832 réponses à ce sujet

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He's talking about creative stagnation, guys. If you make the same game over and over again only the same people will buy it. This isn't anything new from Bioware, I can't think of a single game they've made that wasn't significantly different in a number of ways from its predecessor. Each time some fans jumped ship, and others jumped on. That approach is what got them where they are, not making (insert game here that is your personal favorite). It's one thing to say they made the wrong calls, but it's something else entirely to say that that they shouldn't make them and just keep putting out the same game - which is all Mike Laidlaw says they aren't going to do. Other games, like Madden from EA Sports for example are pretty much the same game year in and year out, and they're criticized for that.

It seems in this industry you're damned for taking risks and damned for not taking them. I think all he's saying is he'd rather be damned for taking them. I can respect that. Doesn't mean I'm going to like every change made, or they'll always hit the mark, but it's not some grand conspiracy or personal attack on vague veteran/hardcore/loyal fans.

Note that I say nothing about the relative quality of DA2 in this post. Only that I think that this thread misrepresents his position.

you used too much rational thought in one post. it will slip right behind people's ears.

[shyzny]

man that is the worst thing I have ever read. Dear Laidlaw, I did not play a single RPG until i was in College. I grew up playing nothing but sports games practically (although I played Deus Ex back when it came out but i just thought of it as a shooter that was extra special lol). The first RPG I actually played was TES III Morrowind, and I don't think there was all that much about that game that was streamlined? People try different games and end up playing mostly the types they like. MMO's keep finding new audiences. Why don't you see other genre's worrying about this?

[AllThatJazz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Further translation: "Teaching CoD kiddies how to work stats requires reading and maths and is too hard, screw it, just press A and something awesome happens! Buy Dragon Age 2!"

No that is an incorrect translation, imo.

That is what he is saying in the interview(well not near as exagerated as you are taking it but still, I'll play along).  What he is actually meaning is that he wants to get them to play his games somehow.  And the way you are going to do that is make it more aggressive/combat oriented if you want to take it in that direction.  

After WoW, I don't think anyone is actually dumb enough to think people don't get how stats work.  I think that was just ML's way of saying, "we want to move a little farther over to that type of game in hopes of pulling them in by adjusting".

That would be my take on it.

This is what Bioware are not understanding. It's not that the mechanics are complicated people are just not interested in their story telling.
Final Fantasy more or less proves it, FF tells you a story and it sells well, mechanically , it's quite complex.
Same with WoW you need to know how to build a character, you don't sit through dialogue just to kill stuff.

In Dragon Age (both games) you need to know that cunning and dexterity  are the best stats for rogues, that willpower is a decent cross-class stat etc. Sure you get hints, but I remember similar hints on the Baldur's Gate character creation screen 'Strength is the most important attribute for fighters, Barbarians and Paladins' etc. I don't see why it's such a dreadful thing to give people a taste of the action first so they can judge for themselves whether they might like playing a particular class before committing. Though to be fair, a 'skip prologue' option that jumps you straight to character creation might be nice for subsequent playthroughs. I always skip the prologue in NWN2.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

dheer wrote...

His use of "evolve" really does bother me. Evolution is not perfect. There are many mutations that hurt or kill something. Just because he thinks he's "evolving" rpgs doesn't mean the direction he took is the right one.

that's what he said...

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 20 mars 2011 - 10:40 .

[Vandarr1]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Meltemph wrote...
There are tons of people who are horrible at making effecient D&D builds, but they still enjoy the game. 

That's great, I'm glad they enjoy it.

When D&D is dumbed down to cater to them, let me know.

it already has been, its called everything after the 2nd edition ruleset
.Sorry couldnt resist lol.

