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[CRISIS1717]

After playing the game I considered that Flemeth was the Dread Wolf.

The Dread Wolf seems to be a mixture of Fenrir and Loki (Loki was always a trickster and also a shape changer) and if it's true the Dread Wolf remained in the world and Flemeth isn't human, then possibly they could be the same.

I very much doubt the Maker and Andraste are part of the elvish pantheon though. 

Modifié par CRISIS1717, 20 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[mommachay]

i don't think anyone is saying that the maker and andraste are part of the elven religion. what i was saying is that both religions have the same foundation. i just think that the chantry and the elves have taken different interpretations of the sam basic principles. it just seems odd to me how when you consider the elven lore and the chantry lore as similar/same how easily many of the key components of the story line start to fit together.

[thebatmanreborn]

Some interesting theories. I think its interesting that Morrigan constantly turns into a wolf/dog in Origins (epilogue-she is a wolf in the bar. Also, a deleted feature in the game had you betraying Morrigan to the templars and she fights them and turns into a wolf to escape) and yet Flemeth always turns into a dragon. If Flemeth was the Dread Wolf, wouldn't she turn into a wolf and not a dragon? Could Morrigan be the Dread Wolf? And Flemeth is something...a bit more sinister than a mere trickster?

[Zenstrive]

I have good speculations in my blog.

Basically, it goes like this: the dread wolf trapped other gods, chained them underground and trapped their souls in the golden city. The old gods whisper to the Tevinter Dreamers and they get into the golden city and tried to unleash the chains, but they got tainted by the chains instead and become corrupted beings who are chained to the old gods. The dread wolf, wary of potentials that mages posses, manipulate andraste, a powerful mage. The dread wofl then thwart the imperium, make the chantry based on The Maker (aka herself), lock out the mages, and make the templar order to subdue mages. The dread wolf then took a rest in the wilds while teaching her daughters and take over them to have long life.

The Dread Wolf is Flemeth. The Maker is Flemeth. Asha'bellanar is Flemeth. Flemeth is everything.

As to who first created the fade and the physical world? Probably a real Supreme Being.

[Moorino]

Precisely mommachay, again I agree. It is just a name for a God, do they have cause take offense to being called one thing or another? A commonality between religions. Both religions have banishment of the (Old) Gods, one by Fen'Harel (Elven) and one by the Maker (Chantry).

As I posted earlier flemeth being Fen'Harel and taking Elgar'nan (Banished to the heavens therefore he cannot listen or speak to his children) place as the Maker and making humanity worship you for being something your not is something a trickster God would do.

If it isn't Flemeth though I can still see Fen'Harel/Maker being one and the same.

[mommachay]

off topic, but does anyone else find it strange that the very first wardens were originally soldiers for the imperium?

[mommachay]

is it possible that arlathan is the same as the chantry's golden city?

[Nimander]

Why would Arlathan be the Chantry's Golden City? It was an elven city, and people actually saw it. That'd be just ... odd. It's not like it's mythical. It was an elven city that was destroyed 'cause the elves were stupid.

[TexasToast712]

I THINK YOU LIKE TO YELL.


On topic..............

Flemeth is a uncorrupted Old God. Period.

[mommachay]

@nimander ~ if you read the previous discussions we were simply discussing if it were possible that the chantry lore and elven lore are somehow interconnected. i don't think anyone has said that they believe beyond a doubt that this is all true. like many other posts we are simply speculating. i am just curious if it is possible for the two to be connected somehow. the elves know very little about their history. where does it show absolute proof that it existed just as the elves say, other than in stories? this city was built looong before elves, humans, and dwarves coexisted. it was around before the gods (elven or chantry) turned away from the people. history and religion are nothing more than interpretation. i bet if you read a **** history book about ww2 and compared it to an american history book the stories would be very different... all i'm asking is could it be possible that either the elves, the imperium, the chantry, or all of the above somehow got it wrong?

