129 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You're arguing directly against Mass Effect 1, and on the basis of something in Mass Effect 2 that doesn't even contradict Mass Effect 1.

FWIW, I see your point. However, I don't think Wrex is in a better position than the STG to know the overal census data of the Krogan to accurately say what is happening to their population. This doesn't mean that he is lying. However, he can only relate his experiences. I can imagine that, from his point of view, being a merc and dealing plenty of death to krogan himself, he would easily get the impression that the Krogan are weakening and more are dying rather than being born. But, I'm also willing to bet that he didn't spend much time in breeding areas and such counting how many were successfully being born.

I'm just saying, he's not in the best position to judge. The STG, on the other hand, was responsible for deploying the genophage and monitoring its effects, and then later modifying it. Do you think they wouldn't have an extremely accurate idea of the Krogan population situation, more accurate than a random Krogan merc we just happened to meet up with because our missions crossed paths?

Anyway, like I said, either way deciding if Mordin was wrong is up to you. However, I still think you may be misunderstanding ore at least misreading the situation and his actions.

Anyway, all that said, I think I might have to go with Nassana Dantius as my choice for most reprehensible character, at least for now off the top of my head.

Civilian, the not-present conflict is what census data Mordin was referring to.

Mordin wasn't basing his genophage modification on the population growth rate, but cites the birth rate, a value distinct from the population growth rate. What Mordin fiddled with was the successful birth rate of the Krogan: the genophage counters the birth-benefiting advantages of technology to put the Krogan birth rate back to pre-industrial.

The problem, and the difference that isn't contrasted between games one and two, is that the Krogan post-industrial death rate (as in, the rate at which all Krogan who are a part of the population, adults and all) is not matching pre-industrial death rates. The same advances in technology that boosted the successful birth rate also boosted the overall Krogan death rate, but taking away the increased birth rate was not matched by a similar reduction in the death rate. For the same reason that guns allowed the Krogan to kill eachother faster, better guns (and a inclination to getting in fights) have also made it easier for Krogan to kill each other.

There is no actual contradiction between the two stories of Wrex and Mordin. Mordin claims the genophage enforces a pre-industrial viable birth rate. This is not in conflict with Wrex's information. Wrex tells us how the Krogan are slowly going extinct: this is not mutually exlusive with Mordin's work.


As an actual Krogan leader, and our ME1 codex-of-the-krogan character, and in not actually being contradicted by Mordin in ME2, there's no valid reason to discount Wrex in favor of something that Mordin never actually claimed.

[Labrev]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...
Gavin Archer- You have to be a sick individual to do something like this to your own brother. I was so mad I couldn't kill him.

See it like this: win a war (that is the state of things if you don't know about Legion's background info) by sacrificing one life (David's) compared to winning it by sacrificing many. Perfect utilitarian reasoning. It *feels* sick to us because it's so personal and because family is special for us, but similar things - though less personal - have happened in the real world and nobody makes a fuss. The way that scene is presented doesn't help btw - that seems more deliberately cruel than anything else.

ugh... Do. Not. Want.

The "ends justifying the means" sounds good in theory, but what's the point of saving more people if you're losing your humanity in the process? When you accept using people as things and doing things to them that you wouldn't want done to yourself, what are you fighting for? A society that rapes people in the name of "safety?" What are you saving more people for, for them too to be used as lab rats like David?

Bottom line: it's easy for you to say, if you're not David.

You spare their relatives unmeasurable pain at losing a loved one at the cost one a single life. If you were told there was a realistic possibly a war could be completely prevented and millions of lives saved but the cost is to sacrifice one, you would deny it?

Gavin went too far, even by his own admission he is acutely aware his overall goal led to inhuman experimentation to salvage time. That does not conclusion his intention nor Protect Overlord was an abomination. My response is precisely what renegade Shepard's is. I would dislike what had become of the project, perhaps even backhand Archer but I would understand his rationality and ultimately agree with the project.

No you don't. Because then its OK to use the people you have spared as lab rats all over again, to "save" people from the next war. And the next war. And the next.

Would you want to go through what David went through? It will save more lives than your own!