[shyzny]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He's talking about creative stagnation, guys. If you make the same game over and over again only the same people will buy it. This isn't anything new from Bioware, I can't think of a single game they've made that wasn't significantly different in a number of ways from its predecessor. Each time some fans jumped ship, and others jumped on. That approach is what got them where they are, not making (insert game here that is your personal favorite). It's one thing to say they made the wrong calls, but it's something else entirely to say that that they shouldn't make them and just keep putting out the same game - which is all Mike Laidlaw says they aren't going to do. Other games, like Madden from EA Sports for example are pretty much the same game year in and year out, and they're criticized for that.

It seems in this industry you're damned for taking risks and damned for not taking them. I think all he's saying is he'd rather be damned for taking them. I can respect that. Doesn't mean I'm going to like every change made, or they'll always hit the mark, but it's not some grand conspiracy or personal attack on vague veteran/hardcore/loyal fans.

Note that I say nothing about the relative quality of DA2 in this post. Only that I think that this thread misrepresents his position.

you used too much rational thought in one post. it will slip right behind people's ears.

true but they had been doing this as different games altogether until recently also (for the most part).  now we have their next game, another sequel on the way.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Alex109222 wrote...

Insom wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Well New Vegas sold 5 million copies already. It has a ton more depth than DA2 that's for sure.

New Vegas was awesome. Has alot of heart when Obsidian is behind it. And there is no company like EA brething down it's neck to appeal to the larger audiance, what Obsidian did was appeal to the olf Fallout and Fallout 2 audiance, and it worked, lots are calling it Fallout 3: New Vegas.

you think bethesda fans who loved fallout 3 didn't account for the success of the game?

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Vandarr1 wrote...
it already has been, its called everything after the 2nd edition ruleset
.Sorry couldnt resist lol.

I KNEW somebody was going to pull that out.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

shyzny wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He's talking about creative stagnation, guys. If you make the same game over and over again only the same people will buy it. This isn't anything new from Bioware, I can't think of a single game they've made that wasn't significantly different in a number of ways from its predecessor. Each time some fans jumped ship, and others jumped on. That approach is what got them where they are, not making (insert game here that is your personal favorite). It's one thing to say they made the wrong calls, but it's something else entirely to say that that they shouldn't make them and just keep putting out the same game - which is all Mike Laidlaw says they aren't going to do. Other games, like Madden from EA Sports for example are pretty much the same game year in and year out, and they're criticized for that.

It seems in this industry you're damned for taking risks and damned for not taking them. I think all he's saying is he'd rather be damned for taking them. I can respect that. Doesn't mean I'm going to like every change made, or they'll always hit the mark, but it's not some grand conspiracy or personal attack on vague veteran/hardcore/loyal fans.

Note that I say nothing about the relative quality of DA2 in this post. Only that I think that this thread misrepresents his position.

you used too much rational thought in one post. it will slip right behind people's ears.

true but they had been doing this as different games altogether until recently also (for the most part).  now we have their next game, another sequel on the way.

fair point i guess. i think that's the major cause of dissent ( among dragon age fans ).

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 20 mars 2011 - 10:43 .

[Sandmanifest]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

I want the characters statistics to be extremely numerous. I want a 10 page character sheet.  I want to get utterly lost in a deep unforgiving dungeon and have to reload because I thought I could wing it and not make a map of my progress or have to reload to a previous save because I stupidly entered that dungeon without enough supplies. I want to be able to have enough choices for making a character that I can (if I choose) make a build that can actually fail. I want some strategy to be present in all aspects of character development. I don't think everyone should be able to 'win the game'.  <---------------There will never be games like this again probably.

You made me tear up a little irl.

[AkiKishi]

[quote]AllThatJazz wrote...

This is what Bioware are not understanding. It's not that the mechanics are complicated people are just not interested in their story telling.
Final Fantasy more or less proves it, FF tells you a story and it sells well, mechanically , it's quite complex.
Same with WoW you need to know how to build a character, you don't sit through dialogue just to kill stuff.

