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Why is Bioware so against open world or "sandbox" games?


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#1
Iwasdrunkbro

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Im posting this in the Dragon Age 2 section because I wish to bring up arguements specifically towards that particular universe which could have made the DA world so much better than it currently is (or ever has been) by simply opening things up a tad more. Ive played through Mass Effect (1 and 2), but I think the fantasy setting would be a much better example to use because I can call on references like Oblivion and Skyrim (yes I know its not out yet) when need be.

Lets be honest here, the model on how Bioware games are made hasn't really changed much since, well... ever? Sure there are distinct differences between Neverwinter Nights and Mass Effect, but throughout every game we've always had the illusion that we're in an open world when we're really not. Everything is based on a variety of small zones that need to be loaded everytime the player requests it. This was a good model to have when game development was first being experimented with, but now its really showing the reasons why its so flawed. I shall explain.

1: The world around you is dead.

The main reason why games like Oblivion do so well is because there is a living, breathing world that is open to the player from the moment the disc loads up. It keeps the game interesting and makes people want to actually go out and explore this virtual world to see just what it holds. Humans by our very nature are curious and that thirst needs to be sated to keep people entertained longer than what is permited or even designed by the developers. Games like Red Dead Redemption or GTA rely heavily on this model because, lets be honest, Rockstar doesnt have the writers that Bioware does (yes thats a compliment)... but nor should they! They have mastered their own little niche and really paved the way for games like Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas. How so?

So who here remembers GTA 3? Now if you went back and played that game now you probably wouldnt be that entertained by it because you've either A: already played through it enough to make your eyes bleed or B: you're used to much more advanced games the use the same system better (GTA 4?). The point is GTA 3 was really the game that gave Rockstar the name that they have today. Its equal to what Doom is to Call of Duty when talking about an open world "sand box" game. Why was it so successful? Because it gave the player, really for the first time, the freedom to break off from the main story of a game and do whatever the heck they wanted. In Oblivion for instance, I cant go around mowing down prostitutes in a car, but I can run around and find things that are interesting including quests that I wouldnt have seen otherwise... and thats an explorers dream! At this point however, we're getting into the difference between an RPG and an action game with the same design structure so Ill stop.

2: There is NO Freedom!

We play Bioware games because of the seemingly endless outcomes that any one decision could have on the world around us. Bioware, much like Rockstar, has become masters of their niche. The dialogue system that they use is unique to them and a few other very poorly designed RPGs. Regardless, the point is there is only so much FREEDOM that those choices can include. For instance, you have maybe 4 possible outcomes for any given dialogue yes? Well, what happens when the player has exhausted those 4 options (which many players do on a single play through by reloading saves)? In an open world he/she would go out and explore.. but if you're still using a system that doesnt allow that the game is basically done until DLC or mods are introduced.

Now let me ask you Fallout 3 players a question. How many of you have actually explored every part of that game? So when I say explored I mean you went over everything with a fine tooth comb yes? You have seen everything in that world. Not many I wager. The fact is the majority could pop in Fallout 3 right now and within 20 minutes find something that they havent seen before. Thats an impressive feat considering how old that game actually is. You simply cant say that about a game like Kotor or even Dragon Age 2.

3: Loading...

Loading times. Nobody likes them. As a designer you want to limit them as often as possible while still being able to make the world around you look and act the way it should. So with a game like Dragon Age, loading times are an unfortunate necessity because every area must be reloaded as its used. If you were to compare Oblivion, which in itself is an older game, to Dragon Age 2, this is the first thing you would see. Sure there are still loading times when entering a city or house, but the majority of the world is loaded as you explore it. Loading times are necessary, but cutting them out whenever possible is always beneficial.

So now the question is why would Bioware, a company that has already proven its worth and has become successful with their current formula, want to change up their style and use us as their lab rats? YAY labe rats! Well, we're already seeing them do it now with them brancing off into a genre that, at the beggining, they had no experience with at all.

Tor is a completely different animal compared to a single player RPG ..especially when you're dealing with such a high failure rate that the mmo market currently has. As of now, nothing has even come close to the numbers that World of Warcraft is pulling in on a daily basis and yet companies still continue to try to release that "wow killer". What they fail to understand is that you simply cannot throw a copy and paste attitude around the juggernaut of the market and expect it to compete in the long run. What you're seeing is a market that has a high introduction rate, especially through profit earned for new mmos, but next to nothing that can tred water. Developers like Cryptic have taken full advantage of that bubble of "advertise until it fails" while working on their next bust. STO is a FINE example.