[Interactive Civilian]

@Dean_the_Young

Everything you said above is essentially correct, but none of it supports your claim that:

Mordin's genophage project was not about stopping conspiracy, it was about letting Council governments sleep easier with involuntary genetic rewrites, content in the knowledge that the Krogan are simply killing themselves off faster than they reproduce, but if the Krogan changed they wouldn't go extinct.

(emphasis mine)

That is not supported. Mordin explicitly states that the goal of the genophage.v2 is to maintain zero population growth. If your claim of killing themselves faster than they reproduce is correct, then that would be a negative non-zero population growth rate. So are you suggesting that the STG, and Mordin as he was working for them, did not account for current overall deathrates of the Krogan population when doing their simulations, developing, and actually deploying the genophage? It certainly isn't explicitly stated that they did, but do we really need such to be stated explicitly? Or are you suggesting that Mordin is lying and that zero growth is not their desired goal?

Mordin emphatically states that they are not striving for Krogan extinction nor do they want it. It is not implied that they are putting them into a choice position of "change your ways or go extinct because your death rate outmatches the current birthrate" or any such non-sense. Furthermore it is implied that Mordin would be more than willing to work on a cure for the genophage if the data and simulations of Krogan culture would show that they'd changed and could peacefully co-exist with the galaxy without having their breeding restricted by the genophage.

[edit]
FWIW, I'm not claiming the STG and Council are right in all of this. I could argue both ways. Whether or not what Mordin did was reprehensible is up to you, but again, I still think you are mischaracterizing his position.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 22 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[sonofalich]

Morinth without question, that biatch is the epitome of psychotic.

[gosimmons]

sonofalich wrote...

Morinth without question, that biatch is the epitome of psychotic.

Moreso than Jack? lol

[gosimmons]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

@Dean_the_Young

Everything you said above is essentially correct, but none of it supports your claim that:

Mordin's genophage project was not about stopping conspiracy, it was about letting Council governments sleep easier with involuntary genetic rewrites, content in the knowledge that the Krogan are simply killing themselves off faster than they reproduce, but if the Krogan changed they wouldn't go extinct.

(emphasis mine)

That is not supported. Mordin explicitly states that the goal of the genophage.v2 is to maintain zero population growth. If your claim of killing themselves faster than they reproduce is correct, then that would be a negative non-zero population growth rate. So are you suggesting that the STG, and Mordin as he was working for them, did not account for current overall deathrates of the Krogan population when doing their simulations, developing, and actually deploying the genophage? It certainly isn't explicitly stated that they did, but do we really need such to be stated explicitly? Or are you suggesting that Mordin is lying and that zero growth is not their desired goal?

Mordin emphatically states that they are not striving for Krogan extinction nor do they want it. It is not implied that they are putting them into a choice position of "change your ways or go extinct because your death rate outmatches the current birthrate" or any such non-sense. Furthermore it is implied that Mordin would be more than willing to work on a cure for the genophage if the data and simulations of Krogan culture would show that they'd changed and could peacefully co-exist with the galaxy without having their breeding restricted by the genophage.

[edit]
FWIW, I'm not claiming the STG and Council are right in all of this. I could argue both ways. Whether or not what Mordin did was reprehensible is up to you, but again, I still think you are mischaracterizing his position.

Whether or not the entire redeveloping of the genophage was wrong, I agree it does seem like they would have worked the differing variables into consideration.
Stabilization was the goal, not extinction. Seems kind of ironic that Krogan infighting should have to be taken into consideration to help preserve a race though. Especially considering their potential lifespans.

[Yakko77]

Markinator_123 wrote...



Zaeed Massani- Blowing up innocent people for your own selfish revenge is really monsterous. I could perfectly understand why any Shepard could leave him to die on his loyalty mission after recusing the workers.

It'd be one thing if you couldn't stop him from doing so but all my paragon Sheps stop him and he's still loyal and very effective in combat.  I bring him a lot. 

Besides, the guy is a merc, not a missionary. 

As for the rest of your list, I  think you're a bit hard on Miranda but otherwise I  agree.

[dolphin1329]

jamesp81 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Jacob - Existing

Poor Jacob, if he was a real life person he'd be liked I bet.

If he was a real life person, he'd be in my inner circle of trust, kind of like Garrus.  He sees what needs to be done without drinking TIM's kool aid.

