832 réponses à ce sujet

[bill4747bill]

I am an old school rpg fan, and would love to see more 'full party of 6' rpgs. I would even like to see a turnbased one. But the game has to sell well or no company will make it.

One of my favorite rpgs despite being single protagonist and a bit actiony, was vampire bloodlines. I thought it was a stellar rpg...many charcater options, amazing writing, art, and music.
It only sold 72,000 and the company was all done.
Troika games made wasteland,arcanum, temple of elemental evil, and vampire bloodlines.
All of those games were ambitious, admittedly flawed as well.

I guess my point is that if my favorite games do not sell, I am S.O.L.

Modifié par bill4747bill, 21 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Veracruz]

We went from pen and paper D&D (explore dungeons, kill stuff, collect loot, your character is some stats based on race/class which you can reuse just changing the name if he dies because he has no real personality to care about) to more interesting stuff thanks to evolution. Vampire: The Masquerade, Paranoia, Traveller or Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth are just examples of how the "original" rpg game can be improved.

Then we could argue about if all the "evolutions" are good or failed attemps. But in any case, we need them.

[Brenus]

Maybe Vampire Bloodlines didnt sell because it had absolutely no marketing whatsoever?

Just because a game is of a particular genre such as a complex RPG is not the reason why it didnt sell.

It didnt sell because it wasnt marketed.

[Brenus]

Veracruz wrote...

We went from pen and paper D&D (explore dungeons, kill stuff, collect loot, your character is some stats based on race/class which you can reuse just changing the name if he dies because he has no real personality to care about) to more interesting stuff thanks to evolution. Vampire: The Masquerade, Paranoia, Traveller or Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth are just examples of how the "original" rpg game can be improved.

Then we could argue about if all the "evolutions" are good or failed attemps. But in any case, we need them.

None of those hings are 'evolutions'. Stop throwing that word around like it means anything in video games because it doesnt.

Vastly dumbing down games to try and make them more appealing to console players =/= evolution.

Modifié par Brenus, 21 mars 2011 - 01:33 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Not going to say that Dragon Age II is necessarily the right direction for RPGs to be "evolving" for Mr. Laidlaw's point to run true, but at the same time, what he says *is* true. But where does the ideal balance lie? Evolution is a term denoting progress, not regression. If something is unquestionably worse--like the map-fatigue copy/paste syndrome, or the emphasis on waves and waves of mooks--then it's not evolution, nor the kind of change that enlivens a possibly-dying genre.

On the flip side of the fence, a lot of people too readily equate "streamlining" with "dumbing down," which is not fair in the slightest. I can give examples of "streamlining" that work and examples of "streamlining" that don't, and some of both can be found in DA2. Example of streamlining that doesn't do a damned thing: removal of Talents. Example of streamlining that works: the shops. Screw talking to the shopkeepers, I just want to buy/sell things. Contrary to popular belief, folks, shopkeepers are and always will be HIDEOUSLY BORING.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 21 mars 2011 - 01:42 .

[cotheer]

Evolution is overrated.
Especially the one ML is talking about.
Evolution is not stripping down core elements of an RPG game. Its called "i'm too lazy to do it, lets take it down and call it evolution".
In my opinion if we talk about "evolution", great example is Assassins Creed, which evidently evolved ALOT since the first game, and evolved for the better by adding instead of removing elements.

What we have now with DAII is clear case of failed parent selection and mutation beyond recognition.

[Lotion Soronarr]

M.L. is ful of bull****.

What a stupid argument....where does "evoluton" (as he put it) end? If there's no end to changes, then with time there wil be nothing left fom the core that made X into X.

Also, since when does BG-like mean "exact copy of BG mechanics". Apparently, game evolution doesn't exist...except when it does.

Pft!.

[AkiKishi]

Dr. Impossible wrote...

RPGs were, for a long time, dungeon crawlers with paper-thin plots. It was adventure games that had the elaborate stories.

What does this mean?

You could say that about almost anything. If Samus Aran was a scientist in a wheelchair, I bet the game would be a little different.

1. Before my time. It's what drew me to PnP before CRPGs.

2. In a game where you make choices as part of the story, like FO , BG etc. That makes the story a gameplay element.

3. Yes you could. It still holds true though.

[Rixxencaxx]

drakensang....a german classic rpg sold 5 million copies.....the problem is that bioware wants to sell 10 millions spending 100.000

[Dr. Impossible]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Before my time. It's what drew me to PnP before CRPGs.

World War II was before your time too, but that doesn't mean you can't learn about it.

