203 réponses à ce sujet

[Neminea]

But where would be the afterforum-fun in that? Most people seem to allready agree that a war with the Qunari is a no-brainer. What would we discuss on the forum? The latest Orlai shoe fashions?

[Knight of Dane]

We could discuss the coming importance of mabari hounds in the Kirkwall guard..

[TanyaT]

what the hell happened to the Quanri between Orgins and 2???? Was it some weird virus, or something they don't like to talk about à la Klingon?

---

I have decided the chantry's evil, and I will hold Anders staff as he blows them up
I've just played through the start of Origins as a mage, gives you a whole different perspective when you've played through DA2
hearing heart rending tales* tales of mother's refusing to touch "that thing" and dumping them in the chantry, or toddlers being snatched away from their mothers, because magic is horrible say the chantry;  for them to be told they are innately evil and must be bound inside the tower, with nothing but a cruel abusive military keeping their evil from destroying the world. Oppressed, loathed, feared, all because of the one religious body and their witchfinders.
Do that over centuries and you produce a rebellious force which will explode.

* I don't have the motherly gene but these got to me.

We've seen countries that want their freedom do it, they suffered from being lesser beings than the rulers, mages are the same ... and one day the elves will rise up properly too.


on a gentler note ... I met Anders in there, Greg Ellis was an apprentice mage I spoke too and of course he was Cullen

[Knight of Dane]

[Heidenreich]

Knight of Dane wrote...

I feel as if I should loathe you for leaving that there for me to watch <_<.

Also, I don't nessisarly disagree with him on quite a few points. That being said, I still find myself slightly irritated by some of his observations, which to say are only made because he (and he admits such) skipped much(more like all from the sound of it) of the non-manditory side-plots. If I was any kind of computer-savy I'd do a bit of my own review-via-youtube to respond ;p

Alas, I'm not. Also, I'm hungry.

Want a sandwich?

[Knight of Dane]

Sure, as long as you don't use peanut butter.

I just thought he made some clear points, but you are right, he does skip alot and it doesn't seem like he understands most of the Dragon Age lore.
He doesn't know that the Qun is a religion. Just a example.

[Heidenreich]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Sure, as long as you don't use peanut butter.

I just thought he made some clear points, but you are right, he does skip alot and it doesn't seem like he understands most of the Dragon Age lore.

He doesn't know that the Qun is a religion. Just a example.

Grilled Cheese and Ham, actualy

He does indeed make some solid, clear points. I absolutely believe that the vast majority of the manditory-side-to-become-main plots should have been better tied in together. That being said, if you actually play the fist act as it asks you to (first thing out the gate sends you to see Aveline.. you run into the Feynriel quest when bringing Merrill home.. etc etc.) it does feel more .. flowy.. then if you follow the journal. Though personally, since they're "rumors", I would have loved to have pop-up replies by Varric, or even a scene detailing them.. or heck the inn-keeper if not varric.. to help tie them all in, yanno?

Modifié par Heidenreich, 29 août 2011 - 04:13 .

[jamesp81]

I really liked Elthina as a person.  She seemed a good hearted person.  I did not agree with what Anders did, yet I could not find any retribution in my heart for him, a fact that Sebastian was rather displeased about I might add.

When I look at Anders I see the face of inevitability.  When one group of people treats another like criminals even before they commit a crime, the end result is inevitable.

I've said this before and I'll re-iterate it.  Innocent people always die in wars.  That fact does not mean that a just war should not be fought or that the cause should be abandoned.

Also consider what Orsino said to Meredith.  At one point he offered to surrender and help her search the tower.  This would've simply ended the situation and continued the oppression of the mages.  Anders was right that his action removed the possibility of a surrender and, as terrible as it was at the time, this is a war for freedom that was long overdue and Anders ensured it would happen.

History may judge Anders harshly, but a lot of people are going to win their freedom because of him.