+1 Garrus and Jacob seem like the two stand up members of the squad.

Modifié par dolphin1329, 22 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[V-rex]

Okay, I got a few....

1: Rael Zorah/ Daro Xen
Crime: Attempting to destroy the free will of self aware beings.
Simply put by doing what he did Rael Zorah crossed many boundaries. First of all it's a sick war crime to experiment on prisoners at the best of times regardless of wether they are Geth or not. Second it's even sicker to want to destroy a free thinking being's right to free will which is of course exactly what he was trying to do.
Not to mention that in addition to trying illegal and amoral experiments on self aware beings, he also broke Quarian law, jeapordized the safety of the fleet and subsequently resulted in the deaths of many innocent Quarians aboard in the process.
As for Xen? Well she operates under the same mindset and doesn't seem to even hesitate at the thought of going back to doing the research with neither moral nor even logical considerations about the ethics and risks of such an experiment. I mean, wow, how the hell did these guys ever make it to Admiral? They are practically dooming their whole race to extinction once again.

2: Okeer
Crime: Insane war mongering and propegating the idea of a 'master race'.
Right off the bat, Okeer bothered me. His attitude regarding Turians and Salarians not withstanding, he seems to be some kind of insane megalomaniac. Constantly talking about ideals of genetic perfection and trying to 'cure' and 'perfect' the Krogan by mixing and breeding and genetically cloning an ideal perfect future race of the Krogan people.
I can think of a few wacky Germans that once tried a similar tactic. In any case he creates an army of half formed tank bred Krogan who end up being killed as target practice in large numbers while pushing all his efforts into creating the one perfect Krogan prototype.
I guess what I'm saying is, his lack of ethics in the treatment of his creations combined with his maniacal war fantasies and frankly fascist ideals make him quite the reprehensable krogan.
Still... we got Grunt out of it, and he's pretty cool. Not as much as Wrex, mind.

3: Morinith
Crime: Unapologetic serial killer.
Where do I even begin? Morinith is a creature seemingly without a concious. A person who kills innocents not because she has to sacrifice them for the benefit of the galaxy, not out of racial revenge for crimes long past, hell not even out of personal offence towards them.
She kills innocent people, people with loved ones and family... for recreation.
As though it gives her a sense of fullfilment and power, Morinith has no qualms with seducing and murdering as she sees fit. It's not even due to a mental disorder or psychological defect, she has a perfectly functioning brain. She just doesn't care. She's a Vampire and a monster who has left a trail of innocent dead in her wake and hordes of heartbroken family members as well.
She deserved everything she got and then a little more.

4: Ronald Taylor
Crime: Misogynist power fantasies.
He let his crew eat food that would rot out their brains and cause them to be unable to think clearly. Rather than take responsibility for that, he soon starts to assign women to officers and create his own harem out in space. Taking advantage of the poor women with the weakened mental capacities, until finally he and he alone ruled the roost as the new leader.
I was more than happy to send him to prison.

5: Maelon
Crime: Sick experiments.
Now, Dean has already talked about Mordin and the modified genophage. So I figured there was no reason to repeat that, for what it's worth I mostly agree with Dean although I do think Mordin has the potential to redeem himself.
Sadly for his pal Maelon, that's another matter.
For what it's worth Maelon the character gets off the hook because although his actions were sick, his intentions were noble at heart. He wanted desperatley to right the wrong he had committed.
Sadly this resulted in many innocent Krogan undergoing experiments and suffering horrific deaths and in the process feeding the power fantasies of the radicalist clan Werylock.
Despite all the deaths, torture and inhumane experiments... Maelon had done it with the best intentions. Sadly, some of the worst atrocities ever committed in human history were done with the best intentions.

6: Warden Kuril
Crime: Being a slave owner pretending to be an prison warden.
Pretty much self explanatory, dude locks prisoners up, allows inhumane treatment of them and excessive force and also holds them for a price. The fact that he tried to kidnap and sell Shepard is evidence enough of that.

Well, that's all I can think of right now.

[V-rex]

Double post.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I still think Dr. Saleon(Dr Heart) is the sickest bastard of all the Salarian doctors.

