203 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Elthina deserved it more than anyone in Kirkwall. Neglience is one of the most terrible things in the world espically when the person who should be doing something is the person not doing anything. Elthina is worse than Meridith because Meridith believed that she was doing good, while Elthina knew that Meridith went too far but yet did nothing to stop her eventhough she was the one who could and should have done it the moment Meridith begang preventing the nobles from choosing a new Vicount.

[Heidenreich]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Let me rephrase: Crualty against those that do not deserve it is never necesarry. Elthina did not deserve to be blown up.

1. *smooches KoD* 

2. Elthina herself did indeed need to be replaced. Mind you probably not BLOWN UP, but replaced. Had she used her position to reign in Meredith years previous, the situation would not have esclated in the mannor that it did.  Mind you in game we don't really actually get to see how the situation has esclated, which is unfortunate because it would have lent to more understanding as to why Anders did what he did. Which is a design flaw, but that's neither here nore there.

3. I'm actually not done with my thought, but I'm distracted by adorable kids and making dinner, so I'll be back to elaborate 

[Knight of Dane]

Keep beleiving your illusions, terrorism is never necessary.

[esper]

we would never have our society if it wasn't for that kind of violence

I like to discuss question of morality, but if we are using phrases as 'keep your illusions' then we are going dangerously near personal attacks and I won't do that. Other interesting debates to be had elsewhere.

[Heidenreich]

Heidenreich wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Let me rephrase: Crualty against those that do not deserve it is never necesarry. Elthina did not deserve to be blown up.

3. I'm actually not done with my thought, but I'm distracted by adorable kids and making dinner, so I'll be back to elaborate 

Right, so!

3. I'm not condoning what he did, never in fact. It wasn't -the right- choice of action, to say the least. But, to say that there is never a need for terrorism is like blindly thinking that you'll never run out of food because you can always just go to the grocery store. The world was built on violence, and todays modern terroists were yesterdays revolutionaries, and even before that there were warlords.

Terrorism in itself is not "evil" as we precive them. That is a Bush-ism at its finest. Just as most terroists themselves are not evil. They are only preceived as evil by those they are fighting against. If they win the war they're trying to start, then they, through history, become the Heroes. Thus, its all reletive.

Again, I'm not condoning terrorism or terrorist acts. They're horrible, outragious, and to the every day man, utterly unnessisary.

[Knight of Dane]

esper wrote...

we would never have our society if it wasn't for that kind of violence

I like to discuss question of morality, but if we are using phrases as 'keep your illusions' then we are going dangerously near personal attacks and I won't do that. Other interesting debates to be had elsewhere.

Call it what you will, when you fight opression you attack what is causing the dmage, not what's keeping the stability.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

esper wrote...

Elthina deserved it more than anyone in Kirkwall. Neglience is one of the most terrible things in the world espically when the person who should be doing something is the person not doing anything. Elthina is worse than Meridith because Meridith believed that she was doing good, while Elthina knew that Meridith went too far but yet did nothing to stop her eventhough she was the one who could and should have done it the moment Meridith begang preventing the nobles from choosing a new Vicount.

I agree. The fact that she is perhaps the most potentially powerful person in Kirkwall, being Meredith's superior. She was more than incompetant, she was criminally negligent on many fronts. She was not only in a position of power and influence over Meredith, by holding this position, she had a responsibility to act. And she did not.

As far as I'm concerned, a person who is in a position of such power and responsibility yet willfully and deliberately does nothing is as bad as the idiot who ends up doing something foolish or extreme.

So yeah, no tears for Elthina here. Her lazy incompetance had already cost alot of lives through willful inaction, so I'm not really that bothered about Anders sending her to meet her Maker, so to speak. If she wasn't capable of willing to fulfill her responsibilities and duties as the Grand Cleric, then she should have stepped down and let someone more competant take over.

[Tainan7509]

I understand why people love this character. In the story development, he is a well written character who does amazing thing (ie blow up chantry) and cause a lot of troubles (ie put all the innocent mages from the gallow in a very very bad situation). All these leads to story climax and it is very good indeed.

I personally don't like his move, but in most of my playthrough, i do let him flee instead of killing him. Because giving him a quick death is too easy for him. Violance is never a good way to earn freedom and other people's aceptance. I hope to see him pay for what he had done, and making him realize his stupidity and mistake.
So i strongly against his decision and idea, but i admit that he is a well written character.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 26 août 2011 - 02:50 .

[TanyaT]

last night I started replaying Origins as a mage, taking the Harrowing and running about a fairly clean tower, and it's nice meeting a young ginger Cullen

However, knowing what's to come in DA2, it's interesting to hear the young mages hate the templars and the chantry, the stuff that's drummed into them has ruined their young lives, one girl hates being a mage and wishes she'd not been born, and there's factions fomenting rebellion.

This was definitely setting us up for our tortured soul Anders.

[esper]

Knight of Dane wrote...

esper wrote...

we would never have our society if it wasn't for that kind of violence

I like to discuss question of morality, but if we are using phrases as 'keep your illusions' then we are going dangerously near personal attacks and I won't do that. Other interesting debates to be had elsewhere.

Call it what you will, when you fight opression you attack what is causing the dmage, not what's keeping the stability.

The chantry is the one causing the oppresion. And as the grand cleric Elthina is part of the chantry - the higest part in Kirkwall. The templar system exits because of teh chantry.

