832 réponses à ce sujet

[The Brigand]

I think Mike Laidlaw should read up on Metroid: Other M.

Essentially it was designed to appeal to a wider audience (specifically, casual gamers, Nintendo's big money audience these days), and the developers believed that the core fanbase wouldn't mind. Nearly a year after its release, it's gone on to be the second* worst selling Metroid game of all time. And it's not as if the series was getting stale or anything. The series generally pulls sales of 1-2 million, with the highest being just over 3 million copies sold (Metroid Prime, fyi).

Now, the situation with Metroid: Other M is hardly the same as Dragon Age II's situation. Among other things, Metroid: Other M is hardly a Metroid game at all, whereas the general framework of your typical Bioware RPG is still present in Dragon Age II, from what I've gathered. But I feel it's worth mentioning.

*The worst being Metroid Prime Trilogy, a limited run collector's edition. Seriously.

[SphereofSilence]

What Mike said there sounds fair and reasonable. But the question is 'Have you found a successful gameplay formula yet, one that is great for both newcomers and traditional RPGers alike?' The answer is obviously no. It's sitting between an RPG and an action game, it's actually neither of them. You risk losing both set of players.

[AkiKishi]

TJSolo wrote...

I would think that Bioware would know how to please their audience by now not to need to obese over how to theoretically please potential customers.
I also don't see how abbreviations like STR or notions that strength is a modifier for attacks is going to stagnate anything. Evolving implies taking what you do well and using that to survive and excel. What Bioware is doing is copying what others do well and coming up short in execution.
So Mr. Laidlaw and your handlers at EA should just sit back and watch Bethesda and Valve provide actual sequels to theirs games that also evolve to match the strengths of those two genres.

Just out of curiosity who sells more Bethesda or Bioware?

SphereofSilence wrote...

What Mike said there sounds fair and reasonable. But the question is 'Have you found a successful gameplay formula yet, one that is great for both newcomers and traditional RPGers alike?' The answer is obviously no. It's sitting between an RPG and an action game, it's actually neither of them. You risk losing both set of players.

Absolutely.. I love action games. I should really love DA2's combat, but I don't . Because it's bad combat for an action game, the cooldowns ruin the action. I can't make something awsome happen when I press a button when it's cooling down. As a result it fails me both as RPG combat and as action combat.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 20 mars 2011 - 07:07 .

[Brenus]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Chewu wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

So basically Mike Laidlaw wants to make rpgs for people who don't play rpgs.

He wants to turn people who don't play RPGs into people who play RPGs.

But by changing the RPG genre to non-RPG that means that those people won't actually play a RPG.

I'm really not interested in arguing about whether or not DAII is an RPG. DAII had its failings. Not living up to some "RPG standard" was not one of them.

Erm yes it was. That is the exact reason for why DA2 is a failure.

[Gavinthelocust]

I hate to say it because Mike is a nice guy, but we need his ass fired if this was all his fault.

[Brenus]

So basically, according to Laidlaw, if you keep on making RPGs as epic and brilliant as BG2 was, the genre would fail?

Lol, I dont think so.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Mike is confusing. He sounds so nice and looks like a cute teddy bear but *what* he says actually is...disappointing. Face it, DA:RtP will not make any CoD player stop playing CoD. DA:RtP is not a shooter or action game, it's a mixture of RPG and action game thus cannot satisfy either of the target audiences.

[Alex109222]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

I hate to say it because Mike is a nice guy, but we need his ass fired if this was all his fault.

Don't need a man out of his job, he just needs to sit down and uh... have a cold bath while playing BG2.

[mesmerizedish]

Brenus wrote...

Erm yes it was. That is the exact reason for why DA2 is a failure.

I don't think DAII is a failure. I think it's the best game BioWare's made in ten years. You can disagree, but say you disagree. Don't say there are five lights when you're not even in the same room.

[Alex109222]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Mike is confusing. He sounds so nice and looks like a cute teddy bear but *what* he says actually is...disappointing. Face it, DA:RtP will not make any CoD player stop playing CoD. DA:RtP is not a shooter or action game, it's a mixture of RPG and action game thus cannot satisfy either of the target audiences.

This really, nothing will separate COD fans from COD, nothing.

[Brenus]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Erm yes it was. That is the exact reason for why DA2 is a failure.

I don't think DAII is a failure. I think it's the best game BioWare's made in ten years. You can disagree, but say you disagree. Don't say there are five lights when you're not even in the same room.

Then youre just insane.

Modifié par Brenus, 20 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[mesmerizedish]

Brenus wrote...

So basically, according to Laidlaw, if you keep on making RPGs as epic and brilliant as BG2 was, the genre would fail?

Lol, I dont think so.

