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1UP Mike Laidlaw Interview "genre death"


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#726
TheKnave69

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I just wanted to address a couple of his points:

“I think ultimately, the framed narrative does a very good job of two things: one, it tells the story in a different way…So the framed narrative was something that mechanically helped us to create a sense of curiosity –“

A framed narrative was used for Leliana’s DLC for the original Origins. The reason that it worked, for me, is that I already knew Leliana’s ultimate fate (I had determined it prior to her tale). I had come to know her as an individual, and also had emotional invested in her, prior to revealing her back story. The issue with Hawke is that I had never come to know him/her prior to the game. A framed narrative is difficult to pull off in the media arts.

“…and kind of like Schrodinger's Cat, you may never actually know how much of that was entirely true…”

Why would ML compare a quantum physics thought experiment (incorrectly) in relation to this game? The original though experiment was to point out problems with quantum entanglement, especially with the blur. The actual wave function means that there is a 50/50 chance that the cat is alive. Looking at Winger’s Friend thought experiment also highlights the subjectivity of probability. If I flip a coin, let’s say, and look at the results, I know with 100% what the outcome is. If I ask you what the outcome is, you have a 50% probability of guessing what the outcome is… but I digress.

Well, really, what we were looking for was the idea of stronger and more iconic appearances for the followers…It also seemed something that would address a concern that we had coming out of Origins, where the vast majority of screenshots would have the party members looking almost identical. And so, you would lose the distinctiveness of stuff like the Chantry robes that Leliana wore when you first met her; or seeing Morrigan in any kind of Chantry robe just felt wrong to us. Or worse was seeing Wynne in any of those "of the Witch" outfits…it's something we're going to evaluate and see if there's a way we can get the best of both worlds.”

Just because he didn’t like how I dressed my characters, he decided to change it? Black Isle did the distinctive look with PS:T back in 1999 by having character specific armor that could be equipped. It 1) Keeps the distinctive look and 2) enables me to customize (to a degree) my companion armor.

“What we ran into was the situation where we had the ability to have more plots, more content, some side stuff that we knew would be optional, but we didn't have the assets to create entirely new levels for. So we took a long look at that, and said, "Is it important to have more content in the game, or is it important that the content be 100-percent unique?" So we tried to strike a balance, and tried to evaluate a good way to use this…”

I really don’t see where there was more content at the expense of level design. Between FO3 and FO:NV, there was a 24 month gap between release cycles 10/08-10/10, while between DA:O and DA:II, there was 15 months between releases 11/09-3/11. FO:NV provided just as much gameplay, and depth  as the original, with a shorter development cycle, while not having the same exact level design used multiple times. Sure there were re-used assets, but they were disguised in a way to make them look somewhat different from each other.

However, I do think that, as a genre, if RPGs can't evolve and can't change -- and I know people yell at me for daring to use the word "evolve" -- but if they can't change or experiment, then the genre itself is going to stagnate. Not only in terms of mechanics, like in rehashes and stuff, which I think we mostly manage to avoid, but the bigger problem is that if we don't have RPGs that present a different type of experience, then we kind of encapsulate our potential audience to people who enjoy just that experience, and we drive others away.”

Regarding RPG evolution: There is a difference between evolution and hybridization. If you look at something like the Gold box vs. the infinity engine, that was an evolution, as was the infinity engine vs. the Aurora engine, and the Aurora engine vs. the Eclipse engine. Also there was an evolution between the rules from D&D 2.5 to D&D 3.0 to a non D&D related set of rules. DA II uses the Unreal 3 engine (the same one used for the ME series). The basic tropes of the RPG remain. If you look at something like Morrowind vs. Oblivion or Fallout 1/2 vs. Fallout 3, there are evolutions, but there is also a strong design philosophy. For Morrowind and Oblivion, it is open world, dark fantasy, with a vast number of side quests (large and small). For the Fallout series, there is the post apocalyptic setting, dark humor, and the multiple ways of resolving issues. Both of those games also have moral ambiguity and player choice. Even the sandbox games, like GTA:IV and RDR have strong design decisions that build on their predecessors’ strengths, rather than divorcing themselves from them

Hybridization of genres can lead to a synergy, but more often than not results in a product that is inferior to either. Look at a mule. It’s neither a donkey or a horse. Sure it’s an animal you can ride, but it’s mostly sterile.

