1890 réponses à ce sujet

[Avilia]

Both I think R2...both.

I'm going to be controversial here - I believe some people don't like Cullen because:

1)  he doesn't agree with whatever their Hawke thinks
2)  he has the hide to have his own beliefs and opinions
3)  he's a Templar

I like him for all of those reasons, but I'm odd like that ;-)  

I've never found anything he says to be particularly extreme tbh - he's voicing his view based on the information he has /shrug.  Personally I'd like to smother Anders with a pillow in the first Act but I don't go around saying that, because its only my opinion and I know others like him.

I've seen some posts saying they don't like Cullen because he comes to take Bethany to the Circle.  If you think about it, Cullen is Knight- Captain, why would he come just to fetch an apostate?  He comes because he knows Hawke and obviously has some respect for him/her and perhaps to ensure Bethany gets to the Circle in one piece.

Eh, I'm obviously riding on my soap box today... 

Edit - Oh good one, highlight my inflammatory post by putting it at the ToP.  Puppy dog eyes for illustration then.

Modifié par Avilia, 21 août 2011 - 12:24 .

[Xilizhra]

1) he doesn't agree with whatever their Hawke thinks
2) he has the hide to have his own beliefs and opinions
3) he's a Templar

Some of us are touchy about the Annulment. Though, oddly, Carver is actually worse in that regard.
Also the "mages aren't people" line.

[Avilia]

Xilizhra wrote...

1) he doesn't agree with whatever their Hawke thinks
2) he has the hide to have his own beliefs and opinions
3) he's a Templar

Some of us are touchy about the Annulment. Though, oddly, Carver is actually worse in that regard.
Also the "mages aren't people" line.

Carver is very bitter isn't he?   I find it less acceptable from him because it sounds like he's saying it just to get at Hawke.

[Xilizhra]

Carver never says anything like that, he just goes along with the Annulment. I almost wish there was an option to kill him... though I sometimes wish the same about Cullen.

[Avilia]

Xilizhra wrote...

Carver never says anything like that, he just goes along with the Annulment. I almost wish there was an option to kill him... though I sometimes wish the same about Cullen.

Sorry I didn't mean the people line, just his comments on mages and magic generally.

hehe - I think we all wish we could kill some of the unkillable characters at times...

[Monica21]

Avilia wrote...

Both I think R2...both.

I'm going to be controversial here - I believe some people don't like Cullen because:

1)  he doesn't agree with whatever their Hawke thinks
2)  he has the hide to have his own beliefs and opinions
3)  he's a Templar

I like him for all of those reasons, but I'm odd like that ;-)  

I've never found anything he says to be particularly extreme tbh - he's voicing his view based on the information he has /shrug.  Personally I'd like to smother Anders with a pillow in the first Act but I don't go around saying that, because its only my opinion and I know others like him.

I've seen some posts saying they don't like Cullen because he comes to take Bethany to the Circle.  If you think about it, Cullen is Knight- Captain, why would he come just to fetch an apostate?  He comes because he knows Hawke and obviously has some respect for him/her and perhaps to ensure Bethany gets to the Circle in one piece.

I'm only in my second playthrough and halfway through act 3, but I'd wager that some of the Cullen dislike is a carryover from Origins. I honestly did find him a bit creepy in my mage playthrough, but gained some respect for the fact that he was the only Templar left who didn't break in the Tower.

Cullen's experiences with mages are in the extremes, really. He went from just standing around, to "hey, you might have to kill this girl you have a secret crush on" to trying to stay alive while they turn into abominations and tortured him and also probably had lyrium withdrawal. His time away from Ferelden's Circle seems to have tempered him quite a bit though, so much so that he'll always stand with you no matter which side you choose. I really would have thought he'd have been totally in Meredith's corner, but he's expressing doubt about her early in act 2, which tells me his opinion of what he thinks a Templar's job is and what Meredith is actually doing are at odds and more divisive than he would let on to an outsider.