[/quote]

In Dragon Age (both games) you need to know that cunning and dexterity  are the best stats for rogues, that willpower is a decent cross-class stat etc. Sure you get hints, but I remember similar hints on the Baldur's Gate character creation screen 'Strength is the most important attribute for fighters, Barbarians and Paladins' etc. I don't see why it's such a dreadful thing to give people a taste of the action first so they can judge for themselves whether they might like playing a particular class before committing. Though to be fair, a 'skip prologue' option that jumps you straight to character creation might be nice for subsequent playthroughs. I always skip the prologue in NWN2.

[/quote]

Whenever I show RPGs to friends who play FPS it goes something like this.

"What do I do to kill stuff" ? 
"That's boring can I skip it" ? 

When I showed one friend FFXIII he skipped all the scenes, you can do it with one click. In DA2 he was trying to do the same (bless) but was only forwarding to the next part of the conversation, he hated that.

I'm not holding him up as typical or anything, but he had no problems with the mechanics, like stats and skills. Just total lack of interest in anything else.

[Meltemph]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Further translation: "Teaching CoD kiddies how to work stats requires reading and maths and is too hard, screw it, just press A and something awesome happens! Buy Dragon Age 2!"

No that is an incorrect translation, imo.

That is what he is saying in the interview(well not near as exagerated as you are taking it but still, I'll play along).  What he is actually meaning is that he wants to get them to play his games somehow.  And the way you are going to do that is make it more aggressive/combat oriented if you want to take it in that direction.  

After WoW, I don't think anyone is actually dumb enough to think people don't get how stats work.  I think that was just ML's way of saying, "we want to move a little farther over to that type of game in hopes of pulling them in by adjusting".

That would be my take on it.

This is what Bioware are not understanding. It's not that the mechanics are complicated people are just not interested in their story telling.
Final Fantasy more or less proves it, FF tells you a story and it sells well, mechanically , it's quite complex.
Same with WoW you need to know how to build a character, you don't sit through dialogue just to kill stuff.

I disagree, I don't thikn their stories have anything to do with it, I think the stories/world/lore BW tells are great.  I think it is completely the combat/graphics/world design and the lack of a lot of loot.  

JRPG's are typically graphically beutiful, combat is normally considered very fun(by its fans), and the side quests are some of the biggest attractions.  But even the JRPG's are dying and FFXIII for being on 2 systems, didnt do all that great, specially for how long it took to come out.  We don't know how good it did though, because Japanese companies are incredibly secret with stuff like this.

Old school CRPG's and even DA2(I'm guessing it will sell a little better then DAO but at most 4.5mil units), because it resembles it to much, just isnt near as popular as it was when the gaming market was smaller.  Also, the grpahics in DA series... Well even by Xbox360/PS3 standards(hell even by ME2 standards) are sub par.  Also, Bioware has never been a loot heavy game and even the little bit of loot bioware games do have is very important even to the diehards of the old CRPG's and nowadays, the biggest/best RPG's(and by best/biggest I mean critically, personally it is subjective)have a lot of loot.

Modifié par Meltemph, 20 mars 2011 - 10:47 .

[Meltemph]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Meltemph wrote...
There are tons of people who are horrible at making effecient D&D builds, but they still enjoy the game. 

That's great, I'm glad they enjoy it.

When D&D is dumbed down to cater to them, let me know.

They already did.

[Medhia Nox]

@Vice-Admiral von Titsling - they did, it's called 4th Edition.

@AllThatJazz - I understand your position. I'm glad you like the game. Too many people think that because someone criticizes the game that it must mean they think the people that enjoy it are fools. For myself - that isn't the case.

A lot of it has to do with what I feel I was purchasing vs. what I feel I was getting. If I had been told this was a storytelling game ((a game where the story is told to me - like Bioshock (an excellent piece of gaming btw)) - I would have seen it differently and I think I might have enjoyed it more. I have certain expectations out of an RPG - and I feel those expectations were not met adequately.

