129 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Definitely Conrad Verner. I mean, that guy mooches off his wife for a ticket off the citadel, goes around trying to extort (and failing) legitimate businesses, and getting in people's way.

By far he is the most morally reprehensible of all of them.

I don't really see how you can say Zaeed, Morinth, TIM, and the others are morally reprehensible. Based on the Philosophical principle of Egoism, Zaeed and Morinth are moral and based on the Act principle of Consequentialist utilitarianism TIM is moral.

I mean seriously, Zaeed was chasing Vido for years and in that time Vido created a vicious and brutal mercenary gang. Killing him would help the most people in the long run and is also moral under the Act principle.

Morinth is just acting in her own best interests. Sort of. Pay no attention to the Practical Imperative.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...
Gavin Archer- You have to be a sick individual to do something like this to your own brother. I was so mad I couldn't kill him.

See it like this: win a war (that is the state of things if you don't know about Legion's background info) by sacrificing one life (David's) compared to winning it by sacrificing many. Perfect utilitarian reasoning. It *feels* sick to us because it's so personal and because family is special for us, but similar things - though less personal - have happened in the real world and nobody makes a fuss. The way that scene is presented doesn't help btw - that seems more deliberately cruel than anything else.

ugh... Do. Not. Want.

The "ends justifying the means" sounds good in theory, but what's the point of saving more people if you're losing your humanity in the process? When you accept using people as things and doing things to them that you wouldn't want done to yourself, what are you fighting for? A society that rapes people in the name of "safety?" What are you saving more people for, for them too to be used as lab rats like David?

Bottom line: it's easy for you to say, if you're not David.

You spare their relatives unmeasurable pain at losing a loved one at the cost one a single life. If you were told there was a realistic possibly a war could be completely prevented and millions of lives saved but the cost is to sacrifice one, you would deny it?

Gavin went too far, even by his own admission he is acutely aware his overall goal led to inhuman experimentation to salvage time. That does not conclusion his intention nor Protect Overlord was an abomination. My response is precisely what renegade Shepard's is. I would dislike what had become of the project, perhaps even backhand Archer but I would understand his rationality and ultimately agree with the project.

[Dean_the_Young]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

the birth rate success is at pre-industrial levels, but the death rate is much higher.

It seems to me that you are misunderstanding what Mordin was talking about when he brought up preindustrial levels. Essentially the idea is that right now, with the genophage/modded-genophage, Krogan population growth rates match those of pre-industrial levels. Pre-industrial Krogan reproduced prodigiously, but also died prodigiously in their nearly constant warfare, so the population didn't grow much. However, now that the Krogan have been "uplifted" and introduced to technology and means of survival they didn't have before, their death rate is much much lower. However, at the time of the Krogan Rebellions and before the introduction of the Genophage, the birthrate remained it's usual high level, so they (the Council) were facing a population explosion of a rather violent war-mongering species.

This, however, is the rub: the Krogan death rate is not lower. Because of the technology that allows them to kill (and be killed) so much more easily, the Krogan are killing themselves faster than they reproduce. Pre-industrial birth rates may have been obtained, but post-industrial death rates were always higher.

If the Krogan reformed to a point at which their overall death rate (not just in birth, but during life as well) was the same as their pre-industrial rate, then Mordin's genophage would allow a stable, somewhat increasing population that wasn't much of a threat. But the Krogan are not reformed. They may not reform. And they are going extinct, as we get to hear multiple times from Wrex and other sources.

The genophage might allow for a stable population if the Krogan changed their nature, but until then it, and Mordin's fix, are continuing to drive the Krogan population down.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 21 mars 2011 - 12:34 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
This, however, is the rub: the Krogan death rate is not lower. Because of the technology that allows them to kill (and be killed) so much more easily, the Krogan are killing themselves faster than they reproduce. Pre-industrial birth rates may have been obtained, but post-industrial death rates were always higher.

Dean, you're totally wrong here.

The pre-industrial birth rate was the same as the post-industrial-pre-genophage, namely, unrestricted. The post- genophage birth rate is 1 in a 1000.

The pre-industrial death rate was high and counterbalanced the birth rate due to the number of "killed by preadator" deaths. These days the death rate, especially of Krogan females is significantly lower.

The Krogans aren't dying out. They have been maintaining stable population for more than a thousand years now. Which was the entire point of having the genophage deployed, instead glassing every Krogan planet.