I don't remember when he says "mages aren't people" so I don't know how to comment on that.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

One of the things that makes me find Cullen fans and fics particularly interesting is the balance between mage and templar points of view. Many Cullen fans at least played the mage origins, and Amell still seems like the most common cullen pairing, so most of the Cullen writing and fic is about two people with very extreme views working together to find some kind of compromise... and that's exactly what I want to see, more than anything.

By the end of Dragon Age Origins, Cullen has seen the worst mages can be or do. By the end of DA2, he's seen the Templars go pretty far off the rails as well. He has a unique perspective that nobody else in the world really has... though it is, of course, colored by his upbringing and sense of duty... he doesn't have a truly moderate view, but he's shown interest in developing one, and that should be encouraged.

People see Cullen and they think he's intractable, because of the kinds of things he says in Act 1 and because he advocates the Annulment in Origins. Also, to some extent, because he's seen as "creepy" (as is Anders), because he carries a torch for the PC for several years, regardless of whether or not she expressed any interest in him.

What people fail to see is that Cullen at least has the capacity to feel true compassion for mages, and to moderate his beliefs over time... something no other major Chantry-affiliated character I can think of has strongly expressed. He's still fairly anti-mage by act three, and while I strongly disagree with siding with the Templars, he's the only one I actually respect in the whole place. I think a lot of people lump Cullen in with the templar institution in general... and the institution itself is badly flawed. If you're going to blame Meredith for things like Alrik, why not blame Cullen too? I personally blame Meredith but don't really blame Cullen, mostly for reasons of agency and conditioning.

While normally I'm all about making people complicit in the Chantry's abuses take responsibility for them, I can also understand Cullen's point of view, especially if we take it as read that he was "given" to the Chantry at a young age, as a bastard or an orphan or whatever. Raised to value obedience and duty, the fact that he developed the capability to question his leaders at all is remarkable, and I can't fault him for continuing to value obedience and duty over free will through conflict and disobedience... even though I wouldn't make the same choices, they make sense for him. He'd need a lot of outside support to overcome that kind of conditioning, and that isn't immediately forthcoming (barring a sympathetic mage friend.)

If I were trying to establish a new system, different from the circle but also not a system of complete chaos, I'd want someone like Cullen around to give input. I'd like to think that Amell comes around after the end game and tries to get Cullen to come with her, to help the mages not make the same mistakes as Tevinter. I think we'll always need people with Templar abilities, and it's far better to have them be people like Alistair or Cullen than your average templar.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 01:03 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't know. It sort of seems like letting Cullen off the hook a bit too easily; Keran was also caged by demon-using mages, but he didn't let the experience sour him completely. The only difference of circumstance I can think of is that he didn't see the Circle fall, but it seems relatively small and the difference in their reactions huge. I'd trust Keran and Thrask more than I would Cullen.

[Avilia]

Monica21 wrote...

[snipped]

I don't remember when he says "mages aren't people" so I don't know how to comment on that.

Here you go  Its in the dialogue when you hand in "Enemies Among Us" in Act 1.  I chose mage oriented dialogue but there are other answers he give iirc.  His line about people and mages is pretty much the same whichever you choose I think.

You tube

[Monica21]

Avilia wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

[snipped]

I don't remember when he says "mages aren't people" so I don't know how to comment on that.

Here you go  Its in the dialogue when you hand in "Enemies Among Us" in Act 1.  I chose mage oriented dialogue but there are other answers he give iirc.  His line about people and mages is pretty much the same whichever you choose I think.

You tube

Ah, that part. Thank you! I do remember it now. I haven't played a mage yet but he says it regardless. That's utterly different from his rant to Greagoir about killing all the mages though. And really, I understand his point. Mages don't need a sword; they are their own weapons. 

And now I'm thinking entirely too much about the mage/Chantry relationship. I don't think a mage who thinks she should just be able to be free of Templars is going to be convinced by better education. It's very possible to be an Andrastian and believe that Andraste's words have been misinterpreted.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. It sort of seems like letting Cullen off the hook a bit too easily; Keran was also caged by demon-using mages, but he didn't let the experience sour him completely. The only difference of circumstance I can think of is that he didn't see the Circle fall, but it seems relatively small and the difference in their reactions huge. I'd trust Keran and Thrask more than I would Cullen.

