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The Illusion of choice


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#51
MelfinaofOutlawStar

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Bmeszaros wrote...

I've said it in other threads on the board that for anybody else that watched the "Rise to Power" Trailer, along with the dev diaries, that it was conveyed that it was an Interactive Framed Narrative.

I found the "Interactive" part to be sorely lacking. I understand if they ultimately want to force you to the overarking theme of a showdown between Mages and Templars, but I thought the way they handled the final act, which was essentially the same no matter who you sided with, was a poor way to begin the climax of the story.


Hell it's like no Biioware employees played Heavy Rain.

#52
MelfinaofOutlawStar

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nicethugbert wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...

If someone is hellebent on mugging you, what choice do you have?

+50 cunning lvl 4 coercion [Persuade]?


So, what you guys are complaining about is that you don't have the choice and outcome you want.  How is that different from other games?  How is that different from life?




We play games to escape life, not to be reminded of it.

#53
AlexXIV

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MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...



If someone is hellebent on mugging you, what choice do you have?

+50 cunning lvl 4 coercion [Persuade]?


So, what you guys are complaining about is that you don't have the choice and outcome you want.  How is that different from other games?  How is that different from life?




We play games to escape life, not to be reminded of it.


Yes, and I could especially do without the reminder :' Hey, don't forget there are serial killers out in real life who kill women and you can't do anything about it.' Great Bioware, thanks for the heads up. I almost didn't think about it for a short while.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 mars 2011 - 10:27 .


#54
MelfinaofOutlawStar

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Seriously, if I'm not playing a game to be a hero, a super-soldier, an advenrturer with impossible cleavage what's the point? I'll stick with fighting natives with my awesome jubblies.

#55
Kingthlayer

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Seems the exact same as Origins IMO. The epilogue at the end makes it seem like your decisions mattered but they really didn't.

The only decision in Origins that matters is the final one and all that's doing right now is ****ing up how best to continue the story. And even now it seems like the DR was the canon choice and the OGB is coming even if it never happened.

#56
AlexXIV

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Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Seems the exact same as Origins IMO. The epilogue at the end makes it seem like your decisions mattered but they really didn't.

The only decision in Origins that matters is the final one and all that's doing right now is ****ing up how best to continue the story. And even now it seems like the DR was the canon choice and the OGB is coming even if it never happened.

Yeah but we didn't know that when the game was new. I at least had the feeling that my Warden changed the world a bit for the better. For a while.

#57
DJ0000

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AlexXIV wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...




If someone is hellebent on mugging you, what choice do you have?

+50 cunning lvl 4 coercion [Persuade]?


So, what you guys are complaining about is that you don't have the choice and outcome you want.  How is that different from other games?  How is that different from life?




We play games to escape life, not to be reminded of it.


Yes, and I could especially do without the reminder :' Hey, don't forget there are serial killers out in real life who kill women and you can't do anything about it.' Great Bioware, thanks for the heads up. I almost didn't think about it for a short while.


I liked that they were brave enough to put that it the game, and it was a good twist, but it did actually horrify me a little.

#58
Chrumpek

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You guys n gals are saying there is no choice for the outcome or the final battle of origins? What?!

First of all you choose your armies, and you got plenty to choose that shape the endgame and the outcome of the aftermath.

You can either have golems or dwarves, elves or werewolfs, tempalrs or mages, humans and legion of dead. You also choose which important NPCs fight by your side in the final battle.

The Knight-commander himself if persuaded is at your side and no he doesn't betray you whether you are an apostate mage or whatever. First enchanter can also be at your side same with the leader of legion of dead etc.

Also you can kill the archdemon sacrificing yourself in the process or sleep with morrigan and have your baby taitned by it's soul... or let alistair sleep with her... or loghain or banish morrigan and let alistair kill archdemon ... or maybe let loghain kill him redeeming himself and becoming hero once again.

Look how many choices you have JUST for the final battle and I probably didn't mention all of them, not even saying about what appears in the aftermath about your companions, races of fereldan and all the other sh*t you can influence and change.

So guys please stop the blabbering about DA:O being linear just because you can't force a abomination gone crazy uldred to side with you against a threat that he doesn't even know exists,

#59
nicethugbert

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MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...

If someone is hellebent on mugging you, what choice do you have?

+50 cunning lvl 4 coercion [Persuade]?


So, what you guys are complaining about is that you don't have the choice and outcome you want.  How is that different from other games?  How is that different from life?




We play games to escape life, not to be reminded of it.


There is only one way to escape life.  And, once you do, you can't play games any more.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 mars 2011 - 03:15 .


#60
ZaroktheImmortal

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nicethugbert wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...