[TobyHasEyes]

Would disagree with the choice of Rael Zorah. Do geth feel pain? Seeing as the physical bodies are simply 'mobile platforms', which individually are little more than basic computers, is it really the same as experimenting on even a complete being like Legion? I always support the peaceful option between the true Geth and the Flotilla so in no way do I support the aims of his experiments, but I don't think they themselves are even on a moral par with animal experimentation

[MajesticJazz]

dolphin1329 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Jacob - Existing

Poor Jacob, if he was a real life person he'd be liked I bet.

If he was a real life person, he'd be in my inner circle of trust, kind of like Garrus.  He sees what needs to be done without drinking TIM's kool aid.

+1 Garrus and Jacob seem like the two stand up members of the squad.

It is a breath of fresh air to see people who view Jacob for what he is, a stand up kind of guy who is really honest with you and tries to do what is moraly right. If everyone in the ME2 squad was real life people, and I had to pick one of them to trust, it would be Jacob along with Tali and Garrus.

[Khemical]

MajesticJazz wrote...

dolphin1329 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Jacob - Existing

Poor Jacob, if he was a real life person he'd be liked I bet.

If he was a real life person, he'd be in my inner circle of trust, kind of like Garrus.  He sees what needs to be done without drinking TIM's kool aid.

+1 Garrus and Jacob seem like the two stand up members of the squad.

It is a breath of fresh air to see people who view Jacob for what he is, a stand up kind of guy who is really honest with you and tries to do what is moraly right. If everyone in the ME2 squad was real life people, and I had to pick one of them to trust, it would be Jacob along with Tali and Garrus.

...but the prize...

[amillian]

Humans- because you are all racist!

[Barquiel]

squadmates - Thane, Morinth, Zaeed
spectres - Renegade Shepard, Saren, Vasir
other NPCs - TIM, Dr.Saleon, Dr.Archer, Udina, Balak

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Paragon Shepard

This.

Also, Admiral Anderson (after Retribution).

[Barquiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I think you should consider adding Nihlus to that list as well. According to Samara he isn't a nice guy. Should that be surprising though? He's a Spectre after all and it isn't as if we knew him long enough to really know him. At least he isn't a racist. 

You're right, I forgot Nihlus. But as far as we know, the other three spectres have the higher body count (Samara said he killed one innocent, iirc).

Saphra Deden wrote...
The only black mark I see against Udina is his coup against the Council.

That's why he is on my list.

Modifié par Barquiel, 22 mars 2011 - 09:03 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

MajesticJazz wrote...

It is a breath of fresh air to see people who view Jacob for what he is, a stand up kind of guy who is really honest with you and tries to do what is moraly right. If everyone in the ME2 squad was real life people, and I had to pick one of them to trust, it would be Jacob along with Tali and Garrus.

I disliked Jacob as a squaddie but agree 100% with what you say here. He is a very standup, decent man, and I respect that a lot. My main issue with him was more that there wasn't really a standout element to his character... no, not in terms of daddy issues or anything, but I didn't really get a sense of who he was beyond general decency and honesty. What were his hobbies? What did he like to do? What was life in the corsairs like?

I felt Kaidan was a bit better at this... not only was he a stand-up guy, but you could also describe him in a few short sentences ("He's a bit repressed. He gets headaches. He gets flustered easily but tries to keep things professional.") I just never quite got Jacob's character like that. I'd have liked a few more "bullet points" for lack of a better term (e.g. "He likes to work out. He gets angry about mercs. He doesn't like taking shore leave too often, but enjoys himself fully when he does.") I actually liked him a bit more retroactively after reading his dossier with the Shadow Broker.

[Markinator_123]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Paragon Shepard

This.

Also, Admiral Anderson (after Retribution).

I agree with this as well. Self-righteous buffoons! Someone else mentioned Jack and I agree with her being on the list as well.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 23 mars 2011 - 01:20 .

[Gavinthelocust]

Batarians and Tali.
Both are racist prats, only one of them is unbearably cute. Take a guess which one.

[Markinator_123]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Batarians and Tali.
Both are racist prats, only one of them is unbearably cute. Take a guess which one.

A batarian female? It couldn't be Tali because she is not cute she sucks!