129 réponses à ce sujet

[RailTracer]

That security guard and volus on the Citadel that were bothering that quarian. Most of the guys the OP mentions get their just reward on your end and you are able to influence Zaieed and Miranda and help their characters develope so I don't have as much a problem with them. Those two on the other hand you just get to leave with their tails between their legs, you don't have the option of administering some punishment to them. I'd have liked the option to call the guard's arrest bluff, escalate it into a fight and beat him and the volus silly, and when his buddies show up claim he was interfering in Spectre business.

[Dean_the_Young]

leonia42 wrote...

Dude, the krogan were at war with everybody (hence the krogan rebellions) that's why the genophage was made. Mordin was responsible for modifying the genophage so that it could help control their population so that the krogan wouldn't constantly go to war (and by doing so, go  extinct and taking the rest of galactic civilisation down with them). If you talk to Mordin enough it makes sense and he even shows a bit of regret that such drastic measures needed to be taken but says leaving the genophage unmodified was even worse (he doesn't want to sterilise the krogan, he wants them to have a controlled, healthy population so that they can grow at a normal rate).

The Krogan Rebellions were over a thousand years ago. The Genophage was justified as a weapon of last resort against those who were waging war at that time. There is no threat of the now.

Mordin was not punishing Krogan innocent of the crimes of their ancestors for anything they had done in the present. He was not stopping the Krogan from anything they intended to do. Mordin's genophage project was not about stopping conspiracy, it was about letting Council governments sleep easier with involuntary genetic rewrites, content in the knowledge that the Krogan are simply killing themselves off faster than they reproduce, but if the Krogan changed they wouldn't go extinct.

There are alternative solutions, including applying the Genophage V2 later if it did become a problem. There was no time limit, or pressing need to immediately push the Krogan back on a path to extinction.

[gosimmons]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Gosimmons, that was nearly a thousand years before the game started.

We aren't talking the sins of this generation. We aren't even talking about the sins of the fathers: we're talking about the sins of the grandfathers, and great grandfathers, and beyond.

The politics of a thousand years ago in a war virtually no one alive was a part of is NOT legal grounds for indiscriminate biological warfare against people entirely uninvolved, simply on the fear they might rise again. Just imagine what the world would be like if we applied that standard ourselves.

Alright, I understand your point a bit better. Although I think the genophage may have been more necessary at one time, it's less defendable  to still be developing it at this point. It's kinda like how I've argued that quarians still shouldn't be denied a planet for what their ancestors did. Guess the Council is one for grudges. >> 

But I still find Mordin defendable. He does feel regret about what's happened even if he thought it had to be done. Following orders believing it was the best for everyone in the long run, in the end he'll probably be the one to help cure the genophage.

[Dean_the_Young]

The genophage is certainly more necessary when it was first used. And certainly more justifiable.

What's far less is the needless re-application of it, even though it's clear that doing so is keeping the Krogan on a path to extinction. Mordin's 'it will preserve them' caveat is negated by the fact that it ISN'T preserving the Krogan: the birth rate success is at pre-industrial levels, but the death rate is much higher.

Mordin can feel guilty all he wants, he still put a species back on the path to extinction because some people feared a partial upswing in births might lead to something bad, even though the re-application could have waited until whenever.

[gosimmons]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The genophage is certainly more necessary when it was first used. And certainly more justifiable.

What's far less is the needless re-application of it, even though it's clear that doing so is keeping the Krogan on a path to extinction. Mordin's 'it will preserve them' caveat is negated by the fact that it ISN'T preserving the Krogan: the birth rate success is at pre-industrial levels, but the death rate is much higher.

Mordin can feel guilty all he wants, he still put a species back on the path to extinction because some people feared a partial upswing in births might lead to something bad, even though the re-application could have waited until whenever.

But the fact that he feels guilty should be taken note of. Hardly any of the crew can say their hands are completely clean. Samara would blindly follow a code to kill innocents that are in her way,Thane justified assassinations by saying he was simply a tool with no real control, and Jack goes without saying.
But seeing the results of what the genophage has caused can lead to big changes next game. Even if he did wrong shouldn't the fact he could be willing to help reverse what happened be taken into account?
Besides, you can't say the Krogan are completely unresponsible for the state of things. Like Wrex said,
"You ask a krogan if he'd rather research a cure for the genophage or fight for credits, and he'll choose fighting, every time. It's just who we are Shepard. I can't change that. No one can."