“In of itself, that runs the risk of genre death…You end up in a case where, the genre eventually burns out, or falls flat, or becomes too risky to take any risks in development.. So I think there is absolutely room to make an isometric six-player tactical combat RPG, but we shouldn't only be making those. Because if we do, we're going to get very self-referential, and potentially not see any RPGs coming out in the future.”

First, I think that this shows a bit of contempt for the RPG fanbase, by saying basically, “Computer RPG gamers hate change, they want the same thing over and over,” which is untrue, overly broad and honestly, somewhat offensive to me. Nobody asked for an isometric six-player tactical RPG. Change is not inherently bad, but a strong sense of design is vital. There are genres of games for a reason; it makes it easier to select the game I want to play. If a game is labeled as a 4X, I don’t want to play a FPS, if a game is marketed as a RPG, I don’t want to play a TPS. If a game is sold as a RTS, I don’t want to play a RPG. By strongly identifying with the genre, the customer knows what they are buying, both good and bad, however, some of the most successful games. Look at the sales figures for DA:O, FO3, Starcraft II, etc. One of the things that keep genre’s alive is the gaming community: Releasing tools to modify the game, mods, tweaks, after market community patches etc. Heck, some games have a 10-20 year play life due to all of the consumer created content.

“Because I think some people felt a little bit detached because, frankly, it's not a game without a big looming evil dragon, demon, or demigod at the end; which creates an almost unexpected story mechanic, and one that I'm honestly very proud to have tried, and think we managed to break the mold with a reasonable degree of success.”

Not all games have to have a “big looming evil dragon, demon or demigod at the end.” This statement is, I feel, again somewhat contemptuous of the RPG audience by making a broad generalization of the genre. Going back to PS:T, that is about as personal a story that can be told, “What can change the nature of a man?” In general, what I’ve found, is that what makes an RPG great to me is coming from humble origins, who gets swept up in great events, and developing my avatar into someone who shapes the world around them. What I saw in DA II was a person of humble origins, who goes out and does a bunch of “side quests” (which are necessary to meet the requirements of the main quest), and we jump forward 3 years while people talk about how awesome I’ve become. The cardinal rule in movies is “don’t tell, show.” One of the cardinal rules in RPGs, I believe, is “don’t tell or show, let me do it.”

“So for me, Dragon Age's two core strengths are: on the gameplay side, it's about the party, working together, to achieve a kind of tactical mastery -- that's something that I think is key to the Dragon Age franchise.”

Tactical mastery and party control are certainly big factor, but primarily focus on combat and are really about game mechanics less than gameplay, which could be a reason that DA II is so combat focused. I think from a gameplay perspective, the most important thing for me is the connection between me and the game, the ability to dramatically effect the outcome of the game, overcoming challenges in multiple ways, and not because I wield the biggest stick, my connection to the plot, etc. Tactical combat is important to me, yes, but secondary to the overall experience.

“From a world perspective, these are living breathing countries to the point where I have a four-foot wide map of the continent hanging in my living room,”

I felt that Kirkwall was an extremely empty and stagnant place. It wasn’t living or breathing to me. During the course of the game, nothing felt changed. There was no day/night cycle (a toggle? Really?), no weather, the NPCs didn’t feel like they had lives outside the game. I also didn’t feel that I was part of a massive world. With only a limited number of places to explore outside of Kirkwall I felt confined to the point of claustrophobia.

Well, that’s my 2 cents.

Modifié par TheKnave69, 22 mars 2011 - 03:43 .


