1890 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaeya]

@Yankee- Haha, no, I haven't! But I've heard of it! owo I should probably read it, then! X3 So many of my friends have recommended that I do.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that, then.

[Galagraphia]

 Well, I don't believe all templars are innocent. Acording to Bethany, most of them are ok, but that's all we know. There are still the law violations, because they do make harrowed mages tranquil, and without a proof we can't tell whether those mages were blood mages or somebody just didn't like them. But there are Grace, Iduna, Alain. Iduna wasn't killed or tranquilized despite that everyone knew she was a blood mage! Alain used blood magic, but Cullen didn't execute him. And I seriously don't understand why they didn't kill Grace!

And we know that many mages turned to blood magic because they wanted to be free from the templars. Like Orsino, for example. So there is truth in what Anders says, but there are times when I want to hit him. Like when during the "Act of Mercy" he says  "let's kill Thrask because these crazy blood mages who were trying to kill us are definitely innocent!" 

Of course I support freedom for mages, it's wrong to keep them as prisoners, but templars must exist too. They exist even in Tevinter, just because there will always be demons and abominations.

But I don't support Fenris' point of view either. Because we have an example of a society where being a mage is ok: elves. Both modern Dalish and Arlathan. We know very a little about Arlathan, I don't know if they had slaves and practiced blood sacrifices, doesn't seem like that. But dalish are ok with magic. Rivaini are ok with magic and they even have legal abominations. Chasind use magic too and they have no templars! So I guess it's possible to give mages their freedom. But it's unjust to blame the templars for locking up and guarding the mages. Because that's the Chantry system, and Chantry is responsible, and templars are just the soldiers who do what they are commanded to do. And I'm glad they rebelled too in the end. About time.

Also I don't want to make Cullen and Anders two poles apart. And I'm glad Anders had some sense to blow up the Chantry, not the Templars Hall (though it could be because he couldn't sneak into the Gallows with a bomb, but still ), because templars are not the ones to blame for the situation in Thedas. 

Modifié par Galagraphia, 10 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[Vaeya]

Mm, I wasn't saying all Templars are innocent. :3 But like I said in my post, those under Meredith's command are just following orders. And then the Chantry is the one giving the orders. They're taught not to question that, so you can't blame somebody for that, per se. Not everybody can have backbone and be a man like Cullen. >w<

I'm actually very excited that the Templars have split from the Chantry. It's about damned time! I've never been a religious sort in real life, and so it's in my being to not like the Chantry. They twist words around to fit their needs. And gosh, they've made their soldiers drug addicts for their own benefit of controlling them. D: It's sad. I think Templars that are like Cullen and Thrask can change the system without the Chantry breathing down their necks. Make it better for both parties in the end of all of this.

Again, the only problem is the lyrium. The Chantry controls that, except in Orzammar/the Deep Roads.

Hahahaha! XD Oh Maker. If Anders had gone and blown up Templar Hall I would have cried and rage quit, because that would likely kill Cullen. *heartbreak* XD

[Yankee23]

My opinion is that not all mages are bad and neither are most templars. I also do not think the Kirkwall circle is representative of most circles. I agree mages need more freedom and that templars are necessary. I feel it's the situation itself that creates the "fanatical" mages and templars and things wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so restrictive.

Modifié par Yankee23, 10 août 2011 - 03:24 .

[Galagraphia]

 @Vaeya, I wasn't accusing anybody, just wanted to make it clear that this is not another Anders-hating thread just because it's Cullen thread   I don't want people to throw kittens at us for that. About the lyrium: there is always Carta, they smuggle it to the Gallows already, as we discover during the second act. I read an article with very interesting thoughts about it.


@Yankee23, you are right. Kirkwall Circle is just the worst. Probably because of whatever the Band of Three discovered or because the Corypheus was "sleeping" nearby, and all that was weakening the Veil and driving mages crazy.

Modifié par Galagraphia, 10 août 2011 - 03:42 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Yankee23 wrote...

Vaeya wrote...
I'm sure many people may have thought of this before me, but a revised system may work. Instead of trapping the mages in a circle, away from normal people, why not let them live outside of it? Perhaps when apprentices pass their Harrowing and become mages, they can be assigned a Templar to them and go out into the world, thus freeing the mage AND Templar from prison in the circle. Then again, if they prefer to stay in the circle, they can. But this allows more freedom to mages, and therefore lessening the urge to consort with demons

This is very similar to thoughts I had after Origins. Have you read The Wheel of Time? Perhaps mages need Warders!

One's impossible, two is dreary, three is company: safe and cheery.

