and raise the dead? I'd approve of sealing them off, I'd be locked away myself but I'd be provided for with food, education, housing and clothing. Add this in Thedas and it isn't that bad of a deal when you're thinking the average ****hole and lifestyle that non-mages live in.

Men can take a machine gun and kill as many people as an abomination, easily. They've done it a bunch of times. The biggest abomination death count we've ever seen is something like... 70 or so? Over the course of several years?

Also, remember that you would be forbidden to marry, have children, contact your family, communicate with the outside world, and you would be subject to rape, lobotomization, execution without public trial, solitary confinement, and beatings for offenses as minor as trying to speak with another human being or send a letter to a relative. These are all things we know with complete certainty happen in the circle without their perpetrators being punished in any way.

And in Dalish society, all the stuff you're saying will happen? Seems to almost never happen. I wonder why that is? Could it be because when you abuse prisoners or have an overly punitive system, it causes more violence than it alleviates?

There is no evidence that the current system of mage imprisonment reduces the number of abominations or mage-related deaths. Absolutely none. In fact, we've only seen out-of-control abominations in chantry-controlled countries. We've never even heard of that happening among the Dalish, or in the old Dales.

I could be remembering wrong, but doesn't Rivain have similar system?  They have no Circle and treat their mages with respect and they don't seem to have a problem.  So of the three societies that treat their mages with respect (Dalish, Rivain, and Tevinter) only one has a problem with out of control mages.

EDIT: Oh, ipgd beat me to it.  That's what I get for being a slow typer.

Modifié par Eollodwyn, 21 août 2011 - 11:01 .

[ipgd]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mages don't care about marriage with the lifestyle they live, they don't care about longterm relationships.

have children,

Read the above.

waitwut.jpg

Mages ain't all the same diggitydawg.

[HopHazzard]

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I don't have enough knowledge about the American Civil war, but fighting for your right is always ok as long as it doesn't hurt innocents.

The Templar/Mage thingy might have lead to war anyway eventually, i bet it would, but because you face a bad scenario doesn't mean you shouldn't press for a peacefull solution.

Solution being a key word.

We can both agree that the state as it is now for mages isn't a solution, when i say it should be done peacefully it only goes as far as not killing innocents. In war you either win or loose and you fight what you are up against, but civilians are not a opponent as long as they do not threaten your life with wood sticks and scythes.

The mages should have their freedom, but they should not have it by taking away someone elses.

Mages aren't trying to take people's freedom. They do seem to be willing to take lives to obtain their own freedom, and really I can't blame them. This war was always going to happen. The mages lived under a system they considered intolerable and the chantry's repsonse was to kill or tranquilize anyone who complained too loudly. Compromise was never an option. In order for any kind of peaceful solution to occur the chantry would have to admit that the current system was broken and needed to be changed. If you suggest that to Cullen his answer is that the templars need to try harder to teach mages why they deserve their fate and then they'll all stop complaining about how unfairly they're being treated. That's not a position the mages can negotiate from.

Killing innocent people is the same as taing away their freedom.
If i were a mage i would join them too up until the point where they kill innocents to acheive their ends. Anders beleived that too once.

I don't equate life with freedom. It's entirely possible to be alive and not be free. If a peaceful solution is not possible the answer is not to do nothing. If people are living under an oppressive regime they have the right (some would even say the duty) to rebel. If that means innocent people get caught in the crossfire then so be it. Is it regrettable? Yes. But sometimes there's a difference between what's right and what's necessary.

Then you miss out on a whole lot of life.
I never said they should do nothing, only stupid people equate peace to nothing.

What's the option then? If the people opressing you won't negotiate to change your circumstances and you can't embrace violence for fear of harming innocents, what can you do?

Go away, start anew somewhere else, violence should always be a last solution.

And the templars are just going to let the mages walk out of the gallows and form their own society somewhere else? I agree that violence should always be the last solution. I'm disagreeing with your contention that the mages aren't there yet.

[Eollodwyn]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Go away, start anew somewhere else, violence should always be a last solution.

Except that mages are never given that option. 

[Dave of Canada]

ipgd wrote...

waitwut.jpg

Mages ain't all the same diggitydawg.

It's the lifestyle they're raised with in the Circles, there's possibly exceptions but their just that; exceptions.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 11:06 .

[Dave of Canada]

Eollodwyn wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Go away, start anew somewhere else, violence should always be a last solution.

Except that mages are never given that option. 

Except they do. Each fraternity and enchanter gathered at Cumberland to discuss possibly seperating from the Chantry, Wynne was going herself and was saying it could lead to a disaster. Know what happened? Absolutely nothing, therefore the mages argued against seperation.

