255 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: The main point is, however, that his cameo, IF in love, he's supposed to be faithful to the warden. 

I'm not disputing that. Instead, i'm rather getting at possibility that given the passage of time and the extra circumstances revealed at the end of the game Zevran and the Warden perhaps simply aren't together anymore. Which would make Zevran about as unfaithful as Aveline is "unfaithful" to Wesley when she takes interest in Donnic, eventually.

It's mainly, the desire to still have the Warden's love interest to be "with them happily ever after" at this stage feels a bit fairytale-like, and as such just not fitting too well overall themes/mood of DA setting.

But you could make that same argument about Alistair.  Why should any of the LIs still be in love with the warden?  No matter what kind of commitment they made?  Even with King Alistair and Queen CousCous, why would they still be in love.  Remember that Zevran's last romance dialog can end with a proposal -- why is it fairy tale that they still love each other?

However, the cameos are there to be fan service.  Why have them there at all if you're going to have all the LIs broken up with the warden?

But it's a bug.  For all of them.  A combination of bugs, actually.  Leliana is a bit lucky that hers is apparently just an import bug.  Zevran's is not fixed by fixing the import flag, and nor is Alistair's. 

I just took a bit of umbrage at the idea that Alistair's relationship would be more likely to last than Zevran's would.  Zevran certainly ends Origins completely committed to the warden.

Edit: In fact, I think this whole argument is the main reason why Zevran's cameo is so much worse.  Because it really does dismantle his love story.  People think all the changes he went through are just tossed out -- it's more than him not loving the warden; he changed on a deeper level than that.  And it also reinforces the whole, "Zevran has no depth.  All he wants is sex."  Which is just totally different from his story.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2011 - 01:58 .

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

But you could make that same argument about Alistair.  In fact, in many cases it would seem more appropriate for Alistair and the warden to be just friends if you end up with the mistress ending, or even the gray warden ending.

True, which is why i commented it's odd Alistair appears to be in relationship with the Warden still, despite the latter is in the end stated to be gone   And for the same reason i didn't mind Leliana's bugged line -- leaving aside it's ambiguous enough to work no matter if she's LI or not, even the version which is supposed to trigger for the LI makes it clear this particular relationship is thing of the past.

Why would Zevran and the Warden be more likely to be broken up?  Especially since, again, his US in-love ending does state that he never loves again.

I wasn't singling Zevran's romance out here as any more likely than the others to come to such conclusion, sorry if that's how it came across. As far as love goes that can still be true, Zevran is rather obviously capable of engaging in sex without bringing love into it.

However, the cameos are there to be fan service.  Why have them there at all if you're going to have all the LIs broken up with the warden?

I enjoyed seeing the characters i've used to "know" again and learning what was happening to them few years after DAO. This update of sorts was fan service to me and very good reason to have them. Getting to know their status was valuable in itself... if that makes sense.

I'm not sure how to read your question, because i interpret it in way that's like "If they aren't there to confirm they're still in love with the PC then why have them at all?" and that's probably wrong way to read it? If it's correct then it's just too PC-centric focus for me to really empathize with.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 mars 2011 - 02:11 .

[ejoslin]

Ah, they are not only there to confirm that they're in love with the warden (I really did enjoy Alistair calling my Queen CousCous whom he married at neutral the old ball and chain, for instance -- and another import when where he complained that Loghain was still alive).  But acknowledging the romances should have been part of it, and in fact, was meant to be part of it (again, this is bugs keeping them out).

But say it wasn't caused by bugs (which most assuredly, the wrong dialogs are triggering).  It really doesn't make sense that the love stories would be disregarded to the extent that they were.   I was glad that there were bugs; hopefully they'l lbe fixed.

As far as PC centric?  Take Witch Hunt, as an example. The reaction to her initial bugs... Imagine if Morrigan just totally dismissed any pretense of feeling there -- there would have been FAR more anger, and there was anger enough. It really is no different than for any of the other love interests. You may not think it's realistic, but there it is. People liked their wardens, like their love stories, and didn't want to watch, for instance, the person who their warden ended up with at the end of Origins totally ignoring their romances.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Dunizel]

tmp7704 wrote...

