i may be completely off track here... i would definately love some help working it all out.
okay, so i was on another forum discussion that was talking about morrigan, and who/what flemeth may be when this thought process started. now, i may be waaay off base, but i think i'm onto something here... this is a pretty lengthy thought process, so bear with me...
okay, so someone mentioned something about how flemeth seemed to be a player who seemed to stay in the middle of EVERYTHING, but continues to basically try to stay neutral in it all. this reasoning made me think of the tale merill told about fen'harel (aka the dread wolf). i started looking up info on it on the da wiki and realized IT'S ALL CONNECTED!
okay, please forgive me if i confuse anyone because i'm still working this all out in my head... imo, all religions (real or da) are connected in some form. they tend to have similar basic principles, they are just all interpreted differently (sometimes to extremes). i believe the same truth applies to the religion in the dragon age games.
consider this ~ the 2 main gods for the dalish are Elgar'nan (the god of fatherhood and of vengance) and Mythal (the goddess of motherhood and justice) *side note: coincidental anders reference of some sort?*
then, they have The Forgotten Ones ~ who represent terror, malice, spite, and pestilence. in between both groups is Fen'harel (dread wolf). the elven gods seem to show striking resemblences to the other religions...
i think that maybe Elgar'nan=The Maker, Mythal=Andraste, Forgotten Ones =Rock Wraiths, The Stone, or just Archdemon in general? (unsure on this one... we know very little about the deep roads, but i am fairly certain i'm on the right path), and Dread Wolf=Flemeth. are you following me so far?
i think it comes down to the fact that The Forgotten Ones have found a way out, The Mother & Father are still stuck in their realms, and The Dread Wolf (Flemeth) is trying to fix the mess by either freeing the good guys(Mother/Father) or figuring out a way to trap The Forgotten Ones again... to be cont.
I THINK I'M ONTO SOMETHING MAJOR HERE WITH THE MAIN STORYLINE!!
Débuté par
mommachay
, mars 20 2011 07:53
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#2
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 07:57
Rangerkillroy
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The Dalish go out of their way to explain that their gods and "The Maker" are two different things. While they acknowledge "The Maker's" existence, they follow completely separate deities.
#3
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 06:28
mommachay
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i understand that, but imo all the religions cannot be right. either some of the religions are completely wrong, or, as i said before, all of the religions come from the same basis.
is it impossible to believe that after centuries and centurie of religious stories that many of them got twisted, misinterpreted, or just simply changed in order for someone to gain a basis for their own beliefs/gain? i think that they are all interconnected somehow.
is it impossible to believe that after centuries and centurie of religious stories that many of them got twisted, misinterpreted, or just simply changed in order for someone to gain a basis for their own beliefs/gain? i think that they are all interconnected somehow.
#4
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 07:37
vigna
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I see...sorta Greek vs Roman or Christianity/judaism/islam.....
Interesting. Flemeth would be like a Loki/trickster type then?
Interesting. Flemeth would be like a Loki/trickster type then?
#5
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 07:45
Artillis22
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Very interesting thoughts and I agree. It would be cool if they put that much thought into the story and were it is going. But with EA's track record of trying to push games out the door before they are sufficiently ready we shouldn't get our hopes up.
Modifié par Artillis22, 20 mars 2011 - 07:45 .
#6
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 07:54
Ziggeh
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I thought that the reference was a little too explicit. That they might as well have winked, made witch gestures (broomstick, pointy hat. Though that could be mistaken for a dunce on a bike) with their hands and mouthed "flemeth" while discussing it.
I think any setting wide changes are more likely to come at the hands of normal people and/or generally mysterious elements ("A new type of lyrium you say? Bet that's worth investigat....no? Oh.") than breaking out the true nature of the world.
I think any setting wide changes are more likely to come at the hands of normal people and/or generally mysterious elements ("A new type of lyrium you say? Bet that's worth investigat....no? Oh.") than breaking out the true nature of the world.