Modifié par gosimmons, 20 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[Akizora]

The Krogan are a danger to the galaxy, they have a high agression and hostility with a major birthrate. They could go from 1 million to 10 billion in 20 years and with their desire for conflict, fighting, destruction and war - they would wage war on the galaxy. The only way to stop them was either complete genocide or the genophage, morally ambigious but I would likely have done the same if I were in their position.

But the Salarians were at fault for unleashing the Krogan unto the galaxy in the first place, Mordin even admits that but its nothing he can change...Afterall, Salarian years are like dog years - they don't live much past 40.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

I would say possibly Morinth, but we don't really know enough about her to judge. Like a previous person said, does she enjoy the killing part or does she just accept it to get her rush? I couldn't hate Gavin Archer, as he was trying to do something for the greater good and did feel horrible at the end. He did deserve to get punched though.

I would say Elnora the mercenary is definitely near rock bottom, as she happily and sadistically killed the Volus merchant and then ran like a coward and lied to Shepard.

[Harmless Crunch]

Udina-Apart from being the biggest d*ck the galaxy has ever seen he loves to backstab the people helping him ........

[Tennessee88]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Inspired by the most reprehensible character topic for Dragon Age, I wanted to know who everyone thought were the more reprehensible characters in Mass Effect 2. This can include anybody in the game. Here is what I think in no particular order.

Gavin Archer- You have to be a sick individual to do something like this to your own brother. I was so mad I couldn't kill him.

Morinth- Genetic condition or not enjoying to murder of innocent victims is not cool. She really has no redeeming qualities

Zaeed Massani- Blowing up innocent people for your own selfish revenge is really monsterous. I could perfectly understand why any Shepard could leave him to die on his loyalty mission after recusing the workers.

Ronald Taylor- I let him rot in the place that he made.

Tela Vasir- She is proof of why the spectres are no better than Cerberus. She blow up four stories worth of innocent people just to kill ONE person. She really gets no sympathy for me.

Miranda Lawson- The fact the only reason she didn't put a control chip in Shepard's brain was due to a lack of permission puts her into this dog house too. If she would have gone through with it, it would have been a Moral Event Horizon for her.

Gavin, operating under his perceptions was trying to accomplish something that might save millions of lives.

And Miranda's reasoning was understandable.

When you are facing the choice of one life (or thousands for that matter) vs millions or trillions the lines of black and white cannot exist.

[Zexion21]

Khalisah al-Jilani... XDD.

I tried to look good in ME1.
Renegade option in ME2, lol.

[omgodzilla]

TelexFerra wrote...

Tali - Existing

Fixed

[Markinator_123]

omgodzilla wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Tali - Existing

Fixed

Thumbs up!

[apotheosic]

Nassana Dantius is my single most hated character in ME.She's like corruption personified.

[Interactive Civilian]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

the birth rate success is at pre-industrial levels, but the death rate is much higher.

It seems to me that you are misunderstanding what Mordin was talking about when he brought up preindustrial levels. Essentially the idea is that right now, with the genophage/modded-genophage, Krogan population growth rates match those of pre-industrial levels. Pre-industrial Krogan reproduced prodigiously, but also died prodigiously in their nearly constant warfare, so the population didn't grow much. However, now that the Krogan have been "uplifted" and introduced to technology and means of survival they didn't have before, their death rate is much much lower. However, at the time of the Krogan Rebellions and before the introduction of the Genophage, the birthrate remained it's usual high level, so they (the Council) were facing a population explosion of a rather violent war-mongering species.

The Genopage reduces the Krogan birth-rate so that the population growth rate matches pre-industrial levels; that is, it brings a birth rate more inline with the modern death rate so that the Krogan population doesn't explode and threaten the galaxy like it did in the Rebellions.

The genophage was modified because Krogan birth rates were increasing as they adapted, but their death rates are still much lower than they ever were before industry and uplifting. Everything Mordin was doing was to maintain the growth rate.

Now, whether or not that is still wrong is up to you, but don't mis-represent what Mordin's intentions and actions were all about.

[Sajuro]

David Archer: Overlord

TIM: Being the head of Cerberus and trying to wash his hands of every project that goes wrong.

Shadow Broker: Manipulative a##hole, but he did have a good boss fight

Nassana Dantius: she is crazy and corruption all blended up.