I enjoyed seeing the characters i've used to "know" again and learning what was happening to them few years after DAO. This update of sorts was fan service to me and very good reason to have them. Getting to know their status was valuable in itself... if that makes sense.

It does make sense, and it is one of the reasons why I would like the lines for an alive Warden to trigger. From a romanced Zevran we know he "has a Warden to return to".  It's not just a matter of how faithful he is. He knows where the Warden is, as far as we know he might be there in some sort of mission monitoring the situation in Kirkwall...something the Warden can't do openly (if the Warden is dead, maybe for Alistair, who knows). He is even there in the final battle...I'm not saying by any means that a romanced Zevran is the only link between the Warden and the Champion, but it is sure that the right lines add some more information to his personal story...

Modifié par Dunizel, 27 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

But acknowledging the romances should have been part of it, and in fact, was meant to be part of it (again, this is bugs keeping them out).

There's a distinction here though -- between acknowledging that the romance at some point had happened and a confirmation the romance is still going. In fact, that's what happens with Leliana who's supposed to say the Warden "was dear to her heart, but that's many years ago".

As far as PC centric?  Take Witch Hunt, as an example. The reaction to her initial bugs... Imagine if Morrigan just totally dismissed any pretense of feeling there -- there would have been FAR more anger, and there was anger enough. It really is no different than for any of the other love interests. You may not think it's realistic, but there it is. People liked their wardens, like their love stories, and didn't want to watch, for instance, the person who their warden ended up with at the end of Origins totally ignoring their romances.

I suppose there's again difference here between lack of acknowledge for the romance, and denying there's some actual feelings involved in what had taken place. As i understand it the bugs in the Witch Hunt resulted in the former, while the latter would be actually interesting... even if no doubt there'd be outcry about it

There's also another difference to me here, and that's based on who is the intended target of information in game. It certainly makes perfect sense for Morrigan to talk about this subject with the Warden in the Witch Hunt given it's their own relationship they're discussing. But when the discussion is generally about completely different subject and with a person who has zero interest in being told that (Hawke) and few years after on top of that, then it becomes tricky to bring it up in ways that don't feel simply like forced reference for the sake of having a reference. Which imo is worse than no mention at all (if such lack of mention made more sense, in given circumstances)

Granted, in Zevran's case as long as he's supposed to still be in relationship and intends to be faithful in it, then bringing it up in response to advances certainly makes perfect sense.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 mars 2011 - 02:46 .

[ejoslin]

Yeh, that's exactly what was supposed to bring up comments about the warden -- hitting on him was supposed to have him refusing. He was also supposed to refuse to go with Isabela. There's no great professions of love or anything going on (though the dead-warden demurs are heartbreaking). He also is supposed to say that he has a warden to get back to provided the warden is alive.

It's a small thing, really, but it makes a difference. As is Gray Warden Alistair calling the warden the love of his life (which, well, he doesn't) as he's supposed to instead of referring to her as a friend. The marriage line is too bad since it goes for both in-love and political marriages, but that actually triggers.

I just am hoping that these bugs will be fixed. Or a toolset is released. Since this is a smaller game than Origins, I'm hoping dialog bugs can be addressed.

Edit: I have some hope since WH WAS addressed and it seems other dialog bugs are being worked on. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2011 - 03:28 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Guys. I'm not sure you realize that patches are not for things that change the entire game.

EDIT: I meant that patches are for bugs. What you are all asking is for them to REWRITE, RE-ANIMATE, RE-EVERYTHING portions of the game (which would in turn require them to Re-Everything everything ELSE) just because you are personally unsatisfied with the story.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 27 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[ejoslin]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Guys. I'm not sure you realize that patches are not for things that change the entire game.

EDIT: I meant that patches are for bugs. What you are all asking is for them to REWRITE, RE-ANIMATE, RE-EVERYTHING portions of the game (which would in turn require them to Re-Everything everything ELSE) just because you are personally unsatisfied with the story.

No one is asking for anything to be rewritten, reanimated, or reanythinged.  We are talking about dialog bugs (had you read the thread, you'd know this).  There are the import flag bugs that are causing some of these among other things. Leliana is fully fixed when her import flags are fixed, and Zevran and Alistair are partially fixed but get new bugs when their import flags are fixed.

I'm hoping either these bugs are fixed in a patch, or a toolset is released so they can be fixed via mod.