Elthina wasn't keeping the stability. Kirkwall has never been a stable city and in act 3 it is downright chaos. Because Elthina did nothing.
If she wanted to keep stability she should have sacked Meridith the moment she took the seat of vicount. Meridith wasn't allowed to do that and as her superior Elthina should have stopped her. All Elthina did was prolonging a fight were people kept getting more and more unhappy and violent. People were dying left and right because the fighting were allowed to continue.
As Grand Cleric Elthina had the duty to remove Meridith and tell the mages that she as the official representant of the chantry couldn't grand them more rights because it might cause a exhalted march. 
She should have been honest about what she was as a grand cleric.
The chantry  were on the way to make an whole new imperium where we instead of slavery gets (violent) oppression of people who are different. Not just oppression, you get people who is born withoout any legals right - at all. That may be stability, but it is also Tyranni and it is not acceptable.   

Modifié par esper, 26 août 2011 - 09:19 .

[ladyofpayne]

I love him too. He is witty, clever, passionate and he go on Hawke first.

[FieryDove]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Call it what you will, when you fight opression you attack what is causing the dmage, not what's keeping the stability.

I don't call lobotomies, rape, murder, mental and physical abuse stability. Just boggle.

[TanyaT]

FieryDove wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Call it what you will, when you fight opression you attack what is causing the dmage, not what's keeping the stability.

I don't call lobotomies, rape, murder, mental and physical abuse stability. Just boggle.

most of us don't.

think Knight of Dane isn't going to give in on this, I hope he's never in a position to feel the way Anders and other mages do.

[Knight of Dane]

And i don't call safe civilians a overly evil system, there could have been another solution with less blodshed, that is never a bad thing to go for.

Anders could also just have killed her, that would have caused the same reaction. I still don't beleive it necessary, but at least the people could just target him for a single murder instead of a open war attack.

[esper]

But Anders wanted to start a war.
Which safe civilian are you talking about again?
Thedas is not exactly the safest world. The laws don't always work if you lack money or influence, so get wronged by someone who held money or influence and you can do nothing.
Crime is one of safest job description there is because if you are a criminal chance is that you can wield a weapon to defend yourself.
And don't even get me started on how they threat elves.
Exactly which part of the societies we have seen in Thedas works?

[TanyaT]

Knight of Dane wrote...

And i don't call safe civilians a overly evil system, there could have been another solution with less bloodshed, that is never a bad thing to go for..

yeah keep your head down, never disagree with your leader.
just like people in Libya, Zimbabwe etc probably feel/felt safe

[Knight of Dane]

TanyaT wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

And i don't call safe civilians a overly evil system, there could have been another solution with less bloodshed, that is never a bad thing to go for..

yeah keep your head down, never disagree with your leader.
just like people in Libya, Zimbabwe etc probably feel/felt safe

The difference is just the in those cases it is the people that uphold the law and jusgement that is corrupt, the chantry doesn't do that. Meredith seized power after Dumar, which is wrong. And therefore she should be fought like Gadafi, but Elthina was looking for a compromise that wouldn't cost the life of Kirkwall, Bombing her is like bombing Anders Fogh or Ban Ki-moon, she was not in control.

Would a compromise lead somewhere different? Who knows, personally i doubt it would do more than just delay something else, but at least the mages would have had a shot at defending themselves.

[Knight of Dane]

esper wrote...

But Anders wanted to start a war.
Which safe civilian are you talking about again?
Thedas is not exactly the safest world. The laws don't always work if you lack money or influence, so get wronged by someone who held money or influence and you can do nothing.
Crime is one of safest job description there is because if you are a criminal chance is that you can wield a weapon to defend yourself.
And don't even get me started on how they threat elves.
Exactly which part of the societies we have seen in Thedas works?

Elves? What are you talking about. I'm not defending the way the chantry work, I'm against Anders bomb, don't lead it off track.
Safe Civillians can be anyone. What are the people of Kirkwall supposed to do when hell breaks loose in their city, flee? Is that any better?
Anders destroys the seat of religous power in the city which is also a safe institution for a lot of people, if he had, had a grasp of public safety he would have targeted the gallows, perhaps Meredith's office, but that was too close to the people he pretended to defend.

[Neminea]

When it comes to a system that is as old and set in its way as the Chantry (and dare I say corrupted) then there cannot be a pieceful way to end it.

Look at how impossible it is to sway any of us from our believes and opinions on his forum, do you think that an institution that has had the same believes for hundreds of years is any easier to persuade from said believes?

I can't think of any orginized religion or ruling system that ended without bloodshed. The Egyptians, persians, romans, Napoleon (who hadn't even been in charge that long), catholic church, you name it and they ended with war, bloodshed, acts that we would concider terrorism if they had lost and the death of civilians.

History is written by the victor after all.

Modifié par Neminea, 26 août 2011 - 10:17 .

[Knight of Dane]

And i Anders didn't end it, he started it. Started it with a bomb that killed a bunch of people that did not deserve it.

Edit: And no, by starting it i don't mean as a start to the mage/templar thing, that's always been going on, i mean he was the outbreak that doomed his people.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 26 août 2011 - 10:19 .

[Neminea]

Or freed them, you can't say for sure since nobody knows yet since we don't have dragon age 3 yet.
Someone has to strike the first blow. I could argue how the templars did that years ago by starting to abuse their power, but it really doesn't matter in the end does it?

As I said, history is written by the victor. Wether or not this "first blow" will be remembered as the heroic first strike that set the mages on their path of freedom or the act of terrorism that doomed them all, only time can tell.

[Knight of Dane]

True that, even though i'm tired of the mage/templar debate it's probably going to continue in 3.

[Neminea]

But why? It's so delightfully fun, at least I think it is since even after reading all these debates over the last few weeks I still can't say for certain who is "right" and who is "wrong".

[Knight of Dane]

I like harassing Qunari, can't we battle them instead. Bossfights involving Arishok's are more interesting than Knight-Commander's. ^^