59 réponses à ce sujet

[MColes]

No one of the Qunari choose their professions. Under the Qun all have purpose. The Tamassrans raise all the children, educate them and evaluate them. Qunari are assigned their roles when they are 12. Your role, is your existence. You are of Qun, or you are nothing.

[Silveryne]

Vandicus wrote...

Silveryne wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
 The seerabas nods and the qunari allows it. Then he speaks. Let's not be overly dramatic about how enslaved they are - the one seerabas we're presented with wants to live the way he does.

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

Except it's not like cultists. It's a different culture. Cultural relativism, ya dig?

Calling indoctrination culture doesn't make it any less indoctrination. A good example is North Korea's program of indoctrination. Do you view worshipping the Great Leader as culture?

Unfortunately, it presently is.

Just because we Westerners don't like something doesn't make it indoctrination. We tend to think of our values as being core and universal, but they're not.

Now, this discussion is getting dangerously close to breaking the forum's "No discussing politics!" rules, so I suggest that we turn the topic back to Dragon Age 2.

[Vandicus]

Silveryne wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Silveryne wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
 The seerabas nods and the qunari allows it. Then he speaks. Let's not be overly dramatic about how enslaved they are - the one seerabas we're presented with wants to live the way he does.

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

Except it's not like cultists. It's a different culture. Cultural relativism, ya dig?

Calling indoctrination culture doesn't make it any less indoctrination. A good example is North Korea's program of indoctrination. Do you view worshipping the Great Leader as culture?

Unfortunately, it presently is.

Just because we Westerners don't like something doesn't make it indoctrination. We tend to think of our values as being core and universal, but they're not.

Now, this discussion is getting dangerously close to breaking the forum's "No discussing politics!" rules, so I suggest that we turn the topic back to Dragon Age 2.

Indoctrination doesn't have to do with the fact that they are taught something that we may or may not believe is false, its that they're not supposed to question it. I don't call what the Qunari do indoctrination because I disagree with them, I call it indoctrination because they demand obedience and belief in it.

From wikipedia, as unreliable as that can be:
It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.

[MColes]

They don't demand it. It is, or isn't. You don't quite get the Qunari.

[Vandicus]

MColes wrote...

They don't demand it. It is, or isn't. You don't quite get the Qunari.

I don't quite get a lot about the Qunari(and I'm highly aware of this), but it seems pretty clear that if they wage wars of religious conversion and demand conversion of non-Qunari under their rule, and hunt down and kill those who choose to leave the Qun, that belief in the Qun is demanded.

[Dokarqt]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

EDIT: Don't mean to start an argument over politics, it's simply food for thought. We are all "willing slaves".

Modifié par Dokarqt, 20 mars 2011 - 08:13 .

[allankles]

Yeah he doesn't. The Qunari do examine their beliefs, continually it's part of their culture. They examine their beliefs and then measure them or test them against those of the other cultures, and so far they've found foreign cultures and beliefs wanting.

The Qun is an attempt at a near utopian ideal in an imperfect world, each Qun measures and questions his role and either chooses freedom in certainty or freedom in uncertainty and likely death. Think Pluto's Republic without the bs superstition and more honesty.

It's harsh but it also allows for freedom of thought if not freedom to dwell among the Qun after deviating from duty.

[Vandicus]

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

[Vandicus]

allankles wrote...

 The Qunari do examine their beliefs, continually it's part of their culture.

Examples please.

[allankles]

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

Society isn't indoctrinated precisely but it is certainly influenced along certain rigid lines. Think of the problems a lot of utopian thinkers had with implementing certain aspects of their visions in rl? Think of the fear and antagonism something as simple as universal health care engendered in our own country. Think of societies tendency for war. It seems that along the way, we're unable to break free from the self defeating cycles of our ancestors. So society (if not indoctrinated) is being profoundly influenced along certain tracks that we sometimes don't even notice.

[Vandicus]

allankles wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

Society isn't indoctrinated precisely but it is certainly influenced along certain rigid lines. Think of the problems a lot of utopian thinkers had with implementing certain aspects of their visions in rl? Think of the fear and antagonism something as simple as universal health care engendered in our own country. Think of societies tendency for war. It seems that along the way, we're unable to break free from the self defeating cycles of our ancestors. So society (if not indoctrinated) is being profoundly influenced along certain tracks that we sometimes don't even notice.

