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Official Knight-Captain Cullen Fan Thread. Voice Actor: Greg Ellis


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#1451
Chun Hei

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Aeowyn wrote...

I think I mage would be very lucky if they got a trial. If you decide to side with the Templars in DAO, Irving (if he is alive) and the survivng mages are sent of for brutal interrogations. No trials. The Rite of Annulment is to kill every mage in the specific Circle, without trial. The only thing a Knight-Commander needs in order to proceed with it, is the approval of a Grand Cleric.


I am sure that any mage arrested during a Rite would be brutally interegated and as you pointed out in DA:O the Templars did have the option to take mages alive and not just execute them.

#1452
Aeowyn

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Chun Hei wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I think I mage would be very lucky if they got a trial. If you decide to side with the Templars in DAO, Irving (if he is alive) and the survivng mages are sent of for brutal interrogations. No trials. The Rite of Annulment is to kill every mage in the specific Circle, without trial. The only thing a Knight-Commander needs in order to proceed with it, is the approval of a Grand Cleric.


I am sure that any mage arrested during a Rite would be brutally interegated and as you pointed out in DA:O the Templars did have the option to take mages alive and not just execute them.


Those interrogations were so brutal that when Irving was finally released after a year (or was it two?) he had lost his spirit and lived the rest of his life in seclusion in the Circle of Orlais. In that case you'd think death would be more merciful.

Besides, do you think Meredith would accept the surrender of any mage if Hawke wasn't there? I think that Cullen had doubt about her, and doubt about the mages, and in the end he saw Meredith for what she was.

#1453
Bekkael

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Zooming in for a quick topper pic of two of my favorite guys...

Carver gooses Cullen during the final battle! :o

Image IPB

#1454
Chun Hei

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Aeowyn wrote...

Besides, do you think Meredith would accept the surrender of any mage if Hawke wasn't there? I think that Cullen had doubt about her, and doubt about the mages, and in the end he saw Meredith for what she was.


Meredith? No. I metagamed and watched as she happily killed Bethany even after she had helped the Templars take down Orsino.

Realistically I think Cullen would be more merciful IF the Warden had saved the Circle and he saw that executing all mages was not the only solution. Unfortunately the DA:O choices were not reflected in DA2 very well.

#1455
Chun Hei

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Bekkael wrote...

Zooming in for a quick topper pic of two of my favorite guys...

Carver gooses Cullen during the final battle! :o

[Tragic snip.]


:o

#1456
Aeowyn

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Chun Hei wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Besides, do you think Meredith would accept the surrender of any mage if Hawke wasn't there? I think that Cullen had doubt about her, and doubt about the mages, and in the end he saw Meredith for what she was.


Meredith? No. I metagamed and watched as she happily killed Bethany even after she had helped the Templars take down Orsino.

Realistically I think Cullen would be more merciful IF the Warden had saved the Circle and he saw that executing all mages was not the only solution. Unfortunately the DA:O choices were not reflected in DA2 very well.


But that didn't matter to him, because at that point he had just gotten out of his cage where he had been mentally tortured by Blood mages and demons for who knows how long. When the Warden tells Greagoir that it's safe, Cullen protests very loudly. Sure, with time and healing (Greenfell) he got better, but that kind of torture wasn't something he forgot, and it made him more cautious and stricter when it came to mages.

#1457
Bekkael

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That one always gives me a laugh. :lol:

Okay, play time's over, back to writing.

Toodles, Cullenites!

#1458
Avilia

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 @R2s Muse - lmao that is hilarious - thanks for sharing
@ Gala :o
My weekend plans include having Monday and Tuesday off work :wizard: as Wednesday is a public holiday here.  Woo and Hoo!!!

#1459
Xilizhra

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Aeowyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

See Best Served Cold. Not all templars will follow Meredith off her cliff; duty alone isn't an excuse.


See Broken Circle. Then see Cullen in the cage.

I have. I raise you Keran in another cage.

#1460
Aeowyn

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Xilizhra wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

See Best Served Cold. Not all templars will follow Meredith off her cliff; duty alone isn't an excuse.


See Broken Circle. Then see Cullen in the cage.

I have. I raise you Keran in another cage.


IIRC Idunna said that she lured Keran to the blood mages two weeks earlier. Considering the time line, I'd say Cullen's cage lasted longer than that.

#1461
Xilizhra

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Aeowyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

See Best Served Cold. Not all templars will follow Meredith off her cliff; duty alone isn't an excuse.


See Broken Circle. Then see Cullen in the cage.

I have. I raise you Keran in another cage.


IIRC Idunna said that she lured Keran to the blood mages two weeks earlier. Considering the time line, I'd say Cullen's cage lasted longer than that.