Elthina is not totally innocent either.  She subscribed to a philosophy that said depriving people of life and liberty who had committed no crime was justified.  She didn't even reign in Meredith's worst excesses at a time when Meredith might've still listened.  I don't know how Kirkwall works, but in most western armies commanders are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

No one in the circle is morally obligated to abrogate their natural rights due to an accident of birth.  Also, armed resistance to secure one's liberty, unjustly taken, is justified.  As much as I liked Elthina, and as devout a man my Hawke was, she was a willing participant to a system that did things that she should've known better than to be part of.  I simply cannot say that striking at the Chantry as the source of oppression was unjustified.

I don't think the Chantry is evil.  I role played my Hawke similar to my own beliefs IRL; a devout man.  The Chantry should've known better, though, and what they suffered is an inevitable consequence of their actions that I wouldn't have stopped even were I able.  On a side note, it is fortunate that my real church isn't an organization that would involve itself what amounts to forced indentured servitude.  Makes life a lot easier when the people you go to church with aren't practicing forced indentured servitude.

Modifié par jamesp81, 30 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[TanyaT]

jamesp81 wrote...

I really liked Elthina as a person.  She seemed a good hearted person.  I did not agree with what Anders did, yet I could not find any retribution in my heart for him, a fact that Sebastian was rather displeased about I might add.

When I look at Anders I see the face of inevitability.  When one group of people treats another like criminals even before they commit a crime, the end result is inevitable.

I've said this before and I'll re-iterate it.  Innocent people always die in wars.  That fact does not mean that a just war should not be fought or that the cause should be abandoned.

Also consider what Orsino said to Meredith.  At one point he offered to surrender and help her search the tower.  This would've simply ended the situation and continued the oppression of the mages.  Anders was right that his action removed the possibility of a surrender and, as terrible as it was at the time, this is a war for freedom that was long overdue and Anders ensured it would happen.

History may judge Anders harshly, but a lot of people are going to win their freedom because of him.

Elthina is not totally innocent either.  She subscribed to a philosophy that said depriving people of life and liberty who had committed no crime was justified.  She didn't even reign in Meredith's worst excesses at a time when Meredith might've still listened.  I don't know how Kirkwall works, but in most western armies commanders are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

No one in the circle is morally obligated to abrogate their natural rights due to an accident of birth.  Also, armed resistance to secure one's liberty, unjustly taken, is justified.  As much as I liked Elthina, and as devout a man my Hawke was, she was a willing participant to a system that did things that she should've known better than to be part of.  I simply cannot say that striking at the Chantry as the source of oppression was unjustified.

I don't think the Chantry is evil.  I role played my Hawke similar to my own beliefs IRL; a devout man.  The Chantry should've known better, though, and what they suffered is an inevitable consequence of their actions that I wouldn't have stopped even were I able.  On a side note, it is fortunate that my real church isn't an organization that would involve itself what amounts to forced indentured servitude.  Makes life a lot easier when the people you go to church with aren't practicing forced indentured servitude.

well said

I agree with all you've written, even though I'm a devout atheist, the last line is meaningful to me as many of my friends are escaped Roman Catholics


where's the applauding smiley?

[esper]

TanyaT wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I really liked Elthina as a person.  She seemed a good hearted person.  I did not agree with what Anders did, yet I could not find any retribution in my heart for him, a fact that Sebastian was rather displeased about I might add.

When I look at Anders I see the face of inevitability.  When one group of people treats another like criminals even before they commit a crime, the end result is inevitable.

I've said this before and I'll re-iterate it.  Innocent people always die in wars.  That fact does not mean that a just war should not be fought or that the cause should be abandoned.

Also consider what Orsino said to Meredith.  At one point he offered to surrender and help her search the tower.  This would've simply ended the situation and continued the oppression of the mages.  Anders was right that his action removed the possibility of a surrender and, as terrible as it was at the time, this is a war for freedom that was long overdue and Anders ensured it would happen.

History may judge Anders harshly, but a lot of people are going to win their freedom because of him.

