47 réponses à ce sujet

[Whist Darkblade]

While ive played true RPG's before, both board ( D&D) and console based (FF). I personally did not like having to wait your turn. Its not about ADD or lack of patience, it was just not realistic. Id give my character a command, then watch as the enemy reacted, then retaliate, and repeat.

DAO vastly improved upon this by including "Tactics".

Oliver Sudden wrote....

Which reminds me ... how come my rogue doesn't try to save some stamina by just, you know, throwing those flasks? Seems to me that would be a lot less effort than roundhouse kicks.

You can customize and fine tune, team behavior to such a perfect degree that you can face any challenge with the right tactics and win. Not being sure as to what difficulty you all are playing on, but if you want a challenge instead of seeing your character cut down all in his/her path, in virtually no real threat of dying, try playing the game on nightmare.

DA2 improved on DAO by now actually including status effect, enabling "cross-class combos" Using a mage with upgraded "Winters Breath" or "Cone of Cold" has a chance to make enemies "Brittle" then if another character has a successful melee critical hit, the enemy will shatter. Thus completing the cross-class combo. There are numerous other ways to accomplish this as well. Playing on nightmare absolutely requires the "pause-and-play" approach, requiring you to tactically think about how to beat bosses (Mature High Dragon, Undying Terror, Pride Demon.... these bosses on nightmare are by no means easy to beat. You will die and have to re-load your game at least once)

I personally agree with the posters saying the new art style is comical, it is. I was deeply disappointed by this new direction. So in that aspect DA2 was a let down, but the combat was greatly stream-lined over DAO.

Modifié par Whist Darkblade, 20 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[Luminary1919]

I guess if the plan had been to cash in big time before leaving the industry then this would make sense. RPG fans from Origins and older games would buy the sequel anyway along with new audience attracted by action and better graphics.

But yeah, we all know this is not the case. RPG fans will think long and hard before buying the next game and kids will find better action games to play.

[VanDraegon]

vigna wrote...

What kind of statement is that?

That is the alternate forum language know as Trollish. 

[vigna]

Realistic? it is a video game. If you want stark realism go out and swing a real sword at a Ren Fair.

[JeeWeeJ]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Rocambole4 - I hate you (not really, don't be silly). I purchased DA:2 instead of Shogun 2... I've been kicking myself every day since Shogun came out.

They actually realized the Empire: Total War was a failure in their eyes - they realized that sometimes new isn't better. I admire them... and I regret making the wrong purchase.

Even though (being a big DA and Bioware fan) i hate to admit it...i feel the same as you do. And i never thought i'd say that about a Bioware game...

[HawXV2]

VanDraegon wrote...

Another older gamer here. 42. I agree with you for the most part. The fast paced combat is just a bit too fast for my taste. Lets hope that Bioware and EA take something away from the feed back they been getting when it comes time to get to work on DA3. Hopefully they will take a couple steps back towards the DA:O style of game and away from the console-ized type that DA2 is.

We have to remember, a lot of people like the combat. Me, for instance.

[Hatchetman77]

Luminary1919 wrote...

I guess if the plan had been to cash in big time before leaving the industry then this would make sense. RPG fans from Origins and older games would buy the sequel anyway along with new audience attracted by action and better graphics.

But yeah, we all know this is not the case. RPG fans will think long and hard before buying the next game and kids will find better action games to play.

Agreed.  Kids and consolers can get this kind of combat anywhere.  BioWare is looking to attract an audience that will drop them like a hat when the next cool thing comes out and alienated many of their loyal followers who will buy anything with BioWare stamped on it because they know it will be exactly what they want (and can't get anywhere else). Don't worry though, I'm sure there is a company out there that covets the predictable playerbase that BioWare had and will capitalize on this opportunity.

As for the comments in this thread about story, there wasen't a story in this game.  There was an interesting setting, a collection well written scenes (although I think the voice actors of some of the secondary characters, such as the Qunari Arishok, contributed to that) but no overaching story to tie everything together to make me care about this cinematic slideshow. It kind of reminded me of many of the more dramatic chick flicks that I've been forced to watchin the past that go absolutly nowhere and consist of just stuff happening and the main character reacting to it ("The Secret Life of Bees" comes to mind despit all my best attempts to forget it...).   DA2's story structure was kind of like a pornographic movie, where how the scene starts and how we transition from scene to scene is unimportant.  We just want to get to the individual scenes. 