#7
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 07:59
Kenshen
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Won't say you are wrong however I don't think Flemeth is trying to fix anything. IMO she is just waiting for everything to fall apart and then step in to become the next overlord. Also I keep wanting to think Flemeth is what Morrigan was trying to create, the soul of an old god.
Personally I am not a religious type so I don't buy any of it in game either. Same as our world in the DA world the things that can not be explained must be divine? Will take more than that to convince me.
Personally I am not a religious type so I don't buy any of it in game either. Same as our world in the DA world the things that can not be explained must be divine? Will take more than that to convince me.
#8
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:00
naledgeborn
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I'm not the only who's been saying that Flemeth is the Dread Wolf. It's come up a couple of times in the DAO forums. I think Flemeth is an abomination and host for Fen'Harel. Morrigan birthing Urthemiel is just another one of her schemes.
#10
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:09
MColes
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The Truth is..
They're all the same dieties. Wheny ou give the ring to Merrill and ask her for the story, you can see certain.. intricacies between the different religions. The Elven Gods, the Old Gods, and the Maker. The "Good gods" the "bad gods" and Fen'Harel. The Maker is Fen'harel.
Read up on Fen'Harel and you will see. The elves consider him the bringer of nightmares... And considering That all humans dream, passing through the Fade, and that is where the spirits and demons come from. And they believe they were created BY the Maker.
Elven Pantheon
Forgotten Ones (Old gods..)
Fen'Harel (The Maker)
gg
They're all the same dieties. Wheny ou give the ring to Merrill and ask her for the story, you can see certain.. intricacies between the different religions. The Elven Gods, the Old Gods, and the Maker. The "Good gods" the "bad gods" and Fen'Harel. The Maker is Fen'harel.
Read up on Fen'Harel and you will see. The elves consider him the bringer of nightmares... And considering That all humans dream, passing through the Fade, and that is where the spirits and demons come from. And they believe they were created BY the Maker.
Elven Pantheon
Forgotten Ones (Old gods..)
Fen'Harel (The Maker)
gg
#11
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:21
Blacklash93
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They don't acknowledge it.Rangerkillroy wrote...
The Dalish go out of their way to explain that their gods and "The Maker" are two different things. While they acknowledge "The Maker's" existence, they follow completely separate deities.
It's just that their legends don't contradict the existance of the maker.
#12
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:23
mommachay
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here are a few more interesting points i've come across ~
* the primeval thiag in da2 is a huge mystery that is obviously important. the wiki and the codex entry state that it was built so long ago that the shaper has no memory of it. it seems to be somewhat "magically built" even though dwarves can't use magic. it was built long before the first blight.
*during the fall of arlathlan the people of the cadash thaig took in some of thr dalish refugees and they got along peacefully until kal'hirol attacked out of fear that this would cause issues between the dwarves and the tevinter imperium.
*after the imperium invaded elvhenan and enslaved some of the people it is believed that elvhenan was either looted, or that some elves joined the imperium and brought their artifacts with them.
*elven slaves were amongst the most faithful followers of andraste's uprising against the imperium. they were rewarded by being granted land in the dales.
*the chantry was the cause of the elves second downfall, even though they were granted favor by andraste.
*the forgotten ones , along with the elven pantheon, were trapped away from the world around the fall of arlathan (before the first blight ~ coincidence that this was also around the time that elves were known to be in the cadash thaig?)
*coincidence that the chantry's 'old gods' and the elves gods were both have legends of imprisonment/being shut away from the world? in chantry lore the maker turned away from the world after trapping the old gods in eternal prisons beneath the earth.
*the imperium used magic, demons, and dragons during their attack on arlathan. the chantry's old gods were known to be dragons. coincidence? also it is believed that it was shortly after this time period that the maker turned away and the elven gods were locked in their realms by the dread wolf. coincidence?
*the eluvian was originally thought to be made by the imperium. it/they are actually of dalish origin.
*the chantry is a young religion in the scheme of it all. drakon (who fought the second blight) founded it.