3. Yes you could. It still holds true though.

Video games are not character-driven. That's a movie concept.

[AkiKishi]

Dr. Impossible wrote...

World War II was before your time too, but that doesn't mean you can't learn about it.

Video games are not character-driven. That's a movie concept.

Sure I could learn about it after the fact, but it would not mean that was the reason I become interested. Because it's not.

Games are becoming more and more movie like. JRPGs like FF are and always have been character driven. You play the game, you watch the cinematics, it's just like a movie experience.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 mars 2011 - 02:53 .

[ItsToofy]

ev·o·lu·tion 
n.
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form

Someone tell me where exactly did DA2 change into something more complex? it has been simplified to cater to the console gamer, therefore, it has de-evolved into something basic.

Baldur's Gate series = Human
Dragon Age: Origins = Neandrathal
DA2 = bacteria

Someone prove the definition of evolution wrong, please. This game is an embarassment and all they are trying to do is defend their position of dumbing down the genre by claiming they were trying to evolve the RPG genre as a whole, if by evolving the RPG genre means turning the genre into some sort of mindless action game, then yes, they succeeded

Modifié par ItsToofy, 21 mars 2011 - 03:12 .

[Dr. Impossible]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Games are becoming more and more movie like. JRPGs like FF are and always have been character driven. You play the game, you watch the cinematics, it's just like a movie experience.

*sigh*

[NWN DM]

The only kind of genre death BioWare needs to worry about is the kind that comes about when companies release crap games and make decisions that alienate their customer base.

[Hatchetman77]

Dr. Impossible wrote...
Video games are not character-driven. That's a movie concept.

Well, character driven stories predate movies but I get what you're saying.  In a character driven story your character has to go through some kind of character arc for the story to be effective.That causes problems with a video game because the main character is being controlled by the person watching the story.  So the writers can choose to force the arc on the story's protagonist at the risk of causing a disconnect between the player and the main character.  This causes the player to not feel in control of what is happening to the main character and causes alienation between the player and character (the character is going in a direction that the player doesn't choose for them/want them too).  This is extremly problomatic because the entire appeal of an RPG like this is to navigate your character through this world and the player projects themself onto the main character.  If your character is changing, that means they have a personality of their own independent of the player and if your player goes one way with a story revelation and the character goes another, then you have problems.  Someone watching a movie can sympathize/empathize with a character even though they don't fully agree with a character's actions/conclusions.  In a video game you're forced to control this character that you now don't agree with, compounding the problem of the disconnect.

For a game like this I think it is important to stick with a story driven plot and let the player determine any character arcs that their character may or may not have.  That's the Roleplaying part of RPG.    

[MonkeyLungs]

Evolution (in this sense) is NEWSPEAK for: We didn't have alot of time to get this game out the door and we tried real hard to do as much as we could in the given time but due to the extremely short development cycle we just couldn't do as much as we or the fans would have liked.

[Gatt9]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Evolution (in this sense) is NEWSPEAK for: We didn't have alot of time to get this game out the door and we tried real hard to do as much as we could in the given time but due to the extremely short development cycle we just couldn't do as much as we or the fans would have liked.

Yup.  It always amazes me that some developer uses some buzzword to describe his extremely debatable change to a game,  and a ton of people suddenly latch onto it like it has some meaning.  Here it's "Evolution!",  for Fallout 3 it was "Immersive!".  Over on the ME forums it's "Cinematic!".

When will people learn that it's a attempt at dismissing valid criticism by trying to invoke some higher power?

[Senepoos]

Trying to appeal to everyone can lead to let downs...

http://simpsons.wiki.../wiki/The_Homer

How many miles per gallon do you think you will get out of the Dragon Age franchise continuing this train of thought Bioware?

[AkiKishi]

Senepoos wrote...

Trying to appeal to everyone can lead to let downs...

http://simpsons.wiki.../wiki/The_Homer

How many miles per gallon do you think you will get out of the Dragon Age franchise continuing this train of thought Bioware?

About he same as EA got out of Westwood.

[MonkeyLungs]

In all fairness I think Bioware producing this game in such a short time is like a double or triple edged sword.
--One bad thing about it is the rushed product.
++However, it is still quite enjoyable to alot of fans and seems to be selling pretty well.
--Another bad thing about it is that they have just proven that they can produce an RPG at record pace. I'm njot sure this a good thing for Bioware or the consumer but time will tell. Will they ever go back to longer development cycles? I don't know. Cutting years out of the development process is an incredible reduction in the cost of making the game. This has probably saved them so much money that it would be hard from a business standpoint to go back to a longer development cycle.
++The plus side of this is that the fans who are happy will probably get more games and more DLC and get them much faster.