I don't think that Keran saw nearly the degree of horrific things that Cullen saw. Cullen saw his own brothers killed and tortured and mages tortured into agreeing to become abominations. Not to mention the demons taunting him. I don't remember anything like that with Keran. When you find Keran he just looks unconcious. Cullen was very much awake for a very long time.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. It sort of seems like letting Cullen off the hook a bit too easily; Keran was also caged by demon-using mages, but he didn't let the experience sour him completely. The only difference of circumstance I can think of is that he didn't see the Circle fall, but it seems relatively small and the difference in their reactions huge. I'd trust Keran and Thrask more than I would Cullen.

I don't think that Keran saw nearly the degree of horrific things that Cullen saw. Cullen saw his own brothers killed and tortured and mages tortured into agreeing to become abominations. Not to mention the demons taunting him. I don't remember anything like that with Keran. When you find Keran he just looks unconcious. Cullen was very much awake for a very long time.

He was trapped in a more-or-less permanent nightmare with a desire demon's claws stuck in his chest and trying to possess him, I believe.

[miraclemight]

I think how much you like or dislike Cullen depends on what type and class your Hawke is, and of course, what happens to Bethany. I always like to chop his head off in Gamlen's hovel everytime he takes away the younger sister to the Circle, but I'm actually quite fine with him in other playthroughs.

In short - it really depends on the kind of impression he left on you the first time you were playing the game. And first impressions are not easy to forgot.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
He was trapped in a more-or-less permanent nightmare with a desire demon's claws stuck in his chest and trying to possess him, I believe.

It could be the fault of the storytelling, but I certainly didn't get near the same level of fear and genuine terror from Keran that I got from Cullen. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be compared, but I don't see it to the same degree. And, it's worth mentioning that Cullen was around these mages for years and trusted them only to have them turn against him in his own Tower. Keran wasn't in the Circle when you find him, but I can't remember if they were mages from Kirkwall's circle or not.

[R2s Muse]

Well said, CGG. I very much agree. Although, in some cases, people got intrigued by Cullen solely based on DA2, like myself. That's because I see him as one of the more rational and considerate people in the game, and have since my first (pro-mage, incidentally) playthrough. I think his attempts to find a better a way and evolve, as you mentioned, are what make him so interesting. He admittedly has issues, but struggles with them. As Monica mentioned, as early as Act 2, he is expressing doubts. Like CGG said, the fact that he would even express those doubts is remarkable. He even tells Hawke that he "would never again question the purpose of the Order" and yet he continues to do so throughout Act 3, and throughout the final  encounters.

I think there are folks who don't like him because they're offended by the things he says early on about mages, like the "mages cannot be treated like people" lines. While, yes, some of this is repugnant, he also has significant sympathy for mages throughout the game--in spite of having seen first hand how some mages really are "weapons...who can light a city on fire." But, if this made you mad, it made you mad; sometimes it's hard to get around that. 

But then, I agree, I think there are folks who don't like him because he is a Templar, and the whole Templar Order is bad/evil/whatever. Regardless of who really represents the "true" Templar Order, Cullen's view of it is different from Meredith's, which is ultimately why he turns against her in the end. I think that fact is often lost.

What's (also) tough about discussing the pro- and con-Cullen arguments, is that if Hawke says really pro-templar or really anti-templar things to him, he doesn't show that much evolution. Whereas, if you try to help him see the "better way" he will try to do so. This is something I like - that you can be that positive influence on him. But, if your Hawke didn't do that, then you might not see that side of him -- or at least not until he, you know, freakin' switches sides and turns on his superior officer in order to do what he thinks is right in support of what the Order truly stands for.

[Xilizhra]

But then, I agree, I think there are folks who don't like him because he is a Templar, and the whole Templar Order is bad/evil/whatever. Regardless of who really represents the "true" Templar Order, Cullen's view of it is different from Meredith's, which is ultimately why he turns against her in the end. I think that fact is often lost.