The point is, Bioware is very capable of experimenting and becoming an even more versatile company than they already are... especially with the talent and funding of EA and Mythic behind them. My honest oppinion? You release an rpg like Bioware has been doing with the open world design of a Bethesda game and you have the highest selling rpg on the market. Id even be inclined to suggest a split release between the two companies if only to learn exactly how its done. If you actually take the time to do it right and not rush it out the door, there is simply no way to fail.... again in my oppinion.

The RPG market is evolving and with it you have to adapt. We've already seen Bioware attempt to do this by bringing more action into their games. Long dead are the days of the DnD roll by number combat system. That too has evolved and thats just one example. This is not a thread about how god almighty Bethesda is either because in all honesty, they're horrible at actually patching their games and testing them to begin with. This is about having a passion to create the best games in the world and bringing two very different styles together to do so.

Ta Ta Image IPB

#2
Kajan451

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I don't want Open World Dragon Age. I rather see a good Game with an map which sends me to locations, which are (unfortunately not the case in DA2) unique and worth to see... than to see open "world" like in Oblivion, Dragon Knight or Two Worlds.

Don't get me wrong... these games have all their merits. But Dragon Age, for me, is about storytelling. Being told a story, like reading a book. I do not want to explore the world, but experiance a story.

Open World Dungeon Crawling has its place... i just don't see it in Dragon Age. Besides.. i wouldn't be interrested in an Open World version of Dragon Age.

And as a suggestion... try to imagine them pulling such a rush job, not only at a few instances, but on a whole world?

#3
DocDoomII

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Yes, I can totally see an open world... one with the scenery repeating every 30-40 steps :D

#4
YipLee

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becuz they lazy like me typin dis post

#5
Iwasdrunkbro

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Kajan451 wrote...

I don't want Open World Dragon Age. I rather see a good Game with an map which sends me to locations, which are (unfortunately not the case in DA2) unique and worth to see... than to see open "world" like in Oblivion, Dragon Knight or Two Worlds.

Don't get me wrong... these games have all their merits. But Dragon Age, for me, is about storytelling. Being told a story, like reading a book. I do not want to explore the world, but experiance a story.

Open World Dungeon Crawling has its place... i just don't see it in Dragon Age. Besides.. i wouldn't be interrested in an Open World version of Dragon Age.

And as a suggestion... try to imagine them pulling such a rush job, not only at a few instances, but on a whole world?


I dont understand how adding an explorable world to a game would take away from its story? You still have the same people writing in the dialogue options and quest lines as you did before. You're simply adding a bigger world to do those objectives in. I do understand how dungeon crawling and the like would be a turn off to some players, but honestly, is it much different now? In Dragon Age 2 we're constantly being told to go through the same dungeon layout that we just did to complete a different objective..?

#6
DOUGEYEMASTER

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there are many arguments fore and against open world game settings.

one i would argue (mainly relating to origins ) is that if fereldan was open world it would of been hundreds of miles square in size which is a big undertaking, if it was scaled down then the areas would not of felt so un ique and epic in distance.

yes they probably could have made kirkwall openworld but the biggest problem with this game was the production time. they only just had time to make it what it is!

oh and the dnd roll based system isnt dead they just made the animation flashier, its still the same rule book underneath all be it slimmed down slightly.

hey you know what though jjudging by the criticism of EA (which is justified) bioware should get to the end of there contract and change there parent company, get in with someone who wold give them enough time to make a huge game!!

p.s i think da2 is a cash cow to fund the completion of "The old Republic" EA want the subscription fees not the single purchase of a dragon age game :)

#7
Whatever42

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You could just as well ask why Bethesda games have such a poor narrative and weak characters. Both developers have their niche. I wouldn't want either of them try to be the other.

#8
What?

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Sure, let's go open-world for DA3. We can hi-jack horses, extort small businesses, pick-up Orlesian hookers or a random girlfriend we can entertain at the cabaret... this is sounding really familiar.

:mellow:

Modifié par VictorianTrash, 20 mars 2011 - 08:54 .