[Rocambole4]

Oliver Sudden wrote...

Just like people, a company's success, I think, depends on that company's goals. Starbucks wants a location everywhere in the world and McDonalds wants to make sure everyone on the planet can eat their hamburgers and end up getting and needing billions of dollars to run their businesses.

But the mom and pop deli where I buy my sandwiches doesn't want to become the largest food-provider on the planet, they just want to make a (good) living selling their sandwiches.

A huge company like EA or Bethesda needs sales in the millions to overcome their overhead and make a profit. Smaller companies don't need to sell as many copies of their games to make a good living for their smaller staff so they might not be as likely to try to capture the largest audience possible.

Or, I could be all wrong.

Actually you're not wrong. The costs they incur for being big companies are huge.

What I believe wrong is - big companies can sell a LOT having many high quality niche products or by having several average quality products with wide appeal that overlap. Having several good products is called flank defense - you don't leave parts of the market not covered for some competitor, even it's not your main product.

Think about Coke vs Pepsi for a minute. Pepsi is a Coke clone. Yet, they are leaders (believe it or not) because of the other lines. Gatorade, specifically, make Pepsi have a larger market share than Coke. No "new Coke" would break the stalemate - there's already Coke.

If Pepsi simply launched OTHER coke clone - Pepsi B - would they grab more of the market? No, people that DIDN'T think Coke was awessome where an untapped market.

I realy dunno why marketing rules shouldn't be of use on the games market. I really feel not the devs, but the executives, still believe only kids play videogames, with one or two retarded grown up along. They really need to open their eyes. Inserting blood or sexy cutscenes on shallow games do NO make them mature.

Also, forgive my bad english. I'm a marketing graduate, but english is not my native language.

[Rutaan]

The Ninja Turtles combat is just the most obvious sellout in a game that reeks of cashing in and game development done on the cheap. We've all noticed the endlessly recycled areas, which actually didn't bother me too much at first. But now that I'm in Act 3, it does start to get ridiculous. I agree that some of the scenes and voice acting do save it from utter ruin, but the missions themselves are nearly all of the FedEx, or damsel/child in distress variety.

The UI is a blocky, artless catastrophe. And, really, the Devs had to have been listening to the squeals of eight yeer olds pounding on their game pads when they decided to have enemies drop from the sky into the middle of the battles, because that is the only age group who is going to get a kick out of that. Car magazines sometimes pan cars for parts bin engineering, where the car is obviously put together from components already seen in other cars. This is code bin engineering, and it goes a long way toward explaining the lightning fast development time. So many elements were nicked from ME, that it barley passes for a fantasy game. Everything from the menu transition sounds to the sparky, electrically charged boss battles is way too sci-fi for a fantasy game.Thanks for selling us out, Bioware. And just remember, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[CenturyCrow]

Mikealpha wrote...

Hmmm, I'm just half through the game and still shocked. The mage casts spells like a comic figure. Enemies are frantically jumping around in fights ? Where is the slow down setting in the Options ?

Oh well, I'm 51, seems I have become too old for this.

Mike 

I'm 64 and wasn't too old for DA:O. A lot of the good parts of DA2 have been dragged down by the negative. I doubt the engineers and artists wanted the game released on schedule, but someone did.

For DA2, I suspect that EA/BW knew exactly what target they were aiming for and it's the younger console gamer - bigger numbers=more sales. That was step 1. Step 2 will be multiplayer, Dragon Age Duty.  As Rocambole 4 suggests, they eventually start copying each other and they all start to look like that grey Fereldon stew, just wrapped in different packages. Mediocrity is what you get when the drive for quality is displaced with quantity.

Rocambole4 wrote...
I wholeheartedly disagree.

The gaming industry in going through an identity crysis right now. EVERY game must be the same, play the same, look the same.

I feel kinda sorry for the guys behind DA:O.
They had a good plan and an incredible niche product. Then they where
overpowered by not-so-bright marketing managers. Now they have an
average mainstream game.

After watching Carver leap around, I don't want to play as a warrior and so the game has limited replay for me. I don't doubt that many will enjoy it immensely; but it will be played once or twice and forgotten (unless the toolset is released).

Quality never gets old (and there's still a lot of that showing in DA2). But a lot of people are content with a Kraft dinner.

[Kajan451]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Hate to say it, but this really is the best course for a company to be successful.