The Origins timeline is floating, bizarre, and allows for no accurate assumptions, so I don't think you can say much in that regard.

#1462
miraclemight

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Well, Cullen himself says it took "Weeks?...Months?... It was one unending nightmare".

Edit: Btw, I like your signature image, Xil. The irony of Elthina's statement never gets old.

Modifié par miraclemight, 12 août 2011 - 10:46 .


#1463
Xilizhra

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It doesn't sound like he's measuring time very accurately, then.

And thanks.

#1464
Galagraphia

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Xilizhra wrote...

That's what I meant. Why wasn't he prepared to kill Hawke along with every other mage?


I found the answer in the Codex:

... champion is not an appointment that can be sought. It cannot be owned or willed, and the process by which it is bestowed is not argued through policy or guile. It is earned with blood and sweat and leadership in times of great turmoil. Always worthy, as their deeds are of true importance, a champion is greeted not by debate, but by nods of reverence.

I think it means that Hawke is not just a powerful nobleman, he's a symbol, a hero, he's revered by the entire city, and he earned that. Hawke's exploits were so great that Meredith couldn't do anything to the apostate Hawke during the last 3 years. And that's why Cullen orders Meredith's men to "listen to the Champion" during the RoA - Hawke's words have more weight than knight-commander's. That's why in the end all templars support Cullen, not Meredith (and not just because she starts to glow red).

Why does Cullen participate in the RoA at all?
My thoughts:
1) He was in the Gallows when Anders blew up the Chantry and he doesn't know exactly what had happened. I imagine what he saw was Orsino comming back with the first boat and the templars who chased him with the second. What one of those  templars could briefly report? Something like: "Blasted robes destroyed the Chantry and murdered our brothers and the Grand Cleric who were inside! Death to every single one! Commander invoked the Right of Annulment!"  So, since the first seconds of RoA Cullen didn't know that the Circle mages were innocent, and I doubt templars stopped to explain that to him. He could hear Meredith and Orsino talk, but without knowing what it all was about, I think he could only get confused.

2) Then the templars enter the Gallows, mages start using blood magic, summon demons, become abominations. Those must be killed, that's what the order dictates, those mages are dangerous, and their corruption is obvious. But even after that he still hopes to save some mages in the Circle, and he's trying to talk Meredith into sparing those who surrender. I doubt she would listen to him without Hawke's help though. But this was not enough to make him turn against her. Maybe he wanted, but he's not a full: if templars start fighting against each other while the danger is hovering above Kirkwall (the real danger now - abominations are everywhere by that time), they all will be killed by blood mages and demons, and there will be no one to defend the city. So he swallows his objections and waits till the fight is over.

3) When the fight is over, Meredith wants to kill the Champion. And as I wrote earlier, I believe that before that she told her men that they will only arrest Hawke. And her arguments why they must kill Hawke now Cullen finds unconvincing. Besides, earlier he wanted to spare 3 mages who could be blood mages. And now it's the Champion! Not just a random mage. It's the hero of the city, defender of people and faith (because Hawke stopped heathens) - that's how Cullen sees Hawke. So he sides with Hawke. 

#1465
john-in-france

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Cullen did not harm any mages that tried to surrender. I have played Mage ending 5 times and Templar ending 7 times. Cullen stands up to Meredith just after the first Blood mage fight in the Gallows. To me this is his first shining moment and my warden Amell is very proud of him.

Take Cullens part here as Hawke, and say that you want to hear what Cullen has to say, and he defys Meredith over the surrendered mages, when she wants to kill them rather than take the risk that they are blood mages. He then says, that letting them live and protecting them is what being a Templar is all about. (I happen to agree, not all of us do the hard core Templar ending of killing everyone)

His stand against Meredith later, is icing on the cake.

As I said before, Act 3 Cullen, a man of principle and balls!

#1466
miraclemight

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john-in-france wrote...

Act 3 Cullen: a man of principle and balls!


Lol. Someone should turn that into a signature. Anyone with Photoshop skills willing to that, or should I take up the shield myself when I'm less busy?

#1467
Xilizhra

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Cullen's a fair-weather friend at best, and likely an enemy after his convenient killing of his commander finishes up.

#1468
R2s Muse

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Xilizhra wrote...

Cullen's a fair-weather friend at best, and likely an enemy after his convenient killing of his commander finishes up.


Well, we won't really know where Cullen stands until we get his (promised by Jennifer Hepler) post-Act3 conclusion. But I think the fact that, after Meredith is defeated, he chooses to let Hawke go in either ending suggests otherwise. I personally think it's an evolution of his character as opposed to flip-flopping.

