*screeching mad voice* Don't you dare hate on Shakespeare! I will fill my cat with explosives and throw him at your house in the name of freedom of mages! Err... what? Sorry, that wasn't me - that was my possessed other self.
Seriously though - I don't actually like Shakespeare, but I would never argue the fact that he's a master. Drama is good - melodrama is not.
Gay romance options.. a little rant (spoiler-ish)
Débuté par
Ixiel
, mars 20 2011 03:54
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#27
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 06:17
leggywillow
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Medhia Nox wrote...
Seriously though - I don't actually like Shakespeare, but I would never argue the fact that he's a master. Drama is good - melodrama is not.
Of course he's the master, but I think Shakespeare himself would say "Whoa guys, hang on a second" if he knew he was being mentioned in a discussion about wanting psychologically stable and healthy romances.
#28
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 06:20
Medhia Nox
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@Leggywillow: Oh, I have it all wrong - no, nothing stable about his romances. I was just suggesting that they were well written screwed up people instead of what we have here.
#29
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 11:33
Taura-Tierno
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And what romance options did we have in DA:O? The selfish, (almost) evil exotic witch from the swamps? The girl with crazy dreams? The promiscuous assassin? Makes Alistair feel like the only solid romance option there, but I'm sure someone could find a fitting lable for him as well.
If you downgrade characters to archetypes, most of them in most games are horrible.
If you downgrade characters to archetypes, most of them in most games are horrible.
#30
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 11:37
Ryzaki
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MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Medhia Nox wrote...
Note: Funny you mention Jacob and Edward - I believe Twilight was once referenced by the developers on how good romances could be written. So, that's telling you something.
Wow..that's depressing.
Though it would explain why you can't go along with Anders without suffering from battered wife syndrome.
*headdesks*
Please point out one time Anders hits Hawke.. Apologizes and Hawke takes him back.
#31
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 11:48
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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Ryzaki wrote...
MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Medhia Nox wrote...
Note: Funny you mention Jacob and Edward - I believe Twilight was once referenced by the developers on how good romances could be written. So, that's telling you something.
Wow..that's depressing.
Though it would explain why you can't go along with Anders without suffering from battered wife syndrome.
*headdesks*
Please point out one time Anders hits Hawke.. Apologizes and Hawke takes him back.
Because the only kind of abuse is the kind that leaves marks.
#32
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 11:55
Sarah1281
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Oh, please.
"A pattern of signs and symptoms, such as fear and a perceived inability to escape, appearing in women who are physically and mentally abused over an extended period by a husband or other dominant individual."
What does Anders do? He lies - badly - about making a potion to get rid of Justice when really he wants to make a bomb. That's not abuse. Asking you to distract the Grand Cleric so he can plant a bomb without telling you isn't abuse either. It's a dick move but dick moves are not the same thing as abuse. Then Anders blow up the Chantry. How does this abuse Hawke more than it abuses anyone else?
And beyond the fact that Anders doesn't abuse Hawke, it's important to note that Hawke is not afraid of Anders. If it comes to a fight, she can (and does if you let him live and side with templars) kill him. Hawke can also very easily escape the relationship. Anders tells you before it even starts that it's a bad idea and there are plenty of chances to end it. Anders certainly doesn't expect to even live let alone continue dating Hawke post-Chantry. I don't know how ANYONE could think that they couldn't get out of that relationship if they wanted to.
If you think that those who stay with Anders are unbalanced or have other issues that's one thing but those issues are simply NOT battered wife syndrome. I'd disagree that Anders is the dominant person in the relationship and furthermore the time between gathering the ingredients and blowing up the Chantry is probably less than a week but certainly no more than a couple of them. No extended period of time.
Just because you disagree with the choice to date Anders doesn't mean anyone who does has battered wife syndrome. There's nothing wrong with dating him. Staying with him post-Chantry is a little trickier but it still does not fit the classification of battered wife syndrome.