Thats Bull and you know it.

Its the same way as when companys say "the future is with Handy Apps and Browser Games" and at the same time stop supplying everything but Handy Apps and Browser Games.

Of when a company is like "we need the DRM to protect ourselves" despite said DRM being only a burdon to the real customers and the very fact that they do loose Customers for it, as opposed to gain them.

And They don't need to take this course to be successful. Quite the opposit. They do alienate the people who look forward to their products, by moving further and further away from what people once wanted. DA2 is, if it is, a huge success because DA:O was what people wanted. But if i look at the 4 people who bought it with me, because we loved DA:O... all 5 of us, either stopped playing or are sure we won't preorder the next DA. My fiance cancled her preorder after the demo, stating she can do without a copy this time (she has so far not played and only been onlooker to my game sessions). Of course this is just an isolated example.

Also, in one of germanys biggest roleplay forums, there seems to be no hype about DA2, as there was one with DA:O. Many were like: You got to play, you got to see this. ... on DA2, the voices are: "Yeah well i played the Demo and i think i won't be getting it" or "I am totally disappointed by the game". Of course those are also just the opinions of gamers and roleplay fans i am able to access...

But i venture that DA2... maybe from a market point of few, swimming on the hype of DA:O.. might have been a success, i do doubt people will be as ready to pick up DA3. In my opinion its NOT the way to be successful, in my opinion is the way to a sure death for the company. EA doesn't care about Bioware, as long as they give the numbers. And as long as they provide the right numbers Bioware will continue to exist.. but i assume the numbers will downwardspiral if they do not try to stop their current trend in games with the next Installment of Mass Effect and Dragon Age. (And i am sure there will be at least one more).

I mean, honestly, i am going to buy ME3 only because it, from the start, was supposed to be a Triology. An Interactive Movie. But i don't think i will pick up another ME game. I can't see myself doing that. Other games perform much better on the sector they want to venture to. And Dragon Age? At this point i am unsure if i would buy Dragon Age 3. It would depend alot on reviews and general feedback AFTER the game was released.

[Warheadz]

Funny thing, I often heard on these forums that people who love Origins, hate DA 2 and remember BG 2 days are old and the time has passed them, but I am 18 and I thought Origins was superior to DA 2. Oh, and I also play CoD.

[Lee T]

I don't mind the combat. I don't like the new rythm and artistic direction much but the new abilities make up for it as far as I'm concerned. The only sore point is having to mindelssly mash the A button from start to finish do erodes my capacity to pay attention to what's happening. They'd better make that auto attack patch fast .

[Mikealpha]

Luminary1919 wrote...

But yeah, we all know this is not the case. RPG fans will think long and hard before buying the next game and kids will find better action games to play.

Exactly that hits the nail on the head. Well, not only kids, I like action games as well. If I know before what I get. Like Dead Space for example, it is at least sort of believable action and I think that's something also the action crowd asks for.

But in an RPG ? Enemies warping in the middle of a fight from above ? How do they get there, with invisible parachutes ? Or do they jump from the buildings like in Assassins Creed ? 
 
The fights look like the parody of an RPG, but not like an adult game.

What does DA2 want to be ? I still don't get it.

[Caralampio]

Sometimes I wish there was an autoresolve button for battles. Battles in DAO were immersive, even if fighting a single Genlock I found it interesting. Note I'm not saying 'challenging' before someone jumps, I mean even for the single Genlock I would find it fun to attack him, position my character, use the best spell, etc.

Battles in DA2 are kinda... fun. Somewhat entertaining. But nowhere as immersive as DAO's. Everything happens so fast, all I experience is how fast I can push buttons. But the results of my button pushing are not satisfying. I can't even see the mighty sword swinging heavily and hitting the enemy with a wonderful "crunch". I can't even see the enemy being beheaded, or falling slowly to the floor.

[GunClubGirl]

Whist Darkblade wrote...

While ive played true RPG's before, both board ( D&D) and console based (FF). I personally did not like having to wait your turn. Its not about ADD or lack of patience, it was just not realistic. Id give my character a command, then watch as the enemy reacted, then retaliate, and repeat.

DAO vastly improved upon this by including "Tactics".

Oliver Sudden wrote....

Which reminds me ... how come my rogue doesn't try to save some stamina by just, you know, throwing those flasks? Seems to me that would be a lot less effort than roundhouse kicks.