#727
Nick Fox

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Taleroth wrote...

I support changes to RPGs (see signature for my philosophy). I have issues with elements of Dragon Age 2 and Bioware's design philosophy in general. The need for change is not among them.

Frankly, I would not buy Baldur's Gate 2 if it were released in this day and age. Unless it also included Wild Mages.


Dont agree with changes to rpg's (the way DA series and BW) is going at all. Can (mostly) good with trying some new things to see what can be done. That said always stay true to your roots though, without that....nothing good will ever come out of you and i truly belive that. Beeing historyless (is that the right word?) will almost always lead to repeating misstakes all over again. In the same way it can have its advantages too but that is without an established fanbase imo.

Another note, saw you mention Monkey island, great adventure game indeed, there is a gengre that needs some love. Miss those in fact and dont want the same thing to happen to rpg's!

#728
Nick Fox

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

by that logic, before you discovered RPGs you didn't like them. Then someone made an RPG that you like, so you changed from not liking RPGs to liking RPGs. which means you're wrong (said in all due respect)


Rpgs that I liked were made for fans of rpgs, not for people who only enjoy shooters or something.

This is what I meant, people who like rpgs enjoy them because they are somewhat complex.

By making pseudo rpgs you annoy those people and might not get much people who enjoy simpler games.


I happen to know a lot of people who enjoy both shooters and RPGs. And how do you know that the RPGs that you liked were made solely for the RPG fans? How do you know there wasn't some ulterior motive to get part of a new fanbase, even if it was never explicitly stated (like Bioware did I think)?

There is no rulebook on what constitutes an RPG. Because it varies. It's all opinion on what's a true RPG and what isn't. I see DA2 as a true RPG, albeit with its' flaws. But then again, all video games have their flaws. These flaws don't make a game not among its genre. They only diminish the quality of how amazing it could have been.

And someone should not be excluded from playing RPGs just because all they've played were shooters. Maybe by playing what you call a "pseudo rpg" they discover the "true rpgs".


If people want to try out different gengre's they are free to do that and I think its great if more do.
What i never will agree on is changing a gengre just to make it easier for those that never tried it (the way DA 2 is done for ex). its up to the individual to try new things out and not only developers! If it doesnt suit you why on earth should those who love that specific gengre suffer for it ? I dont get it, i dont see racing, FPS or whatever making things easier in general for other crowds, so why should rpg's ? Just stuopid to ****** on the fans you have and that I stand for.

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#729
Monica83

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TheKnave69 wrote...

I just wanted to address a couple of his points:

“I think ultimately, the framed narrative does a very good job of two things: one, it tells the story in a different way…So the framed narrative was something that mechanically helped us to create a sense of curiosity –“

A framed narrative was used for Leliana’s DLC for the original Origins. The reason that it worked, for me, is that I already knew Leliana’s ultimate fate (I had determined it prior to her tale). I had come to know her as an individual, and also had emotional invested in her, prior to revealing her back story. The issue with Hawke is that I had never come to know him/her prior to the game. A framed narrative is difficult to pull off in the media arts.

“…and kind of like Schrodinger's Cat, you may never actually know how much of that was entirely true…”

Why would ML compare a quantum physics thought experiment (incorrectly) in relation to this game? The original though experiment was to point out problems with quantum entanglement, especially with the blur. The actual wave function means that there is a 50/50 chance that the cat is alive. Looking at Winger’s Friend thought experiment also highlights the subjectivity of probability. If I flip a coin, let’s say, and look at the results, I know with 100% what the outcome is. If I ask you what the outcome is, you have a 50% probability of guessing what the outcome is… but I digress.

Well, really, what we were looking for was the idea of stronger and more iconic appearances for the followers…It also seemed something that would address a concern that we had coming out of Origins, where the vast majority of screenshots would have the party members looking almost identical. And so, you would lose the distinctiveness of stuff like the Chantry robes that Leliana wore when you first met her; or seeing Morrigan in any kind of Chantry robe just felt wrong to us. Or worse was seeing Wynne in any of those "of the Witch" outfits…it's something we're going to evaluate and see if there's a way we can get the best of both worlds.”