#9
Iwasdrunkbro

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DOUGEYEMASTER wrote...

there are many arguments fore and against open world game settings.

one i would argue (mainly relating to origins ) is that if fereldan was open world it would of been hundreds of miles square in size which is a big undertaking, if it was scaled down then the areas would not of felt so un ique and epic in distance.

yes they probably could have made kirkwall openworld but the biggest problem with this game was the production time. they only just had time to make it what it is!

oh and the dnd roll based system isnt dead they just made the animation flashier, its still the same rule book underneath all be it slimmed down slightly.

hey you know what though jjudging by the criticism of EA (which is justified) bioware should get to the end of there contract and change there parent company, get in with someone who wold give them enough time to make a huge game!!

p.s i think da2 is a cash cow to fund the completion of "The old Republic" EA want the subscription fees not the single purchase of a dragon age game :)


No I understand that the DnD system still exists but, like you said, it has a nice shiney cover over it now. The real issue about rushing a game out the door is that if you actually sat down and made the game the way its supposed to be made, you would make more money in the long run. Suits simply dont understand this and just want their return NOW! This is the problem with the industry. You have a bunch of suits running around that just want money fighting with the devs that just want to make good games. In the end ...money talks as it always does.

Tor on the other hand needs to be a subscription based game to compete with its market. Like I said the mmo market is a completely different animal than that of a single player rpg. Mmo have a much longer lifespan than a single player game and constant work needs to be added and patched to it to do so. You also need to hire people to make sure the LIVE game continues to run in a fair and effective manner. Basically, it costs alot of money to keep an mmo moving.

#10
WJC3688

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Games like Oblivion trade quantity for quality with their content. Sure, there's this great, massive, huge, open world...... and much of it is completely empty, looks the same, has nothing worthwhile to see outside of the same few monsters that you've already seen a dozen times, and gets boring within minutes. Sure it's true that almost no one has seen everything in Fallout 3, and I'd argue that's a strike against it, as it proves that not all of Fallout 3 is worth seeing.

This isn't to say that Bethesda sucks or anything. I have both of the games I just commented on and enjoy them quite a bit. Like Dragon Age, they have their strengths and their weaknesses, and I don't think Bioware needs to try and mimic their style, not when Bioware already has its own niche carved out.

#11
Iwasdrunkbro

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VictorianTrash wrote...

Sure, let's go open-world for DA3. We can hi-jack horses, extort small businesses, pick-up Orlesian hookers or a random girlfriend we can entertain at the cabaret... this is sounding really familiar.

:mellow:


It really doesnt need to go GTA style on us lol... though the game you descibe does sound very interesting.

#12
Lukertin

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

You could just as well ask why Bethesda games have such a poor narrative and weak characters. Both developers have their niche. I wouldn't want either of them try to be the other.

that's not what the op said.  the op doesn't want one to try to be the other, the op suggests one incorporate the features of the other to create a sum better than the parts alone

#13
Cat Fancy

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The Fallout and Dragon Age series are different. I love the latter-day Fallout games but I've never finished them because they're so unfocused and the character interactions are weaker. I don't have a problem with this. I also love the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games, and I've followed them through to the end. "Open worlds" are inherently a good thing and aren't appropriate for every game. Honestly, I think Bioware games are at their weakest when they try to give players too much choice, or validate every choice, anyway- the end of Act 3 in DA2 is kind of a mess because they wanted all options to seem equally valid. But, you know, tastes vary. I understand that some people prefer Bethesda games but they're so different that I wouldn't personally try to compare them.

#14
BeljoraDien

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1) It should take days to travel from one city to another if you're trying for any sense of realism.
2) Look at the lifeless world they spit out when they only had to deal with small sections of environments
3) I never liked Elder Scrolls... I liked the BW style until recently... I wouldn't want them to go even FURTHER away from it.

I might give Skyrim a chance though... given my recently lowered expectations for RPGs.

Edit: These numbers were in no way meant to correspond to the OP's 3 topics... I just realized that's confusing.

Modifié par BeljoraDien, 20 mars 2011 - 09:02 .


#15
Thiefy

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it's just not their style. i would gather they would rather put resources into other things than "filler" maps inbetween point a and point b, especially since those maps would go largely unnoticed anyway.

#16
Count Viceroy

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

You could just as well ask why Bethesda games have such a poor narrative and weak characters. Both developers have their niche. I wouldn't want either of them try to be the other.


Well said.