Racist Volus on Citadel.

[Quole]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Samara - she blindly follows a code that compels her to kill innocents if anything gets in her way (taken into custody at Illium), but when she witnesses a Spectre do so (which he has the legal right to) then she will hunt him down and sidetrack whatever mission he was on (which in turn might be hurting a lot of people). She will start a riot on Tuchanka over something as petty as varren fights. She wants to kill her daughter for killing people when she admitted she herself was very much the same way in her youth: saying she killed many people as a merc and danced the night away, not caring to settled down until her matron stage.

Sorry, I just feel like everything is very wrong here. I don't even have much reason to trust the crew with Samara either, since she's so overzealous about wronging evil - and more than half the team already is.

I'm going back for another run through my main career. The only reason I'm going to let Samara live is because I have no good reason to stab my own teammate in the back. But otherwise, I'd rather have Morinth much more.

Yeah, Samara is one of the only squadmates I hate because of how  stupid her code is.

[SavesTheDay]

Quole wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Samara - she blindly follows a code that compels her to kill innocents if anything gets in her way (taken into custody at Illium), but when she witnesses a Spectre do so (which he has the legal right to) then she will hunt him down and sidetrack whatever mission he was on (which in turn might be hurting a lot of people). She will start a riot on Tuchanka over something as petty as varren fights. She wants to kill her daughter for killing people when she admitted she herself was very much the same way in her youth: saying she killed many people as a merc and danced the night away, not caring to settled down until her matron stage.

Sorry, I just feel like everything is very wrong here. I don't even have much reason to trust the crew with Samara either, since she's so overzealous about wronging evil - and more than half the team already is.

I'm going back for another run through my main career. The only reason I'm going to let Samara live is because I have no good reason to stab my own teammate in the back. But otherwise, I'd rather have Morinth much more.

Yeah, Samara is one of the only squadmates I hate because of how  stupid her code is.

The more I think about the Justicar code, the more I agree with this statement.

The Codex on Justicars

Justicars tend to be independent, requiring little help but also
scorning it since such advanced skill and experience usually travels
with a powerful ego. The conflicts presented by such arrogance prompted
the Justicar Order to develop the Oaths of Subsumation. The oaths pledge
protection of the innocent, the punishment of the guilty, and defence
of common law and the norms of asari society.

Except when the code requires they kill cops?

Also from the wiki, not a codex entry

Samara herself admits that, due to the harsh nature of the Code,
curiosity is a liability for a justicar: if she is required to kill a
murderer, she does not wish to know anything that could potentially
redeem him in her eyes.

When a Justicar captures a criminal do they take them to jail or do they just kill that person? If she doesn't want to know anything that could potentially redeem that person, does she take into consideration that the murder could've happened in self defense? If it's somehow not obvious that it was self defense or the person was unwilling to talk about it, I mean.

I don't think I spoke to Samara beyond anything she had to say about her loyalty mission and ship upgrades, so maybe she does talk about the Justicars to some extent and I just missed it?

Modifié par SavesTheDay, 21 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Samara - she blindly follows a code that compels her to kill innocents if anything gets in her way (taken into custody at Illium), but when she witnesses a Spectre do so (which he has the legal right to)

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

...

I say-ed, WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE.

Samara wasn't taken into custody because she might harm innocents; she was taken into custody because enforcing the Justicar's code on a multiracial world where almost anyone is doing something a Justicar might take offense to--where nearly no one is "innocent"--might spark some kind of inter-racial incident, and not the fun kind of incident, either. Samara doesn't kill innocents. Her code is quite clear on that point. She was taken in to prevent her ruffling the feathers of a community that doesn't respect the Justicars on the same level as the mainline asari community does.

In short, she was taken into custody to preserve the political peace on Illium.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 21 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

SavesTheDay wrote...

Except when the code requires they kill cops?

Cops who detain them, apparently. Cops who attempt to keep them from doing their jobs. Let's not word it so that it sounds crueler than it actually is, yes?

Samara herself admits that, due to the harsh nature of the Code,
curiosity is a liability for a justicar: if she is required to kill a
murderer, she does not wish to know anything that could potentially
redeem him in her eyes.

When a Justicar captures a criminal do they take them to jail or do they just kill that person? If she doesn't want to know anything that could potentially redeem that person, does she take into consideration that the murder could've happened in self defense? If it's somehow not obvious that it was self defense or the person was unwilling to talk about it, I mean.

