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1UP Mike Laidlaw Interview "genre death"


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#451
Brenus

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Soul Cool wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw: "We want to alienate our old audience and appeal to the CoD crowd."

No need to make a whole interview about this...

You are not special because you have bought a BioWare game. They are not obliged to make something you want to play, just as you are not obliged to buy something from them because they make it. Go buy stock if you want them to listen to you. (Unless you already own it, of course, and what are you doing here if you do? Go complain!)


But thats the only way that they are going to remain successful.

If bioware want to lose all their fans and get themselves flushed down the toilet by making crap games like DA2, then thats their own fault. 

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 12:30 .


#452
catullus20

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I think the problem with compromise is that they will end up making a game that both groups (casuals and hardcore rpg fans) will dislike.

In my mind its clear the money is with the casuals and that is what direction bioware probably will and should go (since its clearly about money and not much else), but in the process the chance of me ever buying another bioware game is slim to none.

they made their choice I made mine.  I think I will be surprised if they make as many sales on Dragon Age 3 since they already cashed in on 2.

I firmly believe that if you make a great game it will stand on its own merit and sell well, but if you cant make a great game then it probably is best just to cater to the casual adhd crowd and make some pretty epic trailers.

not to be overdramatic about it, but my disappointment is great.

if you enjoyed the game and the direction the series is going good for you, im not trying to ruin your fun, it definitely wasn't for me tho.

Modifié par catullus20, 21 mars 2011 - 12:33 .


#453
Brenus

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catullus20 wrote...

In my mind its clear the money is with the casuals 


Because WoW and DDO (as examples) are casual games are they now?

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 12:34 .


#454
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...
But thats the only way that they are going to remain successful.

By making games that people would like? I would assume so.

Brenus wrote...
If bioware want to lose all their fans and get themselves flushed down the toilet by making crap games like DA2, then thats their own fault.

DA 2 is not a crap game. It isn't a great game, either, but it's definitely not 'crap'. Mostly just average, which is not really all that surprising. Companies, just like people, aren't perfect all the time.

Also, I really wish people would get over the "But I was Expecting Jesus and the Holy Grail". The game is not the fairy tale deliverance/ascension of RPGs to ultimate perfection that I feel people were expecting, and it was never meant to be.

Modifié par Soul Cool, 21 mars 2011 - 12:39 .


#455
Brenus

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Hardly anyone likes DA2, and yes it is crap.

How about actually making games that people like such as Baldur's Gate and Morrowind? Now theres a great idea that would make a great and successful game if its done right.

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 12:40 .


#456
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...

Hardly anyone likes DA2, and yes it is crap.

When 80% is crap, your judgement is skewed. You should research more before you make a purchase if you're so ready to be disappointed.  That is, if you actually own the game.

Brenus wrote...
How about actually making games that people like such as Baldur's Gate and Morrowind?

Cliff Racers were the most annoying enemy ever. I really hated that game because of them.

Brenus wrote...
Now theres a great idea that would make a great and successful game if its done right.

How many times can you hit "Recycle, re-make, re-use" before people want something else?

#457
Dr. Impossible

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Soul Cool wrote...

Also, I really wish people would get over the "But I was Expecting Jesus and the Holy Grail". The game is not the fairy tale deliverance/ascension of RPGs to ultimate perfection that I feel people were expecting, and it was never meant to be.

I think people were expecting it to at least match the quality of the first game. Not an unreasonable expectation.

Soul Cool wrote...

When 80% is crap, your judgement is skewed.

Look at the user scores, not the professional ones.

Modifié par Dr. Impossible, 21 mars 2011 - 12:45 .


#458
Brenus

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Soul Cool wrote...

How many times can you hit "Recycle, re-make, re-use" before people want something else?


How many times has Baldurs Gate been remade? Oh right, absolutely none?

Why do so many people still play the game today? Because there isnt anything that compares or is as good as it being made.

You are completely clueless about gameplay. quality, and what people enjoy in RPGs, as it seems are the developers of such games. 

DA2 has solidly proven that when you dumb an RPG down this much, people will not like it.

#459
Soul Cool

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Dr. Impossible wrote...
I think people were expecting it to at least match the quality of the first game. Not an unreasonable expectation.

