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[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what do you mean the Ferelden circle is worse off than Kirkwall?

Decided to import my Magi Origin who freed the Circle, this resulted in people saying it'll end badly and such. Went to the Kirkwall Circle and heard a few mages mention that they atleast weren't in Ferelden's Circle. Leliana also mentions something bad happened in Ferelden, which Gaider said will be explored later.

Oh, that sounds interesting. Never knew they said that. 

It has been suggested that if you choose either the Dalish Boon or the Circle boon, the "thing that went horribly wrong" is a vicious chantry crackdown in response to either of these efforts.

I'm not saying that such a thing is in any way confirmed, but there's no way of knowing what exactly caused things to go wrong. Chantry intervention in opposition to the proposed sovergnity of a group they are actively opposed to is just as likely as anything else.

[Vicious]

Anders argues for Mage training and Mages overseeing Mages. Not a bad goal, but the lust for power is too much. Fenris confirms that Tevinter is pretty much back to where they were when Andraste rebelled, primarily because 'Mages watch Mages'.

They are both right and wrong. Which brings me to what Thrask says in the game... that it isn't supposed to be the way it is, it was supposed to be Mages standing against Demons and Templars protecting them. And in the beginning, it was probably a lot like that.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Vicious wrote...

Anders argues for Mage training and Mages overseeing Mages. Not a bad goal, but the lust for power is too much. Fenris confirms that Tevinter is pretty much back to where they were when Andraste rebelled, primarily because 'Mages watch Mages'.

They are both right and wrong. Which brings me to what Thrask says in the game... that it isn't supposed to be the way it is, it was supposed to be Mages standing against Demons and Templars protecting them. And in the beginning, it was probably a lot like that.

This is why I wish we had the ability to suggest an alternative solution. My Warden and my Hawke are both very pro mage (and very pro elf, but that's neither here nor there), but they'd also be the first to volunteer for a non-chantry-controlled mage oversight committee. Recruit a few Dwarves to lead the new task force (inborn magic resistance FTW. Also, Oghren can totally learn Templar skills. I'm just sayin'), and badaboom, you have a completely neutral force of lay policemen with templar abilities who don't need to be addicted to lyrium to do their job!

We're helping EVERYONE! Dusters get good jobs and beds and food! Mages get some friendly dwarves instead of brainwashed addicts! People like Alistair aren't being forceably pushed into a life of addiction and misery!

Here, let me show you my ten page long manifesto... wait, where are you going?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 11:50 .

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what do you mean the Ferelden circle is worse off than Kirkwall?

Decided to import my Magi Origin who freed the Circle, this resulted in people saying it'll end badly and such. Went to the Kirkwall Circle and heard a few mages mention that they atleast weren't in Ferelden's Circle. Leliana also mentions something bad happened in Ferelden, which Gaider said will be explored later.

Oh, that sounds interesting. Never knew they said that. 

They are probably referring to Chantry retaliation though. My impression at least. 

Effectively the people making references to the Ferelden Circle being horrible are because of the following.

1. They had an abomniation breakout --- we see this in Origins, and its due to Uldred trying to find a way to free the Circle from the Chantry and failing miserably. He sided with Loghain, who promised just that. When Ostiagar fell, he ran back to the circle, said the king was dead, all hail Loghain... except Wynne didn't die either, and being the Chantry-...lady of the night.. that she -is-, she said "NO THATS NOT WHAT HAPPENENDDDDDD" and Uldred panicked and... well, kaboom.

2. Everyone thinks -anywhere- is better then Ferelden. They just finshed a blight, for.. blights sake. On top of it Ferelden was -already- a backwater no-where full of half-savages and dog-lords. At least, according to everyone who doesn't live there. Half the land's blighted (Lothering, big chunks of the Bannorn). Denerim's pratically rubble, and even Amerantine may have been sacked. Its not a super fun place full of awesome to live.


Thus, when you import from a Mage Warden, you get comments about Ferelden, more mentiones of what happened at the Circle there (see: Cullen and wanderers). As a matter of fact, my Mage Warden had the circle annulled - and she was just as much anti-templar/chantry as Anders is ;p Beause of it, I got a couple different lines from Cullen and wandering mages about how it was so bad in Ferelden that the circle had to be annuled.