I don't think I spoke to Samara beyond anything she had to say about her loyalty mission and ship upgrades, so maybe she does talk about the Justicars to some extent and I just missed it?

"Redeems" is the wrong word. Being a loving father doesn't "redeem" a murderer, it just means there's another aspect to their life other than being a murderer. When you're supposed to execute someone for a heinous crime, it's psychologically easier to cope with the act if you only know the person on the merits of the crime. It's a cold way to think--it "dehumanizes" the criminal--but it's not about being cruel, it's about not having to guilt-trip over it after the fact. A murderer is still a murderer, loving father or not. So best not to dwell on that.

It's sound enough logic; the only reason I disagree with it is because I disagree with the Justicar Code itself, but if I were, say, the man in charge of executing death-row prisoners, for example, I would probably think along the same lines.

[Tennessee88]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Inspired by the most reprehensible character topic for Dragon Age, I wanted to know who everyone thought were the more reprehensible characters in Mass Effect 2. This can include anybody in the game. Here is what I think in no particular order.

Gavin Archer- You have to be a sick individual to do something like this to your own brother. I was so mad I couldn't kill him.

Morinth- Genetic condition or not enjoying to murder of innocent victims is not cool. She really has no redeeming qualities

Zaeed Massani- Blowing up innocent people for your own selfish revenge is really monsterous. I could perfectly understand why any Shepard could leave him to die on his loyalty mission after recusing the workers.

Ronald Taylor- I let him rot in the place that he made.

Tela Vasir- She is proof of why the spectres are no better than Cerberus. She blow up four stories worth of innocent people just to kill ONE person. She really gets no sympathy for me.

Miranda Lawson- The fact the only reason she didn't put a control chip in Shepard's brain was due to a lack of permission puts her into this dog house too. If she would have gone through with it, it would have been a Moral Event Horizon for her.

Gavin's fate as a villian will only be decided by the results of Overlord. If his actions save millions of lives...

Zaeed is a veteran merc who has likely seen every ugly facet of war there is. Regardless of his motivations, his actions brought down a person who would have been responsible for far more deaths than those lost at the plant. Not to mention that clown hired a bunch of GODDUMNDED terrorist.

Whot cares about the Taylors...

Miranda is the one that really irks me on this list. How could you not understand her motivations in this. She knew about the Collectors and the Reapers. She knew that Cerberus is the only organization fighting that threat at the time. With those perceptions in mind, why is it unreasonable for her to consider any means necessary to complete her goals. Also I find it interesting that you would put Lawson and not tim.



The great thing about Mass Effect is that there are very few black and white characters who play large roles in the game. In fact I am willing to bet there are under a dozen truly evil characters in the game... if that. The rest require user opinion which precludes the usefullness of deciding which characters are "reprehensible."

I consider the non-human council, Batarians, Turnians, and Admiral Anderson reprehensible (after Retribution). Its all a matter of opinion.

[Bluko]

Rana Thanoptis

Serisouly this Asari is always involved in some sort of unethical experiments. First she was helping Saren study indoctrination on living beings like the Salarians. They were even keeping Husks around as lab rats. I figured in ME1 well maybe Saren just forced her to work there.

But then in ME2 guess what? She's helping the Blue Suns clone Krogans, with apparently no concern again for the loss of life being it the dead Krogan rejects or the mercs getting killed in the combat training. Seriously don't think she has any kind of conscience. Wish I had killed her in ME1. She's one of those seemingly innocent characters, that's actually pretty despicable.

Probably one of the few Renegade decisions I regret not making even as Paragon.

Modifié par Bluko, 21 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[LordAnguis]

In regards to ME2 only, there's one character that hasn't been pointed out.

Admiral Xen from the Quarian Migrant Fleet. And, despite his death, Tali's father and his best friend, Han'Garrel. Those three all had reprehensible plans, albeit based on the beliefs of their people. Han'Garrel and Rael'Zorah had one thing going for them, though: they both tried to help Tali, though that backfired.
Xen, on the other hand, wishes to re-enslave the Geth. Sorry, but that makes me see her as a despot, and there's nothing anyone can say to stop me thinking that.

Another character is Harkin: using his former C-Sec status and contacts to help criminals of all caliber disappear.

Hmm.... The C-Sec Officer and Volus you can choose to defend the Quarian from. Take Tali with you if you want some itneresting dialogue.