Elthina is not totally innocent either.  She subscribed to a philosophy that said depriving people of life and liberty who had committed no crime was justified.  She didn't even reign in Meredith's worst excesses at a time when Meredith might've still listened.  I don't know how Kirkwall works, but in most western armies commanders are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

No one in the circle is morally obligated to abrogate their natural rights due to an accident of birth.  Also, armed resistance to secure one's liberty, unjustly taken, is justified.  As much as I liked Elthina, and as devout a man my Hawke was, she was a willing participant to a system that did things that she should've known better than to be part of.  I simply cannot say that striking at the Chantry as the source of oppression was unjustified.

I don't think the Chantry is evil.  I role played my Hawke similar to my own beliefs IRL; a devout man.  The Chantry should've known better, though, and what they suffered is an inevitable consequence of their actions that I wouldn't have stopped even were I able.  On a side note, it is fortunate that my real church isn't an organization that would involve itself what amounts to forced indentured servitude.  Makes life a lot easier when the people you go to church with aren't practicing forced indentured servitude.

well said

I agree with all you've written, even though I'm a devout atheist, the last line is meaningful to me as many of my friends are escaped Roman Catholics


where's the applauding smiley?

I think the chantry is evil. Not because they are religous, but because I basically think the Maker is evil - to simply it. I have a problem with the word evil actually.
That said it is a well written post and I agree on Elthina being a good person. She just shouldn't have been anywhere near the grand cleric title.

[jamesp81]

Tainan7509 wrote...

Violance is never a good way to earn freedom and other people's aceptance.

I have to disagree philosophically.  Sometimes it's the only method that will work.  Other times it's the best method available.

Freedom is, and always has been, maintained and preserved at the point of a sword.

Sometimes war / armed conflict is the only way to secure one's freedom.  This is not to say freedom has never been won by non-violent means, but in most cases those means don't work.

[jamesp81]

esper wrote...

TanyaT wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I really liked Elthina as a person.  She seemed a good hearted person.  I did not agree with what Anders did, yet I could not find any retribution in my heart for him, a fact that Sebastian was rather displeased about I might add.

When I look at Anders I see the face of inevitability.  When one group of people treats another like criminals even before they commit a crime, the end result is inevitable.

I've said this before and I'll re-iterate it.  Innocent people always die in wars.  That fact does not mean that a just war should not be fought or that the cause should be abandoned.

Also consider what Orsino said to Meredith.  At one point he offered to surrender and help her search the tower.  This would've simply ended the situation and continued the oppression of the mages.  Anders was right that his action removed the possibility of a surrender and, as terrible as it was at the time, this is a war for freedom that was long overdue and Anders ensured it would happen.

History may judge Anders harshly, but a lot of people are going to win their freedom because of him.

Elthina is not totally innocent either.  She subscribed to a philosophy that said depriving people of life and liberty who had committed no crime was justified.  She didn't even reign in Meredith's worst excesses at a time when Meredith might've still listened.  I don't know how Kirkwall works, but in most western armies commanders are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

No one in the circle is morally obligated to abrogate their natural rights due to an accident of birth.  Also, armed resistance to secure one's liberty, unjustly taken, is justified.  As much as I liked Elthina, and as devout a man my Hawke was, she was a willing participant to a system that did things that she should've known better than to be part of.  I simply cannot say that striking at the Chantry as the source of oppression was unjustified.

I don't think the Chantry is evil.  I role played my Hawke similar to my own beliefs IRL; a devout man.  The Chantry should've known better, though, and what they suffered is an inevitable consequence of their actions that I wouldn't have stopped even were I able.  On a side note, it is fortunate that my real church isn't an organization that would involve itself what amounts to forced indentured servitude.  Makes life a lot easier when the people you go to church with aren't practicing forced indentured servitude.

well said

I agree with all you've written, even though I'm a devout atheist, the last line is meaningful to me as many of my friends are escaped Roman Catholics


where's the applauding smiley?