[HopHazzard]

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...
*snipped*

The mages are in a position where they are faced with fight for freedom or die, i never denied that.
My notion of always seeing peace applies to all, but it is not relevant when talking about the circle mages, the war has already broken out.

Then what have we been talking about? I was under the impression we were arguing over whether or not a peaceful solution was possible?

[Sepewrath]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
This is why I wish we had the ability to suggest an alternative solution. My Warden and my Hawke are both very pro mage (and very pro elf, but that's neither here nor there), but they'd also be the first to volunteer for a non-chantry-controlled mage oversight committee. Recruit a few Dwarves to lead the new task force (inborn magic resistance FTW. Also, Oghren can totally learn Templar skills. I'm just sayin'), and badaboom, you have a completely neutral force of lay policemen with templar abilities who don't need to be addicted to lyrium to do their job!

We're helping EVERYONE! Dusters get good jobs and beds and food! Mages get some friendly dwarves instead of brainwashed addicts! People like Alistair aren't being forceably pushed into a life of addiction and misery!

Here, let me show you my ten page long manifesto... wait, where are you going?

Haha that would be great in the land of sunshine and rainbows, but as we can see Thedas is far from that, it always just a day away from collapse. Your crazy manifesto would only speed things along lol.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Sepewrath wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
This is why I wish we had the ability to suggest an alternative solution. My Warden and my Hawke are both very pro mage (and very pro elf, but that's neither here nor there), but they'd also be the first to volunteer for a non-chantry-controlled mage oversight committee. Recruit a few Dwarves to lead the new task force (inborn magic resistance FTW. Also, Oghren can totally learn Templar skills. I'm just sayin'), and badaboom, you have a completely neutral force of lay policemen with templar abilities who don't need to be addicted to lyrium to do their job!

We're helping EVERYONE! Dusters get good jobs and beds and food! Mages get some friendly dwarves instead of brainwashed addicts! People like Alistair aren't being forceably pushed into a life of addiction and misery!

Here, let me show you my ten page long manifesto... wait, where are you going?

Haha that would be great in the land of sunshine and rainbows, but as we can see Thedas is far from that, it always just a day away from collapse. Your crazy manifesto would only speed things along lol.

Well, my manifesto is ten pages long, so the whole thing isnt sunshine and rainbows. For one, it also involves establishing diplomatic relations with every major nation that Orlais has messed with in the past few decades. Can they really stand against the combined objections of Nevarra, Ferelden, and Rivain? What if Nevarra fielded a new Divine, and everybody but Orlais said "Sure, why not, that's the new Divine!" We could even point out that this current Divine was appointed by extremely suspicious circumstances. I mean the previous Divine suddenly becomes ill, names someone random who isn't even a Grand Cleric the new Divine, and then promptly dies? Suspicious much?

Hell, I could accomplish the exact same thing with assassination and ventriloquism, and I already know a pretty good assassin.

/cough cough cough

Now, I think that some kind of War was gonna happen pretty much no matter what. I mean, Alistair basically tells you that Orlais seems to be seriously contemplating invading Ferelden again, and we know the kind of crap they pulled the last time they did that. They totally killed Loghain's dog. Also, his parents! Basically, screw those guys. And the Divine as she stands seems pretty deeply tied to Orlais itself, a jerk country that everyone hates. I think there's a good chance you could get the vast majority of elves to stand against Orlais as well. So just a little push and... you can see how it'd fall. Giant bloody war? Sure. But when I talked about my whole Duster-deal thing, I was more thinking about the reconstruction, rather than something that would prevent the war.

Somebody was gonna be fighting the Chantry and Orlais in DA3, though. The signs are everywhere.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 22 août 2011 - 12:31 .

[Cyne]

Myusha wrote...

 I just simply love Anders, his humor, his resolve, his goal, the way he does it...just bloody awesome. Even with Justice!

And mainly because, he's the only reason we survived the High Dragon.

Anders is great. I especially like how he gets when Justice takes over.

[Knight of Dane]

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...
*snipped*

The mages are in a position where they are faced with fight for freedom or die, i never denied that.
My notion of always seeing peace applies to all, but it is not relevant when talking about the circle mages, the war has already broken out.

