291 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

Yeah.. You expect Bioware to do balancing, voicework, texture work, and the such for a replacement that not everyone has a chance to see?

They have a word for that stuff.

DLC.

My arguements aren't just from thin air. Bioware has a history and theyr recent games and sequels have only reinforced that history. It's a pity that not so many can see the s many similiarities and patterns that Bioware constantly gives off.

Or the obvious hints like...

"ME3 takes place more than a year later! Doesn't that sound familiar... OH WAIT!"

"Make sure that Grunt survives! We need him after he's done doing you're crazy Suicide Run!"

"I'm leaveing after this is over."

"Garrus will never reach his full potiential while under you, Shepard."

"Mordin is very old for a Salarian."

"Evil Quarian has Geth tech now and threatens Shepard about that fact. The Flotilla will be endanger!"

"Thane has less than a year to live and refuses treatment even if he's a LI."

I can keep going though knowing some of you here I believe you'll try to twist what Bioware put in the game.

"Oh, they'll never leave Shepard! If Shepard calls they'll come!"

ME2 hits.

Wrex - Sorry Shepard, I can do more good here than being another one of your guns.
Liara - Busy being the Shadow Broker now and would be much more helpful not just being one of your guns!
Kaiden - I'm not Tali. I don't yell at you for joining Cerberus than join you later anyway like a big Hypocrite which I'm not."
Ashley - "You didn't call me and you're working under a Terrorist now!" *PWANCH!*

Modifié par Elite Midget, 21 mars 2011 - 04:50 .

[aimlessgun]

Elite Midget wrote...

Yeah.. You expect Bioware to do balancing, voicework, texture work, and the such for a replacement that not everyone has a chance to see?

Let's be reasonable though. If they bring back 3 people that might have died, the vast majority of players will have 2-3 of the be alive. And for the dead people, it's called replay value.

[Elite Midget]

Yet not all character choices are the same.

Such asa characters that will leave you as soon as ME2 is done. Such as Samara, Garrus, Grunt, ect... Not to mention that Mordin and Thane will most likely be dead by the time ME3 hits via Age and Illness. Let's also not forgot that being a Renegade or Paragon or if they're or loyal or not will effect their 'REASON' as to why they will leave as well. If you bone Jack out/ of Lust she will leave on that excuse. Even if you do get her loyal and as a LI she wont stay doing nothing for years waiting for the Reapers. Hell, she still needs to get the rest of her life together and may go Soul Searching so she isn't as conflicted when she's needed.

Not every character is hinged only on the Suicide Mission. Look at what they've said and the outside factors that're beyond Shepard's control.

You have a very masochistic version of 'replay value'.

Punish Casuals and Newcomers by hindering their game play, cutting chunks out of ME3 story/content, and Max Squad Size because a few Hardcore want the dead Squaddies back?

That wont sell. Especially since Casuals give Bioware more money and each ME game was planned to be standalone experiences that are slightly enhanced if you import. Aka "Non-Gaming Play changing."

Modifié par Elite Midget, 21 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[aimlessgun]

Clarify "not all character choices are the same." I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Just because there is a reasonable argument for someone leaving doesn't mean they must logically leave.

Thinking that someone might play the game with more than one character is masochistic? Interesting...

Also, I already said that my stance on newcomers is fanatical. If you don't play ME1 and 2 before ME3, go die in a fire. So no discussion is possible on that front

EDIT: Also on the front of "content you can't access", so you don't think it's ok that if you play as Male Shep you can't access the femshep love stories? Some content can't be done in one playthrough. And that's ok.

DOUBLE EDIT: The whole "that won't sell" logic. Not convincing, you're just parroting a vague idea without support.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 21 mars 2011 - 05:08 .

[Sir Caradoc]

Elite Midget wrote...

Punish Casuals and Newcomers by hindering their game play, cutting chunks out of ME3 story/content, and Max Squad Size because a few Hardcore want the dead Squaddies back?

That wont sell. Especially since Casuals give Bioware more money and each ME game was planned to be standalone experiences that are slightly enhanced if you import. Aka "Non-Gaming Play changing."