"A pattern of signs and symptoms, such as fear and a perceived inability to escape, appearing in women who are physically and mentally abused over an extended period by a husband or other dominant individual."
What does Anders do? He lies - badly - about making a potion to get rid of Justice when really he wants to make a bomb. That's not abuse. Asking you to distract the Grand Cleric so he can plant a bomb without telling you isn't abuse either. It's a dick move but dick moves are not the same thing as abuse. Then Anders blow up the Chantry. How does this abuse Hawke more than it abuses anyone else?
And beyond the fact that Anders doesn't abuse Hawke, it's important to note that Hawke is not afraid of Anders. If it comes to a fight, she can (and does if you let him live and side with templars) kill him. Hawke can also very easily escape the relationship. Anders tells you before it even starts that it's a bad idea and there are plenty of chances to end it. Anders certainly doesn't expect to even live let alone continue dating Hawke post-Chantry. I don't know how ANYONE could think that they couldn't get out of that relationship if they wanted to.
If you think that those who stay with Anders are unbalanced or have other issues that's one thing but those issues are simply NOT battered wife syndrome. I'd disagree that Anders is the dominant person in the relationship and furthermore the time between gathering the ingredients and blowing up the Chantry is probably less than a week but certainly no more than a couple of them. No extended period of time.
Just because you disagree with the choice to date Anders doesn't mean anyone who does has battered wife syndrome. There's nothing wrong with dating him. Staying with him post-Chantry is a little trickier but it still does not fit the classification of battered wife syndrome.
#33
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 11:56
Emperor Iaius I
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Taura-Tierno wrote...
And what romance options did we have in DA:O? The selfish, (almost) evil exotic witch from the swamps? The girl with crazy dreams? The promiscuous assassin? Makes Alistair feel like the only solid romance option there, but I'm sure someone could find a fitting lable for him as well.
If you downgrade characters to archetypes, most of them in most games are horrible.
This.
Also, some of us like blood mages. My problem is not with the characters, who are wonderfully broken (sorry that there's no fairy tale romance, folks! I appreciate that there's no Disney prince or princess love interests), but the way the romances amount to flirting once or twice and then having sex and living together. What? Who does that?
#34
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 11:57
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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That's what I'm getting at. It's just creepy that the "Good" answer to him "Oh Anders! I'll always be by your side!" Bollocks to that. It's ridiculous and unbelievable. No one is that happy to run off with a terrorist. I blame the writers though.
#35
Posté 20 mars 2011 - 11:58
Taura-Tierno
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I felt that the Fenris romance was no just "flirt once or twice" and then sex. I guess it might've been because it happens over two Acts, which is 3 years ... but there was a lot of other talks, too.
#36
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 12:01
Thiefy
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Ixiel wrote...
*snip*
On one hand I can choose Anders .... Half way into our friendship I'm begin to think he may have eaten sir pounce-a-lot just so they would never be apart.
*snip*
*snip*
On the other hand I could choose Fenris.....has two emotional modes, loathing & broken.
*snip*
lol, i respectfully disagree with you OP but I do find your choice of words to be really funny and amusing to say the least
Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 21 mars 2011 - 12:03 .
#37
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 12:01
Ryzaki
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MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Because the only kind of abuse is the kind that leaves marks.
Yes because Anders totally emotionally abuses Hawke too. Yup. Tells her she's nothing but trash, manipulates her constantly, is cruel to her and so on and so forth.
Yup. Totally abusive.
I mean Hawke's so abused and battered that she can't choose to walk away from Anders at any time. Without him trying to cling to her.
Please don't try to downplay actual battered wife syndrome by comparing it to the Anders romance.
You may not agree with it (hell that's why it's optional) but saying Anders is giving Hawke battered wife syndrome is straight up nonsense.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2011 - 12:05 .
#38
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 12:08
Emperor Iaius I
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Taura-Tierno wrote...