In regards to the non-human Council members.... on the one hand, I see the Turian Councilor as someone to loath no matter your playthrough type (Renegade/Paragon/etc.), but on the other hand the other Councilors have points. But in the end, the Council are a bunch of politicians. Shepard's a soldier and a 'damn hero', according to Anderson. Therefore, I only hate them as far as they stop me from doing my job in the games. But watch this: One of the ME endings is us being declared a Rogue Spectre.

Batarians, as far as I'm concerned, are reprehensible, but nothing of note. Their crimes pre-date the entrance of humanity to the galaxy. Turians, on the other hand, are continually shown as having a tendency to overstep the bounds of morality despite their codes of honor. The main point of evidence for that is First Contact War. I've already gone into this on another thread, so to summarize: a race living by a code of honor and still having an actual brain capacity would realize newcomers (since they wouldn't recognize ship profiles) would have no knowledge of Council edicts. As such, humanity wouldn't know not to open the relays. The proper procedure would've been to open communications. Instead, the Turians fired on the scientists. They're war criminals in that state, as are they and the Salarians in regards to the Genophage.
Also, one point in regards to Mordin: his genophage was much more recent; remember, Salarians only live forty years. The Krogans had long since given up hope of becoming an empire, except for extremists like Weyrloc and Blood Pack. With Wrex's efforts, or if you killed him his cousin's efforts to unite the clans under Urdnot, this is no longer a problem. Something tells me in ME3 one of the things we'll need to do is help Wrex out with the other extremists.

[Ieldra]

Markinator_123 wrote...
Gavin Archer- You have to be a sick individual to do something like this to your own brother. I was so mad I couldn't kill him.

See it like this: win a war (that is the state of things if you don't know about Legion's background info) by sacrificing one life (David's) compared to winning it by sacrificing many. Perfect utilitarian reasoning. It *feels* sick to us because it's so personal and because family is special for us, but similar things - though less personal - have happened in the real world and nobody makes a fuss. The way that scene is presented doesn't help btw - that seems more deliberately cruel than anything else.

Miranda Lawson- The fact the only reason she didn't put a control chip in Shepard's brain was due to a lack of permission puts her into this dog house too. If she would have gone through with it, it would have been a Moral Event Horizon for her.

It would have been if it was implanted and used, yes. Even so, people talk too much about morals and too little about expediency. They're bringing a possible enemy back to life and augmenting him to super soldier potential. What if Shepard wakes up, notices it's all Cerberus here and decides to destroy everything. A control chip as a safety measure is completely understandable.

BTW...didn't I hear you speak differently about all this at some time?

[Labrev]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Samara - she blindly follows a code that compels her to kill innocents if anything gets in her way (taken into custody at Illium), but when she witnesses a Spectre do so (which he has the legal right to)

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

...

I say-ed, WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE.

Samara wasn't taken into custody because she might harm innocents; she was taken into custody because enforcing the Justicar's code on a multiracial world where almost anyone is doing something a Justicar might take offense to--where nearly no one is "innocent"--might spark some kind of inter-racial incident, and not the fun kind of incident, either. Samara doesn't kill innocents. Her code is quite clear on that point. She was taken in to prevent her ruffling the feathers of a community that doesn't respect the Justicars on the same level as the mainline asari community does.

In short, she was taken into custody to preserve the political peace on Illium.

LOL. Failure to communicate alright.

I was just citing her custody on Illium as an example of when her code puts her in position to kill innocents.

[Labrev]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...
Gavin Archer- You have to be a sick individual to do something like this to your own brother. I was so mad I couldn't kill him.

See it like this: win a war (that is the state of things if you don't know about Legion's background info) by sacrificing one life (David's) compared to winning it by sacrificing many. Perfect utilitarian reasoning. It *feels* sick to us because it's so personal and because family is special for us, but similar things - though less personal - have happened in the real world and nobody makes a fuss. The way that scene is presented doesn't help btw - that seems more deliberately cruel than anything else.

ugh... Do. Not. Want.

The "ends justifying the means" sounds good in theory, but what's the point of saving more people if you're losing your humanity in the process? When you accept using people as things and doing things to them that you wouldn't want done to yourself, what are you fighting for? A society that rapes people in the name of "safety?" What are you saving more people for, for them too to be used as lab rats like David?

Bottom line: it's easy for you to say, if you're not David.