I've considered something similar, but I think to alleviate the risk of one of the pair abusing or manipulating the other, it's best to add a third person (or form a small band of 3-6, but for now let's deal with 3.) The best way to do this is to have the third person be a neutral rogue, either a dwarf or an elf. You could find plenty of recruits in dustown, or the alienages, or from the Dalish as part of a deal granting them freedom from persecution. If anyone in the group can't get along with the other two, they go back to the central organization base and request a new team.

We'll have to see about the templars splitting from the chantry. I fear that some of them may have tried to go back to the days of the inquisitiors, which is what the templar order was before the chantry made them part of their structure. From what little I know about them, they seemed quite unpleasant. I hope that at least some templars have taken a more sensible approach to the whole thing, but that remains to be seen.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 août 2011 - 03:46 .

[Vaeya]

@Gala- Oh! I know. :3 I was just wanted to clear up my views so people didn't mistake them for me being pro-all-Templars 100% etc. XD And I understand. Like I said, I don't hate Anders. I can't help but feel some connection to him for the cat-love. Hah! XD I just don't agree with his views, sadly. TwT

If people started throwing kittens, though, I'd have to do something about that. The poor kittens! XD

Edit: Ah, thanks for that article! It is pretty interesting. owo

@Cultural- Ah, that makes more sense. owo I was wondering how you could balance it out because there's always that risk one might betray the other etc. And if you put two Templars with a mage, that's a little unfair and shows no trust. So hm, that makes sense... Put in a neutral third party... Volunteers. *nodnod* I was going to use my idea in a future fic, mind if I adapt this into it as well? The neutral person idea? :3

Oh... I hope they don't all turn ruthless like that... There are so many different ways this can play out. It's going to be hard to wait for new installments to see what happens. XD DA has a way of making me impatient... *sigh*

Modifié par Vaeya, 10 août 2011 - 04:30 .

[Galagraphia]

Honestly I don't like the idea of a mage and a templar going out into a big world together so one could watch after the other. I don't think it's much different from the Circle. I would prefer something like police. Mage commits a crime - they go capture the mage and punish him/her. After the mage's guilt is proven. While people will keep treating mages like they are not people, they won't be people. I'm sure if you give them a chance, the majority will prefer to have normal lives. For others there's always Aeonar.

Also, another thought about Tevinter: I think slavery is a real problem there, not magic. Without slaves blood magic wouldn't have been so powerful.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

@Vaeya Feel free to use the idea, if you'd like. I'm especially fond of it because as an added bonus, it gives the dusters an opportunity to get a job that gets them out of dusttown.

I think that having a mage-related police force is good but at the same time I think there needs to be some structure in place for identifying and training young mages, and educating them enough that they can properly defend themselves in the fade. I did a big essay on this in another thread, but I think there is a need for a system for mages... it should just be one where mages have a good deal of influence and where they aren't cut off from their families or support system.

The "a mage, a rogue, and a templar traveling around together solving mysteries" idea sort of comes from that... answering the question of how you can send people to ethically and compassionately identify and work out a training system for young mages. In my opinion, the crimefighting branch should have a similar composition (dwarves are especially useful there, given their inherent magic resistance. Bonus.) The presence of a mage on the investigation team helps keep things fair.

As unfair as it is, until magic comes back for everyone (see: Sandal's crazy prophecy), mages have great power, and with great power comes great responsibility. I'm almost as violently pro-mage and as much of an Anders sympathizer as you can get, but I still see the need for some kind of structure. Every society out there at least identifies and trains mages, it seems, that's the minimum we need to be able to do. We also need to be somewhat pro-active about checking on mages and making sure they don't go off the rails, and that if they feel trapped or in trouble they get help. Even Anders agrees that mages need to watch other mages for signs of blood magic, but I think there need to be some non-mage outside forces involved in the investigations too, because blood magic is insidious.

It's a dangerous tightrope act, but I think it's possible to provide a non-intrusive mage education and law enforcement system.

[Vaeya]

@Cultural- Ah, said way more better and eloquently than I could have managed. XD Hah! Well done. I agree with you mostly. :3

@Gala- Mm, it is like the circle, somewhat... But without the circle, mages would not be able to learn of the dangers. The circle provides a community for young mages to learn of the threat that the demons and Fade pose, so without it you can't know if they'll learn that as well as they would. There's no guarantee that family will know or teach them of it. So the circle, in my opinion, is a necessary 'evil.' Perhaps it can be made more into a school than prison, though.