*to prove my point about twisting religious beliefs ~ the chantry believes andraste was the makers bride. the imperial chantry believes that andraste was simply a mortal woman. also, the chantry belief of "magic must serve man, not rule over him" is interpreted very differently in the imperium's chantry. there, it means magic should not rule the minds of other men. otherwise, magic should benefit the rulere of men as much as possible.
* the primeval thiag in da2 is a huge mystery that is obviously important. the wiki and the codex entry state that it was built so long ago that the shaper has no memory of it. it seems to be somewhat "magically built" even though dwarves can't use magic. it was built long before the first blight.
*during the fall of arlathlan the people of the cadash thaig took in some of thr dalish refugees and they got along peacefully until kal'hirol attacked out of fear that this would cause issues between the dwarves and the tevinter imperium.
*after the imperium invaded elvhenan and enslaved some of the people it is believed that elvhenan was either looted, or that some elves joined the imperium and brought their artifacts with them.
*elven slaves were amongst the most faithful followers of andraste's uprising against the imperium. they were rewarded by being granted land in the dales.
*the chantry was the cause of the elves second downfall, even though they were granted favor by andraste.
*the forgotten ones , along with the elven pantheon, were trapped away from the world around the fall of arlathan (before the first blight ~ coincidence that this was also around the time that elves were known to be in the cadash thaig?)
*coincidence that the chantry's 'old gods' and the elves gods were both have legends of imprisonment/being shut away from the world? in chantry lore the maker turned away from the world after trapping the old gods in eternal prisons beneath the earth.
*the imperium used magic, demons, and dragons during their attack on arlathan. the chantry's old gods were known to be dragons. coincidence? also it is believed that it was shortly after this time period that the maker turned away and the elven gods were locked in their realms by the dread wolf. coincidence?
*the eluvian was originally thought to be made by the imperium. it/they are actually of dalish origin.
*the chantry is a young religion in the scheme of it all. drakon (who fought the second blight) founded it.
*to prove my point about twisting religious beliefs ~ the chantry believes andraste was the makers bride. the imperial chantry believes that andraste was simply a mortal woman. also, the chantry belief of "magic must serve man, not rule over him" is interpreted very differently in the imperium's chantry. there, it means magic should not rule the minds of other men. otherwise, magic should benefit the rulere of men as much as possible.
#13
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:24
Vandicus
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I bet the Sandalian prophecy is related to this.
#14
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:27
Blacklash93
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No, it's not the truth.MColes wrote...
The Truth is..
They're all the same dieties. Wheny ou give the ring to Merrill and ask her for the story, you can see certain.. intricacies between the different religions. The Elven Gods, the Old Gods, and the Maker. The "Good gods" the "bad gods" and Fen'Harel. The Maker is Fen'harel.
Read up on Fen'Harel and you will see. The elves consider him the bringer of nightmares... And considering That all humans dream, passing through the Fade, and that is where the spirits and demons come from. And they believe they were created BY the Maker.
Elven Pantheon
Forgotten Ones (Old gods..)
Fen'Harel (The Maker)
gg
There are multiple timeline issues with that... Not to mention that there are only 3 forgotten ones (as far as we know) and 7 old gods.
#15
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:28
Ziggeh
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My god, there really IS something nasty in the woodshed (at cold comfort farm)?Vandicus wrote...
I bet the Sandalian prophecy is related to this.
Modifié par Ziggeh, 20 mars 2011 - 08:29 .
#16
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 08:29
Blacklash93
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It's worth noting that the first conscious being in elven myths is "The Sun"; the father of Elgar'nan'.
Seeing as the maker is always symbolized as the sun, I think it may be him.
Seeing as the maker is always symbolized as the sun, I think it may be him.
#17
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:01
GunMoth
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Here is some butchered information I have retained from my archaeology class:
Objectively, the way religious belief systems work in the archaeological and anthropological study is that based on population density, an entire culture's belief system can be predicted.
-Bands and Tribes believe in pagan-esque religions (worshiping the world around them. They have to hunt for their food so they see themselves as equals to animals and the world around them.)
