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[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
What game did you play? I only saw one blood mage at the Docks, and then a group of them and templars being led by a desire demon, so they were probably enthralled. There were more Circle mages than that whom I saved from the templars. There was no mistake.

Nearly every mage I encountered after siding with the mages attacked me on sight and most were blood mages. I wish I were exaggerating, but I took it as the developers beating me over the head with the "See? Mages can be bad too!" idea.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
What game did you play? I only saw one blood mage at the Docks, and then a group of them and templars being led by a desire demon, so they were probably enthralled. There were more Circle mages than that whom I saved from the templars. There was no mistake.

Nearly every mage I encountered after siding with the mages attacked me on sight and most were blood mages. I wish I were exaggerating, but I took it as the developers beating me over the head with the "See? Mages can be bad too!" idea.

I won't say you're lying, but I'm astonished at how our enemy totals can be so different in the same game. I mean, I finished it post-patch too... I saw barely any enemy mages during the mage ending.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
I won't say you're lying...

Thank you?  

...but I'm astonished at how our enemy totals can be so different in the same game. I mean, I finished it post-patch too... I saw barely any enemy mages during the mage ending.

Mine is fully patched also so I don't know. Perhaps it glitched and I'll have a different experience this time if I side with the mages.

[Xilizhra]

Are you including the enemy mages from Best Served Cold in your tally? I was only talking about The Last Straw.

[R2s Muse]

Errm, are we all talking about only the post-Jenga part of Act 3? In the part where you're fighting your way through the streets to get to the Gallows, no matter whose side you're on, it always seemed to me that you're fighting lots o' mages who turn into abominations left and right. I always thought the pro-mage side then ended up being a bit harder, because you're fighting them and the templars at the same time. But, I didn't get the impression that all of those were necessarily blood mages, but that some were mages who panicked and lost control. Once you're inside the Gallows, on pro-mage... trying to remember, but at that point you pretty much fight templars and some demons, right?

[Xilizhra]

R2s Muse wrote...

Errm, are we all talking about only the post-Jenga part of Act 3? In the part where you're fighting your way through the streets to get to the Gallows, no matter whose side you're on, it always seemed to me that you're fighting lots o' mages who turn into abominations left and right. I always thought the pro-mage side then ended up being a bit harder, because you're fighting them and the templars at the same time. But, I didn't get the impression that all of those were necessarily blood mages, but that some were mages who panicked and lost control. Once you're inside the Gallows, on pro-mage... trying to remember, but at that point you pretty much fight templars and some demons, right?

That's all I fought, ever. There was one blood mage on the docks, but that was it.

[Ryzaki]

Huh. Those mages in the gallows with Merrill certainly used bloodmage.

[Monica21]

R2s Muse wrote...

Errm, are we all talking about only the post-Jenga part of Act 3? In the part where you're fighting your way through the streets to get to the Gallows, no matter whose side you're on, it always seemed to me that you're fighting lots o' mages who turn into abominations left and right. I always thought the pro-mage side then ended up being a bit harder, because you're fighting them and the templars at the same time. But, I didn't get the impression that all of those were necessarily blood mages, but that some were mages who panicked and lost control. Once you're inside the Gallows, on pro-mage... trying to remember, but at that point you pretty much fight templars and some demons, right?

This part. I remember seeing the Blood Mage, Blood Mage, Blood Mage tags over their heads. Once you're inside the Gallows I think you're right, but getting there is really just a bit nutty.

[sylvanaerie]

Xilizhra wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Errm, are we all talking about only the post-Jenga part of Act 3? In the part where you're fighting your way through the streets to get to the Gallows, no matter whose side you're on, it always seemed to me that you're fighting lots o' mages who turn into abominations left and right. I always thought the pro-mage side then ended up being a bit harder, because you're fighting them and the templars at the same time. But, I didn't get the impression that all of those were necessarily blood mages, but that some were mages who panicked and lost control. Once you're inside the Gallows, on pro-mage... trying to remember, but at that point you pretty much fight templars and some demons, right?

That's all I fought, ever. There was one blood mage on the docks, but that was it.