---

None of this to me feels like evolution or artisitc vision. It seems like simple economics and people doing what they feel is right for their business and trying to maximize they money they can make from their products. Alos Bioware is riding high on the success of ME2 and DA:O and they have to 'strike the hammer while the iron is hot' so-to-speak.

The undercurrent of what Mr. Laidlaw said is much more important than his words. He does not have the luxury of full blown honesty in this situation and for real his job is alot more important to him than telling the truth to a bunch of fans. I don't blame him at all.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

ItsToofy wrote...

Someone prove the definition of evolution wrong, please.

Let me refine your overly simple definition. 

Punctuated equilibrium.  :happy::happy::happy:  Systems previously in balance are disturbed.  New conditions predominate.  The organism that best fits into the new conditions is the one that will flourish.  :lol:


Old conditions:  RPGs were dull.  Mix and match loot, endless item comparison, shopping simulator.  Yet, great story.  The bad parts were tolerated by the many players drawn by the good parts.

Now, BioWare has changed the conditions.  I can get all the good story without all the boring parts of traditional RPG mechanics.  Which creature is going to survive these new conditions?  Games like DA2 will draw huge crowds (money), games like Baldur's Gate will not.  Good bye, dinosaurs, hello mammals.  ^_^

[Viking_Warrior]

MonkeyLungs wrote...
None of this to me feels like evolution or artisitc vision. It seems like simple economics and people doing what they feel is right for their business and trying to maximize they money they can make from their products. Alos Bioware is riding high on the success of ME2 and DA:O and they have to 'strike the hammer while the iron is hot' so-to-speak.

The undercurrent of what Mr. Laidlaw said is much more important than his words. He does not have the luxury of full blown honesty in this situation and for real his job is alot more important to him than telling the truth to a bunch of fans. I don't blame him at all.

This.
 
But while this model can earn you money short term, it's not a buisness model to use if you want to bring in cash for years to come. You have to build your brand and get a customer base and deliver a product they want(Bioware had allready done this, but obviously changed.). If you sell Ferrari but replace their engines with a Opel engine people will get pissed off as they don't get the product you have advertised you sell. Much of the sales for DA2 Im sure came from the same people who paid for  "Orgins", and I don't think they all will stick to the franchise if it undergoes shortcuts and drastic changes until it becomes a different product. 

If they strip the game anymore it will become a  "Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone" like game, and that's not evolution in the slightest. I don't think the right way to bring "evolution" to a RPG title is to rip away the "core" of the genere you are tryin to publish your products into... Honestly I don't see anything in DA2 that makes it a tad more "rpg" than example Red Dead Redemption which is a open world action-adventure. In fact I felt I role played John Marston much more than I did Hawke. 

[MonkeyLungs]

RPG's were NOT dull. At least not to the millions of fans that helped Bioware become a succesful RPG maker.

[MonkeyLungs]

Viking_Warrior wrote...

This.
 
But while this model can earn you money short term, it's not a buisness model to use if you want to bring in cash for years to come. You have to build your brand and get a customer base and deliver a product they want(Bioware had allready done this, but obviously changed.). If you sell Ferrari but replace their engines with a Opel engine people will get pissed off as they don't get the product you have advertised you sell. Much of the sales for DA2 Im sure came from the same people who paid for  "Orgins", and I don't think they all will stick to the franchise if it undergoes shortcuts and drastic changes until it becomes a different product. 

If they strip the game anymore it will become a  "Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone" like game, and that's not evolution in the slightest. I don't think the right way to bring "evolution" to a RPG title is to rip away the "core" of the genere you are tryin to publish your products into... Honestly I don't see anything in DA2 that makes it a tad more "rpg" than example Red Dead Redemption which is a open world action-adventure. In fact I felt I role played John Marston much more than I did Hawke. 

I agree with you. Your Red Dead reference is very good. That game actually has quite a bit of 'rpg-like' stuff in it.

[bill4747bill]

Brenus wrote...

Maybe Vampire Bloodlines didnt sell because it had absolutely no marketing whatsoever?

Just because a game is of a particular genre such as a complex RPG is not the reason why it didnt sell.

It didnt sell because it wasnt marketed.

Good point. I had forgotten about marketing completely. I know that vampire bloodlines suffered from being released early; I can only dream about what it could have been given another year.

Still my favorite rpg tied with dragon age.