Specifics would be nice. BTW I'm an American against NHC, but I really think we should avoid this devolving into a political debate.

[Dokarqt]

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

I used the term "indoctrinated" loosely, I was simply referring to how societal discourses (to get all Foucault on you temporarily) influence our epistemological view of the world.

[allankles]

Vandicus wrote...

allankles wrote...

 The Qunari do examine their beliefs, continually it's part of their culture.

Examples please.

Examination by comparative study. There's plenty of evidence that the Qunari measure and compare their own belief systems and society with those of other cultures.

They are hardly perfect but their actions are informed by philosophical reasoning and not blind zealotry. Remember each Qunari is on average more book smart and educated than the average Thedan.

[vigna]

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

Evolution is not  a fact..it is a theory. The big bang is also a theory....yet we are indoctrinated to believe them without question.
While I highly doubt the earth is only 8,000 years old-- western scientists explain that mankind is millions of years old going back through our ancestors and billions of years old as a planet.
We take all these things for granted, we are indoctrinated to believe them. Any of these could very easily be wrong.
Just becasue  we learn something in a book does not mean it is true. Now, it is harder  to unlearn them. If everyone is taught this--it must be true, yes?
That is indoctrination......the same would be true for people believing in the creation myth or that we were seeded by space aliens.

[Vandicus]

allankles wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

allankles wrote...

 The Qunari do examine their beliefs, continually it's part of their culture.

Examples please.

Examination by comparative study. There's plenty of evidence that the Qunari measure and compare their own belief systems and society with those of other cultures.

They are hardly perfect but their actions are informed by philosophical reasoning and not blind zealotry. Remember each Qunari is on average more book smart and educated than the average Thedan.

Ah well. I say those examples don't exist. Screenshots or they don't exist.

[Silveryne]

Vandicus wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't have to do with the fact that they are taught something that we may or may not believe is false, its that they're not supposed to question it. I don't call what the Qunari do indoctrination because I disagree with them, I call it indoctrination because they demand obedience and belief in it.

From wikipedia, as unreliable as that can be:
It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.

Quick, do me a favor any apply that to your own background! Including religion, politics, education, et cetera! Did you question the patriotic stuff, the religious stuff, et cetera when you were growing up that they presumably inserted into your background? When you were in first, second, third, fourth grade?

It's the difference between someone who has been raised their entire life a particular way showing distress when the core values and principles of their culture have been violated (as Sarabaas did in the game), and someone who just randomly joined a cult because they were looking to belong being told to drink the kool-aid.

The Qun is tied to the culture of the Qunari, and is not an indoctrination. Full stop. It's not a cult that people join out of a desire to belong or be a part of something greater, it is a religion that is irrevocably tied to a culture, which has influenced or established traditions, philosophy, and a way of life. If you want a real world parallel, think about everything that Christianity has done to the West. Although... there is an alarming and growing desire in the West to believe that some of the Christian values and traditions that Western culture has absorbed are "natural".

Political scientists (surprise! guess what viewpoint I've been arguing this from!) here in the west have a field day with this because it is such a murky ground, and it's generally agreed that applying your own culture to someone else's is a bad thing. There are, for example, cultures that value strong leaders because they historically have had strong leaders and like to have a sense of direction and guidance.

What Sarabaas did in the game is unfathomable to Westerners who believe that everyone should be free, liberty is important, self-preservation is great. To Sarabaas, it was necessary and the only course of action he could have taken under the Qun. To have done otherwise would have caused him emotional distress, because he genuinely believed in the values and tradtions of the Qun.

Look, I really don't mind the debate but I do mind potentially getting a ban or something for doing it over EA/Bioware's boards; there's a "no political discourse" rule. If you want to debate, please take it over private messages with me. I really want to be able to continue to post on these boards if I fancy. Thanks.

