832 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica83]

Changed yes but in better....just see what they told they have added,,,Anyways we are fan of bioware,,, And we love rpgs... we have the right to post here like all the people here... I don't understeand people that says.. hey if you don't like the game move on!... No we are still here and continue to express ourself.. You don't like it?.... Deal with it..

[TheMadCat]

Ellestor wrote...
 Maybe. Can't really agree or disagree without examples of what I might be missing.

Well, for FPS you have games such SWAT 4, ArmA 2, STALKER series, Red Orchestra, Team Fortress 2, Killing Floor, Half-Life Series, Cryostasis, and Prey to name a few which have made strides to seperate themselves from the standard CoD/Battle Field formula. For RTS you have the Total War series, Paradox games, Majesty 2, Stronghold, Men at War, World in Conflict, Theater of War, and Sins of a Solar Empire. Again a few examples which have implemented features to seperate themselves from the generic base builders or tower defenses.

There's always going to be some stagnation. Sevelopers and publishers, especially the big ones, prefer using the cookie cutter builds which they know will sell massive numbers. But there's always companies trying something new and actually progressing the genre, sometimes it works well and slips into the cookie cutter build, sometimes it's adapted from other genres, and sometimes it fails. But the small guys who can't afford the millions upon millions of advertising dollars, they're the ones who will be evolving the genres, create games different from those stagnating as their means of attracting customers.

[Merced652]

cachx wrote...

moilami wrote...
To say DA2 has evolved is to say I would evolve if I would lose one arm and one leg.

Are you aware how evolution works? If humans were to lose and arm and a leg due to evolution then it's because they were never needed in the first place to make us function. This is happening to games.

Maybe you need to rethink your rationale, or find a better analogy.

Oh is it? Then enlighten us as to what is needed to make an rpg a rpg? Uh oh, subjective subject is subjective. 
Dun Dun Dunnnnn. So bro, lets hear it. If i were to extrapolate, which i am a master of, then you're apparently saying every rpg system outside of story telling is superfluous and is never used to great effect; fundamentally a hinderance. So you're proposing that those rpg elements be cut out to make room for more story, which you no doubt offer up as the only thing that matters in rpgs. So, after all those rpg elements are taken out and all you have is a story, and maybe a dialogue system, it fundamentally ceases to be a rpg. 

Somewhat ironic, if you will, given Laidlaw's comment on genre death.

[AlanC9]

You've convinced me, Merced652. The RPG genre needs to die.

[Merced652]

AlanC9 wrote...

You've convinced me, Merced652. The RPG genre needs to die.

I was under the impression you already desired this, much like every other who only cares for the story. 

I am curious though... The only reason i preordered, and i preordered 1/10/11:D, was because i figured if the worst happens i'd still get a story worthy of bioware out of it. Now i think its fair to say i was a bit disapointed in the story, and the companions, and well everything. But i'm not sure if this is because i was looking for the story to make up for its horrible gameplay and streamlining or if it was just bad in general. Seeing how i don't emphasize story nearly so much as others i feel compelled to ask. 

[TEWR]

I agree with Laidlaw.

[scpulley]

*slamsheadtodesk* Jeebus this sort of comment by him burns me a bit. So basically, he's giving those of us that LIKE where RPG's were at, especially ones like DAO the middle finger? That....I don't know that just comes off as 'whiney artist' that wants to keep evolving his craft but not care that people don't care if his craft evolves. In the end, is he here for his customer or is he here to push the RPG to a place he wants to take it? I mean I liked DA 2, I did. But it sort of flew in the face of the previous game, especially when they allowed that import and all it did was remind you that the first game was better. Great plan dude, see how long that last you. I'll give you a hint, that magic audience he wants to turn into RPG fans? They are WAY more fickle in their taste, meaning they will come to like the 'new rpg' quick then just as quick pack up and leave when they get bored and want the next new thing. It's a HUGE risk to take for no reason. ME is PERFECT for what he is trying to do. Why do this in DA setting? That's what I don't get. It was never established that way originally now he wants to force it that way because he's under the delusion it's worth abandoning what people liked to get a new crop of people that aren't nearly as likely to stay loyal? Just baffles my mind.

[Cobrawar]

scpulley wrote...