However, due to the Krogan culture and general ignorance, the fact that they can't breed like rabbits any more seems like a genocide in progress to them. Plus, of course, the fact that the Council has them under its heel.

[Whatever42]

There are still billions of Krogan and Wrex backs off the dying off part and instead simply says that they aren't getting any stronger.

I think the trauma to the Krogan is cultural. Their whole culture was based around culling the weak. All the rituals undergone by young Krogan were there to kill off the weak. They kept their planet dangerous to kill off the stupid. Now, that culture is destroyed. They have to "coddle" young Krogan. They can't launch huge genocidal wars anymore. Everything it meant to be a Krogan is being stripped away.

And that's not nice but its necessary.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
This, however, is the rub: the Krogan death rate is not lower. Because of the technology that allows them to kill (and be killed) so much more easily, the Krogan are killing themselves faster than they reproduce. Pre-industrial birth rates may have been obtained, but post-industrial death rates were always higher.

Dean, you're totally wrong here.

The pre-industrial birth rate was the same as the post-industrial-pre-genophage, namely, unrestricted. The post- genophage birth rate is 1 in a 1000.

The pre-industrial death rate was high and counterbalanced the birth rate due to the number of "killed by preadator" deaths. These days the death rate, especially of Krogan females is significantly lower.

The Krogans aren't dying out. They have been maintaining stable population for more than a thousand years now. Which was the entire point of having the genophage deployed, instead glassing every Krogan planet.

However, due to the Krogan culture and general ignorance, the fact that they can't breed like rabbits any more seems like a genocide in progress to them. Plus, of course, the fact that the Council has them under its heel.

Zulu, one of the themes and sub-plots of Mass Effect 1 is that the Krogan have not been maintaining a stable population. That they aren't focusing on breeding, and even the most pragmatic (like Wrex) have become jaded and cynical. Hence why, when it's learned that Saren has created a cure, Wrex is so willing to turn on you: because it can save his people. What does it save them from? Gradual extinction.


You're arguing directly against Mass Effect 1, and on the basis of something in Mass Effect 2 that doesn't even contradict Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 21 mars 2011 - 01:58 .

[jamesp81]

Besides those mentioned by the OP

Terra Firma guy on Citadel: Can't remember his name, but he's even slimier than Udina, and that's saying something.  And just to make it totally clear, in ME1 I always have Anderson punch Udina rather than break into Citadel Control.  So much more satisfying to see Anderson punch that bastard.

Charn: Batarian lieutenant in ME1's Bring Down the Sky.  He's the guy who wants to abandon the plan to crash the asteroid into the planet because all he signed up for was "some profit and a quick slave grab."  Needless to say, I killed him after he dropped that little gem.

Balak: Batarian terrorist leader in Bring Down the Sky.

Dr. R. Heart: Salarian that you can help Garrus track down and kill in ME1.  As Mordin would say, "Unacceptable methods.  Unacceptable experiments!"

Vido Santiago: Though I always choose the paragon option and save the workers, I can see why some let Zaeed kill him.

The Looters from Mordin's recruitment mission: I usually intimidate them into stopping for the renegade points, but it's fun to kill them too.

Warden Kuril: A two-bit slave trader masquerading as a prison warden.

Jedore: Megalomaniacal psycho-****.

Nassana Dantius: Uncaring murdering paranoid ****.  Thane did the world a huge favor killing her.

Joram Talid: Runs around the citadel shaking down businesses like he's a mafia crime boss.  Eff him.  Would love to kill him, but my Shepard feels like letting him live will be better for humanity in the long run.

I'll add others if I think of them.

Modifié par jamesp81, 21 mars 2011 - 02:44 .

[jamesp81]

leonia42 wrote...

A2N2T wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

The Warden on Purgatory.. that guy took justice/revenge to a whole new level with that whole operation.

He did it for the money, not for justice or revenge.

Which makes it even worse, honestly. Tried to wrap it up as some sort of noble effort to rid the galaxy of terrible criminals but you can only sugar-coat it so much.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned our good friend TIM yet.

TIM is a badguy, IMO, but he does have SOME redeeming qualities.  I strongly disagree with his methods, but some of his goals are worthwhile.  I'm not for humanity subjugating everyone, but I am for humanity being strong enough to prevent the same from happening to us.