[abaris]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Really, people, hold back  a second with all that "Laidlaw is an idiot" etc.
Just take a moment and consider the time they had to develop this. I'm sure there are many things DA2 got somewhat wrong to get such a bad reception from so many. But I think we should start with the fact that it's a rush job. What do you think it feels like to become the head of a rush job? Like Laidlaw became when Knowles so wisely decide that he didn't want to have anything to do with this. It's also clear from Knowles blog that the decidion to strip a lot of choices, freedom and gameplay away was also done before. The stack of cards were fixed from the beginning of this. Give Laidlaw some credit for pulling it off as well as he did instead.

And I don't think for a minute, he's speaking his own mind, but what the PR departments of the powers that be allow and want him to say. Knowles is in a more convenient position, since he already quite his job.

In any case, "streamlining", "evolving" are pure corporate speech. The only thing missing is "being excited" about everything. If Orwell would write his 1984 again, he probably would exchange his newspeak for corporate speak. All these beautiful words without any actual meaning.

[AkiKishi]

Meltemph wrote...

I disagree, I don't thikn their stories have anything to do with it, I think the stories/world/lore BW tells are great.  I think it is completely the combat/graphics/world design and the lack of a lot of loot.  

JRPG's are typically graphically beutiful, combat is normally considered very fun(by its fans), and the side quests are some of the biggest attractions.  But even the JRPG's are dying and FFXIII for being on 2 systems, didnt do all that great, specially for how long it took to come out.  We don't know how good it did though, because Japanese companies are incredibly secret with stuff like this.

Old school CRPG's and even DA2(I'm guessing it will sell a little better then DAO but at most 4.5mil units), because it resembles it to much, just isnt near as popular as it was when the gaming market was smaller.  Also, the grpahics in DA series... Well even by Xbox360/PS3 standards(hell even by ME2 standards) are sub par.  Also, Bioware has never been a loot heavy game and even the little bit of loot bioware games do have is very important even to the diehards of the old CRPG's and nowadays, the biggest/best RPG's have a lot of loot.

We think they are great, it's probably why we play the games. However if people are not interested in that, well you can make the system as dumb as you like it's not going to matter if they are not interested in story or characters.

FFXIII sold around 6 million and has a XIII-2 coming out this winter. Probably the worst mistake for SquareEnix was trying to pander to a western audience.

Some "phat loot" would certainly help make the tedious combat less tedious if only for a decent reward.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 20 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[Sandmanifest]

Medhia Nox wrote...
.
@AllThatJazz - I understand your position. I'm glad you like the game. Too many people think that because someone criticizes the game that it must mean they think the people that enjoy it are fools. For myself - that isn't the case.

A lot of it has to do with what I feel I was purchasing vs. what I feel I was getting. If I had been told this was a storytelling game ((a game where the story is told to me - like Bioshock (an excellent piece of gaming btw)) - I would have seen it differently and I think I might have enjoyed it more. I have certain expectations out of an RPG - and I feel those expectations were not met adequately.

Perfect way of putting it.

[Rixxencaxx]

Mr Laidlaw's rant confirms that da2 was a fail.....he is upset cause people had bad reaction to the "evolution" of the genre....

[JabbaDaHutt30]

TwistedComplex wrote...

Vandarr1 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Brenus wrote...

And Bioware would have had an even larger and devoted fanbase if they had kept making games as good as BG2.

Wrong.  Where are the games similar to BG2 today?  How many do you see out there?

If, as you claim, there is a huge market for those games, companies would be all over it.  Yet they are not.  Because games like BG2 were great for their time... but now, in the market today...  Baldur's Gate 2 would suck.

absolutely not.a remake of BG2 with a graphics overhaul would still sell well

Would it sell well before or after the massive s***storm of people complaining that Bioware just rehashes games?

if it's with the same DnD system that games like Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights, I may not enjoy it as much. the writing may account for more enjoyment on my part but bringing back the DnD system won't make the game turn into 'Baldur's Gate 2'. All those things like plot, characters, quality and amout of quests they can do with a completely different system. Bioware doesn't have to take a step backwards, but if they do, that won't automatically make their games better.