The first fight is against a group of templars who have cornered what appears to be an otherwise 'normal' non blood magey looking girl in Lowtown.  She goes all abomination and you are suddenly fighting templars, shades and the girl as an abomination if you go mage side.
There is another fight, I forget if its Lowtown or Docks *but I think its the docks* where you fight a ton of abominations and a desire demon.
And another fight near the steps going down in Lowtown and out of the zone where you fight a slew of Templars (or mages depending on who you are siding with).  Aside from the one labled "blood mage" on the docks I never got the impression that they were blood mages, regardless of which side you choose.

That said, I really like Cullen.  I don't know if I would want him as a LI in a future game/expansion, but I would like the option to flirt with him.  I always do in the Mage origin, and Cmessaz Cullen mod adds quite a bit to that little mini-romance, enough it satisfies me. 
I also feel of all the characters, he's undergone the most character development in the course of the two games.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 août 2011 - 04:00 .

[R2s Muse]

Agree, sylvanaerie. And, your description of the fights sounds about right.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

(At this point, my perception of the world of Thedas is so divorced from gameplay that I don't add a given mage to the blood mage tally unless I hear their blood-magey-ness discussed outside of combat.)

The whole "mages can't be treated like people" thing sets off bells for me, because people said the same thing about elves, and that's how we got an exalted march and centuries of apartheid. And while I do understand that mages are a different case than elves, who appear to be no more inherently dangerous than any other humanoid we have here... treating mages differently doesn't mean not treating them like people. In the Clans, mages get special training and special treatment, but they're not treated as "non-people," they're treated as people with exceptional responsibilities.

I don't think you'll ever be able to convince Cullen of complete mage freedom, or that they should have no controls on them, but I do hold out hope that it's possible to convince him that mages can be treated like... people.

I don't think you'll ever be able to convince Cullen not to be a templar. I do think that you could have a good old-fashioned Reformation and have him come down on the side of sanity. (This is pretty much what my devoutly Andrastean, Anders-mancing, Templar Hawke wants to do.)

It doesn't say anything in the Chant about mages not being able to get married or have children or live somewhere happily with their non-mage husbands. It doesn't say anything in the Chant about templars having to forsake marriage and family and end up addicted to lyrium (and yes, I know some Templars are able to have families, but it seems fairly rare, and something that causes a lot of angst among templars in general).

One of the things we've seen over and over is templars who want a family, who are desperately unhappy with their lot, who have as little freedom as the mages they will be assigned to watch over. We've also seen a lot of templars suffering from the long-term effects of lyrium, and from lyrium withdrawal, yet Alistair is a perfectly apt templar without it. Why not a branch of the order made up of lay templars, who can serve for a time without taking lyrium, and honorably retire later in life? Why does every noble service in Thedas have to carry with it the promise of eventual madness and death?

Cullen in origins beats himself up over his affection for a mage, but I think that could be used as a stepping stone to get him to take a more nuanced view. I don't envision convincing him not to be a templar, or not to follow the Chant, but I can envision convincing him that the Maker wants him to be happy, that there's no inherent shame in feeling affection for a mage, who is really just another person. I'm not sure if anyone other than a female mage whom he likes could do it, but it's possible.

[miraclemight]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Errm, are we all talking about only the post-Jenga part of Act 3? In the part where you're fighting your way through the streets to get to the Gallows, no matter whose side you're on, it always seemed to me that you're fighting lots o' mages who turn into abominations left and right. I always thought the pro-mage side then ended up being a bit harder, because you're fighting them and the templars at the same time. But, I didn't get the impression that all of those were necessarily blood mages, but that some were mages who panicked and lost control. Once you're inside the Gallows, on pro-mage... trying to remember, but at that point you pretty much fight templars and some demons, right?

That's all I fought, ever. There was one blood mage on the docks, but that was it.

The first fight is against a group of templars who have cornered what appears to be an otherwise 'normal' non blood magey looking girl in Lowtown.  She goes all abomination and you are suddenly fighting templars, shades and the girl as an abomination if you go mage side.
There is another fight, I forget if its Lowtown or Docks *but I think its the docks* where you fight a ton of abominations and a desire demon.
And another fight near the steps going down in Lowtown and out of the zone where you fight a slew of Templars (or mages depending on who you are siding with).  Aside from the one labled "blood mage" on the docks I never got the impression that they were blood mages, regardless of which side you choose.