-Chiefdoms worship their ancestors and mild polytheism mixed with pagan religion. (Their multiple gods and goddesses will often times take the form of an animal. We see this in early Sumerian culture and settlements around Iran.) This would be the Dalish. They often move around once resources have been depleted and will make circular rounds once resources have grown back.
-Then we have pure polytheistic and monotheistic religions that occur when a society has become completely dependent on agriculture and is completely sedentary.
Unfortunately for us, Dragon Age has elements like the fade, magic, and other unexplainable phenomena that makes religion less of a cultural study and more.. real? There is tangible evidence of the existence of something or some world that defies the physical laws of Thedas.
However, I do believe that the religious point of views are different because of their cultures. Polytheism and Monotheism tend to be extremely self centered religions that focus on idols being human or taking human form. However, you could say the same thing about Pagan religions not acknowledging the cognitive difference between man and animal. Going back to your original point, I think they ARE both right, but its just two interpretations of the same basic concept.
There is a higher power, and it has become disconnected from the people of Thedas somehow. I'm not sure what roll Flemeth plays. But I guess we can sit around and assume. O:
Objectively, the way religious belief systems work in the archaeological and anthropological study is that based on population density, an entire culture's belief system can be predicted.
-Bands and Tribes believe in pagan-esque religions (worshiping the world around them. They have to hunt for their food so they see themselves as equals to animals and the world around them.)
-Chiefdoms worship their ancestors and mild polytheism mixed with pagan religion. (Their multiple gods and goddesses will often times take the form of an animal. We see this in early Sumerian culture and settlements around Iran.) This would be the Dalish. They often move around once resources have been depleted and will make circular rounds once resources have grown back.
-Then we have pure polytheistic and monotheistic religions that occur when a society has become completely dependent on agriculture and is completely sedentary.
Unfortunately for us, Dragon Age has elements like the fade, magic, and other unexplainable phenomena that makes religion less of a cultural study and more.. real? There is tangible evidence of the existence of something or some world that defies the physical laws of Thedas.
However, I do believe that the religious point of views are different because of their cultures. Polytheism and Monotheism tend to be extremely self centered religions that focus on idols being human or taking human form. However, you could say the same thing about Pagan religions not acknowledging the cognitive difference between man and animal. Going back to your original point, I think they ARE both right, but its just two interpretations of the same basic concept.
There is a higher power, and it has become disconnected from the people of Thedas somehow. I'm not sure what roll Flemeth plays. But I guess we can sit around and assume. O:
#18
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:22
Moorino
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The beauty and brilliance of Dragon Age is that this lore can be talked about as such. In my opinion I could see the "Maker" as Fen'Harel what better way to be the trickster lord by tricking all the humans of thedas into worth-shipping him.
Going from Merrill's story as well, if the Old Gods and Elven Gods are related. Either the 7 both being interchangeable or the Old Gods being the forgotten Ones (As one of the above posters said though, lore says there's only three... there may be more we just don't know but then again neither do the dalish, As they've lost near all their history!) Then the Maker/Fen'harol's trick is even more devious.
What if...
human's and elves were living relatively peacefully (which they were) until Fen'harol's trick of trapping the Gods in the heavens and the abyss. When that happens... Tevinter lose there old Gods the elves lose their immortality. Elves blame the human... isolation... humans expand etc then finally War.
Arthalan is then sent into the "abyss".
Anyway that being said, Tevinter now the only Empire in Thedas. Its magisters are getting very powerful so Maker/Fan'harel decides to play another "trick" to avoid competition. Potentially the magisters could of wanted their Gods power (the same Gods underground banished/tricked by the maker/Fan'harel) so Fan'harel gives them the power to find their old Gods, so they can hear their "Old song" and gain their "Power". The dread wolf "blesses" them with his touch or bite and... taints them.
First Darkspawn.
Or it could be someone else. either way these discussions are amazing.
Going from Merrill's story as well, if the Old Gods and Elven Gods are related. Either the 7 both being interchangeable or the Old Gods being the forgotten Ones (As one of the above posters said though, lore says there's only three... there may be more we just don't know but then again neither do the dalish, As they've lost near all their history!) Then the Maker/Fen'harol's trick is even more devious.