[Moving808s]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


Definition of genre (courtesy of the M-W site):
1: a category of artistic, musical, or literary composition characterized by a particular style, form, or content


Nowhere in the actual definition of genre does it say anything about excluding anyone from appreciating a style of or form of gaming.

Okay, you didn't really prove anything here. The point is, when you have a style or category, there are always going to be people who say, "I like it" and those who say "I don't". You can't create a category that includes everyone. Perhaps "breathing" would be something like that, but it's not terribly fun.

Wait, there's an idea for DA3! DA3: Breathing. All you have to do is breathe, everyone can enjoy that right? We'll make millions!

[Meltemph]

However if people are not interested in that, well you can make the system as dumb as you like it's not going to matter if they are not interested in story or characters.

What, you think people are eating up Elder Scroll games for its plot? Come on now, be serious, who buys ES games for its plot? The plots are awful.

FFXIII sold around 6 million and has a XIII-2 coming out this winter. Probably the worst mistake for SquareEnix was trying to pander to a western audience.

Considering the dev cycle on FFXIII that isn't that great, imo... Plus, I thought FFXIII's story was quite bad, compared to any of the others. Also, FFXIII versus is moving hardcore into the action rpg thing.

[Moving808s]

TwistedComplex wrote...


ME2 was better than Origins

Just sayin'

That's your opinion, just sayin'. 

Modifié par Moving808s, 20 mars 2011 - 10:55 .

[TwistedComplex]

Does it make people feel smart when they mistake complexity for sophistication?

Cause it doesn't make you look smart... It makes you look dumb for not knowing the difference

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Meltemph wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Further translation: "Teaching CoD kiddies how to work stats requires reading and maths and is too hard, screw it, just press A and something awesome happens! Buy Dragon Age 2!"

No that is an incorrect translation, imo.

That is what he is saying in the interview(well not near as exagerated as you are taking it but still, I'll play along).  What he is actually meaning is that he wants to get them to play his games somehow.  And the way you are going to do that is make it more aggressive/combat oriented if you want to take it in that direction.  

After WoW, I don't think anyone is actually dumb enough to think people don't get how stats work.  I think that was just ML's way of saying, "we want to move a little farther over to that type of game in hopes of pulling them in by adjusting".

That would be my take on it.

This is what Bioware are not understanding. It's not that the mechanics are complicated people are just not interested in their story telling.
Final Fantasy more or less proves it, FF tells you a story and it sells well, mechanically , it's quite complex.
Same with WoW you need to know how to build a character, you don't sit through dialogue just to kill stuff.

I disagree, I don't thikn their stories have anything to do with it, I think the stories/world/lore BW tells are great.  I think it is completely the combat/graphics/world design and the lack of a lot of loot.  

JRPG's are typically graphically beutiful, combat is normally considered very fun(by its fans), and the side quests are some of the biggest attractions.  But even the JRPG's are dying and FFXIII for being on 2 systems, didnt do all that great, specially for how long it took to come out.  We don't know how good it did though, because Japanese companies are incredibly secret with stuff like this.

Old school CRPG's and even DA2(I'm guessing it will sell a little better then DAO but at most 4.5mil units), because it resembles it to much, just isnt near as popular as it was when the gaming market was smaller.  Also, the grpahics in DA series... Well even by Xbox360/PS3 standards(hell even by ME2 standards) are sub par.  Also, Bioware has never been a loot heavy game and even the little bit of loot bioware games do have is very important even to the diehards of the old CRPG's and nowadays, the biggest/best RPG's(and by best/biggest I mean critically, personally it is subjective)have a lot of loot.

uh... to say that people who buy bioware games are not interested in the story is presumptuous, to say the least. i don't think i've seen anyone on the internet who said he played and liked a bioware game but had no interest in the story...

[Meltemph]

Some "phat loot" would certainly help make the tedious combat less tedious if only for a decent reward.

Less tedious then DAO, but even still, name me a CRPG(old school) BW game that doesn't have tedious gameplay? I can think of 1 and that was KOTOR.