No, it isn't, but there should not be a "You're all miserable failures, go make me DA:O2" reactions because they failed to match their usual fantastic quality. Sometimes a great game company makes average games, there is no reason to be this offended by average.

Dr. Impossible wrote...
Look at the user scores, not the professional ones.

Why are professional opinions worth less?

#460
Brenus

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Why are professional opinions worth less?


Because they were paid to write good reviews.

#461
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...
How many times has Baldurs Gate been remade? Oh right, absolutely none?

Do they teach critical thinking skills where you live? "More of the same" eventually results in an unsatisfied populace. Just because it is liked does not make it sancrosanct, even though the wisdom of not fixing what isn't broken may apply.

Brenus wrote...
Why do so many people still play the game today? Because there isnt anything that compares or is as good as it being made.

If the game is so good, why not do what the Falcon 4.0 guys did?

Brenus wrote...
You are completely clueless about gameplay. quality, and what people enjoy in RPGs, as it seems are the developers of such games.

You are very bitter about this.

Brenus wrote...
DA2 has solidly proven that when you dumb an RPG down this much, people will not like it.

So far, it's proven to me that people have very unreasonable expectations and seem to be almost violently reactive to change in general.

Brenus wrote...
Because they were paid to write good reviews.

[citation needed]

Modifié par Soul Cool, 21 mars 2011 - 12:51 .


#462
Brenus

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People simply have standards set by previous games, and expect new games to meet the same standards or be better, but NOT become worse like DA2 has.

What exactly is unreasonable about not wanting dumber and worse games?

Soul Cool wrote...

Do they teach critical thinking skills where you live? "More of the same" eventually results in an unsatisfied populace. 


Your critical thinking is very obviously flawed if you think that is true. I really wonder why people still enjoy and keep on buying and supporting PC games that are similar and just as good as their predecessors? Such as Civ, Total War, Anno, TES, Diablo clones, Fallout series etc etc etc.

If something is working, and thousands if not millions of people are happy with and enjoying it, where is the sense in changing it only to make it worse?

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 12:57 .


#463
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...

People simply have standards set by previous games, and expect new games to meet the same standards or be better, but NOT become worse like DA2 has.

What exactly is unreasonable about not wanting dumber and worse games?

The reactions that I've seen seem to imply that BioWare is somehow a failure for producing one average game. The failure to meet that implicit trust that you place in a company to deliver a quality product regardless of circumstances should come as a small surprise, if a surprise at all.

#464
Brenus

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Soul Cool wrote...

Brenus wrote...

People simply have standards set by previous games, and expect new games to meet the same standards or be better, but NOT become worse like DA2 has.

What exactly is unreasonable about not wanting dumber and worse games?

The reactions that I've seen seem to imply that BioWare is somehow a failure for producing one average game. The failure to meet that implicit trust that you place in a company to deliver a quality product regardless of circumstances should come as a small surprise, if a surprise at all.



You misinterperate the reactions then dont you? People are worried that future games from Bioware are going to be just as bad, or worse than this one, and they dont want that to be the case, hence they are complaining.

And DA2 isnt average. Its well below average for an RPG, if not the worst one ever made on the PC.

#465
Terror_K

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I'm just going to repost something I wrote a few days ago, since it's easier than just pretty much repeating it in a slightly different manner:-

BioWare are trying too hard to appeal to a more mainstream audience and have this stupid obsession with streamlining to appeal to them lately and going too far in the process, overcompensating for the faults the prior game may have had or simply trying to make it more accessible to those who don't normally touch RPGs and/or who were put off by these factors in the original game(s). It happened with Mass Effect, and now it's happened with Dragon Age as well.

Rather than concentrating on what's best for the game and what is true to the original vision, they're too concerned about making it appeal to as many as possible. They want to have their cake and eat it too, and try and create these "perfect" hybrid half-cast affairs that attempt to appeal to the mainstream gamer while also trying to keep their old audience as well. And the problem is that it doesn't really work, at least not fully, because the very things they have to take away and mainstreamline from the game(s) to appeal to the mainstream gamer are often the very same things that much of their old audience love about the games in the first place. BioWare should be focusing on making the games as best as they can to suit what they are, not just making these methodical golems that lack heart because they're so clearly engineered to make money rather than crafted to be the best at what they are and should be.