You can customize and fine tune, team behavior to such a perfect degree that you can face any challenge with the right tactics and win. Not being sure as to what difficulty you all are playing on, but if you want a challenge instead of seeing your character cut down all in his/her path, in virtually no real threat of dying, try playing the game on nightmare.

DA2 improved on DAO by now actually including status effect, enabling "cross-class combos" Using a mage with upgraded "Winters Breath" or "Cone of Cold" has a chance to make enemies "Brittle" then if another character has a successful melee critical hit, the enemy will shatter. Thus completing the cross-class combo. There are numerous other ways to accomplish this as well. Playing on nightmare absolutely requires the "pause-and-play" approach, requiring you to tactically think about how to beat bosses (Mature High Dragon, Undying Terror, Pride Demon.... these bosses on nightmare are by no means easy to beat. You will die and have to re-load your game at least once)

I personally agree with the posters saying the new art style is comical, it is. I was deeply disappointed by this new direction. So in that aspect DA2 was a let down, but the combat was greatly stream-lined over DAO.

I agree with Whist Darkblade. Turns and pausing to issue commands feels like it inturrupts the flow of gameplay for me. I rarely do it on DA2 and when I do, I cringe. I wish they allowed for more auto assign buttons. I've played a lot of turn based RPGs in my day it was an adjustment getting used to the new gameplay but I ended up realizing it made for a more realistic, exciting experience.

Unfortunately, no matter what a developer does, they can't please everybody. I often won't even play console games on weekdays because I'm tired from work and life and I can't keep up with the fast pace - but it's worth it because I enjoy the games more on the weekend. There are slower paced games out there that I can play when I'm in the mood to relax, a lot of puzzle games and the one mmo that I play. So while I do agree that some of the moves in DA2 are a little "over the top" I haven't found the pace of gameplay to be a problem. In fact I found I get annoyed when "Haste" expires and I have to slow down! If there's two things I don't like in a game anymore it's standing still and taking turns.

Modifié par GunClubGirl, 21 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[jds1bio]

Is anyone here playing DA2 on hard or nightmare? The combat isn't fast-paced because I'm constantly on pause.

I'm surprised that people think that they should be able to see every single enemy before beginning a battle. What if you were playing a pen-and-paper RPG with a live DM, and enemies warped in during a battle via a portal to another dimension? Or, what if you're, say, inside the chantry and you begin a battle, and during the battle some templar calls for backup to come to where you are? Aren't those situations plausible?

Also, stealth as a mechanic actually works in this game, for both the enemies and for your players.  So it is possible in the heat of a fight not to notice other enemies right away.

Modifié par jds1bio, 21 mars 2011 - 01:30 .

[Pandaman102]

Rocambole4 wrote...

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Kajan451 wrote...

Thats Bull and you know it.

Yikes, I didn't say I approve of the action, but even after the financial crisis there's still an unreasonable expectation by shareholders for continual growth. Bioware isn't in full control of its own publication, its business strategy is dictated by the market, not by gamers - and I'm saying that in order to be successful in that environment they have to play by those rules.

That or somehow pull an MMO equally as successful as World of Warcraft and rake in enough cash to spend as much time developing the games they want and canceling them if they don't feel it's up to their standards, but honestly Blizzard's success was a bit of a fluke. Also EA would have their grubby mitts in that pie as soon as the first ping hits the servers, so that option was never on the table to start with.

[Pandaman102]

jds1bio wrote...

Is anyone here playing DA2 on hard or nightmare? The combat isn't fast-paced because I'm constantly on pause.

I'm surprised that people think that they should be able to see every single enemy before beginning a battle. What if you were playing a pen-and-paper RPG with a live DM, and enemies warped in during a battle via a portal to another dimension? Or, what if you're, say, inside the chantry and you begin a battle, and during the battle some templar calls for backup to come to where you are? Aren't those situations plausible?

Also, stealth as a mechanic actually works in this game, for both the enemies and for your players.  So it is possible in the heat of a fight not to notice other enemies right away.

I can guarantee you that if I was running a game where I would go "And reinforcements arrive!" three or four times every battle, I would have a very empty table before the end of the first session. It's useful in certain situations but not every bloody situation.

[Ostagar2011]

jds1bio wrote...

Is anyone here playing DA2 on hard or nightmare? The combat isn't fast-paced because I'm constantly on pause.