The biggest fight against abominations is right before catching up with Meredith, in the side of the Circle where Orsino's and Meredith's offices are. It's easy to miss if you're concentrated on just getting out and killing Meredith. Last I check there were 4 abominations, a dozen skeletons, 2 Arcane Horrors, 2 Pride demons,a lot of shades, and several fire traps in that area. Way too many powerful demons to not be a blood magic summoning. (This happens in a pro-mage final fight)

I won't deny that there are good mages in the Circle, but sadly, the majority of its community members are corrupt.

[sylvanaerie]

miraclemight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Errm, are we all talking about only the post-Jenga part of Act 3? In the part where you're fighting your way through the streets to get to the Gallows, no matter whose side you're on, it always seemed to me that you're fighting lots o' mages who turn into abominations left and right. I always thought the pro-mage side then ended up being a bit harder, because you're fighting them and the templars at the same time. But, I didn't get the impression that all of those were necessarily blood mages, but that some were mages who panicked and lost control. Once you're inside the Gallows, on pro-mage... trying to remember, but at that point you pretty much fight templars and some demons, right?

That's all I fought, ever. There was one blood mage on the docks, but that was it.

The first fight is against a group of templars who have cornered what appears to be an otherwise 'normal' non blood magey looking girl in Lowtown.  She goes all abomination and you are suddenly fighting templars, shades and the girl as an abomination if you go mage side.
There is another fight, I forget if its Lowtown or Docks *but I think its the docks* where you fight a ton of abominations and a desire demon.
And another fight near the steps going down in Lowtown and out of the zone where you fight a slew of Templars (or mages depending on who you are siding with).  Aside from the one labled "blood mage" on the docks I never got the impression that they were blood mages, regardless of which side you choose.

The biggest fight against abominations is right before catching up with Meredith, in the side of the Circle where Orsino's and Meredith's offices are. It's easy to miss if you're concentrated on just getting out and killing Meredith. Last I check there were 4 abominations, a dozen skeletons, 2 Arcane Horrors, 2 Pride demons,a lot of shades, and several fire traps in that area. Way too many powerful demons to not be a blood magic summoning. (This happens in a pro-mage final fight)

I won't deny that there are good mages in the Circle, but sadly, the majority of its community members are corrupt.

I wasn't talking about the Gallows, but referring to the city proper.  I only recall seeing one mage labled "Blood Mage" who summons up a bunch of shades and a pride demon (or maybe transforms as I am always too busy at that point to pay much attention where it comes from).
Inside, I suspect there was a lot more blood magic going on.  One of the rooms has a bunch of templars and mages praying and mousing over them the mages are labled "Blood Mage".  I'm not sure if ALL of them are, but several at least.  Entering the room will trigger a fight with everyone present.
There are tons of abominations laying in the hall around Sandal, and like you point out, that one hall that seems to be demon central in the Gallows with 2 pride demons in the room at the end after the Fade Buffet.
But in the city proper, I think I encountered only 1 blood mage.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

There's no evidence that the majority of circle mages are corrupt. There's no way to even make a guess about percentages, as we're never given "total mages in Kirkwall" figures. It could be that every free non-blood mage sensed something fishy about Innsmouth Arkham Kirkwall and decided to get while the getting was plausible, but still.

Also OK, perhaps I'm wrong, but wouldn't most of the mages on the streets after the chantry explosion be non-circle mages anyway? Or is there some explanation I missed about how a bunch of people break out of the gallows, find some rowboats, and row across in the twenty minutes between the chantry explosion and the gallows? The entire point of Anders whole thing is that the templars fail at making Kirkwall stable, and punish the innocent, fairly cooperative mages in the Circle with an annullment because they're convenient to kill. It's pretty much exactly what happens in Game of Thrones when [spoiler] can't find the [spoiler] who attacked her son, so she kills the completely sweet and innocent [spoiler] who happens to be nearby. It's stupid and crazy and makes no sense.

Now, once you get to the Gallows, do some people use blood magic? Sure, but I got the impression that a lot of them were using it for the first time, in an attempt to save their lives. It's like attacking a random city and, when asked why, saying: 
"Well, all those people in that city were murderers"
"Really, the whole city?"
"Yep. When we walked in and started stabbing them with knives, they shot at us! Murderers, they deserved to die!" 