Then what have we been talking about? I was under the impression we were arguing over whether or not a peaceful solution was possible?

I leave that to guesswork, what i was arguing was that Anders bomb was wrong and definetely denyed the mages any chance at a peaceful solution.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...
*snipped*

The mages are in a position where they are faced with fight for freedom or die, i never denied that.
My notion of always seeing peace applies to all, but it is not relevant when talking about the circle mages, the war has already broken out.

Then what have we been talking about? I was under the impression we were arguing over whether or not a peaceful solution was possible?

I leave that to guesswork, what i was arguing was that Anders bomb was wrong and definetely denyed the mages any chance at a peaceful solution.

But that's not what Varric's epilogue suggests: he suggests that mages in all of Thedas made a conscious decision to rebell based on the lessons illustrated by Kirkwall (unless you're talking about just the mages in the Kirkwall Circle itself).

If the mages outside of Kirkwall weren't upset by the atrocities in Kirkwall but calmly accepted the annulment (as they do if you annul the circle in Ferelden), then there wouldn't be a war. The war starts because this is the first time there has been evidence that an annulment was carried out without any real justification.

Without Hawke's intervention, Meredith could have made the Kirkwall annulment seem justified. You're basically arguing that if Meredith were simply allowed to cover up her crime, and annul the circle without Hawke getting involved, then that'd be preferable and there'd be no war.

If the mages never realized the templars were being horribly abusive and that resistance was possible, and simply submitted to the templar abuses for as long as it takes for a peaceful solution to somehow show up, then war could be prevented" It's the other mages' realization that the Chantry is being super-abusive that causes the war, not the bomb itself... that's what Varric's epilogue seems to say, anyway.

And if all elves did what you are suggesting the mages do: submit, not try to fight back, and just work peacefully with the Chantry... well then Merrill would have been taken to the circle when she was young, and executed the instant that she started using blood magic. Are you willing to allow Merrill to be executed if that keeps the peace? The Dalish have been essentially at war with the Chantry for centuries to save people like Merril. Are you saying that the Dalish should cease fighting the Chantry, turn over all their keepers to the circle, and go live in alienages?

Remember, as a blood mage, most people in Thedas would consider Merrill just as guilty of endangering and harming innocents as Anders is. If all mages peacefully cooperated with the circle, she would be executed. But the continuation of a system that would execute Merrill is preferable to a war that would save her, according to your argument that there's always a way to maintain peace. It's just that, right now, "peace" means allowing templars to tranquil or kill any mage they feel like accusing, including people like Merrill.

Would you truly allow the Templars to execute Merrill, if preventing it would cause a war?

Allowing the current "peace" to continue means allowing dozens or hundreds of Merrill's and Bethanys to be executed or annulled every year. When you actually consider them as individuals, when you realize that it could happen to someone you care about, that's when you realize that the "peace" isn't something worth preserving.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 22 août 2011 - 01:45 .

[HopHazzard]

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...
*snipped*

The mages are in a position where they are faced with fight for freedom or die, i never denied that.
My notion of always seeing peace applies to all, but it is not relevant when talking about the circle mages, the war has already broken out.

Then what have we been talking about? I was under the impression we were arguing over whether or not a peaceful solution was possible?

I leave that to guesswork, what i was arguing was that Anders bomb was wrong and definetely denyed the mages any chance at a peaceful solution.

And I was saying there was no peaceful solution. Had Anders not done what he had done, the violence just would have erupted in a different manner.

[DragonRacer]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well, my manifesto is ten pages long, so the whole thing isnt sunshine and rainbows. For one, it also involves establishing diplomatic relations with every major nation that Orlais has messed with in the past few decades. Can they really stand against the combined objections of Nevarra, Ferelden, and Rivain? What if Nevarra fielded a new Divine, and everybody but Orlais said "Sure, why not, that's the new Divine!" We could even point out that this current Divine was appointed by extremely suspicious circumstances. I mean the previous Divine suddenly becomes ill, names someone random who isn't even a Grand Cleric the new Divine, and then promptly dies? Suspicious much?

Hell, I could accomplish the exact same thing with assassination and ventriloquism, and I already know a pretty good assassin.