[mommachay]

@texastoast ~ well bless your heart! you're never wrong and slightly rude. point taken ;D

[Wedger]

could that idol we found in the deep roads be connected to the taint/darkspawn?

[TexasToast712]

mommachay wrote...

@texastoast ~ well bless your heart! you're never wrong and slightly rude. point taken ;D

I approve of this sarcasm.

[mommachay]

hmmm apparently you can't say **** on these boards... good to know. i guess i should rephrase it as "i bet if you read a history book that was written by those guys who thought concentration camps were the solution to the world's problems and compared it to an american history book the stories and 'history' would be very different."

[MasterSolo]

I don't know if this was said(too lazy to read everything), but it is extremely unlikely that Mythal is Andraste since, the elves worshiped their gods long before they encountered humans in Thedas, thus long before Andraste even existed. The fact that Flemeth might be Andraste, well, it might be true, but again highly unlikely. Some considered Andraste to be just a powerful mage, and not the Maker's chosen, that was leading the barbarians to conquer the Tevinter Imperium, for lust of power, which might lead some to think that she's in fact Flemeth, since she also desired power. But if that were true, then where did the spreading of the "Chant of light" come from, and how did Andraste become known for spreading the "Maker's Will". Also if she desired power, there's really no reason why she would want to release the elves from slavery.

However I do believe that there might be some connection between "The Old Gods", that the Tevinter Imperium worshiped, The Maker and The forgotten Ones and Elgar'nan. The Maker/Elgar'nan created the spirits/the other elven Gods. Then he created Thedas, The Old Gods/Forgotten ones taught people magic, and might have suggested that they overthrow the Maker/Elgar'nan. But this might also be just a coincidence. The Old Gods might be the same things as the Forgotten Ones, but it seems that The Maker and Elgar'nan are 2 different entites.

Edit: If you think about it the elven pantheon might have been just the leaders of the elves(since the elves used to live eternally), responsible for certain parts of their society. Like Elgar'nan and Mythal were leaders, Ghilan'nain was responsible for the Halla, Andruil was the leader of the hunters/military, June was the leader of the crafters/trading etc. They all might have been created, by the Maker(making him a true God), and Andraste was spreading the Maker's Will, and saved them from slavery, when they were slaves for the Imperium. But again, this is just speculation.

Modifié par MasterSolo, 21 mars 2011 - 05:03 .

[L6-636536]

Dread Wolf being Flameth is very likely especailly since shes such a big player and everything she does is for self preservation towards some unforeseen goal even Morrigan doesnt believe shes human, a demon or even a old god.
Mayhap the Elves created her? Mayhap the Tevinter Imperium created her at the crux of their power. Andraste The Makers Beloved Bride was burned at the flame at the end of her task from betrayal but really who would inspire that kinda treason especially something so silly as jealousy who would defy the Maker?
Another thing is that even the Dalish recognize her as a deity of sorts and even Flameth tells Merrill not to compliment or respect her like the other elves would. Either way she knows far too much of the Darkspawn to boot, even what their goal is and how they go about it.
Plus its a well known fact the Tevinter Imperium worshipped their 'false dragon gods' which if you read the Codex where manifested lies from Demons from the fade.
Also why would the Maker gates be shut? And how could his own sanctum become so corrupt from something so insignificant.

[Legbiter]

Isn't Flemeth just some mage/abomination upstart who is trying to ascend to some sort of godhood via the chaos she's sowing?

It'll at any rate be interesting to see how Bioware will handle the Sandalian Prophecy.

[Hank_Da_Tank]

Flemeth might be the first mage? She isn't the dread wolf because the elves have another name for her --> Asha'belannar. She is also an abomination according to Morrigan, maybe the first mage or something? maybe the first human? or an abomination containing the spirit of a old god/elven god... or who knows what. Anyways, I definitely predict that Dragon Age 3 will feature a return of Morrigan, the Champion, the Warden, Lelianna, Cassandra and maybe even Varric and the Qunari.

[MasterSolo]

Legbiter wrote...