The mages have every reason to believe every single one of them will be murdered. That's what annulment means, you're supposed to kill every single mage, even apprentices, if you're doing it "right." So it's not unreasonable at all for mages to decide to defend themselves however they can, if they think you're about to murder them for no goddamn reason.

I am all for getting rid of all the blood mages. I even facepalm at poor Merrill. I get what she's trying for, I really do, but oh... honey. But I don't think there'd be half as many blood mages in Kirkwall if you didn't house them in a prison built on blood-cursed ground, intimidate and threaten them, and then openly declare that you're going to murder them all. Just a hunch.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 05:21 .

[Monica21]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There's no evidence that the majority of circle mages are corrupt. There's no way to even make a guess about percentages, as we're never given "total mages in Kirkwall" figures. It could be that every free non-blood mage sensed something fishy about Innsmouth Arkham Kirkwall and decided to get while the getting was plausible, but still.

Also OK, perhaps I'm wrong, but wouldn't most of the mages on the streets after the chantry explosion be non-circle mages anyway? Or is there some explanation I missed about how a bunch of people break out of the gallows, find some rowboats, and row across in the twenty minutes between the chantry explosion and the gallows? The entire point of Anders whole thing is that the templars fail at making Kirkwall stable, and punish the innocent, fairly cooperative mages in the Circle with an annullment because they're convenient to kill. It's pretty much exactly what happens in Game of Thrones when [spoiler] can't find the [spoiler] who attacked her son, so she kills the completely sweet and innocent [spoiler] who happens to be nearby. It's stupid and crazy and makes no sense.

Now, once you get to the Gallows, do some people use blood magic? Sure, but I got the impression that a lot of them were using it for the first time, in an attempt to save their lives. It's like attacking a random city and, when asked why, saying: 
"Well, all those people in that city were murderers"
"Really, the whole city?"
"Yep. When we walked in and started stabbing them with knives, they shot at us! Murderers, they deserved to die!" 

The mages have every reason to believe every single one of them will be murdered. That's what annulment means, you're supposed to kill every single mage, even apprentices, if you're doing it "right." So it's not unreasonable at all for mages to decide to defend themselves however they can, if they think you're about to murder them for no goddamn reason.

I am all for getting rid of all the blood mages. I even facepalm at poor Merrill. I get what she's trying for, I really do, but oh... honey. But I don't think there'd be half as many blood mages in Kirkwall if you didn't house them in a prison built on blood-cursed ground, intimidate and threaten them, and then openly declare that you're going to murder them all. Just a hunch.

There's this kind of telepathy in video games though, where you pick sides and the side that hasn't got the word yet still knows that you picked their side. I remember fighting my way through mages and wondering why they were fighting back. Shouldn't they know? I don't want to kill them, but you sort of have to when you walk into a room and everybody has red circles at their feet.

As for blood magic, you can't just do blood magic, can you? Someone has to teach it to you, the same as any other school. And I agree that there wouldn't be that many blood mages if not for all the lakes of blood under the city, but I think there wouldn't be so many blood mages if there weren't approximately four times as many mages at the end fight as there are citizens of Kirkwall. I mean, really. The end just feels very gamey with enemies coming out of nowhere.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

There was once a long, long argument on the ME2 boards that Paragon!Shep is a hypocrite because she just kills mercenaries all the time, but then tries to convince [Spoiler] that killing for revenge isn't a good idea.

And I said: "Hey, if I could just walk into a room with a bullhorn and say 'This is Commander Shepard. By now, you should have some idea what that means in terms of my ability to shoot you in the face. Anybody who throws aside their weapon and lies face down on the floor will not be shot in the face. Thank you for your time.' I would do that in pretty much every single room. Conventional games can't allow for that kind of thing (though it would be really hilarious if they did.) There's always got to be a few rooms of dudes to kill... and for some reason the people who like killing random dudes usually complain if you give the less killing-focused people a way to avoid it."

I would be perfectly fine siding with the Templars if there was an option to make them all wait outside and go inside myself, and shout "OK, I'm the champion, and I'm in charge here. This isn't actually an annulment, and I personally promise that any mage who surrenders will not be harmed, unless myself or the captain of the city guards finds evidence of blood magic." But of course we don't have that option, and it sucks. Cullen, you and I could totally strip Meredith of her post right here, in this courtyard, before this business gets out of hand. But nooooooooooooooooo.