This is an interesting discussion. I like it. XD

Back on Cullen-topic... I've a question.
During a pro-mage ending, when he lets the Champion go... Is it a look of respect, fear, hate, or what that he gives the Champion? I just want opinions because either way I look, it can be any of those. XD

Modifié par Vaeya, 10 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[RagingCyclone]

Hello all, I just finished recently finished a fourth run on DA2 and just finished the Broken Circle in Origins, and I was thinking about Cullen in both places. I figured this would be the best place to get opinions. So here goes:

Taking the mage origin out and just going from when we meet him in the tower caged, he is convinced that all the mages should be killed. In most cases I don't and when Irving is talking to Gregoir Cullen mentions that there may be demons lying in wait in the mages that survived. He has a paranoia (and understandably so) that mages are terrors to all men. Later in DA2 we find in him Kirkwall under the command of a Templar who shares somewhat similar views that all mages are potential blood mages and abominations lying in wait. So I can see where he would have sought assignment to a knight commander who had a similar view to him. As DA2 progresses he begins to seemingly doubt his previous stance on mages, and in the final act seems to take on more of an outlook like Gregoir had in Ferelden. When you talk to Gregoir, he mentions that it's too much for him to hope to find some mages left alive only to find nothing. Unlike Meredith, Gregoir appears to care about the mages under his charge, and even works well with Irving running the Circle. I have the impression from Cullen that he begins to take on a similar view in Act 3 where he questions Meredith's actions. I think Gregoir was an influence to Cullen that towards the end of DA2 he is becoming a more effective and caring Templar similar to Gregoir.

So my question is did anyone else notice this transition in Cullen (it may have been discussed before, I am uncertain)?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Vaeya wrote...
Back on Cullen-topic... I've a question.
During a pro-mage ending, when he lets the Champion go... Is it a look of respect, fear, hate, or what that he gives the Champion? I just want opinions because either way I look, it can be any of those. XD

I think the look is deliberately vague, so I'm going to nerd out and describe what I think he's thinking for three of my different Hawkes... especially since they embody all three of those possibilities!

Lir is my "wants to save the world and reform Andrasteism" templar, my first playthrough and what I consider my main canon. She and Cullen sort of became friends over the course of the game, I pictured them hanging out socially from time to time. She's also my Andersmance, though. In the end, I think Cullen feels a little betrayed, but at the same time acknowledges that the templars completely screwed up here. I think the look is one of respect there, with a little bit of "Why did it come to this?"

I'm pretty sure Cullen hates Crow, my sociopathic rogue. She's been sucking up to Meredith the entire time, and now she sided with the mages on a whim? I think he's just glad to see the back of her, and relieved she didn't end up as Viscount. (Crow is a terrible person.)

I think he's terrified of my new mage girl Esk, because she represents everything he's afraid to think about. She's a mage who has been free her entire life, she's smarter than him, stronger, and the entire time she's been in Kirkwall she's been freely flaunting her magic and freedom. She reminds him of his Amell, only even more wild and uncontrollable (they even look similar, only she's dark where my Amell was pale). And now she's fought all the templars to a standstill and killed the most powerful templar he's ever known. He's not sure if he can beat her, and he's not sure if he wants to, and that's the most terrifying thing of all. So he lets her saunter out of there, with her arm around her sexy pirate. I feel the worst for Cullen here, as another Amell girl walks out of his life, after throwing his belief system into chaos.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 août 2011 - 08:25 .

[Galagraphia]

@RagingCyclone, hello and welcome!

I noticed that too and I'm not surprised. In Magi Origin Cullen says (to m!mage) that he want's to be like Greagoir when he 'grows up' And I always thought old Greg was some sort of a father figure and an example for him. I think after Uldred Cullen was a bit mad at Greagoir, because "How could he not see that all mages are terrible, horrible demonic creatures???" And with that he came to Meredith, who was: "Sure, and don't forget that they all can become abominations!" But time's a healer, and eventually Cullen recovered and understood that he was wrong. After all, mages fought against the Blight, they were heroes in Ferelden. And the Circle was rebuilt, and now everything is fine in Kinloch Hold. I think that proves something. And I believe with years Cullen softened and returned to his previous course of becoming Greagoir, not Meredith.

[Galagraphia]

Vaeya wrote...
Back on Cullen-topic... I've a question.
During a pro-mage ending, when he lets the Champion go... Is it a look of respect, fear, hate, or what that he gives the Champion? I just want opinions because either way I look, it can be any of those. XD

In my story I allowed Meredith to stab Cullen with her lyrium sword, and he was badly wounded. And Hawke ordered Anders to heal him. Anders wasn't able to heal him properly, because they were in the middle of the fight, so Cullen was still in a bad condition when the fight was over, and he was in a life debt to Anders, and Hawke was ser Carver's sister and an old friend. So he just let them go because how could he not? 