*slamsheadtodesk* Jeebus this sort of comment by him burns me a bit. So basically, he's giving those of us that LIKE where RPG's were at, especially ones like DAO the middle finger? That....I don't know that just comes off as 'whiney artist' that wants to keep evolving his craft but not care that people don't care if his craft evolves. In the end, is he here for his customer or is he here to push the RPG to a place he wants to take it? I mean I liked DA 2, I did. But it sort of flew in the face of the previous game, especially when they allowed that import and all it did was remind you that the first game was better. Great plan dude, see how long that last you. I'll give you a hint, that magic audience he wants to turn into RPG fans? They are WAY more fickle in their taste, meaning they will come to like the 'new rpg' quick then just as quick pack up and leave when they get bored and want the next new thing. It's a HUGE risk to take for no reason. ME is PERFECT for what he is trying to do. Why do this in DA setting? That's what I don't get. It was never established that way originally now he wants to force it that way because he's under the delusion it's worth abandoning what people liked to get a new crop of people that aren't nearly as likely to stay loyal? Just baffles my mind.

well said and I feel the exact same way.

[MJRick]

abaris wrote...

And by what Laidlaw calls evolving, they drive their core audience away.

I wonder if catering to the mass market makes up for that.

Please the "core audience" just holds bioware back telling them to making the same game over and over again.

[Galad22]

MJRick wrote...

Please the "core audience" just holds bioware back telling them to making the same game over and over again.

So since we don't want bioware to make arcade fighting games we are telling them to make same game over and over again?

You can't make rpgs for people who don't like rpgs.

[Morroian]

Galad22 wrote...

MJRick wrote...

Please the "core audience" just holds bioware back telling them to making the same game over and over again.

So since we don't want bioware to make arcade fighting games we are telling them to make same game over and over again?

Strawman alert.

[Morroian]

Monica83 wrote...

Changed yes but in better....just see what they told they have added,,,Anyways we are fan of bioware,,, And we love rpgs... we have the right to post here like all the people here... I don't understeand people that says.. hey if you don't like the game move on!... No we are still here and continue to express ourself.. You don't like it?.... Deal with it..

You haven't even played the game so you're now making comments in ignorance. Plus there's the fact that you've been saying the exact same thing over and over again for how many months now, you never have anything new to add or bring to the discussion. Why bother repeating yourself? 

[MJRick]

Cobrawar wrote...

scpulley wrote...

*slamsheadtodesk* Jeebus this sort of comment by him burns me a bit. So basically, he's giving those of us that LIKE where RPG's were at, especially ones like DAO the middle finger? That....I don't know that just comes off as 'whiney artist' that wants to keep evolving his craft but not care that people don't care if his craft evolves. In the end, is he here for his customer or is he here to push the RPG to a place he wants to take it? I mean I liked DA 2, I did. But it sort of flew in the face of the previous game, especially when they allowed that import and all it did was remind you that the first game was better. Great plan dude, see how long that last you. I'll give you a hint, that magic audience he wants to turn into RPG fans? They are WAY more fickle in their taste, meaning they will come to like the 'new rpg' quick then just as quick pack up and leave when they get bored and want the next new thing. It's a HUGE risk to take for no reason. ME is PERFECT for what he is trying to do. Why do this in DA setting? That's what I don't get. It was never established that way originally now he wants to force it that way because he's under the delusion it's worth abandoning what people liked to get a new crop of people that aren't nearly as likely to stay loyal? Just baffles my mind.

well said and I feel the exact same way.

Well YOU are the secret dev make them do something about it champ!

[egervari]

Dark Specie wrote...

egervari wrote...

If he wants to make an RPG that isn't quite like Origins... then why not make a new brand to try out your "experiment".

Because people might not buy it then? Or not as many, at least...  People are much more cautious when it comes to a totally new brand, whereas they're more likely to go straight for a popular, already established brand which already has a large fanbase. It's a risk, because you risk alienating the core fanbase from the first game of course, but you ensure a certain profit margin by doing that...

That doesn't make much sense. If we used your reasoning, you are taking the position that people wouldn't have bought Bioware's experiment of "Mass Effect" using your logic, but they did. Before Dragon Age was known, it was a risk as well, as games of this sort hadn't be released for 8 years? 10? Except people bought it in droves.

If Bioware wants to make new franchies/brands to try out experiments, they have proven time and again that they are able to and succeed most of the time. Jade Empire didn't work out so well, but they are 2 for 3.

If they wanted to try out this kind of combat and story telling, they could have easily experimented with Jade Empire 2 actually.

[scpulley]

MJRick wrote...

Cobrawar wrote...

scpulley wrote...