Anders forcing them to seperate is essentially doing what the mages just voted didn't want.

[KnightofPhoenix]

To be fair, the Cumberland conference was 5-6 years before what Anders did. It's very possible that the opinion of mages started to shift. Particularly because the Chantry, in its incompetence, thinks having Meredith around is a good idea.

[HopHazzard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Go away, start anew somewhere else, violence should always be a last solution.

Except that mages are never given that option. 

Except they do. Each fraternity and enchanter gathered at Cumberland to discuss possibly seperating from the Chantry, Wynne was going herself and was saying it could lead to a disaster. Know what happened? Absolutely nothing, therefore the mages argued against seperation.

Anders forcing them to seperate is essentially doing what the mages just voted didn't want.

Yes, it's an option. But it's not a peaceful one. The reason Wynne was against it was because it would mean war with the chantry.

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To be fair, the Cumberland conference was 5-6 years before what Anders did. It's very possible that the opinion of mages started to shift. Particularly because the Chantry, in its incompetence, thinks having Meredith around is a good idea.

I doubt Meredith's actions impacted the Circles everywhere in Act 3 (Anders killing the Grand Cleric probably made the Templar shut down on them hard, though), though you do have a fair point. Ferelden's Circle, when "freed", is considered worse off than the Kirkwall Circle and there's no doubt they'd probably feel bitter about the Chantry too.

Their opinions might've shifted after the big-boom.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 11:16 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Go away, start anew somewhere else, violence should always be a last solution.

Except that mages are never given that option. 

Except they do. Each fraternity and enchanter gathered at Cumberland to discuss possibly seperating from the Chantry, Wynne was going herself and was saying it could lead to a disaster. Know what happened? Absolutely nothing, therefore the mages argued against seperation.

Anders forcing them to seperate is essentially doing what the mages just voted didn't want.

Varric explicitly says that the Circles rose up because they were inspired by what happened, not because they were forced to separate. Edit: here's the quote, from the Templar ending even: 

"Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied. The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."

That sounds like the mages made their own decision, based on news about what happened in Kirkwall. Are you claiming that Varric is lying about that for some reason? And Cassandra doens't call him on it, despite the fact that she lived through it and is standing right there?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 11:18 .

[ipgd]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It's the lifestyle they're raised with in the Circles, there's possibly exceptions but their just that; exceptions.

Or more likely the habits of adolescent and young adult mages.

Having lax attitudes about promiscuity and monogamy also does not preclude a desire to have serious relationships. You can, in fact, have all of the above !!!!!

[Eollodwyn]

HopHazzard wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Go away, start anew somewhere else, violence should always be a last solution.

Except that mages are never given that option. 

Except they do. Each fraternity and enchanter gathered at Cumberland to discuss possibly seperating from the Chantry, Wynne was going herself and was saying it could lead to a disaster. Know what happened? Absolutely nothing, therefore the mages argued against seperation.

Anders forcing them to seperate is essentially doing what the mages just voted didn't want.

Yes, it's an option. But it's not a peaceful one. The reason Wynne was against it was because it would mean war with the chantry.

Also, if you ask for the Mage Boon in Origins, the Chantry refuses to grant it.  So, really, mages are never given a choice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To be fair, the Cumberland conference was 5-6 years before what Anders did. It's very possible that the opinion of mages started to shift. Particularly because the Chantry, in its incompetence, thinks having Meredith around is a good idea.

I doubt Meredith's actions impacted the Circles everywhere in Act 3 (Anders killing the Grand Cleric probably made the Templar shut down on them hard, though), though you do have a fair point. Ferelden's Circle, when "freed", is considered worse off than the Kirkwall Circle and there's no doubt they'd probably feel bitter about the Chantry too.

Their opinions might've shifted afterward the big-boom.

Meredith's moronic iron fist was being felt for 6 years, and it was gradually worsening. Kirkwall was the most important circle, so I think all eyes were fixed on it (barring those of the Chantry apparently). I think the fact that common folk started to sympathize with mages and that Templars are being more and more heavy handed, had at least some impact in mage opinion. 

And what do you mean the Ferelden circle is worse off than Kirkwall? 

And oh absolutely the big boom is probably what caused the violent shift, but I also believe the shift in opinion was gradually taking place. It needed one push to accelerate it and make it blow. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 août 2011 - 11:20 .

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Varric explicitly says that the Circles rose up because they were inspired by what happened, not because they were forced to separate. (I'll go look for the quote).

Circles rising would also happen to involve some of the Aequitarians, Loyalists and Isolationists to become involved in a war the majority of the fraternity might not be interested in. I'd mention the Lucrosians too, depending how they see profit being hurt by this war (Profit which would serve no purpose if the mages were as sealed off to the outside world as you believe).

ipgd wrote...