The Templar Order is evil and corrupt, yes. In my view, anyway. If Cullen supports it in its current form, he's complicit and I cannot support him, and if he fights against me in the mage revolution, I'll kill him without sorrow.

And I don't give Cullen a huge amount of credit for siding against someone who'd gone so completely bat**** that she was accusing absolutely everyone of being a blood mage thrall. It's not the world's hardest decision to make.

[R2s Muse]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
He was trapped in a more-or-less permanent nightmare with a desire demon's claws stuck in his chest and trying to possess him, I believe.

It could be the fault of the storytelling, but I certainly didn't get near the same level of fear and genuine terror from Keran that I got from Cullen. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be compared, but I don't see it to the same degree. And, it's worth mentioning that Cullen was around these mages for years and trusted them only to have them turn against him in his own Tower. Keran wasn't in the Circle when you find him, but I can't remember if they were mages from Kirkwall's circle or not.

I  have to agree with Monica here. I can't see what Keran went through as nearly as harrowing as what Cullen suffered. Granted, they both got tortured by desire demons toying with them, but Cullen was basically caged in the front row of Fereldan Tower's nightmare central, so seeing the entire Tower tortured and killed before his eyes. The time scales are hard to define, since the duration of each basically depends on how long it took you, the PC, to go save each of them.    But, using the result on each of them isn't really a good argument. Cullen could be more traumatized because his torture was more severe  or because he is weaker of character than Keran. From other indicators, I'd personally opt again the latter, but who really knows...

[Monica21]

R2s Muse wrote...

Well said, CGG. I very much agree. Although, in some cases, people got intrigued by Cullen solely based on DA2, like myself. That's because I see him as one of the more rational and considerate people in the game, and have since my first (pro-mage, incidentally) playthrough. I think his attempts to find a better a way and evolve, as you mentioned, are what make him so interesting. He admittedly has issues, but struggles with them.

Even the reason that he has these issues are what make him interesting. He's not damning mages anymore or willing to annul the Tower on the off chance one might be an abomination. He does have very strict standards about the Order and the Chantry, but if he did a 180 and started agreeing that mages should have freedom then he wouldn't be Cullen. I think it makes him much more interesting that he doesn't agree and really, he probably never will.

I think there are folks who don't like him because they're offended by the things he says early on about mages, like the "mages cannot be treated like people" lines. While, yes, some of this is repugnant, he also has significant sympathy for mages throughout the game--in spite of having seen first hand how some mages really are "weapons...who can light a city on fire." But, if this made you mad, it made you mad; sometimes it's hard to get around that.

I agree with this, but I also see the "mages cannot be treated like people" as "mages should be treated like weapons." Not a significant difference for some, but somewhat significant to me. It is fact that mages can be influenced against their will and I think Cullen sees this as protecting mages from themselves as much as anyone else. Again, not something I agree with, but it's more interesting if he doesn't.

[Avilia]

Monica21 wrote...

[snipped]

And now I'm thinking entirely too much about the mage/Chantry relationship. I don't think a mage who thinks she should just be able to be free of Templars is going to be convinced by better education. It's very possible to be an Andrastian and believe that Andraste's words have been misinterpreted.

Optomism thy name is Cullen.  He's a true believer in Andraste and the Chant/Chantry.  I've noticed that people who believe fervently in something often think they need only explain their reasons to convert others to their way of thinking.

They're always surprised if that doesn't happen.

I'm speaking particularly of religious folk not anyone else (in case I'm misinterpreted as meaning anyone else).  For me Cullen's bottom line is he's a Templar.  Its what he believes in and who he is.  Every idea I have of his character starts from that point.

I like that he's a true believer - its a good contrast in game to the two other ends of the spectrum, ie, the Thrasks and the Ulriks. 


Edit - Am I the only one who says "foreshadow much" when he says that about "lighting a city on fire"?

Modifié par Avilia, 21 août 2011 - 02:28 .

[Vicious]

I like his voice. He could voice my protagonist anytime.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Templar Order is evil and corrupt, yes. In my view, anyway. If Cullen supports it in its current form, he's complicit and I cannot support him, and if he fights against me in the mage revolution, I'll kill him without sorrow.