[Whatever42]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu, one of the themes and sub-plots of Mass Effect 1 is that the Krogan have not been maintaining a stable population. That they aren't focusing on breeding, and even the most pragmatic (like Wrex) have become jaded and cynical. Hence why, when it's learned that Saren has created a cure, Wrex is so willing to turn on you: because it can save his people. What does it save them from? Gradual extinction.

You're arguing directly against Mass Effect 1, and on the basis of something in Mass Effect 2 that doesn't even contradict Mass Effect 1.

When you ask Wrex whether the Krogan are dying out, he replies that the sure aren't getting any stronger. No, the Krogan can't fight constant wars and maintain their population. Neither can humans. It doesn't mean either of us face extinction.

[jamesp81]

Lee337 wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Jacob - Existing

Poor Jacob, if he was a real life person he'd be liked I bet.

If he was a real life person, he'd be in my inner circle of trust, kind of like Garrus.  He sees what needs to be done without drinking TIM's kool aid.

[jamesp81]

leonia42 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

gosimmons wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No one wants to bring up the doctor who sterilized an entire race who was at war with no one? Really?

But they were at war... Their rapid population growth led to the Krogan Rebellions. And Mordin went out of his way to find an answer that didn't end in the Krogan's extinction.

No, the Krogans are not at war with the Council. And the Council is not at war with the Krogan.

Mordin's genophage project wasn't a tool of necessity: the Krogan weren't at war, other means could be found (like keeping them shut down on their planets), and even the entire genophage, if truly necessary later, could have been applied then.

Mordin's genophage project was a tool of convenience, a biological weapon always intended for indiscriminate use against every Krogan regardless of politics, age, guilt, or any other category besides race.

Dude, the krogan were at war with everybody (hence the krogan rebellions) that's why the genophage was made. Mordin was responsible for modifying the genophage so that it could help control their population so that the krogan wouldn't constantly go to war (and by doing so, go  extinct and taking the rest of galactic civilisation down with them). If you talk to Mordin enough it makes sense and he even shows a bit of regret that such drastic measures needed to be taken but says leaving the genophage unmodified was even worse (he doesn't want to sterilise the krogan, he wants them to have a controlled, healthy population so that they can grow at a normal rate).

Agreed.  There is no scenario that stipulates not using the genophage that doesn't end in a full scale galactic war.

Keep in mind, the Krogan aren't going extinct.  I know that one or two live births per thousand sounds bad, but keep in mind the Krogan normally reproduce prolifically.  The read I get is that they reproduce in numbers similar to the Rachni, which was a survival mechanism they developed to survive the predators of their homeworld.

[jamesp81]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

the birth rate success is at pre-industrial levels, but the death rate is much higher.

It seems to me that you are misunderstanding what Mordin was talking about when he brought up preindustrial levels. Essentially the idea is that right now, with the genophage/modded-genophage, Krogan population growth rates match those of pre-industrial levels. Pre-industrial Krogan reproduced prodigiously, but also died prodigiously in their nearly constant warfare, so the population didn't grow much. However, now that the Krogan have been "uplifted" and introduced to technology and means of survival they didn't have before, their death rate is much much lower. However, at the time of the Krogan Rebellions and before the introduction of the Genophage, the birthrate remained it's usual high level, so they (the Council) were facing a population explosion of a rather violent war-mongering species.

The Genopage reduces the Krogan birth-rate so that the population growth rate matches pre-industrial levels; that is, it brings a birth rate more inline with the modern death rate so that the Krogan population doesn't explode and threaten the galaxy like it did in the Rebellions.

The genophage was modified because Krogan birth rates were increasing as they adapted, but their death rates are still much lower than they ever were before industry and uplifting. Everything Mordin was doing was to maintain the growth rate.

Now, whether or not that is still wrong is up to you, but don't mis-represent what Mordin's intentions and actions were all about.

It wasn't just Krogan warfare that kept their numbers down pre-genophage.  It was their planet.  There's a line in the codex somewhere that states something to the effect of: before the invention of firearms, the most common cause of death among Krogan was "eaten by predators".

The Salarians gave them tech to survive better not just on their own homeworld (tech which the Krogan lost when they nuked each other to hell and gone), but also introduced them to environments devoid of natural hazards.  The result was inevitable.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
This, however, is the rub: the Krogan death rate is not lower. Because of the technology that allows them to kill (and be killed) so much more easily, the Krogan are killing themselves faster than they reproduce. Pre-industrial birth rates may have been obtained, but post-industrial death rates were always higher.