I think the chantry is evil. Not because they are religous, but because I basically think the Maker is evil - to simply it. I have a problem with the word evil actually.
That said it is a well written post and I agree on Elthina being a good person. She just shouldn't have been anywhere near the grand cleric title.

I truly wish there was an appropriate place on this forum to discuss the concept of evil (which I do believe in, btw) without getting a threadlock, bans, or a general ****storm started.

As for Roman Catholicism....as far as I know, the Catholic church doesn't practice anything like what we see ingame.  Not a catholic myself but still a Christian, so I find myself obligated to speak on their behalf.  The mistakes of imperfect human beings in a church does not invalidate the message itself.

[Ryzaki]

Mages to me will never be able to have the same rights as normal people because they *aren't* normal people. Never have been, never will be.

I was reading some codex...apparently the mages WERE being treated like normal people (other than having to light some eternal flame) and weren't allowed to use their powers. So they apparently got upset about it. They want a normal person's freedoms without the restrictions. That's not gonna work.

[esper]

jamesp81 wrote...

esper wrote...

TanyaT wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I really liked Elthina as a person.  She seemed a good hearted person.  I did not agree with what Anders did, yet I could not find any retribution in my heart for him, a fact that Sebastian was rather displeased about I might add.

When I look at Anders I see the face of inevitability.  When one group of people treats another like criminals even before they commit a crime, the end result is inevitable.

I've said this before and I'll re-iterate it.  Innocent people always die in wars.  That fact does not mean that a just war should not be fought or that the cause should be abandoned.

Also consider what Orsino said to Meredith.  At one point he offered to surrender and help her search the tower.  This would've simply ended the situation and continued the oppression of the mages.  Anders was right that his action removed the possibility of a surrender and, as terrible as it was at the time, this is a war for freedom that was long overdue and Anders ensured it would happen.

History may judge Anders harshly, but a lot of people are going to win their freedom because of him.

Elthina is not totally innocent either.  She subscribed to a philosophy that said depriving people of life and liberty who had committed no crime was justified.  She didn't even reign in Meredith's worst excesses at a time when Meredith might've still listened.  I don't know how Kirkwall works, but in most western armies commanders are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

No one in the circle is morally obligated to abrogate their natural rights due to an accident of birth.  Also, armed resistance to secure one's liberty, unjustly taken, is justified.  As much as I liked Elthina, and as devout a man my Hawke was, she was a willing participant to a system that did things that she should've known better than to be part of.  I simply cannot say that striking at the Chantry as the source of oppression was unjustified.

I don't think the Chantry is evil.  I role played my Hawke similar to my own beliefs IRL; a devout man.  The Chantry should've known better, though, and what they suffered is an inevitable consequence of their actions that I wouldn't have stopped even were I able.  On a side note, it is fortunate that my real church isn't an organization that would involve itself what amounts to forced indentured servitude.  Makes life a lot easier when the people you go to church with aren't practicing forced indentured servitude.

well said

I agree with all you've written, even though I'm a devout atheist, the last line is meaningful to me as many of my friends are escaped Roman Catholics


where's the applauding smiley?

I think the chantry is evil. Not because they are religous, but because I basically think the Maker is evil - to simply it. I have a problem with the word evil actually.
That said it is a well written post and I agree on Elthina being a good person. She just shouldn't have been anywhere near the grand cleric title.

I truly wish there was an appropriate place on this forum to discuss the concept of evil (which I do believe in, btw) without getting a threadlock, bans, or a general ****storm started.

As for Roman Catholicism....as far as I know, the Catholic church doesn't practice anything like what we see ingame.  Not a catholic myself but still a Christian, so I find myself obligated to speak on their behalf.  The mistakes of imperfect human beings in a church does not invalidate the message itself.

I would love a discussing of evil, but it is properly a hell hole to open. Just like I think we are moving into a dangerous subject now, but I have been dying to discuss this properly so here goes.
I like the message of christany and you can't blame the message for the fault of the humans that follow it.
I don't like the message of Andraste/Maker/andrastian and while I don't blame the good individual that follows it, I have problem with the organisation that is dedicated to it. I don't want to kill every chantry priest. I want to dissolve the chantry as an organisation.  