I'm surprised that people think that they should be able to see every single enemy before beginning a battle. What if you were playing a pen-and-paper RPG with a live DM, and enemies warped in during a battle via a portal to another dimension? Or, what if you're, say, inside the chantry and you begin a battle, and during the battle some templar calls for backup to come to where you are? Aren't those situations plausible?

Also, stealth as a mechanic actually works in this game, for both the enemies and for your players.  So it is possible in the heat of a fight not to notice other enemies right away.

Perhaps not see every enemy at the beginning of a battle. Just no beaming in from the USS Enterprise. Always 3 waves. Always from thin air. It should have been done such that when I do see the enemy and the terrain, I can plan what I will do with them. Rather than be surprised by a new teleport in all the oddest places when all my stamina is gone. Changes tactical into random.

Nightmare is a waste of time because of no tactical cam, the silly UI and the pace. I played Origins 3 times for the combat alone. One playthrough of DA2 and it's off my hard disk.

[Flunkorg]

Seriously? You just noticed NOW?
With every new RPG I knew where they where headed. Slowly going further and further away from pen and paper RPG's.

And you know what I think?

Put simply:
Okay.

Yeah, thats it. I don't care. You know why? Because does old RPG's still exist and I can play them when ever. So I see no point in behaving like this is the "Apocalypse". I really don't know what the deal with you guys. You act like RPG's of this gen (Or even last) are "****", "suck" or "ARE INSULTS TO GAMERS". Did it ever occure to you that it DOESN'T have to play like older RPG's to be FUN or BETTER? Games are measured by fun, not by how many math calculations you have to do. If you want old style RPG's, play old style RPG's. See how simple that is? These new RPG'S are still RPG's, they're just going in there own direction. Does that mean they suck? No. Does that mean there not fun? No. Then what does it mean? Simple, they're there own games. They're not old style RPG's and they don't try to be.

[DM Veil]

I guess I just didn't find DA:O to be the great game so many on here make it out to be. That's not to say I didn't enjoy it, I did, and I played through it 3 times, but by the third time I was bored because I already knew the outcome while the story and combat just seemed to slowly drag on. The story was nothing special, I've played a hero saving the world a dozen times or more already, and while it's enjoyable to play each one at least once, they get old fast.

I've read the comments that DA2 lacks story, but this couldn't be further from the truth. It's a personal story of one man/woman's struggle to survive and support his/her family, that's why he/she works so hard doing odd jobs to raise money for the expedition and starts down the path that ultimately leads to becoming a champion. Let's not forget that DA2 sets in motion some major events that I expect will come to a head in the next game, something that DA:O didn't really do since the Warden's tale was fairly complete. The Warden was a hero that saved a nation, but Hawke was a person involved in one form or another in events that would change the world of Thedas forever.

And I guess I missed the memo, but when was it declared that RPGs had to have slow combat to be taken seriously? DA:O combat was very slow, I completed it on Nightmare without pausing and with minimal effort because all I had to do was pick the right skills and set up tactics, watching the AI practically play the game for me with little chance of failing a fight. DA2 changed that by adding in more challenging bosses and combat that was faster paced so I didn't fall asleep waiting for the fight to be over. Even so I find that with the right builds Nightmare is pretty easy and I make it harder by imposing special rules on myself like no one in the party dying to make it more challenging. If you have a problem with the faster combat and don't want to pause the game a lot then turn the difficulty down.

I have a lot of appreciation for the old games and I look back on my memories of playing them fondly but I really hate how so many people claim a game sucks simply because it's not like the nostalgic games they remember.

Modifié par DM Veil, 21 mars 2011 - 03:21 .

[DragonRacer]

vigna wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Don't criticize what you can't understand

Because we are all so stoopid.

What kind of statement is that? What doesn't the OP or other people get? we don't want to see Bioware turn their RPGs into Halo....what's wrong with that? If you want halo...buy halo.

Whoops..edit.....Let me say "I" rather..I don't want to see.

Um, I hate to be the one to break it to you (and that it's a 26-year-old having to do so, since none of the others have pointed it out yet)... but I don't think that statement you quoted was made as an actual criticism.

The thread title is "The times they are a-changin'". That's an old Bob Dylan song. The line "don't criticize what you can't understand" is a lyric from that song.

The more you know...

(And I enjoyed both DA:O and DA2, so I have no dog in this fight and will politely step out now.)