I felt that the Fenris romance was no just "flirt once or twice" and then sex. I guess it might've been because it happens over two Acts, which is 3 years ... but there was a lot of other talks, too.
Certainly, but those talks are part of the friendship/rivalry path that you could access without romancing at all, right? The friendship/rivalry stuff is really well done, and I have to commend the writers on it. It's convincing and it's nice how you can take completely opposite directions with a character but still feel like it was a natural, organic outcome. It sure beats the gift spamming and one-sidedness of DA:O.
But the romances themselves amount to a few dialogue lines and a single scene, outside friendship/romance. That's my problem. With the friendship/rivalry stuff as context then sure, you can see how people depend on each other, but it's not romance as much as "trusted friends ---> love" Something's skipped there!
I mean, maybe they did that on purpose for fanfic writers to fill in what happened between Acts I and II.
Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 21 mars 2011 - 12:08 .
#39
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 12:11
Sarah1281
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It's not the good one, it's the diplomatic one. The diplomatic option when Leandra went missing involved telling Gamlen Aveline's guards would find Leandra. The 'bad' direct one was saying that denial wouldn't help anything. It's not a simple good-bad ratio. The diplomatic options are just guaranteed to be as kind and appeasing as possible. If you're going to have a 'run off with Anders' option, what better personality choice?MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
That's what I'm getting at. It's just creepy that the "Good" answer to him "Oh Anders! I'll always be by your side!" Bollocks to that. It's ridiculous and unbelievable. No one is that happy to run off with a terrorist. I blame the writers though.
#40
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 12:13
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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Sarah1281 wrote...
It's not the good one, it's the diplomatic one. The diplomatic option when Leandra went missing involved telling Gamlen Aveline's guards would find Leandra. The 'bad' direct one was saying that denial wouldn't help anything. It's not a simple good-bad ratio. The diplomatic options are just guaranteed to be as kind and appeasing as possible. If you're going to have a 'run off with Anders' option, what better personality choice?MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
That's what I'm getting at. It's just creepy that the "Good" answer to him "Oh Anders! I'll always be by your side!" Bollocks to that. It's ridiculous and unbelievable. No one is that happy to run off with a terrorist. I blame the writers though.
The diplomatic option was the doofus option. For a Hawke that showed so much shock when the Grand Cleric went backwards through the gates in a fireball to meet the Maker she sure as heck didn't seem all that miffed about it later. It's disjointed. Your character's personality jumps all over the place.
#41
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 12:16
Ryzaki
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So...choosing the diplomatic and kind option towards Anders somehow breaks character?
You realize you're supposed to choose based off the situation and not just the icon right?
There are times a diplomatic response wouldn't make sense for your character. In those times you...don't pick it.
You realize you're supposed to choose based off the situation and not just the icon right?
There are times a diplomatic response wouldn't make sense for your character. In those times you...don't pick it.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2011 - 12:16 .
#42
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:55
Jenova65
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My only real problem with the romance choices (and why I think BioWare hate heterosexual women and gay men, lol) is that you can kill both Anders and Fenris but Isabella and Merrill have plot armour....... nice. Thanks. No, really.... ¬_¬
Not that I would kill either of them, but why can't I?
And it isn't a story issue, sorry BioWare.
I *might* really take issue with the fact that Merrill could destroy her clan (or cause me to have to fight and kill them all) or that Isabela might be comfortable with being responsible for the Qunari war and the slaughter of not just the grand cleric and a handful of chantry sisters like Anders, but many innocent folk of Kirkwall and many Qunari and she isn't even doing it for any (misguided) noble reason :/
In fact Fenris out of all those four is the least dangerous potentially, and from a purely logical point of view, the one we have less reason to kill... all he wants is freedom and a bit of revenge on Danarius and co. Whatever his views on mages, he isn't looking to start a war against them.
Not that I would kill either of them, but why can't I?
