1890 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

My personal belief is that, since DA2 was in its development when Witch Hunt was released, they added the Greenfell story there to, I guess, make his transition into DA2 believeable. DA2 Cullen acts like someone who still has bad memories but has gone through therapy.

One wonders where that was for Meredith...

[RagingCyclone]

Aeowyn...that would make sense. I heard banter about the circle in Kirkwall being oppressive and the book about Koslun.

Schratty...that's what I was thinking. Plus on hot days things sometimes...stick...not that I would know that personally...hey..what's that over there?

[rak72]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Aeowyn...that would make sense. I heard banter about the circle in Kirkwall being oppressive and the book about Koslun.

Schratty...that's what I was thinking. Plus on hot days things sometimes...stick...not that I would know that personally...hey..what's that over there?

But the lining is silky soft

I think they origionaly meant for Cullen to be kind of stalkery/creepy when they first wrote him for DAO, but were then surprised at how well received he was.  I think they were trying to reabilitate/retcon him a little in Witch hunt because they wanted to capitalize on his popularity in the future.  I remember one of the writers (J. Helper I think)  posting about how she was surprized that he was so popular & was meant to be kind of creepy.  This was a long time ago.

[Avilia]

I understand the 'creepy' thing but I've always thought he was just young and repressed.  Young people can fixate on someone and imagine themselves in relationships or how they might be married or otherwise attached to them.  Its usually quite harmless and in this case there's no indication that there was any intention on Cullen's part to actually do anything about it (that I saw anyway).

His converation in the cage when he thinks the mage warden isn't real is a little embarassing but again, not particularly creepy imho.

But still, the writers know their creations better than I.  That was just my take on it.

[rak72]

Yea, it never bothered me either. I thought it was cute when he ran away all embarrassed.

It's kind of cool seeing how much he has grown/hardened since that first encounter in the tower.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your status as noble and Champion of Kirkwall gives you zero authority to put anyone under your protection.

True, my siding with the mages is rather ad hoc. I don't care that much.

And you still have no authority, simple as that.

Cullen is an Andrastian and a loyal Chantry follower. The Chantry claims divine right over mages and uses the Templar order to ensure it. Your definitions of fairness and objectivity seem to stem from an extreme position rather than starting at the middle.

To me, that sounds like saying evolutionism and Creationism should be given equal scientific weight. Sometimes fairness isn't in the middle; sometimes reality supports bias.

Er, no, it doesn't. You can't make a comparison between verifiable science and a fake world of churches and magic. 

And what is the reality then, at least the reality in Dragon Age? Are mages more susceptible to possession than non-mages? Can mages control the physical world through dreams? Are mages able to raise demons? Are mages always able to control what happens to them in the Fade? Are mages more dangerous than non-mages simply because of who they are? 

I believe that the answer to all of those things is yes. I do not believe that the answer to protecting non-mages is the Templar Order as it currently exists. But, I also know that I can't extrapolate that to mean that a single Templar is neither fair nor objective simply because he is a Templar, and as a Templar, Cullen is refreshingly level-headed. So yes, he is fair and objective, to the point that he always sides with you against Meredith and always speaks against the RoA. 

I apologize for the clumsiness; I was referring to moral terms.

Your own morality is not what you responded to. You responded to how the chain of command works. Your own morality does not matter.

[Monica21]

rak72 wrote...
I think they origionaly meant for Cullen to be kind of stalkery/creepy when they first wrote him for DAO, but were then surprised at how well received he was.  I think they were trying to reabilitate/retcon him a little in Witch hunt because they wanted to capitalize on his popularity in the future.  I remember one of the writers (J. Helper I think)  posting about how she was surprized that he was so popular & was meant to be kind of creepy.  This was a long time ago.

I think Gaider even commented about Cullen and how he was intended to be creepy. I wish I could find the quote now. I admit that I found him a bit creepy too, but I've wanted to replay the mage origin for awhile to see if I get the same vibe.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The thing is, no matter what, the Chantry's into some bad juju. I won't say slavery, because I agree that this isn't that, not exactly, but definitely internment. I also think it qualifies as apartheid, but for neatness sake I usually call the mages' situation forced internment and the elves' situation apartheid... it's simpler that way, and they're both pretty clear examples of those particular societal wrongs.

In my mind, that makes the Chantry an evil empire. I mean, once you have a few centuries of forced internment and apartheid as part of your fundamental policy, you pretty much have stepped into that role. Especially when you're part of an international military organization that interferes with the independence of sovereign governments.