*slamsheadtodesk* Jeebus this sort of comment by him burns me a bit. So basically, he's giving those of us that LIKE where RPG's were at, especially ones like DAO the middle finger? That....I don't know that just comes off as 'whiney artist' that wants to keep evolving his craft but not care that people don't care if his craft evolves. In the end, is he here for his customer or is he here to push the RPG to a place he wants to take it? I mean I liked DA 2, I did. But it sort of flew in the face of the previous game, especially when they allowed that import and all it did was remind you that the first game was better. Great plan dude, see how long that last you. I'll give you a hint, that magic audience he wants to turn into RPG fans? They are WAY more fickle in their taste, meaning they will come to like the 'new rpg' quick then just as quick pack up and leave when they get bored and want the next new thing. It's a HUGE risk to take for no reason. ME is PERFECT for what he is trying to do. Why do this in DA setting? That's what I don't get. It was never established that way originally now he wants to force it that way because he's under the delusion it's worth abandoning what people liked to get a new crop of people that aren't nearly as likely to stay loyal? Just baffles my mind.

well said and I feel the exact same way.

Well YOU are the secret dev make them do something about it champ!

Don't have to be a dev to know good business. You don't gamble with the audience you already have in your pocket lightly unless you have something you know will make up for it. This sounded more like he wanted to be 'creative' which is great, buy why do it with a license that's so well known? So he can still squeak out a profit but make it that much harder to ever get your customers to trust you to develop another game in that setting? I'm all for creative, but doing it the way they did was a mistake, clearly. It was a horrible business decision.

[Blablabla79]

Alex109222 wrote...

LAIDLAAAWWW!!!
sadly I cannot continue my rant without getting banned.

Like that tez19 guy, who got permanently banned and now can't play his bought games anymore???
Or more like the "unfortunate glitch in the system" guy?

http://gamingbolt.co...on-age-2-player

Modifié par Blablabla79, 22 mars 2011 - 06:38 .

[Gatt9]

scpulley wrote...

*slamsheadtodesk* Jeebus this sort of comment by him burns me a bit. So basically, he's giving those of us that LIKE where RPG's were at, especially ones like DAO the middle finger? That....I don't know that just comes off as 'whiney artist' that wants to keep evolving his craft but not care that people don't care if his craft evolves. In the end, is he here for his customer or is he here to push the RPG to a place he wants to take it? I mean I liked DA 2, I did. But it sort of flew in the face of the previous game, especially when they allowed that import and all it did was remind you that the first game was better. Great plan dude, see how long that last you. I'll give you a hint, that magic audience he wants to turn into RPG fans? They are WAY more fickle in their taste, meaning they will come to like the 'new rpg' quick then just as quick pack up and leave when they get bored and want the next new thing. It's a HUGE risk to take for no reason. ME is PERFECT for what he is trying to do. Why do this in DA setting? That's what I don't get. It was never established that way originally now he wants to force it that way because he's under the delusion it's worth abandoning what people liked to get a new crop of people that aren't nearly as likely to stay loyal? Just baffles my mind.

You're absolutely right.  History,  those who do not learn it repeat it.

Microprose tried it with X-com,  hopping on the RTS bandwagon.  Lead them straight to liquidation.  SSI tried it with Panzer General,  and it lead straight to liquidation.  Interplay tried it with Baldur's Gate,  and it was a major contributer to liquidation.  Nearly every time a studio decides to hop on a bandwagon and convert their games over to the new fad format,  they end up gone.  That's what'll happen here.

Because as you put it,  these guys aren't here because they're RPG fans,  they're here because it's a fad and everyone tells them "(Insert game type) is cool and that's the only type of game to play!" 

So Bioware is tossing aside a relatively guaranteed revenue stream to go hop on the bandwagon,  like so many did before,  and they'll end up in the same place. 

Because all these people yelling "Evolution!  Immersion!  Cinematic!",  they'll all hop on the next buzz-word bandwagon out as the fad wears thin and a new one pops up.

Modifié par Gatt9, 22 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Sithlord715]

It's people like this Mike Laidlaw that have no right to be in a company such as Bioware, let alone a lead game designer. I bet you're real proud of yourself, aren't you Mikey? Creating the lowest rated (and arguably the most hated) Bioware RPG of all time. Nice "evolving" there chief

People like him, who care nothing about the people, and just listen to their corporate bosses (aka, EA) are the ones who are destroying the video game community

[moilami]

egervari wrote...

Dark Specie wrote...

egervari wrote...

If he wants to make an RPG that isn't quite like Origins... then why not make a new brand to try out your "experiment".

Because people might not buy it then? Or not as many, at least...  People are much more cautious when it comes to a totally new brand, whereas they're more likely to go straight for a popular, already established brand which already has a large fanbase. It's a risk, because you risk alienating the core fanbase from the first game of course, but you ensure a certain profit margin by doing that...

That doesn't make much sense. If we used your reasoning, you are taking the position that people wouldn't have bought Bioware's experiment of "Mass Effect" using your logic, but they did. Before Dragon Age was known, it was a risk as well, as games of this sort hadn't be released for 8 years? 10? Except people bought it in droves.