That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying that if you keep on making RPGs using the Infinity Engine, based on 2e AD&D rules, and taking place in the Forgotten Realms setting, the genre would fail.

Your straw men are giving me hay fever.

Brenus wrote...

Then youre just insane.

Straw men and an ad hominem? Call the logical fallacy police, because we have a criminal at large.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 20 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[Insom]

They want to genocide RPG fans because we have standards. An average COD player has very little standards, they buy the same game every year and love it. That's the kind of people EA wants

[enrogae]

I fail to see how the RPG genre was stagnant or failing, or even how RPG players are in the minority, considering how well DA:O did in sales. I do believe it was one of, if not the, biggest sellers in Bioware's history. I really think this all comes down to greed, regardless of his statements trying to justify their choices in DA:2. They did so well with the first game, and EA and/or Bioware saw this and simply thought... "we want more".

I know they want to succeed, and they want to make more money. This is logical... but they engaged in the height of fallacy by trying to appeal to everyone. Bioware needs to decide if they are making RPG's or not. If they decide they are not, then I will probably stop playing their games. Evolve the genre all you want, but do not forget that that genre is what made you. Evolve it too much, and too quickly, and you will kill it (insomuch as your company is concerned). Evolution is something that is supposed to take place gradually, over a long period of time. The genre has come a long way since Zelda... but it became more complex, which we enjoyed more. This is like a step back... it's almost as simple as Zelda, except that combat animations are flashier and the characters actually talk now.

Modifié par enrogae, 20 mars 2011 - 07:14 .

[AkiKishi]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Erm yes it was. That is the exact reason for why DA2 is a failure.

I don't think DAII is a failure. I think it's the best game BioWare's made in ten years. You can disagree, but say you disagree. Don't say there are five lights when you're not even in the same room.

Sales will determine if it's a failure right now it looks like a failure. How many did CoD sell week 1 ? Does it really look like DA2 captured any of the CoD crowd ? 

[TJSolo]

Just out of curiosity who sells more Bethesda or Bioware?

I trust that is a rhetorical question coming from you but I will put out an answer just in case there are some that do not know.
Bethesda sells more.

[88mphSlayer]

which is why DA2 is the most ironic game ever made... as DAO was supposed to be a throwback while Mass Effect was the franchise already doing "genre death"

now we have 2 Mass Effect franchises and 1 Galaxy of Star Wars Craft and 0 throwbacks

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 20 mars 2011 - 07:15 .

[AkiKishi]

Black ops sold 7 million on day 1. Just looked it up.

[Alex109222]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

I would think that Bioware would know how to please their audience by now not to need to obese over how to theoretically please potential customers.
I also don't see how abbreviations like STR or notions that strength is a modifier for attacks is going to stagnate anything. Evolving implies taking what you do well and using that to survive and excel. What Bioware is doing is copying what others do well and coming up short in execution.
So Mr. Laidlaw and your handlers at EA should just sit back and watch Bethesda and Valve provide actual sequels to theirs games that also evolve to match the strengths of those two genres.

Just out of curiosity who sells more Bethesda or Bioware?

SphereofSilence wrote...

What Mike said there sounds fair and reasonable. But the question is 'Have you found a successful gameplay formula yet, one that is great for both newcomers and traditional RPGers alike?' The answer is obviously no. It's sitting between an RPG and an action game, it's actually neither of them. You risk losing both set of players.

Absolutely.. I love action games. I should really love DA2's combat, but I don't . Because it's bad combat for an action game, the cooldowns ruin the action. I can't make something awsome happen when I press a button when it's cooling down. As a result it fails me both as RPG combat and as action combat.

Bethesda has the larger fanbase, and since Oblivion their fanbase has gottan ever so larger, Skyrim is one of the most anticipated games this year.

Modifié par Alex109222, 20 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[MonkeyLungs]

Alot of CoD players play because of the intense player vs. player competition. They enjoy the game for the shooting mechanics, the guns, the fast paced thrill of trying to survive against HUMAN opponents instead of AI. Also many FPS gamers on Xbox at least play CoD for all those reasons mentioned before and also the game has a massive community. There are always matches to be played and plenty of opponents out there for matchmaking.

Alot of these gamers are guys like my brother who just love the intensity of battling other players. He will not EVER watch a cutscene for a game because to him that stuff is just pure boredom. Thre is nothing wrong with that kind of gamer, those are his tastes and there are awesome games out there for him.. But to try and make an RPG appeal to him you would have to turn it into a a hyper competitve player vs. player instant action type game .. basically not an RPG.

[AkiKishi]

Alex109222 wrote...
Bethesda has the larger fanbase, and since Oblivion their fanbase has gottan ever so larger, one of the most anticipated games this year.

Thanks.