In game, I think it was a mix of respect and gratitude. Besides, Hawke is a Champion. It's not just a word, it means this person saved the city and hundreds of innocents. That's why I think Cullen sided with Hawke in the first place. 

[esper]

Vaeya wrote...

@Cultural- Ah, said way more better and eloquently than I could have managed. XD Hah! Well done. I agree with you mostly. :3

@Gala- Mm, it is like the circle, somewhat... But without the circle, mages would not be able to learn of the dangers. The circle provides a community for young mages to learn of the threat that the demons and Fade pose, so without it you can't know if they'll learn that as well as they would. There's no guarantee that family will know or teach them of it. So the circle, in my opinion, is a necessary 'evil.' Perhaps it can be made more into a school than prison, though.

This is an interesting discussion. I like it. XD

Back on Cullen-topic... I've a question.
During a pro-mage ending, when he lets the Champion go... Is it a look of respect, fear, hate, or what that he gives the Champion? I just want opinions because either way I look, it can be any of those. XD

I think it depends on the Hawke? In my canon playthrough I think it is fear. My diplomatic blood mage Hawke is not so diplomatic anymore after the fisasco with the Arishok and have given up all hope for peaceful solutions. During her whole act three she has done nothing, but stating how much she wants the templars to jump into a hole and die. (not in those words, but...). She is willing to kill every last templar in the court yard and after beating Meridith's walking statues she has also demonstrated she is powerfull enough to do it, so it is definitly fear there.

My spirit healer though, I think he let her goes out of respect. She tried to find a peacefull solution. I didn't happened, but she tried, and I think Cullen respect that and still remember that she saved her life in act 1.

[R2s Muse]

@RagingCyclone - Welcome, and yes, Cullen's evolution through the game is something we've talked about often, and I think you're right. I hadn't thought about Greagoir as a model for him, tho! Very cool! I didn't know he said that explicitly about "growing up" to be like Greg. I keep thinking that in some sense he's seen both extremes of the Circle... one where the mages perhaps had too much leniency and led to Uldred's rebellion, and one where the mages were treated too strictly leading to Orsino's. It nicely illustrates what Cullen's calls the templars' "losing battle" and all they can do is their best to protect everyone, mages and public. What a thankless job!

re: what Cullen is feeling at the end of Act 3 .. I love all the different interpretations which I think underscores that they did a great job with Cullen's expressions. I just love the tension of that final scene, and how the camera focuses in their eyes and such. For the pro-mage ending, I always get the "oh sh!t!" feeling, that although they were just allies moments before, and Cullen clearly respects Hawke, now all bets may be off. They have their little stand-off moment, realize that no one is going to start killing anyone, and then Cullen feels he owes it to Hawke to let him/her go (my most recent pro-mage PT was a dude).






EDIT: Looking through my screenshots, I just had to add one more which makes me laugh -- perhaps the world's girliest templar?? LOL

Modifié par R2s Muse, 10 août 2011 - 12:17 .

[Avilia]

OMG that's hilarious!

I think  Cullen has had enough of killing by then and simply doesn't see why he should also kill Hawke.  He has no reason to, I think.  Even if you side with mages, by that point its all so muddied it doesn't much matter.

That look then hesitation is waiting to see if you'll attack, then when you don't, he backs up to let you leave.

If you play pro Templar I think its pretty much the same except the decision to make Hawke Viscount.  Cullen is the defacto leader of the Templars, he's second in rank to Meredith and perhaps under military rule he's entitled to now appoint a civilian leader.

The bow, like his stepping back so obviously, gives clear signal to the other Templars of his intentions and they follow his lead.

Eh, my reading of it anyways...

(And no, I don't side with the Templars just for the bow... )

Oh edit - just to add my screenie to the mix :

Modifié par Avilia, 10 août 2011 - 01:06 .

[Galagraphia]

@R2, actually Greagoir wasn't the kindest commander in the world, he was very strict. For example, in the official comic he ordered to kill pregnant escaped mage girl It seemed OOC then, but I guess he had his crazy anti-mage moments too when he was younger. Because later in the same comic (17 years later) he was nice and very understanding. Also, he didn't want to send mages to Ostagar, didn't want Duncan to recruit the mage warden, and they were fighting with Irving about everything. And his templars were vigilant enough to discover that Jowan was a blood mage. So I don't think Uldred's rebellion was Greagoir's fault. Though Greg probably blamed himself, because one of the epilogues said that Greg left the templars and became a monk. I think it happens if Irving dies.