If Bioware wants to make new franchies/brands to try out experiments, they have proven time and again that they are able to and succeed most of the time. Jade Empire didn't work out so well, but they are 2 for 3.

If they wanted to try out this kind of combat and story telling, they could have easily experimented with Jade Empire 2 actually.

Not quite so well because nobody would had been interested of Jade Empire, and if it would had been like DA2 the interest would had shrunk even more.

[Dr. Impossible]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Face the facts Hardcore CRPGers are a dying audience. A company the size of Bioware/EA will not make enough money catering to that audience. It is a simple matter of economics. The hardcore CRPG market is shrinking. An independent firm maybe able to make money in that market, but do not expect the graphic quality or large scale scope like a DA:O. Most idependent CRPGs die before making it to market. The independents can subsist off of selling a few thousand copies maybe. A company the size of Bioware/EA cannot.

Remove the complex 3D engine, the voice acting and the cutscenes, and suddenly the workload has been decreased dramatically. 2D RPGs looked way better than DA:O anyway.

There is a middle ground between the big "AAA" titles and one-man indie games. Amnesia and the Penumbra series were made by a company of about five people with contractors.

Il Divo wrote...

That's a small reason why I enjoyed
Origins so much; it's Bioware's most complicated/original combat system
rather than a carbon copy.

DA:O's combat bored me to tears.

[moilami]

Merced652 wrote...

cachx wrote...

moilami wrote...
To say DA2 has evolved is to say I would evolve if I would lose one arm and one leg.

Are you aware how evolution works? If humans were to lose and arm and a leg due to evolution then it's because they were never needed in the first place to make us function. This is happening to games.

Maybe you need to rethink your rationale, or find a better analogy.

Oh is it? Then enlighten us as to what is needed to make an rpg a rpg? Uh oh, subjective subject is subjective. 
Dun Dun Dunnnnn. So bro, lets hear it. If i were to extrapolate, which i am a master of, then you're apparently saying every rpg system outside of story telling is superfluous and is never used to great effect; fundamentally a hinderance. So you're proposing that those rpg elements be cut out to make room for more story, which you no doubt offer up as the only thing that matters in rpgs. So, after all those rpg elements are taken out and all you have is a story, and maybe a dialogue system, it fundamentally ceases to be a rpg. 

Somewhat ironic, if you will, given Laidlaw's comment on genre death.

He is itself totally lost in buying the marketing and excuse term "evolution". He doesn't want RPGs. He doesn't even know what the word means. He want arcade adventure games. That is why he sees lack of diversity and dumbing down as "evolution".

[moilami]

AlanC9 wrote...

You've convinced me, Merced652. The RPG genre needs to die.

Like it would not had been dead already.

[AlanC9]

moilami wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You've convinced me, Merced652. The RPG genre needs to die.

Like it would not had been dead already.

Hey, I'm just trying to help evolution along.

[moilami]

AlanC9 wrote...

moilami wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You've convinced me, Merced652. The RPG genre needs to die.

Like it would not had been dead already.

Hey, I'm just trying to help evolution along.

Lol. Now that evolution hype begins to make sense.

Modifié par moilami, 22 mars 2011 - 08:12 .

[AkiKishi]

Gatt9 wrote...
You're absolutely right.  History,  those who do not learn it repeat it.

Microprose tried it with X-com,  hopping on the RTS bandwagon.  Lead them straight to liquidation.  SSI tried it with Panzer General,  and it lead straight to liquidation.  Interplay tried it with Baldur's Gate,  and it was a major contributer to liquidation.  Nearly every time a studio decides to hop on a bandwagon and convert their games over to the new fad format,  they end up gone.  That's what'll happen here.

Because as you put it,  these guys aren't here because they're RPG fans,  they're here because it's a fad and everyone tells them "(Insert game type) is cool and that's the only type of game to play!" 

So Bioware is tossing aside a relatively guaranteed revenue stream to go hop on the bandwagon,  like so many did before,  and they'll end up in the same place. 

Because all these people yelling "Evolution!  Immersion!  Cinematic!",  they'll all hop on the next buzz-word bandwagon out as the fad wears thin and a new one pops up.

Being successful is like being typcast as an actor. People who buy your products for the most part want more of the same, with small improvements, not sweeping changes.
Even FF which changes worlds and mechanics every game, keeps common elements. SE keep the radical stuff for spin offs and other IP's.
There is nothing evolutionary about this, we have had action adventures before, some work some don't. If you are trying to appeal to a more action oriented person, that's not going to happen if you bog them down in companions and dialogue, the two are not a natural fit.