I'm looking forward to Hunted Demon Forge they are doing with Inxile. Brian Fargo , hope he has better luck with this than Bards Tale (new version).

[SphereofSilence]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

I hate to say it because Mike is a nice guy, but we need his ass fired if this was all his fault.

IMO, the biggest scapegoat is EA. I think EA's investors wanted more profit returns, citing that DA franchise need to perform better (there's a source somewhere which I can't remember, you can prolly search it up). Thus, they asked BW for a shorter release date and to generate more sales. You can imagine these led the changes of direction for DA2 in the attempt to reach a bigger audience. One thing I am sure of is I do not want to be in the position and circumstances of Mike. It's a very difficult position to be in, and there may be no way for him to please all sides. He has to take risks. It's not just Mike alone I'm sure.

[Brenus]

Alex109222 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

I would think that Bioware would know how to please their audience by now not to need to obese over how to theoretically please potential customers.
I also don't see how abbreviations like STR or notions that strength is a modifier for attacks is going to stagnate anything. Evolving implies taking what you do well and using that to survive and excel. What Bioware is doing is copying what others do well and coming up short in execution.
So Mr. Laidlaw and your handlers at EA should just sit back and watch Bethesda and Valve provide actual sequels to theirs games that also evolve to match the strengths of those two genres.

Just out of curiosity who sells more Bethesda or Bioware?

SphereofSilence wrote...

What Mike said there sounds fair and reasonable. But the question is 'Have you found a successful gameplay formula yet, one that is great for both newcomers and traditional RPGers alike?' The answer is obviously no. It's sitting between an RPG and an action game, it's actually neither of them. You risk losing both set of players.

Absolutely.. I love action games. I should really love DA2's combat, but I don't . Because it's bad combat for an action game, the cooldowns ruin the action. I can't make something awsome happen when I press a button when it's cooling down. As a result it fails me both as RPG combat and as action combat.

Bethesda has the larger fanbase, and since Oblivion their fanbase has gottan ever so larger, one of the most anticipated games this year.

And Bioware would have had an even larger and devoted fanbase if they had kept making games as good as BG2.

[enrogae]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Alot of CoD players play because of the intense player vs. player competition. They enjoy the game for the shooting mechanics, the guns, the fast paced thrill of trying to survive against HUMAN opponents instead of AI. Also many FPS gamers on Xbox at least play CoD for all those reasons mentioned before and also the game has a massive community. There are always matches to be played and plenty of opponents out there for matchmaking.

Alot of these gamers are guys like my brother who just love the intensity of battling other players. He will not EVER watch a cutscene for a game because to him that stuff is just pure boredom. Thre is nothing wrong with that kind of gamer, those are his tastes and there are awesome games out there for him.. But to try and make an RPG appeal to him you would have to turn it into a a hyper competitve player vs. player instant action type game .. basically not an RPG.

I agree with you 100%, and that is why Bioware's attempt with DA:2 is pure fallacy.  They are trying to appeal to a crowd with a product they would never find appealing.  You cannot make one game that appeals to every gamer.  I just do not think it's possible.  Personally I find those type of "twitch" entertainment games pure boredom, because they have no depth or soul.  So, when you try to appeal to both audiences (RPG vs. FPS)... you are only going to disappoint them both.

Even for folks that enjoy both genres... when they pick up an FPS they want to play an FPS.  When they pick up an RPG they want to play an RPG.  They enjoy both, and you just can't have them both in one game and it be something good that appeals to both gameplay styles.

The way I see it -- it's like paintball and chess.  You can't have a chess-style slow, thought-drawn strategy while playing paintball.  That's not the appeal of paintball.  You also can't have paintball style chess.  Even speed chess still requires turn-based strategy.  Chess players might enjoy paintball, and visa-versa... but there will never be a chessball.  To attempt it is to have a failed product.

Modifié par enrogae, 20 mars 2011 - 07:25 .

[88mphSlayer]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Alot of CoD players play because of the intense player vs. player competition. They enjoy the game for the shooting mechanics, the guns, the fast paced thrill of trying to survive against HUMAN opponents instead of AI. Also many FPS gamers on Xbox at least play CoD for all those reasons mentioned before and also the game has a massive community. There are always matches to be played and plenty of opponents out there for matchmaking.

Alot of these gamers are guys like my brother who just love the intensity of battling other players. He will not EVER watch a cutscene for a game because to him that stuff is just pure boredom. Thre is nothing wrong with that kind of gamer, those are his tastes and there are awesome games out there for him.. But to try and make an RPG appeal to him you would have to turn it into a a hyper competitve player vs. player instant action type game .. basically not an RPG.

a lot of CoD players don't even play the single player, trying to appeal to the ones who do is kind of futile

CoD is not even the biggest gaming audience out there anyways, not sure why it's such a big target for non-shooter devs