Just because he didn’t like how I dressed my characters, he decided to change it? Black Isle did the distinctive look with PS:T back in 1999 by having character specific armor that could be equipped. It 1) Keeps the distinctive look and 2) enables me to customize (to a degree) my companion armor.

“What we ran into was the situation where we had the ability to have more plots, more content, some side stuff that we knew would be optional, but we didn't have the assets to create entirely new levels for. So we took a long look at that, and said, "Is it important to have more content in the game, or is it important that the content be 100-percent unique?" So we tried to strike a balance, and tried to evaluate a good way to use this…”

I really don’t see where there was more content at the expense of level design. Between FO3 and FO:NV, there was a 24 month gap between release cycles 10/08-10/10, while between DA:O and DA:II, there was 15 months between releases 11/09-3/11. FO:NV provided just as much gameplay, and depth  as the original, with a shorter development cycle, while not having the same exact level design used multiple times. Sure there were re-used assets, but they were disguised in a way to make them look somewhat different from each other.

However, I do think that, as a genre, if RPGs can't evolve and can't change -- and I know people yell at me for daring to use the word "evolve" -- but if they can't change or experiment, then the genre itself is going to stagnate. Not only in terms of mechanics, like in rehashes and stuff, which I think we mostly manage to avoid, but the bigger problem is that if we don't have RPGs that present a different type of experience, then we kind of encapsulate our potential audience to people who enjoy just that experience, and we drive others away.”

Regarding RPG evolution: There is a difference between evolution and hybridization. If you look at something like the Gold box vs. the infinity engine, that was an evolution, as was the infinity engine vs. the Aurora engine, and the Aurora engine vs. the Eclipse engine. Also there was an evolution between the rules from D&D 2.5 to D&D 3.0 to a non D&D related set of rules. DA II uses the Unreal 3 engine (the same one used for the ME series). The basic tropes of the RPG remain. If you look at something like Morrowind vs. Oblivion or Fallout 1/2 vs. Fallout 3, there are evolutions, but there is also a strong design philosophy. For Morrowind and Oblivion, it is open world, dark fantasy, with a vast number of side quests (large and small). For the Fallout series, there is the post apocalyptic setting, dark humor, and the multiple ways of resolving issues. Both of those games also have moral ambiguity and player choice. Even the sandbox games, like GTA:IV and RDR have strong design decisions that build on their predecessors’ strengths, rather than divorcing themselves from them

Hybridization of genres can lead to a synergy, but more often than not results in a product that is inferior to either. Look at a mule. It’s neither a donkey or a horse. Sure it’s an animal you can ride, but it’s mostly sterile.

“In of itself, that runs the risk of genre death…You end up in a case where, the genre eventually burns out, or falls flat, or becomes too risky to take any risks in development.. So I think there is absolutely room to make an isometric six-player tactical combat RPG, but we shouldn't only be making those. Because if we do, we're going to get very self-referential, and potentially not see any RPGs coming out in the future.”

First, I think that this shows a bit of contempt for the RPG fanbase, by saying basically, “Computer RPG gamers hate change, they want the same thing over and over,” which is untrue, overly broad and honestly, somewhat offensive to me. Nobody asked for an isometric six-player tactical RPG. Change is not inherently bad, but a strong sense of design is vital. There are genres of games for a reason; it makes it easier to select the game I want to play. If a game is labeled as a 4X, I don’t want to play a FPS, if a game is marketed as a RPG, I don’t want to play a TPS. If a game is sold as a RTS, I don’t want to play a RPG. By strongly identifying with the genre, the customer knows what they are buying, both good and bad, however, some of the most successful games. Look at the sales figures for DA:O, FO3, Starcraft II, etc. One of the things that keep genre’s alive is the gaming community: Releasing tools to modify the game, mods, tweaks, after market community patches etc. Heck, some games have a 10-20 year play life due to all of the consumer created content.