If someone is hellebent on mugging you, what choice do you have?

+50 cunning lvl 4 coercion [Persuade]?


So, what you guys are complaining about is that you don't have the choice and outcome you want.  How is that different from other games?  How is that different from life?




In life you have plenty of choices and outcomes. Or are you suggesting we have no control over our own actions and the results of that? I'll have to tell that one to Charles Manson maybe he can get off those charges on the account that he had no control over his actions. And other games? RPG's usually go on the choice and result thing. Though it's not always implemented as well as it could. I think one of the major problems with Dragon Age 2 is that it makes you think you're making important discussions that will change things but you soon realise that's not the case, because no matter what you decide to do pretty much everything will end up exactly the same.

#61
Unichrone

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I didn't even think it was much of an illusion. ;)

#62
Kaiser Shepard

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Chrumpek wrote...

You guys n gals are saying there is no choice for the outcome or the final battle of origins? What?!

First of all you choose your armies, and you got plenty to choose that shape the endgame and the outcome of the aftermath.

You can either have golems or dwarves, elves or werewolfs, tempalrs or mages, humans and legion of dead. You also choose which important NPCs fight by your side in the final battle.

The Knight-commander himself if persuaded is at your side and no he doesn't betray you whether you are an apostate mage or whatever. First enchanter can also be at your side same with the leader of legion of dead etc.

Also you can kill the archdemon sacrificing yourself in the process or sleep with morrigan and have your baby taitned by it's soul... or let alistair sleep with her... or loghain or banish morrigan and let alistair kill archdemon ... or maybe let loghain kill him redeeming himself and becoming hero once again.

Look how many choices you have JUST for the final battle and I probably didn't mention all of them, not even saying about what appears in the aftermath about your companions, races of fereldan and all the other sh*t you can influence and change.

So guys please stop the blabbering about DA:O being linear just because you can't force a abomination gone crazy uldred to side with you against a threat that he doesn't even know exists,


Of everything you said, I just have to comment on the "you can kill the archdemon sacrificing yourself in the process"; because that is the one choice that can't be properly exported to Awakening. Can't help but agree that it was the biggest, most personal choice at the time, but now I pretty much have to metagame that one into "I need Morrigan at my side during the final battle".

#63
Ladivixxen

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Like many otheres I've seen here, I feel like most of the essence of what I liked about DA1 was clearly lost in translation in DA2. Once I hit 35 quests in Act 1 with no clarity on how things are really going on in my party other than seemingly not having the choices with party interaction and more fights than what made sense, I can say if I wasn't such a completionist I would put this one down. The interaction between you and the characters is just as Awakenings--nonexistent; the so called relationships are drier than sand (I laughed at how Fenris went and figured I did something wrong so I started over...then later decided LAME). I'm not sure what was the agenda. I am for the whole new story line but expected to be more developed. To me, the appeal is 80% gone. I'm basically playing to finish (I kept starting over thinking there was more to the story and more to the romances/character interaction and that I simply just missed something) then going to start my 6th play through on DA1.

#64
nicethugbert

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ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...


If someone is hellebent on mugging you, what choice do you have?

+50 cunning lvl 4 coercion [Persuade]?


So, what you guys are complaining about is that you don't have the choice and outcome you want.  How is that different from other games?  How is that different from life?




In life you have plenty of choices and outcomes. Or are you suggesting we have no control over our own actions and the results of that? I'll have to tell that one to Charles Manson maybe he can get off those charges on the account that he had no control over his actions. And other games? RPG's usually go on the choice and result thing. Though it's not always implemented as well as it could. I think one of the major problems with Dragon Age 2 is that it makes you think you're making important discussions that will change things but you soon realise that's not the case, because no matter what you decide to do pretty much everything will end up exactly the same.


I am saying that the PC is not the only who has choice.  The NPCs have choice to.  Just because you choose something does not mean that the choice results in the outcome you want.  Others are making choices too which may clash with yours.  Nor do people always fully understand their choices.  Choice is illusory in real life too.  But you can't open life in a toolset and see exactly how it's rigged then reload a save and redo what choice there is.

But, the players complaining about the lack of choice in DA2 are really saying that they did not get the results they wanted then saying there is no choice.  If you are playing computer football, you don't get to kill the referee.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 mars 2011 - 10:14 .


#65
RifuloftheWest

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When I personally step back and compare, both Origins and DA2 have essentially the same type of linear story telling. The biggest difference for me was the resulting perception of how my choices affected each game world.

With DA2, the results of my choices seemed very subtle - almost too subtle for me. Given how reactive DA2's framed narrative was supposed to be, I was really surprised at how underwhelming the results felt. Again, I'd like to emphasize the word "felt" - as in it was the perception the game was giving me.