[berelinde]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mages to me will never be able to have the same rights as normal people because they *aren't* normal people. Never have been, never will be.

I was reading some codex...apparently the mages WERE being treated like normal people (other than having to light some eternal flame) and weren't allowed to use their powers. So they apparently got upset about it. They want a normal person's freedoms without the restrictions. That's not gonna work.

It works for the Dalish.

They do not shepherd mages into Circles. Sure, Dalish mages undergo training to become Keepers one day, but their role as a vital part of the community, not as an outcast, keeps them grounded. They act for the good of the clan, and while possession is not unknown, it is far from the common occurence it becomes when mages are treated as criminals.

The concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy is nothing new.

Modifié par berelinde, 30 août 2011 - 05:13 .

[jamesp81]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mages to me will never be able to have the same rights as normal people because they *aren't* normal people. Never have been, never will be.

I was reading some codex...apparently the mages WERE being treated like normal people (other than having to light some eternal flame) and weren't allowed to use their powers. So they apparently got upset about it. They want a normal person's freedoms without the restrictions. That's not gonna work.

That just doesn't make sense to me.  You seem to be saying that mages have to be restricted because they have an unusual amount of power.

One need not be a mage to be powerful.  How much damage do you think the five richest people in the world, working together, could cause if they so chose?  Should we lock them away preemptively, or have someone constantly watching them 24/7 in case they turn bad?  Should we deprave them of their liberties based on the idea that they might commit a crime later?

Power is power.  Some have a lot of it, some only a little.  We don't lock people up in prisons pre-emptively if they are born with a lot of power of any sort.

Modifié par jamesp81, 30 août 2011 - 05:18 .

[Ryzaki]

berelinde wrote...
It works for the Dalish.

They do not shepherd mages into Circles. Sure, Dalish mages undergo training to become Keepers one day, but their role as a vital part of the community, not as an outcast, keeps them grounded. They act for the good of the clan, and while possession is not unknown, it is far from the common occurence it becomes when mages are treated as criminals.

The concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy is nothing new.

You mean by them constantly moving around and giving up their mages to other groups that need mages? That's being treated normally?  

Merrill pretty much states she was an outcast before the mirror incident. Her magic and training for keeper probably had a lot to do with it. One doesn't have to be abused and exploited to be treated differerently. 

[Ryzaki]

jamesp81 wrote...
That just doesn't make sense to me.  You seem to be saying that mages have to be restricted because they have an unusual amount of power.

One need not be a mage to be powerful.  How much damage do you think the five richest people in the world, working together, could cause if they so chose?  Should we lock them away preemptively, or have someone constantly watching them 24/7 in case they turn bad?  Should we deprave them of their liberties based on the idea that they might commit a crime later?

Power is power.  Some have a lot of it, some only a little.  We don't lock people up in prisons pre-emptively if they have a lot of power or a power that people are afraid of.

The mages themselves? Nope. Their usage of said power? Yes. 

If mages were willing to never use their powers and live like normal people I'd be inclined to treat them as such. If they don't want to live like a normal person I see no reason to treat them as such. 

You do realize companies have certain rules and regulations to follow right? (not to mention companies and governments are so corrput to begin with trying to compare them to one person is a bit ludcrious). A rich person doesn't get power and glory from their fingertips. They have connections bridges, they have to rely on others for that power. No one in this world has that much power on their own. It doesn't work that way in RL. No person no matter how rich can mindrape someone within a few minutes just by cutting themselves or using "magic".

Mages however DO. They can make someone do their bidding without relying on another being or a machine. They can force demons into others bodies, make people do their bidding, can summon fire, ice and electricity from their fingertips. 

Except those people do not have the potential to do anywhere near as much destruction on their own. You can't compare rich and powerful people to mages. They have a lot more strings attached to their power than mages do. 