Now, my first game perspective was neither mage 'nor Templar; it was elven... Dalish. So I've always thought the whole "the only way to keep everyone safe is to lock away the mages," idea had absolutely no foundation in reality. My people had been living freely with their mage brothers and sisters for centuries with no serious problems beyond the occasional templar attack.

It's funny how the destruction of the Dales and the resulting apartheid that remains today are what make me put the Chantry in the "really bad" category rather than the "probably just misguided" category. When you engage in warfare with the aim of completely destroying another country and also eradicating their culture and religion, forcing them into ghettos, I'm going to have a hard time putting you in any column other than "probably a bad organization." Especially when you also use propaganda and revisionist history to engender hatred of a given race (the classification of the canticle of Shartan as heretical).

I'm not saying that everyone in the Chantry is a bad person... most of the people I know and like in Thedas are Andrastean. But I think that the more governmental and military leaders of the organization are pretty brutal and corrupt, more interested in power than the actual tenets of Andraste. So for me, any templar or chantry sister or brother is the functional equivalent of someone being on the "wrong side" of a war due to propaganda or nationalism... it's not really their fault, but if more people would think critically about the fundamental practices of the governmental organization they're fighting for, we'd probably have a lot fewer cases of "I was just following orders."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 23 août 2011 - 12:42 .

[Schratty]

rak72 wrote...

Yea, it never bothered me either. I thought it was cute when he ran away all embarrassed.

It's kind of cool seeing how much he has grown/hardened since that first encounter in the tower.

This.

I never viewed him as creepy. I viewed him as a young, sheltered guy who had a huge crush on someone the Chantry told him he shouldn't have.

[Yankee23]

Schratty wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Yea, it never bothered me either. I thought it was cute when he ran away all embarrassed.

It's kind of cool seeing how much he has grown/hardened since that first encounter in the tower.

This.

I never viewed him as creepy. I viewed him as a young, sheltered guy who had a huge crush on someone the Chantry told him he shouldn't have.

My first game was a mage, Cullen running away was the first of many favorite things I found in Origins. I agree with all of the above, but I did get a litle bit of the creepy vibe from him. I thought it was his conflict over his feelings and the chantry that made him a bit...obsessive. I thought the Gaider quote mentioned above fit him perfecly. Not sure what it says about me that I still liked him...

But I just love what they did to him in DA2. He has grown, healed and found a balance between what he was told told his duty was and how he felt about mages.

Modifié par Yankee23, 23 août 2011 - 01:11 .

[R2s Muse]

Monica21 wrote...

rak72 wrote...
I think they origionaly meant for Cullen to be kind of stalkery/creepy when they first wrote him for DAO, but were then surprised at how well received he was.  I think they were trying to reabilitate/retcon him a little in Witch hunt because they wanted to capitalize on his popularity in the future.  I remember one of the writers (J. Helper I think)  posting about how she was surprized that he was so popular & was meant to be kind of creepy.  This was a long time ago.

I think Gaider even commented about Cullen and how he was intended to be creepy. I wish I could find the quote now. I admit that I found him a bit creepy too, but I've wanted to replay the mage origin for awhile to see if I get the same vibe.

OK, I couldn't find a link to the original post, but it was quoted in the forum earlier:

David Gaider wrote...

If I wrote a Cullen "romance" it'd have to be creepy as hell.


Cullen: I just want you to know... I love you.
PC: I love you, too.
Cullen: No, no... I REALLY love you!
PC: Er... and I love you, too.
Cullen:
You don't understand! I think about you all the time, every waking
moment! I look at you and I... I want to touch your skin! I want to
brush your hair!
PC: I don't...
Cullen: Ever since I saw you in the mage tower I wanted to protect you. Keep you somewhere safe. FOREVER.
PC: ...
PC: ...awkward.

EDIT: D'oh! Found it!  http://social.biowar...468638/3#469012

Modifié par R2s Muse, 23 août 2011 - 02:05 .

[rak72]

Lol, he can brush my hair whenever he wants, in fact, I might even start creeping HIM out.

PC - when you are done brushing my hair, I want to twirl my fingers in every curl on your head.

[Monica21]

rak72 wrote...

Lol, he can brush my hair whenever he wants, in fact, I might even start creeping HIM out.

PC - when you are done brushing my hair, I want to twirl my fingers in every curl on your head.