#17
WJC3688

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that's not what the op said. the op doesn't want one to try to be the other, the op suggests one incorporate the features of the other to create a sum better than the parts alone


So he wants a game with the size of Oblivion and every nook and cranny of it to be populated by quests and characters as well-written as those in Dragon Age? Don't get me wrong, that would be a wonderful thing, but the limiting factor there is cost and development time. You can have fun waiting 10 years for that game to come out. In addition to that, games aren't priced based on size or amount of content, they're pretty much all priced the same regardless of how short or long they are. Bioware sinking so much time and money into a game that would still sell at the same price as DA2 would probably put them out of business.

#18
DOUGEYEMASTER

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when i refered to subscription fees and TOR i was making the point that DA2 was just another sourse of money for the completion of TOR, TOR fingers crossed will be epic and the first MMO i will actually play! EA have always wanted the star wars franchise, and a well made star wars mmo will make them millions apon millions after running costs because star wars franchises are always huge, thats why the suits at EA are not particuly worried about the detail of DA2 as long as it sells

On the other hand look at it this way!! If a Bioware MMO is making huge profits then EA will be more likely to divert larger pots of money towards future Bioware games! So the success of TOR could have a direct effect on the quality of DA3! More money = more tiem = better game!!! simplez!

#19
Insom

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They could totally do an open world game that still has a focused world with great companions and everything. New Vegas proves it. That game slaps the last two Bethesda titles and is more akin to what a Bioware one would be like. Whether Bioware will ever do one or not is a different story.

#20
Lukertin

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Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

it's just not their style. i would gather they would rather put resources into other things than "filler" maps inbetween point a and point b, especially since those maps would go largely unnoticed anyway.

Heh, put resources into other things--  For Oblivion they had like 1 guy do all the environments outside the city and what not.

#21
Iwasdrunkbro

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Insom wrote...

They could totally do an open world game that still has a focused world with great companions and everything. New Vegas proves it. That game slaps the last two Bethesda titles and is more akin to what a Bioware one would be like. Whether Bioware will ever do one or not is a different story.


Thats probably because the same company that made Kotor 2 made New Vegas. They actually have some decent writers over there at Obsidian.

#22
Gatt9

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Iwasdrunkbro wrote...
1: The world around you is dead.

The main reason why games like Oblivion do so well is because there is a living, breathing world that is open to the player from the moment the disc loads up. It keeps the game interesting and makes people want to actually go out and explore this virtual world to see just what it holds. Humans by our very nature are curious and that thirst needs to be sated to keep people entertained longer than what is permited or even designed by the developers. Games like Red Dead Redemption or GTA rely heavily on this model because, lets be honest, Rockstar doesnt have the writers that Bioware does (yes thats a compliment)... but nor should they! They have mastered their own little niche and really paved the way for games like Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas. How so?


Open world is bad design,  at least in the manner you talk about it.

Let's take Oblivion as our example...

-Open world fails at maintaining any storyline involving anything remotely emergent.  Oblivion's main quest:  "Help,  there are gates opening to a demonic world all over the country and demonic armies are going to pour through...someday...maybe...actually nevermind,  just go wander around for a century and nothing will happen..."  If you want any kind of compelling story involving some imminent disaster,  Open World is not the option you want to use.

-Open World is generally empty world.  Open World tries to be a perpetual neverending world,  which means the quests are generic randomly generated with little meaning,  never offering any reason to explore.  Oblivion's ruins are a perfect example,  why bother?  There's nothing in there.  Nothing worth spending 2 hours of your life on anyways.

-Oblivion's AI shows what happens when you try to create a world.  Nothing is more boring than trying to turn in some quest item to find you have to chase someone in a circle around a building as it follows it's AI path,  just for the sake of pretending it's doing something when it isn't.  It serves no purpose other than wasitng my time.

-Now consider GTA or Saint's Row in contrast,  no ridiculous chasing people around a house,  no time wasted on generating innane side quests,  the story is setup so that it doesn't demonstrate Oblivion's weakness.  Might & Magic is a better example,  it can be done,  but no one's going to do it.  Because they're more interested in screwing around with some The Sims equivalent AI Life rather than making a good game.



2: There is NO Freedom!


First,  you demonstrate you have no idea what you're talking about.  Those "Poorly designed" RPGs are widely regarded as examples of how to do RPG right.  Second,  it would be a really good time for you to realize Oblivion isn't an RPG,  it's an Adventure game.  It fails every single test for being an RPG.  No Character Development due to Level Scaling,  no character based skill due to level scaling and the non-existant hit system,  no effect on the world.  It is almost identical to a wide-open Uncharted. 

Second,  no one sits there and reloads every conversation to see what all the responses are.