/cough cough cough

Now, I think that some kind of War was gonna happen pretty much no matter what. I mean, Alistair basically tells you that Orlais seems to be seriously contemplating invading Ferelden again, and we know the kind of crap they pulled the last time they did that. They totally killed Loghain's dog. Also, his parents! Basically, screw those guys. And the Divine as she stands seems pretty deeply tied to Orlais itself, a jerk country that everyone hates. I think there's a good chance you could get the vast majority of elves to stand against Orlais as well. So just a little push and... you can see how it'd fall. Giant bloody war? Sure. But when I talked about my whole Duster-deal thing, I was more thinking about the reconstruction, rather than something that would prevent the war.

Somebody was gonna be fighting the Chantry and Orlais in DA3, though. The signs are everywhere.

The more posts of yours that I read and nod my head fervently to, the more I really appreciate your insights and your eloquence in expressing them. I WANT YOU HERE 'TIL THE DAY WE DIE.

Also, duster-watched friendly mage communities FTW.

[Nimrodell]

@DragonRacer: Oh my, for you, sir, this. Hehe, this was cute .

[Sepewrath]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Well, my manifesto is ten pages long, so the whole thing isnt sunshine and rainbows. For one, it also involves establishing diplomatic relations with every major nation that Orlais has messed with in the past few decades. Can they really stand against the combined objections of Nevarra, Ferelden, and Rivain? What if Nevarra fielded a new Divine, and everybody but Orlais said "Sure, why not, that's the new Divine!" We could even point out that this current Divine was appointed by extremely suspicious circumstances. I mean the previous Divine suddenly becomes ill, names someone random who isn't even a Grand Cleric the new Divine, and then promptly dies? Suspicious much?

You know I was only kidding right? Well anyway, I will comment on this and I think Orlais could survive a weakned Ferelden, Nevarra and Rivain, particularly if they choose to hide behind the Chantry. Like I have said in another topic, a church with devoted followers are never lacking an army as indicated in DA2, when all those idiots attacked you. I couldn't imagine why Rivain and the elves would involve themselves, especially the latter as the last time they picked a side, they got screwed over in the end anyway.

And I don't think anyone would accept a Divine from Nevarra, the only reason people accept Justina is because Beatrix picked her and she went through the proper channels. Its suspicious because of her position, but she did the succession the normal way. I don't think many people would look the other way as Nevarra tried to take over the Chantry.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I just can't resist a chance to scheme openly. I like a good scheme.

Also there's some validity to the "rainbows" argument... I mean they can't give us a reasonable solution in a game where you're supposed to have to make a difficult moral choice, so none of this stuff could ever actually be done, but a girl can dream, can't she?

Now, while Justina V was chosen 'properly,' doesn't this bit from her Codex sound a wee bit suspicious to you? "When Beatrix III was felled by a massive stroke, she survived just long enough to put forth Dorothea's name as a candidate for her replacement."

She's apparently none too popular, and if she were to die, and there were to be two conflicting reports as to whom she nominated (one name from Nevarra, say, and one from Orlais), well then, that provides a wedge. And from that wedge, we can split something into two quite neatly, especially if the Orlesian name was someone else with a "suspicious" background, or someone who wasn't very well-liked.

The elves might be convinced to join in because the Orlesian domination of the Chantry is responsible for their centuries of apartheid? I mean, the war of the Dales started out as a territorial dispute between two countries; it was only when Orlais realized it was losing that it cried "exalted march!" If Orlais didn't have as much direct control over the church's military, then elves would still be free today.

[TanyaT]

TanyaT wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Anders is a great character with some super development, but, he's a terrorist.

one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist
eg Menachem Begin

wow looks like I started something yesterday lunchtime (UK time, guess looking at this most of you are in the US?)  - that post was only the eighth in the thread, now there's pages of it!

Interesting discussion too, I'm learning loads about the world.

[Eollodwyn]

Heidenreich wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what do you mean the Ferelden circle is worse off than Kirkwall?

Decided to import my Magi Origin who freed the Circle, this resulted in people saying it'll end badly and such. Went to the Kirkwall Circle and heard a few mages mention that they atleast weren't in Ferelden's Circle. Leliana also mentions something bad happened in Ferelden, which Gaider said will be explored later.