This whole obsession BioWare has with "streamlining" has to stop, because they're not streamlining in the end, they're dumbing things down. They're taking away choice, complexity and variation in all these attempts to make it more accessible to players, and thus alienating much of their original, hardcore RPG fanbase in the process. It's not that streamlining is bad as such, but that they're defeating the purpose in what they're doing and simply oversimplifying to the point of making their games shallow, lacking and even insultingly juvenile and simple. The whole point of streamlining is to take away unnecessary complexity of an element while maintaining its functionality. BioWare aren't doing that, they're just taking awy all complexity and functionality and leaving us with these shallow, weaksauce and often overly automated games that don't really let the player play the game as much as they should be. Both ME2 and DA2 are filled with examples of this.

On top of it all the entire style and tone of their games seem to be shifting away from mature, adult stories with some dignity and class and into the realms of Modern Hollywood action flicks and the like. Everything has to be faster paced and more action-packed, and they try too hard to be mature to the point of being somewhat immature and seeming to suit the action-starved teenager more than the intelligent adult. It's all style over substance lately, with the rule of cool coming in in full force and pushing logic and sensibility aside. So not only are BioWare products seeming to change in gameplay, but also overall presentation and style, and quite often now they seem far more willing to throw lore, logic and consistency aside for just being "badass!" and "awesome!" in the most shallow and visceral of ways. It also seems to me that they're listening more to "non-fans" who didn't really like the original games than they are to those who did, just so they can bring them into the fold.

On a final note I was watching an old episode of Top Gear the other day and Jeremy on there actually said something I felt I could relate to regarding BioWare's more modern products like ME2 and DA2 and part of the reason why they're just not as good. Beyond what I've said above (though somewhat related to it), when Jeremy was comparing some new supercars to ones from 10-15 years ago he found himself preferring the older ones, and the simpler reasoning was because despite the newer ones being faster and flashier the older ones made you feel more in control, more like you were actually driving the car yourself and more personal as a result. The newer cars were all computerised and filled with modern technology that would adjust half a dozen things just from him deciding to turn the wheel or break at a certain time, and he felt the car was thus doing most of the work for him rather than letting him truly experience the sensation of actually driving himself.

And that's how BioWare's latest offerings feel now: by overly streamlining, oversimplifying and automating the games too much, they're taking away too much control and choice away from the player. RPGs are supposed to be about choice and letting me play the game, but ME2 and DA2 are too restrictive and do half the work for me with little to no input automatically, or simply no longer give me the option. In trying to become more user-friendly for the player who might be somewhat intimidated by the elements that constitute and RPG they've taken away many of the factors that make an RPG satisfying and fun for me personally. It doesn't really feel like I'm playing the game, it just feels like I'm being taken along for a ride and I just don't have the choice and freedom I once did and look for in an RPG.

Modifié par Terror_K, 21 mars 2011 - 01:01 .


#466
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...
You misinterperate the reactions then dont you? People are worried that future games from Bioware are going to be just as bad, or worse than this one, and they dont want that to be the case, hence they are complaining.


Someone will move in to fill the gap. Why is so critically important that BioWare succeed as a company?

Brenus wrote...
And DA2 isnt average. Its well below average for an RPG, if not the worst one ever made on the PC.

No, Two Worlds is well below average for an RPG.

#467
Brenus

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Soul Cool wrote...

Brenus wrote...
You misinterperate the reactions then dont you? People are worried that future games from Bioware are going to be just as bad, or worse than this one, and they dont want that to be the case, hence they are complaining.


Someone will move in to fill the gap. Why is so critically important that BioWare succeed as a company?

Brenus wrote...
And DA2 isnt average. Its well below average for an RPG, if not the worst one ever made on the PC.

No, Two Worlds is well below average for an RPG.


No one has moved to fill the gap yet have they? So where is the successor to BG2 is someone else is going to move in to create it?

Also, Two Worlds is a great PC RPG you clown. If you think that is well below average, DA2 is still only 10% as good as that game is. 

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 01:09 .