Third,  there's nothing to explore in your "Open World" games.  There's no point to it,  there's nothing there but some really crappy item and a dungeon with no point.  Progress Quest has more compelling reasons to play than going through one of Oblivion's empty ruins.




3: Loading...


Seriously?  Of all the things to complain about...




Tor is a completely different animal compared to a single player RPG ..especially when you're dealing with such a high failure rate that the mmo market currently has. As of now, nothing has even come close to the numbers that World of Warcraft is pulling in on a daily basis and yet companies still continue to try to release that "wow killer". What they fail to understand is that you simply cannot throw a copy and paste attitude around the juggernaut of the market and expect it to compete in the long run. What you're seeing is a market that has a high introduction rate, especially through profit earned for new mmos, but next to nothing that can tred water. Developers like Cryptic have taken full advantage of that bubble of "advertise until it fails" while working on their next bust. STO is a FINE example.


That's because there's only a little over 1,000,000 MMO players.  WoW's an abberation,  for reasons I won't go into here.  It cannot be reproduced,  the majority of those players aren't going to stay in MMOs.  They're playing WoW only because it's a generational phenomenae,  They come up every 5 years or so,  something all the kids are into.  Transformers in the 80's,  Magic the Gathering,  Pokemon,  Diablo 2,  Final Fantasy 7,  and now WoW.

The number of MMO players is roughly what was present prior to WoW,  which is a little over 1,000,000.  You can google MMO population charts and find the guy who made them in 2002 prior to WoW.

The RPG market is evolving and with it you have to adapt. We've already seen Bioware attempt to do this by bringing more action into their games. Long dead are the days of the DnD roll by number combat system. That too has evolved and thats just one example. This is not a thread about how god almighty Bethesda is either because in all honesty, they're horrible at actually patching their games and testing them to begin with. This is about having a passion to create the best games in the world and bringing two very different styles together to do so.


No,  the D&D system is doing just fine,  because that's what an RPG is.  There's no "Evolution" here,  remove it and you get Tomb Raider and Uncharted.  An RPG system without RPG mechanics falls into a different genre. 

-Adventure game:  Narrative driven setting where the onscreen character is an Avatar for the player,  it has no intrinsic qualities.  Interaction is determined by Player Skill.  (Oblivion)

-FPS/TPS:  May be narrative driven,  interaction is determined by Player skill,  character has no intrinsic qualities,  is just an Avatar for the Player.

-RPG:  Narrative driven setting where the character has intrinsic qualities outside of the Player's ability to affect interactions.

See that fine line there?  Player skill vs Character skill.  Cross it and you get some other game.  So D&D die rolling isn't dead,  what's dead is the RPG genre.  Companies just keep putting it on the box so people think they're playing an RPG.  That's why ME is an RPG,  and Oblivion,  Fallout 3,  and ME2 are not.  Because that thing on the screen in those games is just a representation of yourself with no qualities of it's own.  It cannot fail,  because you control it,  only you can fail.  At which point you just stopped being an RPG.

Modifié par Gatt9, 20 mars 2011 - 09:15 .


#23
BeljoraDien

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Actually... I'm now realizing how well an open world would have worked for DA2... The world is basically stagnant for 7 years with no impending threat to take into account. Plus, the entire thing takes place within a city and a small area outside of it, so it wouldn't be inanely large... And you do tons of silly quests with no consequence like in Elder Scrolls...

It wouldn't have worked for any previous BW game, however, and DA2 is a formula I want them to move AWAY from.

#24
Iwasdrunkbro

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Gatt9 the majority of your post is based on oppinion of what an rpg is and isnt. Ive already stated in a response above that I know die rolling isnt dead. I really dont want to get into what an rpg is and isnt in this thread. I created it to get people's take on how an open world would work with a Bioware driven story. Im not asking your oppinions on Oblivion and how or why is did or didnt meet your expectations.

Loading times are an issue especially for those playing on a console or a pc that isnt exactly top of the line. People do infact reload frequently when playing Bioware games to see different outcomes. I know because I do it. Again, these issues are just your oppinion though.

I completely disagree with your stance on wow (even though this arguement has no place in this discussion) because wow didnt simply fall out of thin air. Blizzard took alot from Everquest and simply made it better.

#25
astrallite

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The most obvious answer is the engine can't handle it. If you notice all of Bioware's games are segmented into small maps. None of their previous engines have handled large areas well and the current engine is really just an progressive extension of Aurora.