But anyway, Fereldan Circle was more fun, everyone was kissing everybody And not just kissing, if we can trust Wynne

(and that templar girl always makes me giggle, she's just so... girly XD)

[Galagraphia]

Wow, I just noticed that our thread is only 10 pages less than Sebastian's, and Sebastian is a companion and you can marry him! He's a DLC of course, but still it's great that an NPC like Cullen can have so much love

[Avilia]

Galagraphia wrote...

Wow, I just noticed that our thread is only 10 pages less than Sebastian's, and Sebastian is a companion and you can marry him! He's a DLC of course, but still it's great that an NPC like Cullen can have so much love

Nice   Imagine what would happen if Cullen was a full companion or LI?

[R2s Muse]

Galagraphia wrote...

Wow, I just noticed that our thread is only 10 pages less than Sebastian's, and Sebastian is a companion and you can marry him! He's a DLC of course, but still it's great that an NPC like Cullen can have so much love

Hee hee, I know! And, the fact that we've been on page one of the NPC forums for forever... for an ostensibly minor character! Yay, Cullen love!

And, you know, Gala that's good point about Greagoir. I had just been imagining Cullen would think that... that perhaps the Ferelden Circle had been too lenient, hence ... badness occurs. But, you know, I'm realizing now I don't think I've ever seen the DA:O comics. Do you know where I could find them...?

@Avilia - agree.. altho I one difference I noticed between pro-mage and pro-templar endings is that I only seemed to get sad Cullen puppy eyes after pro-templar -- but that could be a fluke of my itchy screenshot finger

Modifié par R2s Muse, 10 août 2011 - 01:15 .

[RagingCyclone]

R2...In the Mage Origin there are hints that although Gregoir may appear lenient he isn't. If as the warden you choose to betray Jowan and question Irving about his becoming tranquil, Irving mentions that Gregoir has proof and eyewitness testimony that Jowan used blood magic. So I got the impression that Gregoir was not lenient but more diligent. He gets proof and documents before moving forward with the Right of Tranquility. And don't forget that Irminric had Jowan captured near Redcliffe until Loghain's men interfered. Even without his phylactery Jowan was a caught mage.

Galagraphia...the moment I saw the big change in maturity for Cullen I feel was in the pro-Templar runs when the three mages surrender. Meredith wants them all killed, but Cullen steps in and supercedes her to accept their surrender and has them escorted to safety. For me that was the single most poignant moment where Cullen comes into his own where instead of blindly following the orders despite his feelings, he acts for what he feels is right and just.

edit: as for Cullen's reaction near the end, before the battle with Meredith, Cullen admits to planning with her to arrest Hawke and not kill him/her.  That look I always took as apprehension to what Hawke will do next knowing about that plan. When Hawke doesn't attack Cullen could be leery or relieved about what kind of grudge Hawke could or could not be holding against him.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 10 août 2011 - 02:08 .

[Yankee23]

At the end I always took Cullen's mention of arresting Hawke as pretty much following orders. Meredith has not shown how completely bonkers she is yet and she is his commanding officer. Whether there was mention of killing Hawke before and he objected so she just placated him or she just didn't show her true intentions until that point, idk. But when it comes down to it he feels it's wrong and steps up.

Edit: I've always liked Gregoir in my own way. I see him and Irving as grumpy old friends and feel that they really do run the circle together. It's just my interpretation, but in my mage playthroughs I see everything that Gregoir says after catching you helping Jowan as stern dissappointment. I feel he's angry because a mage made a stupid mistake and ruined all the potential they had and not because he's all "OMG, See!! All mages are evil and must be locked up!"

Modifié par Yankee23, 10 août 2011 - 02:39 .

[RagingCyclone]

Yankee...oh agree he's following the orders of his commanding officer, and you are right about Cullen stepping up. It's the reaction to Hawke at the end where I think he is concerned what Hawke is thinking. Does Hawke understand that up to that point he was following orders, or does Hawke think he was complicit in Meredith's plans? Cullen does not up to that point know what Hawke's reaction will be.

[R2s Muse]

@Yankee, yeah, I guess I got the grumpy old men sense from Irving and Greagoir as well... well said! But, admittedly, I don't remember DA:O as clearly these days. And, RagingCyclone, "diligent" is probably a good word to describe Greg compared w Meredith. I like that.

re: arresting Hawke, indeed, I keep imagining Hawke and Cullen talking later about that fact.

"Sooo, were you really going to arrest me that day?"

Cullen blushes, but answers, "Um, unfortunately, yes. But that would have been better than the alternative! OH look at that cloud... it looks a bit like a bunny rabbit."

p.s. RagingCyclone, love you sig quote! Best. Movie. Ever.