Dean, you're totally wrong here.

The pre-industrial birth rate was the same as the post-industrial-pre-genophage, namely, unrestricted. The post- genophage birth rate is 1 in a 1000.

The pre-industrial death rate was high and counterbalanced the birth rate due to the number of "killed by preadator" deaths. These days the death rate, especially of Krogan females is significantly lower.

The Krogans aren't dying out. They have been maintaining stable population for more than a thousand years now. Which was the entire point of having the genophage deployed, instead glassing every Krogan planet.

However, due to the Krogan culture and general ignorance, the fact that they can't breed like rabbits any more seems like a genocide in progress to them. Plus, of course, the fact that the Council has them under its heel.

Zulu, one of the themes and sub-plots of Mass Effect 1 is that the Krogan have not been maintaining a stable population. That they aren't focusing on breeding, and even the most pragmatic (like Wrex) have become jaded and cynical. Hence why, when it's learned that Saren has created a cure, Wrex is so willing to turn on you: because it can save his people. What does it save them from? Gradual extinction.

You're arguing directly against Mass Effect 1, and on the basis of something in Mass Effect 2 that doesn't even contradict Mass Effect 1.

What Whatever said. Wrex was a brute, only a tad smarter than your average totally dumb Krogan brute. He did not know what he was talking about.

Plus what Patriarch said: before the genophage it was customary for the Krogan youth to kill off their "weaker siblings" en masse. I guess, that contributed a lot to the death rate, didn't it? But after the genophage this custom was abandoned, for more or less obvious reasons. Which is also a major concern of O'Keer's: the Krogans are getting weaker because of the less intense selection, not because their numbers are dwindling.

Also, why would Mordin bother with the genophage Mk. II, if the Krogans were dying out? Because they were not and even began to evolve and adapt to Mk. I, resulting in slight population growth, which alerted the Salarians.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 mars 2011 - 03:12 .

[Homebound]

i hate the batarians. all of them. Im a sole survivor/colonist. i hope u can understand.

[The Big Nothing]

Women in general, for slapping my Shepard with so many paternity suits.

[jamesp81]

Tennessee88 wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Inspired by the most reprehensible character topic for Dragon Age, I wanted to know who everyone thought were the more reprehensible characters in Mass Effect 2. This can include anybody in the game. Here is what I think in no particular order.

Gavin Archer- You have to be a sick individual to do something like this to your own brother. I was so mad I couldn't kill him.

Morinth- Genetic condition or not enjoying to murder of innocent victims is not cool. She really has no redeeming qualities

Zaeed Massani- Blowing up innocent people for your own selfish revenge is really monsterous. I could perfectly understand why any Shepard could leave him to die on his loyalty mission after recusing the workers.

Ronald Taylor- I let him rot in the place that he made.

Tela Vasir- She is proof of why the spectres are no better than Cerberus. She blow up four stories worth of innocent people just to kill ONE person. She really gets no sympathy for me.

Miranda Lawson- The fact the only reason she didn't put a control chip in Shepard's brain was due to a lack of permission puts her into this dog house too. If she would have gone through with it, it would have been a Moral Event Horizon for her.

Zaeed is a veteran merc who has likely seen every ugly facet of war there is. Regardless of his motivations, his actions brought down a person who would have been responsible for far more deaths than those lost at the plant. Not to mention that clown hired a bunch of GODDUMNDED terrorist.

The problem here is the statement "regardless of motivations".  Examining one's motivations is critically important to determining if they are ruled by evil or by good.  Everyone has done some of both in their lives, but everyone serves one or the other.  Examination of motives helps clarify which.

If Zaeed had said, "We have to get Vido.  He's a murdering bastard and will kill more than those at this plant if we don't stop him" it would've been one thing.  However, Zaeed said "I don't give a damn about the workers.  I'm here for my revenge!"

Those two paint a very different picture and tell you a lot about what kind of person you're dealing with.

Modifié par jamesp81, 21 mars 2011 - 03:34 .

[Interactive Civilian]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You're arguing directly against Mass Effect 1, and on the basis of something in Mass Effect 2 that doesn't even contradict Mass Effect 1.