Isn't Flemeth just some mage/abomination upstart who is trying to ascend to some sort of godhood via the chaos she's sowing?

It'll at any rate be interesting to see how Bioware will handle the Sandalian Prophecy.

That would be interesting indeed. Although, things seem to point out, that he was overexposed to lyrium, granting him some gifts(enchanting, maybe some spells, also some prophetic abilities). Then again he does say he's hearing some old woman in his head(Flemeth?). Either way since Bodhan and Sandal were vendors and companions in your journeys in DA and DA2, they'll probably be the same in DA3. Bodahn says that they' re leaving Kirkwall for Orlais, and will be serving the Orlesian empress, so guess where DA3 will take place.

[MasterSolo]

Hank_Da_Tank wrote...

Flemeth might be the first mage? She isn't the dread wolf because the elves have another name for her --> Asha'belannar. She is also an abomination according to Morrigan, maybe the first mage or something? maybe the first human? or an abomination containing the spirit of a old god/elven god... or who knows what. Anyways, I definitely predict that Dragon Age 3 will feature a return of Morrigan, the Champion, the Warden, Lelianna, Cassandra and maybe even Varric and the Qunari.

I doubt her to be the first mage, since the first mages are know to be the imperium magisters, specifically Archon Thalsian, taught by the Old God Dumat, some saying even he was taught by the elves.

Modifié par MasterSolo, 21 mars 2011 - 05:26 .

[Hank_Da_Tank]

just speculating

[Valus]

mommachay wrote...

i may be completely off track here... i would definately love some help working it all out.

okay, so i was on another forum discussion that was talking about morrigan, and who/what flemeth may be when this thought process started. now, i may be waaay off base, but i think i'm onto something here... this is a pretty lengthy thought process, so bear with me...

okay, so someone mentioned something about how flemeth seemed to be a player who seemed to stay in the middle of EVERYTHING, but continues to basically try to stay neutral in it all. this reasoning made me think of the tale merill told about fen'harel (aka the dread wolf). i started looking up info on it on the da wiki and realized IT'S ALL CONNECTED!

okay, please forgive me if i confuse anyone because i'm still working this all out in my head... imo, all religions (real or da) are connected in some form. they tend to have similar basic principles, they are just all interpreted differently (sometimes to extremes). i believe the same truth applies to the religion in the dragon age games.

consider this ~ the 2 main gods for the dalish are Elgar'nan (the god of fatherhood and of vengance) and Mythal (the goddess of motherhood and justice) *side note: coincidental anders reference of some sort?*
then, they have The Forgotten Ones ~ who represent terror, malice, spite, and pestilence. in between both groups is Fen'harel (dread wolf). the elven gods seem to show striking resemblences to the other religions...

i think that maybe Elgar'nan=The Maker, Mythal=Andraste, Forgotten Ones =Rock Wraiths, The Stone, or just Archdemon in general? (unsure on this one... we know very little about the deep roads, but i am fairly certain i'm on the right path), and Dread Wolf=Flemeth. are you following me so far?

i think it comes down to the fact that The Forgotten Ones have found a way out, The Mother & Father are still stuck in their realms, and The Dread Wolf (Flemeth) is trying to fix the mess by either freeing the good guys(Mother/Father) or figuring out a way to trap The Forgotten Ones again... to be cont.

Well, regretfully you aren't the first person to think Flemmeth=Dread wolf. They certainly share many personality traits if you believe the legends. When Flemmeth refers to herself as 'a fly in the ointment' I always think of this.

While it's certainly possible and even alot more plausible than most assumptions as to what/who she is I don't think so. There are moments where she has very real human attributes and not exactly something we would attribute to gods (although the maker takes himself a bride ala Greek Pantheon so who knows).

Not to mention she apparently is designed to be neither good nor evil, at least not in the traditional sense and also to be a master manipulator in the world's mythos. These are generic qualities and should probably be taken as such. I think Flemeth is pretty cool as she is. Not entirely certain she needs to be anything more.