It's like saying you treat an unarmed person and a person with a loaded gun the exact same way. You just wouldn't. And it's completely natural.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[berelinde]

Ryzaki wrote...

berelinde wrote...
It works for the Dalish.

They do not shepherd mages into Circles. Sure, Dalish mages undergo training to become Keepers one day, but their role as a vital part of the community, not as an outcast, keeps them grounded. They act for the good of the clan, and while possession is not unknown, it is far from the common occurence it becomes when mages are treated as criminals.

The concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy is nothing new.

You mean by them constantly moving around and giving up their mages to other groups that need mages? That's being treated normally?  

Merrill pretty much states she was an outcast before the mirror incident. Her magic and training for keeper probably had a lot to do with it. One doesn't have to be abused and exploited to be treated differerently. 

Not all socially inept people are mages. Look at any high school.

There are degrees of normality, too. Most mages recognize the need for training, so a lifestyle that included it would not be too odious.

Moving around a lot is part of Dalish routine. They have always followed the halla, even when there aren't any templars sniffing the bushes. And going to another clan because your particular talents are needed in one place rather than in another is very, very similar to an apprenticeship model that has enjoyed great popularity (and continues to enjoy great popularity) in the western world. Medieval tradesmen often took apprentices from another village and if there's no one who teaches welding in a modern town, a person who wants to learn it will have to go to another. Merrill doesn't like it, but that might just be part of her own social awkwardness.

Edit: With all due respect to Merrill (I really do adore her), she would have been an outcast even if the most dangerous thing she could do was needlework. It's just part of her charm.

Modifié par berelinde, 30 août 2011 - 05:27 .

[Ryzaki]

berelinde wrote...
Not all socially inept people are mages. Look at any high school.

There are degrees of normality, too. Most mages recognize the need for training, so a lifestyle that included it would not be too odious.

Moving around a lot is part of Dalish routine. They have always followed the halla, even when there aren't any templars sniffing the bushes. And going to another clan because your particular talents are needed in one place rather than in another is very, very similar to an apprenticeship model that has enjoyed great popularity (and continues to enjoy great popularity) in the western world. Medieval tradesmen often took apprentices from another village and if there's no one who teaches welding in a modern town, a person who wants to learn it will have to go to another. Merrill doesn't like it, but that might just be part of her own social awkwardness.

Edit: With all due respect to Merrill (I really do adore her), she would have been an outcast even if the most dangerous thing she could do was needlework. It's just part of her charm.

Which was my whole point. As long as mages need to be trained they can't be treated like normal people. Anymore than someone who could read minds could be treated as a normal person. There's nothing inherently malicious about being treated differently. People require different things. Treating everyone exactly the same regardless of what needs they have is doing them a disservice.

And the Dalish as a whole are pretty much outcasts. Those people don't have to stay and lead that other land though so it's not truly an apprentinceship where you go to learn some skills then can come home and reapply them them. The analogy doesn't work. They go to become the leaders of another clan. It's more akin to a political marriage where you'll most likely never see the rest of your family again.

Or Merrill might be one of many dalish mages who don't like it but there's no other choice and it's expected of them so they go along with it. They are still being treated differently from other elves.

That's probably true.

[jamesp81]

Ryzaki wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
That just doesn't make sense to me.  You seem to be saying that mages have to be restricted because they have an unusual amount of power.

One need not be a mage to be powerful.  How much damage do you think the five richest people in the world, working together, could cause if they so chose?  Should we lock them away preemptively, or have someone constantly watching them 24/7 in case they turn bad?  Should we deprave them of their liberties based on the idea that they might commit a crime later?

Power is power.  Some have a lot of it, some only a little.  We don't lock people up in prisons pre-emptively if they have a lot of power or a power that people are afraid of.

The mages themselves? Nope. Their usage of said power? Yes. 

If mages were willing to never use their powers and live like normal people I'd be inclined to treat them as such. If they don't want to live like a normal person I see no reason to treat them as such. 