“Because I think some people felt a little bit detached because, frankly, it's not a game without a big looming evil dragon, demon, or demigod at the end; which creates an almost unexpected story mechanic, and one that I'm honestly very proud to have tried, and think we managed to break the mold with a reasonable degree of success.”

Not all games have to have a “big looming evil dragon, demon or demigod at the end.” This statement is, I feel, again somewhat contemptuous of the RPG audience by making a broad generalization of the genre. Going back to PS:T, that is about as personal a story that can be told, “What can change the nature of a man?” In general, what I’ve found, is that what makes an RPG great to me is coming from humble origins, who gets swept up in great events, and developing my avatar into someone who shapes the world around them. What I saw in DA II was a person of humble origins, who goes out and does a bunch of “side quests” (which are necessary to meet the requirements of the main quest), and we jump forward 3 years while people talk about how awesome I’ve become. The cardinal rule in movies is “don’t tell, show.” One of the cardinal rules in RPGs, I believe, is “don’t tell or show, let me do it.”

“So for me, Dragon Age's two core strengths are: on the gameplay side, it's about the party, working together, to achieve a kind of tactical mastery -- that's something that I think is key to the Dragon Age franchise.”

Tactical mastery and party control are certainly big factor, but primarily focus on combat and are really about game mechanics less than gameplay, which could be a reason that DA II is so combat focused. I think from a gameplay perspective, the most important thing for me is the connection between me and the game, the ability to dramatically effect the outcome of the game, overcoming challenges in multiple ways, and not because I wield the biggest stick, my connection to the plot, etc. Tactical combat is important to me, yes, but secondary to the overall experience.

“From a world perspective, these are living breathing countries to the point where I have a four-foot wide map of the continent hanging in my living room,”

I felt that Kirkwall was an extremely empty and stagnant place. It wasn’t living or breathing to me. During the course of the game, nothing felt changed. There was no day/night cycle (a toggle? Really?), no weather, the NPCs didn’t feel like they had lives outside the game. I also didn’t feel that I was part of a massive world. With only a limited number of places to explore outside of Kirkwall I felt confined to the point of claustrophobia.

Well, that’s my 2 cents.


This is a really nice post

#730
TheKnave69

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Monica83 wrote...

This is a really nice post


Thanks.  I try to be thoughtful about what I post.  I appreciate the feedback.

#731
Gaiseric82

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So basically the only way for RPGs to survive (or 'evolve' as Mike Laidlaw so eloquently put it) is to dumb itself down and 'streamline' (because of course the average gamer is a moron right?).  Remove inventory items and do away with the 'fashion show' dress-up party right?... What else?  Re-use scenes over and over and over again, and leave the rest up to DLC?

Interesting definition for an evolution.

Suffice to say I'm thankful Bethesda's still around... cause Bioware's truly lost its direction.

#732
moilami

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Someone else will take BW's market share.

#733
moilami

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TheKnave69 wrote...

“…and kind of like Schrodinger's Cat, you may never actually know how much of that was entirely true…”

Why would ML compare a quantum physics thought experiment (incorrectly) in relation to this game? The original though experiment was to point out problems with quantum entanglement, especially with the blur. The actual wave function means that there is a 50/50 chance that the cat is alive. Looking at Winger’s Friend thought experiment also highlights the subjectivity of probability. If I flip a coin, let’s say, and look at the results, I know with 100% what the outcome is. If I ask you what the outcome is, you have a 50% probability of guessing what the outcome is… but I digress.


Haven't heard of that cat, should google of it. Good posting you made.

I have been thinking.

Instead of EULA players would have to read "What is RP" before they could install the game.