+100 

[erilben]

There's this too. Ms. Chee telling how a romance with Cullen and female Warden mage would be like.

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Jules8445 wrote...
Angst and pain = = good romance.

Well, from what she said, only if your idea of a good romance involves being chained in a basement, beaten, (eventually) strangled, and buried in a shallow grave.

Yes, there's nothing romantic about the scenario in my mind. I imagine it would be very quick, very violent, and only undertaken as a way to get her out of his system.

http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/97/index/583364/3#593533

[R2s Muse]

OMG, thanks for that link erilben.  Jeesh, and there's the earlier quote too, about his popularity being a surprise:

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Sheryl Chee wrote...
I know right! I'm totally shocked by this too. If I'd known how popular he'd be, I would've written in some kind of closure for him and the femMagePC.

What do you think of him??  Is he tragic oppressed lad or creepy stalker nutcase? 

I'd say he starts out tragically oppressed with some tendencies towards creepy stalker (I think you'd have to be, to be a templar). He ends up, I believe, completely broken mentally and emotionally and hates both himself and the femMagePC. I think nothing, not even love, can redeem him. He's too far gone. Of course, that's not canon, it's just my take on it, and I revel in the angst and the pain.

Egad, guess a lotta changes in the writers' room bet this and DA2. *gulp* Pobrecito.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 23 août 2011 - 02:12 .

[Monica21]

 Wow, memories of posts from Origins devs. The creepiness abounds. Clearly he did get sane and far more rational, and I think part of it had to do with seeing the difference between Greagoir, who he probably saw as too lenient after the events of the Ferelden tower, and seeing the abuses of power from the actual crazy of Meredith. I think he does show progression through the game too, and really (oddly, even) he seems to be the character who's developed the best and has the most accurate character growth.

But those early quotes really have an, "it rubs the lotion on its skin...." vibe. 

[RagingCyclone]

I'm glad I never tried that with him. My wardens (mostly male) saw him in the tower as a tortured man on the brink of collapse. By the time I played a fem mage warden I used a mod with him...so I guess I missed out on the creepy vibe thing they were going for.

[Avilia]

/Alistair "creepy" /Alistair

Still, good to know what they were going for.

I really didn't feel that at all and now I'm pondering why. For me it may have something to do with the power balance. Technically Cullen should have the upper hand but, running away when the object of your affections, however twisted, expresses interest, doesn't really make me think 'scary'.

If I'd somehow felt my character was in his power it might be different. Not in an overdone, melodramatic, mustache twirling way (yes I'm looking at you Alrik) but just that he was a bit less 'stammery, my hands and feet are too big and there's a girl talking to me' and more 'hello breakfast'. If you get what I mean?

Well, if DA2 Cullen is a retcon all I can say is, finally a retcon of which I can approve ;-)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I feel like a lot of writers miss the key component of creepy. Yes, obsession and infatuation can contribute to creepiness and can be creepy in their own right, but if some cute guy who I'd already expressed interest in haltingly told me that he thought about me every moment of the day, I'd probably be flattered. Those kinds of creepy are heavily contextual, and if you already are interested in a person, they can just seem like an interesting component of a passionate relationship.

What brews the deep creep is a feeling of ownership or entitlement, which Cullen doesn't have. I've known some super creepy guys, and one of the key linking factors is that "oh, you'll come around one day" mentality they have towards those they're creeping on.

The fact that Cullen doesn't aggressively pursue the relationship removes him from the potential of deepest creepiness. If some templar behaved like Cullen and then cornered the mage PC and tried to kiss them, I would get significantly more creep bells (though some girls even like that kind of thing... /cough). But high levels of self-restraint and real vulnerability aren't common among creepy guys, and Cullen has both of them.

A lot of times when a writer says "not even love can save him" I roll my eyes, because love alone probably saves very few people. Ok, if love can't save him, how about love and some fairly adept psychotherapy? What about love and some mood medication? What about love and removing them from a psychologically damaging environment. Hell, screw the love, what about just ALL THE OTHER THINGS? It's not like love is some great anti-jerk panacea, though it can be used as leverage to get someone actual help, I think.

At this point, the thing that makes me so interested in Cullen is that he seems fundamentally incapable of prioritizing his own happiness over what he sees as the greater good. Even if his perception of duty and the greater good are somewhat skewed, there's a nobility there that makes me want to reach out to him.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 23 août 2011 - 03:35 .