You do realize companies have certain rules and regulations to follow right? (not to mention companies and governments are so corrput to begin with trying to compare them to one person is a bit ludcrious). A rich person doesn't get power and glory from their fingertips. They have connections bridges, they have to rely on others for that power. No one in this world has that much power on their own. It doesn't work that way in RL. No person no matter how rich can mindrape someone within a few minutes just by cutting themselves or using "magic".

Mages however DO. They can make someone do their bidding without relying on another being or a machine. They can force demons into others bodies, make people do their bidding, can summon fire, ice and electricity from their fingertips. 

Except those people do not have the potential to do anywhere near as much destruction on their own. You can't compare rich and powerful people to mages. They have a lot more strings attached to their power than mages do. 

It's like saying you treat an unarmed person and a person with a loaded gun the exact same way. You just wouldn't. And it's completely natural.

Even if I conceded all your points, which I don't, it doesn't matter.

You can have a free society or you can have chains.  You can't have both.

[Ryzaki]

jamesp81 wrote...
Even if I conceded all your points, which I don't, it doesn't matter.

You can have a free society or you can have chains.  You can't have both.

...You've completely missed my point. 

If you had a depressed person in a secure room would you treat him the same as a depressed person with a loaded gun in a secure room? Both have admitted to wanting to kill themselves. Now are you truly going to treat them the same way? 

If the answer is yes then we'll obviously find no common ground. 

I'm not suggesting making the mages slaves. But treating them the same way you'd treat a normal person is no solution. Treating someone differently because of circumstances and their abilities isn't automatically malicious. One does it every day intentionally or no. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 août 2011 - 06:36 .

[berelinde]

@Ryzaki: You're missing the point. Mages are not asking for complete obscurity. They want to be free to pursue things that normal people pursue. They want to be able to live with their families, travel where and when they choose, fall in love, marry, and/or have children. They don't want to have someone watching them 24/7, ready to put a sword through their chest if they sneeze funny. The Dalish manage to accomplish these things without the need to have templars standing by. That was my point.

[Ryzaki]

berelinde wrote...

@Ryzaki: You're missing the point. Mages are not asking for complete obscurity. They want to be free to pursue things that normal people pursue. They want to be able to live with their families, travel where and when they choose, fall in love, marry, and/or have children. They don't want to have someone watching them 24/7, ready to put a sword through their chest if they sneeze funny. The Dalish manage to accomplish these things without the need to have templars standing by. That was my point.

 

Except the Dalish mages aren't treated normally like the other dalish. Yes they can live with their families (provided they're not needed as a Keeper elsewhere) and the dalish do have restrictions on when they can marry/have children for everyone mages included (hell we don't even know if the dalish mages have unique restrictions on when to get married/have children.) Unless there's a codex I missed? Merrill even states that she's not used to practicing magic in the open suggesting to me at least that the Keeper only casts magic when it benefits the clan. A restriction some (or even many) mages might not be happy with. 

To me that's fine. But if they want to be able to live without any supervision at all (like a normal person) that's just not going to work to me. 

I'm not fine with the circles now. They need some serious overhaul. However mages being treated like a normal person completely isn't what I'm for. I'm guessing my "you can't treat mages like normal people" point was misunderstood. I'm not saying they can't do things normal people do. Or that they shouldn't but rather there will be circumstances where you can't treat them like a normal person. I mean really...I'm pretty much at the "Whatever" stage because we're not seeing this remotely similarly at this point. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 août 2011 - 06:48 .

[berelinde]

Alright, let's try this another way. Who, exactly, is supervising Dalish Keepers? They are responsible for leading their clans, so I suppose they can be said to report to the clain, but this is a far cry from having every room in their homes fitted with hot and cold running templars.

You say the idea doesn't work for you? OK, maybe you can't get your head around it. Personally, I can't get my head around how the International Date Line works. But the fact is that the idea does work for a lot of people.