And it isn't a story issue, sorry BioWare.
I *might* really take issue with the fact that Merrill could destroy her clan (or cause me to have to fight and kill them all) or that Isabela might be comfortable with being responsible for the Qunari war and the slaughter of not just the grand cleric and a handful of chantry sisters like Anders, but many innocent folk of Kirkwall and many Qunari and she isn't even doing it for any (misguided) noble reason :/
In fact Fenris out of all those four is the least dangerous potentially, and from a purely logical point of view, the one we have less reason to kill... all he wants is freedom and a bit of revenge on Danarius and co. Whatever his views on mages, he isn't looking to start a war against them.
#43
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 08:00
Bathead
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That's not even remotely true.gatorboy128 wrote...
2) This game is SO gay, and I'm a gay guy. You've got the four love interests who can be gay if you want them to be - you've got that funky prostitute from the Blooming Rose - and there are some other references where I eventually stopped and said - "Wow, Kirkwall is down with the gayness."
I agree completely. You almost cannot play the game without having gay sex at some point.
#44
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 08:28
Gamer Ftw
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I love both fenris and Anders but hey broody damaged guys are my thing.
#45
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 08:53
sassperella
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This is not a gay issue..... it's whether or not you like the guys in the game. Female players get the same options as you.
Personally I like them both, and yes they're angsty, but what can I say I like a bit of drama lol.
Making a normal person in a larger than life universe can make them bland and uninteresting so I think they made them all a bit exaggerated. Maybe they could have made a more normal romance option but whoever is romanceable there will be people that disagree with them, so it's a really hard thing to do and impossible to please everyone. They tried really hard to please as many people as possible in this game with the romances.
Personally I like them both, and yes they're angsty, but what can I say I like a bit of drama lol.
Making a normal person in a larger than life universe can make them bland and uninteresting so I think they made them all a bit exaggerated. Maybe they could have made a more normal romance option but whoever is romanceable there will be people that disagree with them, so it's a really hard thing to do and impossible to please everyone. They tried really hard to please as many people as possible in this game with the romances.
Modifié par sassperella, 21 mars 2011 - 08:54 .
#46
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 10:17
Ixiel
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Wow, a lot of people have some pretty intense feelings about this topic. The original post was intended to offer a bit of a chuckle, and I'm glad some people grasped that. It's sort of unfortunate to see how many people commented without reading or taking the time to understand the point of the post however.
The serious point of the post was to comment on how relationships have evolved between DAO and DA2 (which have been unique based on gender and sexual preference). Specific focus was made regarding the gay romantic options, because those are the options I have experience with. I never said, “God, look at all those straight people and lesbians basking in the bliss of fuzzy and functional”.
I happen to agree with many of your points.
1. This is not just a gay issue
2. Part of choosing between the lessor of many evils added to the game's complexity
3. No game will ever cater to every player who logs in.
As stated in the OP, I look forward to how relationships will evolve in DA3. I hope they will use the opportunity to create romance options for people who enjoy something a bit more healthy. Think of how sad it will be when you put all that work into an enjoyable romance, just to have your love interest ritualistically dropped into a pit of angry Honey Badgers. Thanks for sharing your experiences and points of view.
The serious point of the post was to comment on how relationships have evolved between DAO and DA2 (which have been unique based on gender and sexual preference). Specific focus was made regarding the gay romantic options, because those are the options I have experience with. I never said, “God, look at all those straight people and lesbians basking in the bliss of fuzzy and functional”.
I happen to agree with many of your points.
1. This is not just a gay issue
2. Part of choosing between the lessor of many evils added to the game's complexity
3. No game will ever cater to every player who logs in.
As stated in the OP, I look forward to how relationships will evolve in DA3. I hope they will use the opportunity to create romance options for people who enjoy something a bit more healthy. Think of how sad it will be when you put all that work into an enjoyable romance, just to have your love interest ritualistically dropped into a pit of angry Honey Badgers. Thanks for sharing your experiences and points of view.