You call it "punishing", I call it choise and consequence.

One can always replay me2 if he is not happy with end results.

This is the third part of Mass effect saga, so it shouldn't be designed newcomers in mind. You can't expect to understand Return of the Jedi if you didn't watch empire strikes back. Nor can you understand Godfather II if you haven't  seen the orginal. You can't start watching Battlestar galactica in the middle of season 3 and expect to understand characters as fully as those who have seen it since the first episode.

But like you said. Bioware doesn't give damn about us older fans. Its always about casuals and newcomers.

Modifié par Sir Caradoc, 21 mars 2011 - 05:09 .

[Nozybidaj]

Sir Caradoc wrote...
This is the third part of Mass effect saga, so it shouldn't be designed newcomers in mind. You can't expect to understand Return of the Jedi if you didn't watch empire strikes back. Nor can you understand Godfather II if you haven't  seen the orginal.

I don't disagree but....

You can't start watching Battlestar galactica in the middle of season 3 and expect to understand characters as fully as those who have seen it since the first episode.

If the show was made by Bioware, you would have had one crew in season 1, then they all left for a brand new crew in season 2.  By season 3 I'd be expecting an all new crew, so it's not like you really missed much of anything.

Every single reason given as to why the ME2 crew "just has" to return or why they "should" return or why it is "easier" for them return could have been exactly applied to the crew moving from ME1 to ME2 as well, more so even.  Same thing going from DA:O to DA2, hell they even replaced the protagonist there.

I'm not sure exactly why folks even expect them to return given BW's track record.  I understand wanting them to return but I really don't see it happening just given the logistics of it (how do you return dead people?).  Hope you all enjoy your 3 minute cameos.

[Sir Caradoc]

I undestand that there are valid reasons for some of them not to return and I'm not against hiring some new people as well, but having no familiar faces on normandy would be a bit silly. the whole point of me 2 was to hire the perfect crew. But I'm not surprised if there is a whole new squad.

[Elite Midget]

There are numerous and valid reasons why NONE of them would return. Not to mention that there will be a time skip between ME2 to ME3 and we all know what Bioware does with Time Skips.

aimlessgun wrote...

Clarify "not all character choices are the same." I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Just because there is a reasonable argument for someone leaving doesn't mean they must logically leave.

Thinking that someone might play the game with more than one character is masochistic? Interesting...

Also, I already said that my stance on newcomers is fanatical. If you don't play ME1 and 2 before ME3, go die in a fire. So no discussion is possible on that front

EDIT: Also on the front of "content you can't access", so you don't think it's ok that if you play as Male Shep you can't access the femshep love stories? Some content can't be done in one playthrough. And that's ok.

DOUBLE EDIT: The whole "that won't sell" logic. Not convincing, you're just parroting a vague idea without support.

Clarified - Not all character choices are the same. Basically no matter what choices you make with said Characters Samara leaves, Liara never rejoins you permantly, Thane will die soon, Mordin is old, Garrus has a history of leaving obligations, Tali will always put the Flotilla first and Bioware left a huge hint that trouble will occure because of a certian Quarian Admiral, and ect... There's nothing that Shepard can do to stop this from happening and the Time Gap doesn't do Shepard any favors either.

Thinking of forceing them to replay ME1/ME2 to get Squad Members for ME3 is stupid and beyond logic. It's simply bad business and would be a poor decision.

Go die in a fire? Well now we see why Bioware hasen't hired people like you! They would be broke! Not to mention that it would simply encourage more Used Game Sales against them since the DLC isn't needed at all either. Thus all Bioware has done is angered newcomers and casuals to try and appease the less profitable Hardcore that don't mind screwing over everyone but themselves.

Both Genders have LIs. The only difference is that they aren't the same ones but you still get the same number of LIs with about the same depth and those you can bone. Ergo nothing was lost especially since the Romance Cutscenes are short enough already. Outright denying them Squad Members is far more content than a short boning cutscene that's OPTIONAL!