With regards to Origins however, the perception was that my choices had far more tangible results. Do I allow Redcliffe Village to be wiped out? Does the Circle Tower get cleansed with the Right of Anulment? Do I consign a Dalish Clan to death for the limitless vengence of its Keeper? Am I a pragmatist and fight to save the Anvil of the Void, knowing the terrible cost involved in creating golems? I made choices and I knew almost immediately the consequences of those choices.

And there were a lot of choices that seemed to affect what you did or did not have available in your quest to end the Blight. The ones I found to have the most impact were the ones that directly affected which of your companions stayed with you until the end. Depending on circumstance, choices, and your relationship with all but save for one companion, they could end up never joining you, dying by your hand, or leaving you.

Ultimately, yes - whatever the choices in Origins, they still inevitably lead to fighting the Archdemon and ending the Blight. But I perceived an adventure in Origins that had my choices shape the world around me far more than in DA2. I also think that the way the ending in DA2 was relatively abrupt contributed to this. The epilogue slides in Origins and Awakenings, while not the most reactive method, at least gave the player a sense of closure - a way for the player to go: "Oh, so Kaitlyn did manage to get to Denerim...good, she and Teagan should be happy together".

Now, my first playthrough in DA2 was long - I took my time and I definitely noticed the little things here and there that changed from my previous choices and from previous Acts. I am not claiming that choices in DA2 did not have any effect. However, I felt that the Illusion of Choice was better executed in Origins where they seemed all the more tangible. This was especially so in how they contributed to the finale in Origins as opposed to DA2.

The framed narrative had a lot of potential for a reactive world. I think DA2 could have done a better job at utilizing that aspect of this particular story telling method.

Modifié par RifuloftheWest, 23 mars 2011 - 08:36 .


#66
Ladivixxen

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I have to agree with Riful. The feeling of your character having more impact is one of the things that made DA1 attractive, even if in the end the eventual outcome was the Blight. You still had control of the choice of sleeping with Morrigan, living or dying, etc. The player felt more involved.

#67
ZaroktheImmortal

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Ladivixxen wrote...

I have to agree with Riful. The feeling of your character having more impact is one of the things that made DA1 attractive, even if in the end the eventual outcome was the Blight. You still had control of the choice of sleeping with Morrigan, living or dying, etc. The player felt more involved.


Yeah, I agree. As fun as it was to play dragon age 2 it didn't seem like I had much control over anything that happened. No matter what you do, someone close to you will be kidnapped, even if you were siding with the mages, which will end up in you fighting the very people who wanted Mages and Templars to get along. Nothing you do really changes things even if a choice seems like it should, somehow it will work around to getting to the same place.

#68
Gavinthelocust

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Rather than offer you the illusion of free choice, I will take the liberty of choosing for you...if and when your time comes round again.
Other than the amusing title this thread is no different from the rest.

#69
ZaroktheImmortal

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Gavinthelocust wrote...

Rather than offer you the illusion of free choice, I will take the liberty of choosing for you...if and when your time comes round again.
Other than the amusing title this thread is no different from the rest.


...right.

#70
christminded

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*Spoilers Inc - Read at Your Peril*

You can convince Grace to go back to the Circle, in which case she'll get pissed, start a rebellion (that you can't take part in, even if the logic of your character and previous choices dictate that you would most likely help), become a blood mage, kill Thrask (a strong pro-mage templar who tried to help her) and try to kill you (and your brother/sister).

Or, you can have Varric create a fantastic lie to convince the Templars outside that Grace and the others are dead, which the Templars believe. If you do this, the Templars will end up catching Grace anyway, take her back to the Circle, she'll get pissed, start a rebellion (that you can't take part in, even if the logic of your character and previous choices dictate that you would most likely help), become a blood mage, kill Thrask (a strong pro-mage templar who tried to help her) and try to kill you (and your brother/sister).

But wait, you can actually directly defend Grace from the overzealous and brutal Templars in this scene and kill said Templars, allowing Grace to escape with a head start, no phylactery, and no pursuant Templars anywhere near. If you do this, the Templars will still end up catching Grace anyway, take her back to the Circle, she'll get pissed, start a rebellion (that you can't take part in, even if the logic of your character and previous choices dictate that you would most likely help), become a blood mage, kill Thrask (a strong pro-mage templar who tried to help her) and try to kill you (and your brother/sister).

*Spoilers Concluded*

I guess I can't really fault Bioware, though. Just like the logic of the story (and all the mages you encounter), they could easily just say that demons made them do it.

Modifié par christminded, 01 avril 2011 - 07:00 .