And I don't give Cullen a huge amount of credit for siding against someone who'd gone so completely bat**** that she was accusing absolutely everyone of being a blood mage thrall. It's not the world's hardest decision to make.

Well, to be fair to Meredith (I don't think I'll say that again), nearly everyone was a blood mage at that point. After I sided with the mages I was still running into blood mages and circle mages who wanted to kill me, and then the First Enchanter did his Harvester impression. At that point though, you can't really run back and tell the Templars you made a mistake.

[Avilia]

Vicious wrote...

I like his voice. He could voice my protagonist anytime.

I'd never play a female char again... 

[R2s Muse]

Avilia wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

[snipped]

And now I'm thinking entirely too much about the mage/Chantry relationship. I don't think a mage who thinks she should just be able to be free of Templars is going to be convinced by better education. It's very possible to be an Andrastian and believe that Andraste's words have been misinterpreted.

Optomism thy name is Cullen.  He's a true believer in Andraste and the Chant/Chantry.  I've noticed that people who believe fervently in something often think they need only explain their reasons to convert others to their way of thinking.

I like this! Cullen really is a true believer, isn't he? Indeed, that line about how  with better education, "Perhaps [mages] would not go against the will of Andraste herself." is rather telling. Because, if I had heard somewhere that Andraste herself might even have been a mage... and then I saw all this Circle crap??  whoa.  I'd want a word with Miss Andraste. Reading the Chant again probably wouldn't help too much.

Strangely, the first time I heard him say that about education, I thought it was great, since I always the pictured the Tower working better as a Hogwarts for mages; boarding school that eventually releases them to be productive, working citizens. I didn't think about the fact that that education would end up being... "Here, read the Chant again..."

Edit - Am I the only one who says "foreshadow much" when he says that about "lighting a city on fire"?

Heh, I would have said I must be the only one who didn't pick up on that the first time...

[R2s Muse]

Xilizhra wrote...

But then, I agree, I think there are folks who don't like him because he is a Templar, and the whole Templar Order is bad/evil/whatever. Regardless of who really represents the "true" Templar Order, Cullen's view of it is different from Meredith's, which is ultimately why he turns against her in the end. I think that fact is often lost.

The Templar Order is evil and corrupt, yes. In my view, anyway. If Cullen supports it in its current form, he's complicit and I cannot support him, and if he fights against me in the mage revolution, I'll kill him without sorrow.

And I don't give Cullen a huge amount of credit for siding against someone who'd gone so completely bat**** that she was accusing absolutely everyone of being a blood mage thrall. It's not the world's hardest decision to make.

I guess I'm not so sure about this. Never having been in a military-like organization like the Templars, all I can do is speculate  that insubordination of that sort, mutiny really, seems like a pretty big deal. He agonizes and agonizes over what he should do... is he serving the Order or Meredith? To be fair, she doesn't actually start spouting red fire and really going bat**** crazy til the very end. Up until then, she's paranoid and harsh, but not really irrational. The conversations you can have with her on the pro-templar side, I thought, were quite telling of the method within her madness.

What I also don't know is whether Meredith is typical of the Order or not. Greagoir et al. in Ferelden seemed a bit more balanced.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The Templar Order is evil and corrupt, yes. In my view, anyway. If Cullen supports it in its current form, he's complicit and I cannot support him, and if he fights against me in the mage revolution, I'll kill him without sorrow.

And I don't give Cullen a huge amount of credit for siding against someone who'd gone so completely bat**** that she was accusing absolutely everyone of being a blood mage thrall. It's not the world's hardest decision to make.

Well, to be fair to Meredith (I don't think I'll say that again), nearly everyone was a blood mage at that point. After I sided with the mages I was still running into blood mages and circle mages who wanted to kill me, and then the First Enchanter did his Harvester impression. At that point though, you can't really run back and tell the Templars you made a mistake.

What game did you play? I only saw one blood mage at the Docks, and then a group of them and templars being led by a desire demon, so they were probably enthralled. There were more Circle mages than that whom I saved from the templars. There was no mistake.