To your Double Edit I point to DA2 and ME2. That is all the evidence you need on what Bioware is doing and what's selling/working for them.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 21 mars 2011 - 05:33 .

[Commander_Adept]

MarqueAZ wrote...

You know what would be cool? If a ME2 member died, you get their 'replacement.' Like, Kal'Reegar for Tali, Sidonis for Garrus, Orianna for Miranda, Kolyat for Thane, etc.

I've thought that too, and it's made me consider purposefully killing Tali.

Legion's just a platform... Could easily come back into another platform, with the same consciousness.

Would that Aresh guy be Jack's replacement? He seemed kinda boring though

Of course, Maelon for Mordin (Or perhaps Daniel)

Grunt though... Hard to say. Wrex can be dead. Okeer is dead. Uvenk certainly wouldn't join you. I think Urz would replace Grunt. Obviously.

Morinth for Samara.

And would Jacob's replacement be his father? How the hell would they explain finding the Gernsback if you didn't do his loyalty mission? Maybe Jacob just relayed the information to TIM before the sm started... I'm not sure I'd want him on my crew. Though that could be the point of keeping Jacob alive.

I like this theory a lot, it "has weight." Even if it is kind of a cop-out, at least you can tell that they planned for it, giving you even more incentive to do the loyalty missions (Who would want Sidonis?).

Also,

Elite Midget wrote...

Yeah.. You expect Bioware to do balancing, voicework, texture work, and the such for a replacement that not everyone has a chance to see?

You mean like Wreav and Wrex? Or Ashley and Kaidan? Half players don't see Kaidan and half don't see Ashley.

Modifié par Commander_Adept, 21 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[Elite Midget]

What weight, exactly?

"Oh, you lost a Character? Here, have a guy/gal with barely any dialouge and plot relevance! Now their just like the Squaddie you lost considering they aren't relevant to the ME3 plot anymore anyway because they can die!"

[Commander_Adept]

Elite Midget wrote...

What weight, exactly?

"Oh, you lost a Character? Here, have a guy/gal with barely any dialouge and plot relevance! Now their just like the Squaddie you lost considering they aren't relevant to the ME3 plot anymore anyway because they can die!"

It has weight mainly because it seems like these characters were introduced for a reason. Having an actor such as Adam Baldwin do a voice for a character that is barely in the game at all seems ridiculous, plus I'd think that Bioware wouldn't screw everyone over who lost a few characters on their playthrough, not knowing what they were doing. It's all about balance, and that seems to be a good way to do it.

[aimlessgun]

Elite Midget wrote...
Clarified - Not all character choices are the same. Basically no matter what choices you make with said Characters Samara leaves, Liara never rejoins you permantly, Thane will die soon, Mordin is old, Garrus has a history of leaving obligations, Tali will always put the Flotilla first and Bioware left a huge hint that trouble will occure because of a certian Quarian Admiral, and ect... There's nothing that Shepard can do to stop this from happening and the Time Gap doesn't do Shepard any favors either.

The logic for Thane, Mordin and Samara is sound. But Tali and Garrus, it's just a possibility. Nothing indicates that they MUST leave. You may think those hints indicate that they will leave, but I was under the impression this discussion was about what we wanted and backing that up as a good/reasonable idea, not what Bioware is most likely to actually do (which is to replace every squaddie).

Thinking of forceing them to replay ME1/ME2 to get Squad Members for ME3 is stupid and beyond logic. It's simply bad business and would be a poor decision.

Er...what? If you start a new ME3 playthrough, you'd get the characters (with an option to specify that they had died, or were not recruited). I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.

Go die in a fire? Well now we see why Bioware hasen't hired people like you!

Smilies indicate humor

To your Double Edit I point to DA2 and ME2. That is all the evidence you need on what Bioware is doing and what's selling/working for them.

Back up the idea that for DA2 it is 'working' for them. Game got a lot of bad press. Some people (including me) didn't buy it because of that. Future games in the franchise might suffer.