#47
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 10:38
SteelViper266
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StarFireLiz wrote...
Straight guys and lesbians would have issues with the females I would think. There's Isabella who's just a giant disease carrying uterus or merril who has the emotional comprehension of a five year old...
I couldn't agree more...Isabella is totally disgusting mouthwashing and morals couldn't clean her up...just a trashy ho with attitude. Romance is outta the question. Just the thought of her funk makes me wanna hurl.
#48
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 11:07
DeaHamlet
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Okay, you can pretty much get rid of ALL romances.
You can kill Anders directly, you can get rid of him before that, he threatens to leave at some points if you don't help him. You can also kill him on the templar side during battle.
You can kill Fenris in battle if you side with the mages. You can let him be taken away by Danarius. You can even never pick him up.
You can let Isabela be taken by the Qun. Worse than death from what I heard in banter (oh Fenris, you are so informative!). You can choose never to pick her up. She can leave you for good once she gets her book. Plenty of ways to get rid of her.
You can kill Merrill in battle if you side with the templars. I don't know if she ever threatens to leave, I have never refused to do her missions.
You can kill Anders directly, you can get rid of him before that, he threatens to leave at some points if you don't help him. You can also kill him on the templar side during battle.
You can kill Fenris in battle if you side with the mages. You can let him be taken away by Danarius. You can even never pick him up.
You can let Isabela be taken by the Qun. Worse than death from what I heard in banter (oh Fenris, you are so informative!). You can choose never to pick her up. She can leave you for good once she gets her book. Plenty of ways to get rid of her.
You can kill Merrill in battle if you side with the templars. I don't know if she ever threatens to leave, I have never refused to do her missions.
#49
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 11:08
Taura-Tierno
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Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Taura-Tierno wrote...
I felt that the Fenris romance was no just "flirt once or twice" and then sex. I guess it might've been because it happens over two Acts, which is 3 years ... but there was a lot of other talks, too.
Certainly, but those talks are part of the friendship/rivalry path that you could access without romancing at all, right? The friendship/rivalry stuff is really well done, and I have to commend the writers on it. It's convincing and it's nice how you can take completely opposite directions with a character but still feel like it was a natural, organic outcome. It sure beats the gift spamming and one-sidedness of DA:O.
But the romances themselves amount to a few dialogue lines and a single scene, outside friendship/romance. That's my problem. With the friendship/rivalry stuff as context then sure, you can see how people depend on each other, but it's not romance as much as "trusted friends ---> love" Something's skipped there!
I mean, maybe they did that on purpose for fanfic writers to fill in what happened between Acts I and II.
Oh, I definitely wouldn't have minded more romance dialogues. It would've been great. But since the friendship/rivalries were done so well, I think the romance dialogues that did exist were "sufficient". But more would've been better, of course ...
#50
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 01:27
Kilshrek
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If you feel that way about the gay relationships, at least be aware that the two women you can have relationships with are :
1) A completely self serving woman who belatedly realised her mistake, and cost the city it's viscount and by extension caused an all out war between Templars and mages.
2) A relatively innocent (to the ways of the world) girl who would have given you (arguably) a normal romance were she not a blood mage and unhealthily obsessed with restoring a demonic mirror. (And has no hesitation of 'sacrificing' herself to achieve that goal, despite being all 'lovey' with Hawke).
You take what you get, eh?
1) A completely self serving woman who belatedly realised her mistake, and cost the city it's viscount and by extension caused an all out war between Templars and mages.
2) A relatively innocent (to the ways of the world) girl who would have given you (arguably) a normal romance were she not a blood mage and unhealthily obsessed with restoring a demonic mirror. (And has no hesitation of 'sacrificing' herself to achieve that goal, despite being all 'lovey' with Hawke).
You take what you get, eh?