[DanteCousland]

Shanedan Blothulfur you are clearly well versed in the ways of the Qun you are certainly Basvaarad.
Anaan esaam Qun

[Vandicus]

vigna wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

Evolution is not  a fact..it is a theory. The big bang is also a theory....yet we are indoctrinated to believe them without question.
While I highly doubt the earth is only 8,000 years old-- western scientists explain that mankind is millions of years old going back through our ancestors and billions of years old as a planet.
We take all these things for granted, we are indoctrinated to believe them. Any of these could very easily be wrong.
Just becasue  we learn something in a book does not mean it is true. Now, it is harder  to unlearn them. If everyone is taught this--it must be true, yes?
That is indoctrination......the same would be true for people believing in the creation myth or that we were seeded by space aliens.

Now this is a criticism of the school system. However, the difference between propaganda and indoctrination is that propaganda encourages one to believe something, indoctrination demands it and punishes transgressors, such as the Tal Vashoth being hunted down in the case of the Qunari.

The main point that I've been trying to make about the Qunari is that they enforce a form of clear systemic indoctrination, which demands belief in the Qun.

[Vandicus]

Silveryne wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't have to do with the fact that they are taught something that we may or may not believe is false, its that they're not supposed to question it. I don't call what the Qunari do indoctrination because I disagree with them, I call it indoctrination because they demand obedience and belief in it.

From wikipedia, as unreliable as that can be:
It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.

Quick, do me a favor any apply that to your own background! Including religion, politics, education, et cetera! Did you question the patriotic stuff, the religious stuff, et cetera when you were growing up that they presumably inserted into your background? When you were in first, second, third, fourth grade?

It's the difference between someone who has been raised their entire life a particular way showing distress when the core values and principles of their culture have been violated (as Sarabaas did in the game), and someone who just randomly joined a cult because they were looking to belong being told to drink the kool-aid.

The Qun is tied to the culture of the Qunari, and is not an indoctrination. Full stop. It's not a cult that people join out of a desire to belong or be a part of something greater, it is a religion that is irrevocably tied to a culture, which has influenced or established traditions, philosophy, and a way of life. If you want a real world parallel, think about everything that Christianity has done to the West. Although... there is an alarming and growing desire in the West to believe that some of the Christian values and traditions that Western culture has absorbed are "natural".

Political scientists (surprise! guess what viewpoint I've been arguing this from!) here in the west have a field day with this because it is such a murky ground, and it's generally agreed that applying your own culture to someone else's is a bad thing. There are, for example, cultures that value strong leaders because they historically have had strong leaders and like to have a sense of direction and guidance.

What Sarabaas did in the game is unfathomable to Westerners who believe that everyone should be free, liberty is important, self-preservation is great. To Sarabaas, it was necessary and the only course of action he could have taken under the Qun. To have done otherwise would have caused him emotional distress, because he genuinely believed in the values and tradtions of the Qun.

Look, I really don't mind the debate but I do mind potentially getting a ban or something for doing it over EA/Bioware's boards; there's a "no political discourse" rule. If you want to debate, please take it over private messages with me. I really want to be able to continue to post on these boards if I fancy. Thanks.

Sure thing. I was born in liberal California, but turned to the libertarian philosophies of Rand and Hayek, I'm a self described libertarian. The education system is horrible in California imo, and many of the history books need to be heavily audited. I was born a Catholic but don't go to church and consider myself something of a deist. Do I consider myself all that patriotic? No, I'm loyal to ideals, not exactly a country.

The reason I call it indoctrination is because they kill those who disobey and otherwise punish any questioning. Thats what indoctrination is. Again, propaganda is something else.

[DanteCousland]

Beleif hints at something not existing, the Qun exists. The Qun is correct and is for the greater good.

[allankles]

Vandicus wrote...

allankles wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

Society isn't indoctrinated precisely but it is certainly influenced along certain rigid lines. Think of the problems a lot of utopian thinkers had with implementing certain aspects of their visions in rl? Think of the fear and antagonism something as simple as universal health care engendered in our own country. Think of societies tendency for war. It seems that along the way, we're unable to break free from the self defeating cycles of our ancestors. So society (if not indoctrinated) is being profoundly influenced along certain tracks that we sometimes don't even notice.

Specifics would be nice. BTW I'm an American against NHC, but I really think we should avoid this devolving into a political debate.

What specifics? Every generation of society is conditioned to accept or tolerate the present status quo, only remarkable individuals ever think to break or change the status quo into more positive directions. Society needed a Martin Luther King to have a civil rights movement, if people were not so rigid in their ways, the civil rights amendements wouldn't have needed a minority civil leader to make passionate rallies and appeals, they would have been enacted years ago by the government with minimum fuss.