What if...
human's and elves were living relatively peacefully (which they were) until Fen'harol's trick of trapping the Gods in the heavens and the abyss. When that happens... Tevinter lose there old Gods the elves lose their immortality. Elves blame the human... isolation... humans expand etc then finally War.
Arthalan is then sent into the "abyss".
Anyway that being said, Tevinter now the only Empire in Thedas. Its magisters are getting very powerful so Maker/Fan'harel decides to play another "trick" to avoid competition. Potentially the magisters could of wanted their Gods power (the same Gods underground banished/tricked by the maker/Fan'harel) so Fan'harel gives them the power to find their old Gods, so they can hear their "Old song" and gain their "Power". The dread wolf "blesses" them with his touch or bite and... taints them.
First Darkspawn.
Or it could be someone else. either way these discussions are amazing.
#19
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:34
mommachay
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@aryon69 i agree to a point. i just worded my thoughts wrong. i think flemeth is searching for power. the solution for her (if she is basically the dread wolf, as i am thinking) is to take out the other gods. when the other gods are unable to influence men and she is the only one still able to walk amongst them i think that would be absolute power for her.
#20
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:35
Vandicus
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Ziggeh wrote...
My god, there really IS something nasty in the woodshed (at cold comfort farm)?Vandicus wrote...
I bet the Sandalian prophecy is related to this.
Not that exactly. He actually makes a prophecy about magic coming back to the world and how things will be like they were before. Very ... interesting I guess?
"One day the magic will come back. all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see"
#21
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:40
Moorino
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ooh... also another major point I forgot to put, flemeth could potentially be andraste/the maker/Fan'harel. There's nothing to say flemeth could be all of them, shes already placed a part of herself in a amulet. Fan'harel also could usurped Elgar'nan's plays as "the maker" playing another trick. A very tricky God or Goddess. Depending on who he/she wishes to be.
#22
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:43
mommachay
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i love that the world they have created is vast and detailed enough that there can be discussions such as this. so many games these days are very one dimensional. it is nice to have a storyline with so much lore, history, and legend. i know bioware has made mistakes along the line, but considering the competition i think this is one of the best by far.
#23
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:50
AlexXIV
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I don't think the Maker is involved with the Chantry or Andraste. The Maker left long before even the rise of the Tevinter Imperium. Why he left and where to is unknown. The Chanty uses the old faith of the Maker for their own goals. I don't think the Maker if he returned would be very happy about the Chantry and probably be the first blow them up like Anders did.
Simple reason is that they are arrogant and self-righteous. They speak for the Maker even though the Maker has not spoken to one of them in thousands of years. Honestly if I was in the Maker's shoes and returned to the world after a long time and saw what the Chantry done to it, and in no less than my name, I'd be pissed.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the mages were his chosen, gifted children. After all the Maker created the fade and spirits and men, so who is to say that mages are not what the Maker wants them to be? Like every other of His creation.
Simple reason is that they are arrogant and self-righteous. They speak for the Maker even though the Maker has not spoken to one of them in thousands of years. Honestly if I was in the Maker's shoes and returned to the world after a long time and saw what the Chantry done to it, and in no less than my name, I'd be pissed.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the mages were his chosen, gifted children. After all the Maker created the fade and spirits and men, so who is to say that mages are not what the Maker wants them to be? Like every other of His creation.
#24
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:53
AlexXIV
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I must say I agree. I couldn't name a fantasy realm and story that interested me more than Dragon Age. It does have a very good mix of dark and light, wonders and down to earth. Now they just need to stop rush out games.mommachay wrote...
i love that the world they have created is vast and detailed enough that there can be discussions such as this. so many games these days are very one dimensional. it is nice to have a storyline with so much lore, history, and legend. i know bioware has made mistakes along the line, but considering the competition i think this is one of the best by far.
#25
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 09:55
Ziggeh
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I'm not sure they even have a woodshed. But maybe it was the potting shed. Or the bike shed.Vandicus wrote...
Not that exactly.