On another topic: Can anyone tell me when/where we find out that Meredith had already requested the Right of Annulment, but went around Elthina to do so...? I've been looking around the wiki to find something definitive, and failing. Thanks in advance!!

#1469
Xilizhra

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It still seems likely that he'll make himself an enemy of mages in general, as it's pretty much what he's always acted as except for the very beginning of Origins.

#1470
miraclemight

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Doesn't that actually depend on what is going to happen after the Gallows? It all depends on what writers have in mind for him.

Did anyone expect Anders to become so depressing? No. Did anyone expect Justice who had giggle-worthy conversations with Oghren become that much unbearable to talk to? No. Did anyone expect Cullen not to go bonkers and attack their MageHawke when they met him for the first time on their first playthroughs? No. Did anyone expect Lelianna to pick up her head from the floor near the ashes, or somewhere in a burned down Lothering and appear in Faith? No...

You get the idea. Image IPB

#1471
R2s Muse

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Xilizhra wrote...

It still seems likely that he'll make himself an enemy of mages in general, as it's pretty much what he's always acted as except for the very beginning of Origins.


Hmm, I guess I just really don't agree with this sentence, as I don't see any of his actions during DA2 as showing himself to be an "enemy of mages." (note: this is in contrast to the DA:O epilogues, where apparently he has the option of going batsh!t crazy; but it seems those epilogues may no longer be canon). When he discusses them in DA2, he talks about their potential dangers and the importance of safeguards around them, but not unreasoning hatred. Even in Act 1 -- when arguably he is still experiencing his PTSD --  he regrets the deaths of the Starkhaven mages (if they were perceived to have died). He believes that the Right of Tranquility is a mercy for mages who would otherwise be killed following the Harrowing. Galagraphia has discussed this point more eloquently within the recent pages, so I defer to that.

#1472
Xilizhra

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He's a loyalist templar, and the way the Templar Order works in modern times is pretty much as an enemy of mages, albeit sometimes a less bad one than the demons and suchlike. He may not hate mages, but that doesn't help.

#1473
Bekkael

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R2s Muse wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It still seems likely that he'll make himself an enemy of mages in general, as it's pretty much what he's always acted as except for the very beginning of Origins.


Hmm, I guess I just really don't agree with this sentence, as I don't see any of his actions during DA2 as showing himself to be an "enemy of mages." (note: this is in contrast to the DA:O epilogues, where apparently he has the option of going batsh!t crazy; but it seems those epilogues may no longer be canon). When he discusses them in DA2, he talks about their potential dangers and the importance of safeguards around them, but not unreasoning hatred. Even in Act 1 -- when arguably he is still experiencing his PTSD --  he regrets the deaths of the Starkhaven mages (if they were perceived to have died). He believes that the Right of Tranquility is a mercy for mages who would otherwise be killed following the Harrowing. Galagraphia has discussed this point more eloquently within the recent pages, so I defer to that.


I just typed a long response, then lost it. Stupid browser and crazy netbook. Anyway, the short response is I agree with R2. I think Cullen is driven by duty as well as compassion for mages. I don't see him as a hardliner or mage hater, AT ALL.

Chapter five of Twisted is done, as of 2 AM. It's twenty-four pages long and over ten thousand words. Now, the editing begins. :pinched: It was the most challenging thing I have ever written, and I really hope it works.  Thanks for listening to me rant about it, guys, I really appreciate it.

#1474
Xilizhra

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He's a hardliner compared to many others, like most of the three recruits we see chatting in the Gallows, plus Wilmod and Keran and Thrask.

#1475
R2s Muse

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Xilizhra wrote...

He's a loyalist templar, and the way the Templar Order works in modern times is pretty much as an enemy of mages, albeit sometimes a less bad one than the demons and suchlike. He may not hate mages, but that doesn't help.


I guess this really depends on your definition of an "enemy," and if templars and mages, by their very nature, must necessarily be enemies. I personally don't think so. In Cullen's case, for example, he specifically supports allowing mages to surrender at the end (so arguably acting in a non-enemy-like way), because he "believe[s] that's what  being a templar is about."

He's a hardliner compared to many others, like most of the three
recruits we see chatting in the Gallows, plus Wilmod and Keran and
Thrask.

Again, I think here we need to define what the continuum is upon which he is a hardliner. Going from Alrik & Karras to Thrask & Keran, I would say Cullen is in the middle. (I would argue that we don't actually know where Wilmod and the 3 recruits really stand, but that is neither here nor there).  Does Cullen believe there should be a Circle? Absolutely. But, should the whole Circle be Annulled in Kirkwall? Cullen would, and does, say no.

Anyhoo, @Bekkael, yay! 10,000 words? Wowza. Looking forward!