You don't want political debate yet mention your NHC disapproval?

[Vandicus]

allankles wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

allankles wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

Society isn't indoctrinated precisely but it is certainly influenced along certain rigid lines. Think of the problems a lot of utopian thinkers had with implementing certain aspects of their visions in rl? Think of the fear and antagonism something as simple as universal health care engendered in our own country. Think of societies tendency for war. It seems that along the way, we're unable to break free from the self defeating cycles of our ancestors. So society (if not indoctrinated) is being profoundly influenced along certain tracks that we sometimes don't even notice.

Specifics would be nice. BTW I'm an American against NHC, but I really think we should avoid this devolving into a political debate.

What specifics? Every generation of society is conditioned to accept or tolerate the present status quo, only remarkable individuals ever think to break or change the status quo into more positive directions. Society needed a Martin Luther King to have a civil rights movement, if people were not so rigid in their ways, the civil rights amendements wouldn't have needed a minority civil leader to make passionate rallies and appeals, they would have been enacted years ago by the government with minimum fuss.

You don't want political debate yet mention your NHC disapproval?

I mentioned NHC disapproval because you implicity insulted those who didn't agree with it.

Conditioning is not the same as systemic indoctrination. This thread is supposed to be about the Qunari. Do they use systemic indoctrination, irrelevant to beliefs about real life, yes or no?

*EDIT

Also, I was hoping for specifics about questioning the Qun being part of the Qun, as you claim it was.

Modifié par Vandicus, 20 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[vigna]

Cookies are good. The Qun is good. The Qun accepts cookies as good.

Cookies are.

[DanteCousland]

Vigna your truly enlightnened philosophical learnings surely make you a basalit-an.

[allankles]

Vandicus wrote...

allankles wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

allankles wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Because you're indoctrinated from birth to think nothing else. It's very much the same in real life cultists.
To speak out against authority is the ultimate heresy. They are willing slaves. Nothing more.

What about speaking out against democracy? Who says that is by necessity the only right way to live? We are all indoctrinated.

I'm unsure of your point here. Many people speak out against democracy on a daily basis, and I've made quite a few criticisms of what I view to be its flaws irl. How do you qualify the statement that we are all indoctrinated?

Society isn't indoctrinated precisely but it is certainly influenced along certain rigid lines. Think of the problems a lot of utopian thinkers had with implementing certain aspects of their visions in rl? Think of the fear and antagonism something as simple as universal health care engendered in our own country. Think of societies tendency for war. It seems that along the way, we're unable to break free from the self defeating cycles of our ancestors. So society (if not indoctrinated) is being profoundly influenced along certain tracks that we sometimes don't even notice.

Specifics would be nice. BTW I'm an American against NHC, but I really think we should avoid this devolving into a political debate.

What specifics? Every generation of society is conditioned to accept or tolerate the present status quo, only remarkable individuals ever think to break or change the status quo into more positive directions. Society needed a Martin Luther King to have a civil rights movement, if people were not so rigid in their ways, the civil rights amendements wouldn't have needed a minority civil leader to make passionate rallies and appeals, they would have been enacted years ago by the government with minimum fuss.

You don't want political debate yet mention your NHC disapproval?

I mentioned NHC disapproval because you implicity insulted those who didn't agree with it.

Conditioning is not the same as systemic indoctrination. This thread is supposed to be about the Qunari. Do they use systemic indoctrination, irrelevant to beliefs about real life, yes or no?

*EDIT

Also, I was hoping for specifics about questioning the Qun being part of the Qun, as you claim it was.

My comment on NHC wasn't an insult, I brought them up as they represented a recent event where positive change was resisted by a large portion of the society.

The Arishok made very many comparisons between the supposedly liberal society of Kirkwall and his own Qun. In fact Hawke can question him on the specifics and question his thinking/reasoning. The Arishok has no problem explaining his viewpoint. It obviously something every Qunari thinks about, especially in the foreign lands of Thedas. Some certainly would follow it blindly, just like in every society there are the blind and the more thoughtful. The Sarebaas would also qualify as among the more thoughtful.