#468
Kilshrek

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Terror_K, I'm with you on most of your points. However if ME 2 gave us some inventory and took out that rubbish heat clip system it would've done.. better(Sure lots of people loved it, I did, but it took things away that didn't need to go away). Like I've said elsewhere the epic you got from ME 1 and DAO have gone on a cruise holiday in their sequels.

#469
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...
No one has moved to fill the gap yet have they? So where is the successor to BG2 is someone else is going to move in to create it?

Hard to fill a gap when there isn't one yet.

Brenus wrote...
Also, Two Worlds is a great PC RPG you clown. If you think that is well below average, DA2 is still only 10% as good as that game is.

I don't believe you're serious. Have fun with your great RPG.

#470
Brenus

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Soul Cool wrote...

Brenus wrote...
No one has moved to fill the gap yet have they? So where is the successor to BG2 is someone else is going to move in to create it?

Hard to fill a gap when there isn't one yet.

Brenus wrote...
Also, Two Worlds is a great PC RPG you clown. If you think that is well below average, DA2 is still only 10% as good as that game is.

I don't believe you're serious. Have fun with your great RPG.


And you think you are serious that you think DA2 is any better? lol!

And how isnt there a gap when so many people are still waiting for a BG2 successor, yet no one is making one? That kind of resembles a huge gap in the gaming market to me. Maybe try and think a little harder and use the thing you have in your head called a brain.

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 01:15 .


#471
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...
And you think you are serious that you think DA2 is any better? lol!

And how isnt there a gap when so many people are still waiting for a BG2 successor, yet no one is making one? That kind of resembles a huge gap in the gaming market to me. Maybe try and think a little harder and use the thing you have in your head called a brain.

You own the greatest gaming platform in the history of mankind with the ability to modify the game to your heart's desire. Go on, get to it. I'm sure you're capable of doing everything much better than the DA 2 team. Maybe you can even make the game as good as Two Worlds. You can do it. I believe in you.

#472
Brenus

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Soul Cool wrote...

Brenus wrote...
And you think you are serious that you think DA2 is any better? lol!

And how isnt there a gap when so many people are still waiting for a BG2 successor, yet no one is making one? That kind of resembles a huge gap in the gaming market to me. Maybe try and think a little harder and use the thing you have in your head called a brain.

You own the greatest gaming platform in the history of mankind with the ability to modify the game to your heart's desire. Go on, get to it. I'm sure you're capable of doing everything much better than the DA 2 team. Maybe you can even make the game as good as Two Worlds. You can do it. I believe in you.




Except that I'm numerically challenged and cant write code to save my own life. 

And Two Worlds is hardly the best RPG available, nor is it good enough for me to want to buy it, but as I said, it is a WHOLE LOT better than what DA2 is.

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 01:20 .


#473
Soul Cool

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Brenus wrote...
Except that I'm numerically challenged and cant write code to save my own life. 

You'd fit right in with Microsoft. ^_^

#474
Dr. Impossible

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Soul Cool wrote...

No, it isn't, but there should not be a "You're all miserable failures, go make me DA:O2" reactions because they failed to match their usual fantastic quality. Sometimes a great game company makes average games, there is no reason to be this offended by average.

DA2 was not an honest mistake, but a result of a deliberate, cynical process of dumbing down the game and cutting corners to appeal to people who don't like RPGs and to get it out the door quickly.

Why are professional opinions worth less?

Like Brenus said, they are paid to give favorable reviews. Or rather, they lose all their nice perks if they don't cooperate.

"More of the same" eventually results in an unsatisfied populace.

Were RPG fans so unsatisfied with existing RPGs that they demanded Hawke's Big Dumb Adventure? Because it seems to me like RPG fans were quite satisfied with their RPGs and wanted more of the same. They didn't get more of the same, and now they're angry.

Imagine if Street Fighter V played like Streets of Rage. People would call bullsh*t because they want to play Street Fighter, not Streets of Rage.

Modifié par Dr. Impossible, 21 mars 2011 - 01:24 .


#475
Brenus

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Street Fighter has never been dumbed down. Its the same game today that it always was, just vastly improved and so much better.

Why cant RPGs do that as well rather than always becoming crapper?

People really dont want change in their video games, they want their favorite genres to maintain what makes them good. They dont want them changing to become worse like DA2 has.

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 01:28 .