Edit: Perhaps you're unware of the issues (though how you could NOT know about the import bugs is beyond me) but they do exist.  DAO had lots of dialog bugs as well that were fixed via mod.  While this is ok, it's preferable that BW fixes these bugs so console users also get the fixes.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2011 - 04:23 .

[Brockololly]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Guys. I'm not sure you realize that patches are not for things that change the entire game.

EDIT: I meant that patches are for bugs. What you are all asking is for them to REWRITE, RE-ANIMATE, RE-EVERYTHING portions of the game (which would in turn require them to Re-Everything everything ELSE) just because you are personally unsatisfied with the story.

Ummm....no?

I mean, at least my understanding is that for the romances (Zev, Leliana, and Alistair) that are acknowledged in DA2, its just that the material is there, its been voice acted, but DA2 isn't reading the right flags and/or the import isn't working right. 

[Batorific]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Guys. I'm not sure you realize that patches are not for things that change the entire game.

EDIT: I meant that patches are for bugs. What you are all asking is for them to REWRITE, RE-ANIMATE, RE-EVERYTHING portions of the game (which would in turn require them to Re-Everything everything ELSE) just because you are personally unsatisfied with the story.

incorrect. the scenes and dialogue are very much IN the game but due to dialogue bugs, are not triggering properly. this is not a "rewrite this" qq.

[Bryy_Miller]

Brockololly wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Guys. I'm not sure you realize that patches are not for things that change the entire game.

EDIT: I meant that patches are for bugs. What you are all asking is for them to REWRITE, RE-ANIMATE, RE-EVERYTHING portions of the game (which would in turn require them to Re-Everything everything ELSE) just because you are personally unsatisfied with the story.

Ummm....no?

I mean, at least my understanding is that for the romances (Zev, Leliana, and Alistair) that are acknowledged in DA2, its just that the material is there, its been voice acted, but DA2 isn't reading the right flags and/or the import isn't working right. 

Oh, well then. Silly me for only reading the first few pages of gush.

[ejoslin]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Guys. I'm not sure you realize that patches are not for things that change the entire game.

EDIT: I meant that patches are for bugs. What you are all asking is for them to REWRITE, RE-ANIMATE, RE-EVERYTHING portions of the game (which would in turn require them to Re-Everything everything ELSE) just because you are personally unsatisfied with the story.

Ummm....no?

I mean, at least my understanding is that for the romances (Zev, Leliana, and Alistair) that are acknowledged in DA2, its just that the material is there, its been voice acted, but DA2 isn't reading the right flags and/or the import isn't working right. 

Oh, well then. Silly me for only reading the first few pages of gush.

My first post made it clear we were talking about dialog bugs that weren't fixed even when the import flags were fixed.  You didn't have to wade through gush.

Have a great evening!

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Correction. Had I not skimmed.

[ejoslin]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Correction. Had I not skimmed.

I even listed the bugs on the first page (my second post, it's about 5 or 6 in).  In a very readable format.  Even reading my first post should have made it clear that I was talking about bugs, not complaining about dialog.

A lot of people, not just Zevran fans, want this fixed.  I think actually LISTING what bugs are going on is a good thing -- maybe then they will be fixed.  I believe the import flag bug will be fixed, but since a mod already fixes this, people know that fixing the import flags for Zevran and Alistair create new bugs.  In particular, the warden is seen as dead even when alive, still not all dialog is triggering properly, but the dialog that is references the warden as dead (for instance, Zevran rejects Isabela telling her his loss is too recent).

So when the import bugs are fixed, it would be nice if the dialog bugs are fixed so new bugs aren't introduced.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2011 - 04:34 .

[BlueElf2]

I really hope this gets fixed as well. I was in the middle of a playthrough of DA:O when this game came out, and I was planning on have my ladyMage romance Zevran, so I'd have another save to carry over besides just my Alistair romance one, but if the dialogue doesn't trigger correctly, it seems like such a waste.

[morbusswg]

I just read this whole thread... there's no way I'm doing the crows quest if Zev ends up sleeping with Isabella or Hawke (I was about to start my run through with my Zev romance save)... Thanks for the heads up before I had my heart broken The absence of Zev in Awakenings really had me looking forward to his cameo in DA-2, but if its bugged this badly, I don't even want to see it on this save.