Secondly, you're telling me that 3 recurring characters, of which the vast majority of saves will have at least 2 be alive, and which would all be available automatically for new games, would somehow severely hurt the game? Please.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 21 mars 2011 - 06:01 .

[Commander_Adept]

I don't get the bad press DA2 has. True, I haven't completed the game yet, but it seems to be a lot more straightforward/mass effect-like than the first game. Dialogue = far superior to DAO. Which, to me, is a definite improvement

[Elite Midget]

Doesn't matter if it's a possibility. They can die just like any of the others and have no Loopholes.

Despite popular belief Tali andd Garrus aren't any more special than the rest of the ME2 Squaddies and thus shouldn't be given special treatment over them.

If the Default ME3 game had every ME2 Squaddie alive, which it wont, than it would make ME2 even less relevant and would throw importing square out of the window outside a few Cameo's. Not to mention that it would trick newcomers who will beliee the ME2 Squaddies can't die which is false.

Smilies can also mean Evil Intent.

Not as much bad press as many forumers would like to believe. It's also more easy to jump into which was the main reason why some didn't like DA:O. I fully expect it to continue to sell well because of how accessable and streamlined it is. Besides, casuals usually don't care about good stories moreso than fast and fun gameplay that isn't overly punishing.

At least 2 random ME2 Squadies alive. And yes it would and how you don't see how messed up that is makes me wonder something...

[Commander_Adept]

Disregard this post

Modifié par Commander_Adept, 21 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[aimlessgun]

Elite Midget wrote...
Doesn't matter if it's a possibility. They can die just like any of the others and have no Loopholes.

The whole argument is over whether it's ok to have ME3 squaddies that might have died.

Despite popular belief Tali andd Garrus aren't any more special than the rest of the ME2 Squaddies and thus shouldn't be given special treatment over them.

I was directly responding to your arguments about Tali and Garrus, not indicating special treatment.

If the Default ME3 game had every ME2 Squaddie alive, which it wont, than it would make ME2 even less relevant and would throw importing square out of the window outside a few Cameo's. Not to mention that it would trick newcomers who will beliee the ME2 Squaddies can't die which is false.

I don't follow at all why it would throw importing square out the window. Please elaborate. Also, you're telling me recurring characters would make ME2 less relevant? And suddenly flip flopping and saying that the relevance of ME2 is incredibly important?

Additionally, when did I say the default ME3 game would have every ME2 squaddie be alive? 3 squaddies, chosen by the devs. You're telling me the default ME3 game will have less than 3 squaddies from ME2 live?!

Not as much bad press as many forumers would like to believe. It's also more easy to jump into which was the main reason why some didn't like DA:O. I fully expect it to continue to sell well because of how accessable and streamlined it is. Besides, casuals usually don't care about good stories moreso than fast and fun gameplay that isn't overly punishing.

Is there some sort of research data available about 'what casuals want' (what does that word even mean anyways), or is this just more groupthink?

Modifié par aimlessgun, 21 mars 2011 - 06:36 .

[Akizora]

Commander_Adept wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Yeah.. You expect Bioware to do balancing, voicework, texture work, and the such for a replacement that not everyone has a chance to see?

You mean like Wreav and Wrex? Or Ashley and Kaidan? Half players don't see Kaidan and half don't see Ashley.

Ashley and Kaidan have a few lines on Horizon, they don't have an entire recruitment mission, loyalty mission and a bunch of dialogue onboard the ship as well as a possible romance. Wrex has a few lines on Tuchanka and then that's the end of it, again - not a big deal

There are no cost issues with writing a few lines for cameos, but completely writing another character with background, missions and dialogues onboard and off the ship is a cost and space issue. You can only fit so much in a game and they need to allocate their resources and budget where it will be best applicable and accessible by the biggest number of people.

This isn't Baldurs Gate where you have an isometric view, a few textures to design the levels and just text for your characters. Every character is voiced, everything every character says is voiced, you need a character model and animations/textures for every main character (whom typically have unique textures or designs).

Imagine if all 10 original characters in ME2 had alternates, that would basically CUT their loyalty missions to make space for alternate recruitment missions. If you however turn it into being able to recruit just 5 or 6, then you've created content only HALF your audience will access (roughly). Again, waste of money, space and resources.