FWIW, I see your point. However, I don't think Wrex is in a better position than the STG to know the overal census data of the Krogan to accurately say what is happening to their population. This doesn't mean that he is lying. However, he can only relate his experiences. I can imagine that, from his point of view, being a merc and dealing plenty of death to krogan himself, he would easily get the impression that the Krogan are weakening and more are dying rather than being born. But, I'm also willing to bet that he didn't spend much time in breeding areas and such counting how many were successfully being born.

I'm just saying, he's not in the best position to judge. The STG, on the other hand, was responsible for deploying the genophage and monitoring its effects, and then later modifying it. Do you think they wouldn't have an extremely accurate idea of the Krogan population situation, more accurate than a random Krogan merc we just happened to meet up with because our missions crossed paths?

Anyway, like I said, either way deciding if Mordin was wrong is up to you. However, I still think you may be misunderstanding ore at least misreading the situation and his actions.

Anyway, all that said, I think I might have to go with Nassana Dantius as my choice for most reprehensible character, at least for now off the top of my head.

[Markinator_123]

jamesp81 wrote...

The problem here is the statement "regardless of motivations".  Examining one's motivations is critically important to determining if they are ruled by evil or by good.  Everyone has done some of both in their lives, but everyone serves one or the other.  Examination of motives helps clarify which.

If Zaeed had said, "We have to get Vido.  He's a murdering bastard and will kill more than those at this plant if we don't stop him" it would've been one thing.  However, Zaeed said "I don't give a damn about the workers.  I'm here for my revenge!"

Those two paint a very different picture and tell you a lot about what kind of person you're dealing with.

I couldn't have said it better myself my friend. Zaeed's motivations are entirely selfish and its coming at the expense of innocent people. That is just evil.

[Khemical]

Conrad Verner - Serious things are happening all around the galaxy and he thinks he can get away with playing hero? Eventually he's going to get someone killed, if he doesn't die in the process.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Has anyone mentioned Sidonis? Betraying his whole squad and leading to each of their deaths, just for money?!?!

I let Garrus kill him every time.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Has anyone mentioned Sidonis? Betraying his whole squad and leading to each of their deaths, just for money?!?!

I let Garrus kill him every time.

He didn't do it for money, He did it to save his own hide.

[Thompson family]

leonia42 wrote...

The Warden on Purgatory.. that guy took justice/revenge to a whole new level with that whole operation.

Good choice.

[Akizora]

Zaeed is pretty damned reprehensible, even as a renegade my Shepard couldn't agree with what he did and this is the same Shepard that condemned an innocent man to the Overlord program and let an entire colony blow up to save the spacestation to build another.

Samara isn't reprehensible exactly, but I find her entire code to be hypocritical. If a Justicar encountered another Justicar that was in the process of killing a cop because the cop detained her, the Justicar would have to attack the Justicar and kill the Justicar..It makes little sense.

Morinth isn't reprehensible at all, she's addicted and unfortunately her addiction causes the deaths of others. To get the narcotic euphoria and power she craves she needs to kill others and she was driven into that kind of life by Asari automatically imprisoning Ardat-Yakshi without letting them understand themselves.

Miranda just rubs me the wrong way, wanting to install a controlchip in my head and being the Cerberus b**ch that always wants to defend everything Cerberus has done even when it's completely wrong and pointless. I find her entire attitude reprehensible, but she still has some redeeming qualities (I wasnt refering to her...snug outfit). She does care for her "genetic twin/sister" and sacrificed everything for her so she wouldn't have to live the same life she did.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Has anyone mentioned Sidonis? Betraying his whole squad and leading to each of their deaths, just for money?!?!

I let Garrus kill him every time.

He didn't do it for money, He did it to save his own hide.

Garrus says explicitly that he did it for the credits. Before he betrayed the squad, he didn't need to save his hide from anything. Until shiny coins made him cause the murder of Garrus' squad, and then run away.

[Khemical]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Has anyone mentioned Sidonis? Betraying his whole squad and leading to each of their deaths, just for money?!?!

I let Garrus kill him every time.

He didn't do it for money, He did it to save his own hide.

Garrus says explicitly that he did it for the credits. Before he betrayed the squad, he didn't need to save his hide from anything. Until shiny coins made him cause the murder of Garrus' squad, and then run away.

If you do the paragon thing you'd see the scene where Sidonis tells that his family was being threatened.