The game would be very diverse and complex with freedom in exploration and no level scaling. In loading screens there would be texts like "u don't need to pick up everything if u don't want 2", "ask ur in game momma to hold ur hand if u don't know where 2 go", "select automatical dialogues if u don't know what 2 say", "if everything else fails, use ur Banhammer to instantly kill all enemies".

Charisma or leadership skill would be taken back and both your team and enemies would have moral checks and if they fail they would for example flee.

(These sucky pseudo RPGs don't even have that anymore.)


Edit: Seriously, devs should just check how BGs, Nethack, ADOM, and Fallouts were done and do the same with modern graphics.

Modifié par moilami, 22 mars 2011 - 06:56 .


#734
Sylvius the Mad

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Personally, I think Schrödinger's Cat has much broader epistemological implications beyond just quantum mechanics, but that's neither here nor there.

Those of us who disagree with many of DA2's design decisions are not calling for BioWare to make the same game again and again. But we are calling for them not to replace design features with new features which clearly fail to offer benefits comparable to the old features.

Some new features are good. I think DAO's combat system was the best one BioWare has designed, which means I think it was better than BG's combat, NWN's combat, and KotOR's combat. That's a newer feature surpassing older features.

I also like DA2's overall plot design, though I think it's just a revival of a design we haven't seen since BG (the directionless opening). So that's clearly evidence that they will go back and use features from their older games where they think it is appropriate.

My ideal BioWare RPG would look something like this:

World design: BG
Plot design: BG, DA2
Combat design: DAO, NWN
Party control: BG
User-interface: NWN
Side-quest design: BG, BG2, ME
Inventory system: NWN
Ammunition mechanic: BG, NWN
Companions: DAO, KotOR, BG

And there are some areas where I think they're clearly getting better. I think their Character Generation/Portrait system is improving. I could make good female characters in ME, I could make good characters but not generally good portaits in DAO, and I can make great portraits in DA2 but the head designs aren't my favourite. They're not quite at the level where I'm content not to be able to impoort my own 2D portrait, but they're close.

#735
aries1001

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I don't why Laidlaw is talking about genre death. It is true that whatever does not evolve, will eventually die out. It almost happened to the traditional adventure games (like Monkey Island, Grim Fandango and Syberia). And it was because the market grew bigger - especially after 2001-2002. Troika (ever head of those guys?) was game company that made three or four games. Their last game was, I think Temple of Elemental Evil or Arcanum. And they sold horribly - for that time. They only sold, I think around 400,000 copies. However, in 2002, this wasn't enough to be profitable - for the publishers.
If you need to blame someone, blame the dot.com bubble around 1999-2001.

There seem to be, at least on the Bioware Senior Manager team, a fear of anxiety for going the way Troika and Black Isle e.g. extinct. And that's why they look for ways to change and improve, evolve, their games. This time they changed the combat. And from the demo, I played (as I sadly don't have the funds right now to buy the game), I do like the pace of the combat. I also like the fact that you have to think tactically in combat, you can actually use the ground (soil), land, to win the fights in this game.  

As for the story in this game,  I think Bioware should have gone all the way e.g. cut the rogue and the mage choice for character. Hawke should then only have been a human noble, male or female. This would have made much more sense, seeing as the Hawke's do have an Estate in Kirkwall. As for the armour, it would have been a good idea to go the Planescape: Torment way as another poster mentioned e.g. making armour that only fits the companions.
And do away with the -ahem- junk e.g. loot. I, for one, do not have time anymore to spend 2 hours just selling loot items to merchants. It would make much more sense to have armours that fit the companions. Aveline could have her shield as her signature, the rogue in the party could have a pair of dual wieldings daggers as his or her signature, the party mage could have a Mage Staff as signature. What I'm saying here is that if you want to tell the story of a man or woman, then do it wholeheartedly - go all the way. But most of all - be honest about it.