Contrary to popular belief, Bioware wants to make money and they won't make money by wasting a great deal o their budget and space on optional content for the hardcore audience. The average gamer plays a game once and then its over without replays, I've even read Bioware officials commenting on that from their data gathered from ME2 and DAO.

Modifié par Akizora, 21 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[Aradace]

You can hope there wont be all you want. Fact is, there will be, The End lol. Probably not 12 or whatever like in ME2, but at least 4-6 I'll wager. Because they have to compensate for people "losing" squad mates during the SM. Unless they want to "miraculously" bring back dead squad mates that died in the SM which would be pretty silly IMO because that would pretty much make the SM pointless.

Not trying to be an ass really Im just being realistic. Which, a pessimist is what an optimist, calls a realist.

[Lvl20DM]

I'm hoping that we get a mostly new crew. I enjoy Bioware's characters, and I like what they come up with. I could see 1 or 2 returning from ME or ME2 as squaddies, but I'm hoping that at the very least we get cameos from everybody.

I might be a minority on this opinion, but I think Garrus and Tali would be more interesting if they left Shep's crew and did important things on their own (ie, Garrus becomes a Spectre, Tali becomes an Admiral).

[Elite Midget]

Fact is that they can all die and aren't needed to beat ME3 or get the ME3. You can hope that they'll return all you want but facts are facts. Bioware dropping hints in ME2 doesn't help the hopers at all since they all coincide with them leaving Shepard.

I'll respond to you later aimlessgun. Playing LoL ATM.

[Robhuzz]

Sure I'd like some new squad members (if they're a good bunch) but I'd like some old squaddies to return as well. I think we'll have to wait until after Arrival DLC (only 8 days left! Woooh!!) to see who we've got left to work with. Since an achievement called 'the ultimate sacrifice' has got me a little worried there.



*Small DA2 spoilers ahead!*

But BioWare could also pull a lazerus project on any dead squadmembers, just like they (potentially) did on Leliana and Anders in DA2. 

[jamesp81]

You know, "forum rioting" is probably what caused Garrus and Tali to be back in ME2.  Perhaps we should follow the same model.

edit:

And, to address another claim, everything in ME1 said neither of those two would be back for ME2 (Tali's pilgrimage and Garrus wanting to become a spectre).

I see people in here claiming things as "facts" which are really nothing more than their opinions.

Modifié par jamesp81, 21 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[Akizora]

jamesp81 wrote...

You know, "forum rioting" is probably what caused Garrus and Tali to be back in ME2.  Perhaps we should follow the same model.

I think it's too late for that now The game is likely in the finishing stages of development with bugtesting, polishing and adding some final quests and stuff. The main story and all the focus on it has to be finished by now, at least the pre-production of it which means all thats left is to craft it. You can't make major changes to a building last minute just "because", since it may collapse the building.

[jamesp81]

Akizora wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

You know, "forum rioting" is probably what caused Garrus and Tali to be back in ME2.  Perhaps we should follow the same model.

I think it's too late for that now The game is likely in the finishing stages of development with bugtesting, polishing and adding some final quests and stuff. The main story and all the focus on it has to be finished by now, at least the pre-production of it which means all thats left is to craft it. You can't make major changes to a building last minute just "because", since it may collapse the building.

Maybe so, but it's not as if these things haven't been discussed every since ME2 came out.  If BW does write out most of the ME1 and ME2 characters, they are making a staggering mistake, not to mention ruining an excellent story.

[Elite Midget]

Yeah, it's my opinion and not a fact that Bioware put in...

"After this is over I'm leaving." and it's many variants.

/sarcasm

They would be running the ME3 Story by includeing random ME squaddies in any random order into the plot. It just isn't possible unless everyone is given the same exact dialouge and what defined that characters is thrown at the window to appease those that can't stand their Squaddies growing up and no longer needing to be Shepards gun to be good at anything.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 21 mars 2011 - 07:33 .