[R2s Muse]

Another aspect of the creepy is the fact that Sheryl Chee seems to think that just being a templar means you have to have creepy stalker tendencies. I guess I can see what she's saying in a very, very broad sense, that if your job is to stand around and watch other people's lives all day... that's kinda creepy and stalkerish. But, that ignores the "great good" aspect of being a templar, and policing the mages. Presumably, most of the templars aren't standing around all day watching and collecting weird little lockets of hair to go back and brush before their creepy mage shrines.

[Galagraphia]

Wow, I missed that thread and I'm glad I didn't read what Cheryl Chee wrote before I started my "let's save Cullen's sanity" project.

[ReiSilver]

Weirdly I didn't find Cullen creepy until he started his paranoid ramblings, insisting all mages needed to be killed, then again in DA2 when he gets anti-mage with "They're not people like you and me" and talking about having a divine right over mages. Before that he just seemed shy and awkward but infatuated with Surana/Amell.
After DA2 I just can't get over the high numbers of tranquil and the torture implements/equipment in the Gallows, it's like he's been revisiting what was done to him on mages; defiling their minds and torturing them, even if it was Meredith's idea he was complicit in it. Cullen saying he wanted to arrest Hawke instead of killing him/her doesn't fill me with much confidence when my Hawke is a mage and knowing Cullen is ok with there being six Iron Maidens in an open courtyard area of the gallows...

[Galagraphia]

 Wow, look what else I found there:

Sheryl Chee wrote...

I'm really sorry some people were insulted by what I said. I didn't mean to be condescending at all. 

Also, when I wrote Cullen, I hadn't heard of Twilight, so any similarities to Edward Cullen are coincidental. I did imagine him to be a young, fairly normal kid torn between his hormones and his duty. Like a more serious Alistair. Later on we decided we needed a templar survivor in the post-Uldred tower, and since people seem to enjoy it when they see people from their past, I decided to make it Cullen. In the beginning, he is sympathetic to the mages, but he comes away very changed by the things Uldred and the demons do to him.

As for the creepy stalker tendencies--er... I think that may have been started by David Gaider's little Cullen Romance snippet. I never imagined him as a creepy stalker. 

Malaia wrote...
So intimating that we're silly girls that latch onto anything that smiles at us is a little harsh, imo.

Well, I don't get the Thane-obsession, or the Teagan obsession, and it has become clear to me that people will want to have romances with/write fanfic about pretty much any character. There is nothing wrong with this. I did not mean to be insulting. God knows I've had my "OMG DRACOOOOOOO!! *heart heart heart drool*" moments. I was expressing regret that I did not realize this at the time of the Broken Circle's writing, or I would have put in a bit more dialog for Cullen and closure for the female mage. 

[Galagraphia]

 Aww, that thread brought the memories back. My first mage was a Surana girl, and when she talked to Cullen, I thought: "Aww, how cute, this templar likes me! Oooh, look, there's a flirt option. But I shouldn't click on it, it will probably ruin my romance with that other guy with shield, the party member." So we just talked, and then I was running and clicking on other girls in the tower, and they were: "I heard Cullen is in love with you!:O" And I thought: "Awkward, I thought it was supposed to be a secret. I hope this Cullen doesn't tell stories about me! Because that's how the problems usually begin".

And funny how a few weeks later I was cursing Uldred for breaking such a nice guy  I thought that pre-Uldred Cullen could have been the best knight-commander in history of the Circles. And he broke my Amell's heart too:



And then I decided that I must fix him somehow, at least in a fanfic.
Ah, I'm glad Sheryl Chee didn't finish the "romance" then and Jennifer Hepler carried it to DAII. It means that life is not over for my Amell 

And a bonus. I thought it was funny then, now I think it's creepy. After Awakening I made a mage who looked like Anders, and they had that talk about abominations with Cullen:


And my m!Amell thought: "Haha, Cullen, you are so naive! Let's play a joke!" And he told Cullen that he should keep his eyes open, because abominations could be everywhere! Secretly! And you won't see them until it's too late!
Later that joke felt so cruel... And creepy. Because a mage who looks like Anders tells all that to Cullen, and then Anders becomes a "secret" abomination. 

[Avilia]

Nice find Gala - now I don't feel like I missed something obvious by not finding Cullen creepy!

That's interesting with a male mage - I've never played a male in DA so I didn't realise/think about the different conversation with Cullen.