Having
lax attitudes about promiscuity and monogamy also does not preclude a
desire to have serious relationships. You can, in fact, have all of the
above !!!!!

I didn't say they didn't exist, I said they were the exeception. Gaider himself stated that the average mage isn't interested in serious relationships.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 11:22 .

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meredith's moronic iron fist was being felt for 6 years, and it was gradually worsening.

To be honest, I felt Meredith wasn't that bad for the first six or so years. She'd spare Blood Mages (while they should've been executed by Chantry law) and she'd leave potential threats in the Circle, I think she just developed worse and worse (pre-idol) because she had to deal with two Circles at once (Starkhaven and Kirkwall Circles being locked away in the Gallows seems a little bit too much, logically I'd distribute them around rather then stuff them in an already-bad place) and because mages kept pushing her, forcing her to push back and make her look more like the villain.

It's unfortunately poorly presented Cause and Effect, unfortunately.

And what do you mean the Ferelden circle is worse off than Kirkwall?

Decided to import my Magi Origin who freed the Circle, this resulted in people saying it'll end badly and such. Went to the Kirkwall Circle and heard a few mages mention that they atleast weren't in Ferelden's Circle. Leliana also mentions something bad happened in Ferelden, which Gaider said will be explored later.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 11:28 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Varric explicitly says that the Circles rose up because they were inspired by what happened, not because they were forced to separate. (I'll go look for the quote).

Circles rising would also happen to involve some of the Aequitarians, Loyalists and Isolationists to become involved in a war the majority of the fraternity might not be interested in. I'd mention the Lucrosians too, depending how they see profit being hurt by this war (Profit which would serve no purpose if the mages were as sealed off to the outside world as you believe).

I... don't understand what you're saying here?

At first you were arguing that Anders forced them to separate. I bring up that Varric says that the Circles rose up because they were inspired by what happened in Kirkwall.  Your reply here amounts to "well maybe some of them still opposed it?" That's all I'm getting from your response, unless you have some solid evidence that when Varric says "The Circles rose up" he means "A minority of mages somehow forced the Circles into making a decision the majority disagreed with."

Varric's too good of a storyteller to do something muddy and confusing like that. If it were a minority forcing the hand of the majority, I trust him to tell us.

If you don't trust Varric to tell a story, though, that's fine. Some people don't like him. But I think you can trust his epilogue just as much as you can trust any of the rest of the main portions of the story. Unless you're claiming that we can't trust that anything we learned in the entire game is accurate because Varric is incapable of conveying information about world events.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[Knight of Dane]

HopHazzard wrote...
*snipped*

The mages are in a position where they are faced with fight for freedom or die, i never denied that.
My notion of always seeing peace applies to all, but it is not relevant when talking about the circle mages, the war has already broken out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...
To be honest, I felt Meredith wasn't that bad for the first six or so years. She'd spare Blood Mages (while they should've been executed by Chantry law) and she'd leave potential threats in the Circle, I think she just developed worse and worse (pre-idol) because she had to deal with two Circles at once (Starkhaven and Kirkwall Circles being locked away in the Gallows seems a little bit too much, logically I'd distribute them around rather then stuff them in an already-bad place) and because mages kept pushing her, forcing her to push back and make her look more like the villain.

Part of her incompetence is precisely sparing those that should not be spared, while punishing those who shouldn't be punished. Then you have her PR that is so bad that you have commoners spitting on Templar faces and assisting mages in the first time in history. You have blood mages roaming the city with her unable to do anything about it....etc Her career is far from being remotely decent imo.

That said, the greatest incompetence comes from the Chantry itself, in my eyes.  Their biggest mistake was in allowing a Templar takeover of the city, even before Dumar's death. 

And what do you mean the Ferelden circle is worse off than Kirkwall?

Decided to import my Magi Origin who freed the Circle, this resulted in people saying it'll end badly and such. Went to the Kirkwall Circle and heard a few mages mention that they atleast weren't in Ferelden's Circle. Leliana also mentions something bad happened in Ferelden, which Gaider said will be explored later.

Oh, that sounds interesting. Never knew they said that. 

They are probably referring to Chantry retaliation though. My impression at least. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 août 2011 - 11:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Varric's too good of a storyteller to do something muddy and confusing like that. 

Unless you're claiming that we can't trust that anything we learned in the entire game is accurate because Varric is incapable of conveying information about world events.

He (Bioware) did not convey A LOT of very crucial information about world events, yes. 
The only way this conflict build up would make sense to me is if we dismiss what Varric said as mostly uninformed hearsay or him sniffing lyrium. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 août 2011 - 11:40 .