[Tielis]

Any word, BioWare, on fixing your **** game? Y'know, the one where you advertised importing from Origins? Y'know, the one we paid for?

[Saibh]

Tielis wrote...

Any word, BioWare, on fixing your **** game? Y'know, the one where you advertised importing from Origins? Y'know, the one we paid for?

You're lucky I'm not in control, because I'm spiteful.

I wouldn't swear, because they already have your money. Whether they fix it is up to them, so there's no need to be viciously rude about it.

[Sjofn]

morbusswg wrote...

I just read this whole thread... there's no way I'm doing the crows quest if Zev ends up sleeping with Isabella or Hawke (I was about to start my run through with my Zev romance save)... Thanks for the heads up before I had my heart broken The absence of Zev in Awakenings really had me looking forward to his cameo in DA-2, but if its bugged this badly, I don't even want to see it on this save.

He looks like Gollum to me in DA2 anyway.

I mostly like the new elves, but New Zevran made me go .

[Tielis]

Saibh wrote...

Tielis wrote...

Any word, BioWare, on fixing your **** game? Y'know, the one where you advertised importing from Origins? Y'know, the one we paid for?

You're lucky I'm not in control, because I'm spiteful.

I wouldn't swear, because they already have your money. Whether they fix it is up to them, so there's no need to be viciously rude about it.

Yes, whether they fix it is up to them.  Whether they go on stepping on the goodwill of their loyal customers is also up to them.

[hoorayforicecream]

They've flagged several bugs for fixing already. There's a patch coming, it just needs to go through certain processes for some platforms (e.g. needs Sony and Microsoft approval for PS3 and 360 builds).

[KawaiiKatie]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They've flagged several bugs for fixing already. There's a patch coming, it just needs to go through certain processes for some platforms (e.g. needs Sony and Microsoft approval for PS3 and 360 builds).

Is there a list of known bugs? Rather, is an Bioware-sanctioned list of bugs, something to the effect of, "Here are some problems that we, the Dragon Age team, are aware of, and are currently looking into"?

Because I would love to see the Love-Interest Cameos get added to Bioware's attention. I mean, it doesn't have to be their top priority, but any kind of reassurance that Bioware is aware of the DA:O Love Interest bugs would put me a little more at ease...

[Zjarcal]

tmp7704 wrote...
There's a distinction here though -- between acknowledging that the romance at some point had happened and a confirmation the romance is still going. In fact, that's what happens with Leliana who's supposed to say the Warden "was dear to her heart, but that's many years ago".

Eh, no.

When the dialog recognizes the romance, she says "she (he) IS dear to my heart" and then immediately skips to saying she's working for the Divine. She only says "but that was many years ago" in the dialog that doesn't acknowledge the romance.

Proof:

Modifié par Zjarcal, 28 mars 2011 - 08:16 .

[hoorayforicecream]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They've flagged several bugs for fixing already. There's a patch coming, it just needs to go through certain processes for some platforms (e.g. needs Sony and Microsoft approval for PS3 and 360 builds).

Is there a list of known bugs? Rather, is an Bioware-sanctioned list of bugs, something to the effect of, "Here are some problems that we, the Dragon Age team, are aware of, and are currently looking into"?

Because I would love to see the Love-Interest Cameos get added to Bioware's attention. I mean, it doesn't have to be their top priority, but any kind of reassurance that Bioware is aware of the DA:O Love Interest bugs would put me a little more at ease...

As far as I know, there is no such thing. However, given how much attention players have been giving this issue, I find it hard to believe the devs have missed it.

[tmp7704]

Zjarcal wrote...

Eh, no.

When the dialog recognizes the romance, she says "she (he) IS dear to my heart"(..)

The dialogue talk table has versions for both "is" and "was". I'd guess the "was" is then only used in case if the Warden is dead, but oddly enough she only ever "knew" the Hero of Ferelden, there's no other version of this line.

This can be read two ways -- either Leliana "knew" the Warden rather than "knows" because they're no longer together (but he/she is still dear to her heart), or they're still together but for some reason she no longer "knows" the Warden, perhaps because --like the ending reveals-- the Warden is supposedly gone and Leliana doesn't seem to know where.