Oh, that sounds interesting. Never knew they said that. 

They are probably referring to Chantry retaliation though. My impression at least. 

Effectively the people making references to the Ferelden Circle being horrible are because of the following.

1. They had an abomniation breakout --- we see this in Origins, and its due to Uldred trying to find a way to free the Circle from the Chantry and failing miserably. He sided with Loghain, who promised just that. When Ostiagar fell, he ran back to the circle, said the king was dead, all hail Loghain... except Wynne didn't die either, and being the Chantry-...lady of the night.. that she -is-, she said "NO THATS NOT WHAT HAPPENENDDDDDD" and Uldred panicked and... well, kaboom.

2. Everyone thinks -anywhere- is better then Ferelden. They just finshed a blight, for.. blights sake. On top of it Ferelden was -already- a backwater no-where full of half-savages and dog-lords. At least, according to everyone who doesn't live there. Half the land's blighted (Lothering, big chunks of the Bannorn). Denerim's pratically rubble, and even Amerantine may have been sacked. Its not a super fun place full of awesome to live.


Thus, when you import from a Mage Warden, you get comments about Ferelden, more mentiones of what happened at the Circle there (see: Cullen and wanderers). As a matter of fact, my Mage Warden had the circle annulled - and she was just as much anti-templar/chantry as Anders is ;p Beause of it, I got a couple different lines from Cullen and wandering mages about how it was so bad in Ferelden that the circle had to be annuled.

Is this confirmed?  I think I remember Gaider saying that because of the Mage Boon and the Chantry's refusal to free the Circle mages, the Fereldan monarch (Alistair, in my game) was barring Templars from hunting down mages and bringing them to the Circle.  The result was a boatload of tension between Fereldan and the Chantry.

I can't find the thread to link it, though.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm pretty sure that if you load a mage save, and are a mage positive Hawke, Alistair mentions that he's trying to do things to help apostates, because he tried to help the circle and the chantry interfered. Here's one of the Alistair cutscenes, and it has some references to Alistair trying to help mages and the Chantry intimidating him. (this is a Cousland import, so it doesn't seem to involve the mage or Dalish boon, because I know those cause some kind of extra comment).

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 22 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[esper]

Nope - doesn't mention my Surana's mage boon at all. He does shelter apostates, but he says he can do nothing about the circle.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

esper wrote...

Nope - doesn't mention my Surana's mage boon at all. He does shelter apostates, but he says he can do nothing about the circle.

Ok, I was checking some things... apparently the mage boon doesn't import properly. There's a fix out there, but basically if you asked Alistair for it the flag never properly sets, but if Alistair is mad at you and you ask Anora instead, it works? Something like that. It's too late for me to track it down. There are fixes out there, apparently.

I know I've seen the video where he maddeningly refuses to tell you what went wrong with the Dalish boon, but I can't find that at this hour either. I may look again later.

[esper]

It could be one of the imports bugs, but so far the boon isn't registred. It did not register my dalish boon either, I wonder what happened to city elf boon and dwarf boon?

[Knight of Dane]

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...
*snipped*

The mages are in a position where they are faced with fight for freedom or die, i never denied that.
My notion of always seeing peace applies to all, but it is not relevant when talking about the circle mages, the war has already broken out.

Then what have we been talking about? I was under the impression we were arguing over whether or not a peaceful solution was possible?

I leave that to guesswork, what i was arguing was that Anders bomb was wrong and definetely denyed the mages any chance at a peaceful solution.

And I was saying there was no peaceful solution. Had Anders not done what he had done, the violence just would have erupted in a different manner.

And that is the guesswork. Something completely else might have happened, the point is that the mages from the circle was robbed from their chance.

[Knight of Dane]

esper wrote...

It could be one of the imports bugs, but so far the boon isn't registred. It did not register my dalish boon either, I wonder what happened to city elf boon and dwarf boon?

The boons are recognized but Alister will for some reason only mention the mage or the dalish boon if it was Anora who granted them to you.

[esper]

Anora granted my dalish boon, but Alitstar still won't mention it :-(

[Knight of Dane]

You sure you asked for it then?
He was king, right?