And in a 4 party rpg (3 npcs+1pc) do we really need 6 or 8 characters to choose from? And if we do, why not make it so that certain npcs follow us, the player character, for a time and then breaks away from us - if it fits the story. And if you, Bioware, needs the story to end in certain way, then go for it. Take it all they way - and show us the ending you want to have. I can understand why you'll need your game, DA2, to have a certain ending because you (maybe?) want to set up relevant plot points or story points for the next game...


As for the DA2 engine:


The DA2 game engine is can be seen here from this thread:

http://forums.obsidi...t=495&start=495


Infinity -> BG I and BG II + expansions
Auroa/ Odyssey -> NWN and Knights of the Old Republic + expansions
JE engine -> Jade Empire
DA/Lyceum engine -> DA:O and DA II and expansions
Unreal -> ME 1-3


As for adventure games like Monkey Island, they're still going strong. And with a twist of fate or irony it is actually due to consoles; there's a HD version out on Xbox 360 now of Beyond Good & Evil, an old Monkey Island game can also be found at Xbox Live. The new Sam&Max games sort of revived the genre as did the new(er) Sherlock Holmes games or the FBI Confidential games. As I said, we in the adventure game community sometimes discuss whether or not Heavy Rain is an adventure game, because some don't see cinematic having a place in game. I'm all for cinematic in games, as long as it enhances the gameplay and fits the story being told. And the Nintendo DSi  and now the Ipad also seems to be good for traditional adventure games. If you know German, you should really try out the German demo for Black Mirror 3...

Adventure games are character-driven games just like Bioware games have always been, at least to me. And from what I understand, DA2's focus on Hawke's story is not any different than say the character-driven story of a character seeking out to find his or her place in the world (as the main character does in the BG games).

Personally, I like that DA2 has no secret order, no ancient evil, no secret organisation to join - just a story about a man that becomes the champion (of the people) of Kirkwall.

edit:
fixed link

Modifié par aries1001, 22 mars 2011 - 08:00 .


#736
TMZuk

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TheKnave69 wrote...

I just wanted to address a couple of his points:

“I think ultimately, the framed narrative does a very good job of two things: one, it tells the story in a different way…So the framed narrative was something that mechanically helped us to create a sense of curiosity –“

A framed narrative was used for Leliana’s DLC for the original Origins. The reason that it worked, for me, is that I already knew Leliana’s ultimate fate (I had determined it prior to her tale). I had come to know her as an individual, and also had emotional invested in her, prior to revealing her back story. The issue with Hawke is that I had never come to know him/her prior to the game. A framed narrative is difficult to pull off in the media arts.

“…and kind of like Schrodinger's Cat, you may never actually know how much of that was entirely true…”

Why would ML compare a quantum physics thought experiment (incorrectly) in relation to this game? The original though experiment was to point out problems with quantum entanglement, especially with the blur. The actual wave function means that there is a 50/50 chance that the cat is alive. Looking at Winger’s Friend thought experiment also highlights the subjectivity of probability. If I flip a coin, let’s say, and look at the results, I know with 100% what the outcome is. If I ask you what the outcome is, you have a 50% probability of guessing what the outcome is… but I digress.

Well, really, what we were looking for was the idea of stronger and more iconic appearances for the followers…It also seemed something that would address a concern that we had coming out of Origins, where the vast majority of screenshots would have the party members looking almost identical. And so, you would lose the distinctiveness of stuff like the Chantry robes that Leliana wore when you first met her; or seeing Morrigan in any kind of Chantry robe just felt wrong to us. Or worse was seeing Wynne in any of those "of the Witch" outfits…it's something we're going to evaluate and see if there's a way we can get the best of both worlds.”

Just because he didn’t like how I dressed my characters, he decided to change it? Black Isle did the distinctive look with PS:T back in 1999 by having character specific armor that could be equipped. It 1) Keeps the distinctive look and 2) enables me to customize (to a degree) my companion armor.