As for blood magic itself, there is no definitive canon explanation for how you become a blood mage. Anders at one point implies that you could just cut yourself and say "oooh, powerful!" In some versions of the world you can learn it out of a book. At another point Anders says you have to make some kind of a deal with a demon. I don't even remember what the heck Jowan did.

I've attempted to assemble all the datapoints into sort of a workable theory, and this is what I've arrived at: it's easy to do 'normal' blood magic, and any mage can pretty much decide to do it at any time. "Normal" blood magic is just spells you already know, with their power increased by blood. Some spells require some kind of a demon deal, I think those are the spells that mess with people's heads, or the spells that actively transform you. If you accept a demon's aid, you pretty much instantly know how to use blood magic: the demon just drops that knowledge into your head.

We know pretty much for sure that that's what Merrill did: Marethari certainly didn't teach her how to use blood magic. Merrill says as much: she decided she needed to do something beyond her power, so she just reached out into the fade for a demon and said "hey, let's make a deal."

Demons will often teach you to do blood magic for nothing, because doing blood magic weakens the veil, and that makes it easier for them to break through even if you don't let them. So, in a time of crisis, I can see demons saying "hey, here's some free life-saving magic, on me! Go get 'em, tiger!" It's basically someone vaguely suspicious handing you a loaded gun right as you're about to be stabbed. You know it's probably a bad idea to take a gun from a suspicious guy, but being stabbed is probably worse, and that's DEFINITELY gonna happen if you don't take that gun.

[sylvanaerie]

Conventional wisdom goes with the "Demons teach Blood Magic". However, there are contradictions all over the game. Anders asks Fenris if there are any magisters who don't use blood magic, and Fenris replies, yes, they're called slaves. To which Anders makes an observation that you must stare into a demon's (face? eyes? I forget) and accept its offer. And then something along the lines of 'you'd think they'd refuse just for aesthetic reasons if nothing else'.
In DAO Jowan learns blood magic via a bunch of books Irving removed from the library for 'being too dangerous to leave lying around'. So obviously, it can be book-taught. This is also how Connor learned, 'from Jowan's books' that the apostate kept from the boy, he will tell you. The only way to trigger it in the game so you can choose the option is to learn it from the Demon plaguing Connor, henceforth having it on subsequent playthroughs without book learning or Monty Hall demons.

I believe it's also taught from a book you can buy in Awakenings if you haven't opened it, but that has more to do with Game Mechanics than actual game lore.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 août 2011 - 06:39 .

[R2s Muse]

Bringin' it back to the Knight-Captain, Cullen also disapproves of blood magic, in all its forms.

[Avilia]

 He looks like he got a little too close to someone's ritual 


Blood  magic makes Cullen sad panda:

[Galagraphia]

@Avilia, aww, I really want to stop making my mages blood mages when Cullen looks at me like that!
And lol, I must say that your Nate gifs are so full of win!

[Monica21]

Avilia wrote...

Hugs not blood magic. Except that doesn't rhyme, does it?

[miraclemight]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And I said: "Hey, if I could just walk into a room with a bullhorn and say 'This is Commander Shepard. By now, you should have some idea what that means in terms of my ability to shoot you in the face. Anybody who throws aside their weapon and lies face down on the floor will not be shot in the face. Thank you for your time.' 

This actually reminds me of the random apostates that you have to kill Anders' quests. In Anders' quests! 

[Avilia]

@Gala ty


@MM I just finished a run siding with mages/keeping Anders alive (my first time for that one). The head/desk in Act 3 is astonishing.

Modifié par Avilia, 21 août 2011 - 09:31 .

[Monica21]

R2s Muse wrote...
pro-templar ending, after Meredith battle:

I just finished a pro-templar ending, and not only was the above part very nice, but it felt oddly more satisfying than the pro-mage ending. I'm not at all sure why that is. I feel some pondering coming on.

[Vaeya]

Oh dear. I seem to have missed about 9 pages of discussion. XD Hah!

@Monica21- That is one of my favorite moments in the game. XD It's so satisfying and meaningful!
But I agree, I feel the Templar ending has more juice to it than the mage ending... but that's my own opinion. owo

@Avilia- That picture is awesomeness. XD Hahahahaha I love it! Very creative! :3