“What we ran into was the situation where we had the ability to have more plots, more content, some side stuff that we knew would be optional, but we didn't have the assets to create entirely new levels for. So we took a long look at that, and said, "Is it important to have more content in the game, or is it important that the content be 100-percent unique?" So we tried to strike a balance, and tried to evaluate a good way to use this…”

I really don’t see where there was more content at the expense of level design. Between FO3 and FO:NV, there was a 24 month gap between release cycles 10/08-10/10, while between DA:O and DA:II, there was 15 months between releases 11/09-3/11. FO:NV provided just as much gameplay, and depth  as the original, with a shorter development cycle, while not having the same exact level design used multiple times. Sure there were re-used assets, but they were disguised in a way to make them look somewhat different from each other.

However, I do think that, as a genre, if RPGs can't evolve and can't change -- and I know people yell at me for daring to use the word "evolve" -- but if they can't change or experiment, then the genre itself is going to stagnate. Not only in terms of mechanics, like in rehashes and stuff, which I think we mostly manage to avoid, but the bigger problem is that if we don't have RPGs that present a different type of experience, then we kind of encapsulate our potential audience to people who enjoy just that experience, and we drive others away.”

Regarding RPG evolution: There is a difference between evolution and hybridization. If you look at something like the Gold box vs. the infinity engine, that was an evolution, as was the infinity engine vs. the Aurora engine, and the Aurora engine vs. the Eclipse engine. Also there was an evolution between the rules from D&D 2.5 to D&D 3.0 to a non D&D related set of rules. DA II uses the Unreal 3 engine (the same one used for the ME series). The basic tropes of the RPG remain. If you look at something like Morrowind vs. Oblivion or Fallout 1/2 vs. Fallout 3, there are evolutions, but there is also a strong design philosophy. For Morrowind and Oblivion, it is open world, dark fantasy, with a vast number of side quests (large and small). For the Fallout series, there is the post apocalyptic setting, dark humor, and the multiple ways of resolving issues. Both of those games also have moral ambiguity and player choice. Even the sandbox games, like GTA:IV and RDR have strong design decisions that build on their predecessors’ strengths, rather than divorcing themselves from them

Hybridization of genres can lead to a synergy, but more often than not results in a product that is inferior to either. Look at a mule. It’s neither a donkey or a horse. Sure it’s an animal you can ride, but it’s mostly sterile.

“In of itself, that runs the risk of genre death…You end up in a case where, the genre eventually burns out, or falls flat, or becomes too risky to take any risks in development.. So I think there is absolutely room to make an isometric six-player tactical combat RPG, but we shouldn't only be making those. Because if we do, we're going to get very self-referential, and potentially not see any RPGs coming out in the future.”

First, I think that this shows a bit of contempt for the RPG fanbase, by saying basically, “Computer RPG gamers hate change, they want the same thing over and over,” which is untrue, overly broad and honestly, somewhat offensive to me. Nobody asked for an isometric six-player tactical RPG. Change is not inherently bad, but a strong sense of design is vital. There are genres of games for a reason; it makes it easier to select the game I want to play. If a game is labeled as a 4X, I don’t want to play a FPS, if a game is marketed as a RPG, I don’t want to play a TPS. If a game is sold as a RTS, I don’t want to play a RPG. By strongly identifying with the genre, the customer knows what they are buying, both good and bad, however, some of the most successful games. Look at the sales figures for DA:O, FO3, Starcraft II, etc. One of the things that keep genre’s alive is the gaming community: Releasing tools to modify the game, mods, tweaks, after market community patches etc. Heck, some games have a 10-20 year play life due to all of the consumer created content.

“Because I think some people felt a little bit detached because, frankly, it's not a game without a big looming evil dragon, demon, or demigod at the end; which creates an almost unexpected story mechanic, and one that I'm honestly very proud to have tried, and think we managed to break the mold with a reasonable degree of success.”

Not all games have to have a “big looming evil dragon, demon or demigod at the end.” This statement is, I feel, again somewhat contemptuous of the RPG audience by making a broad generalization of the genre. Going back to PS:T, that is about as personal a story that can be told, “What can change the nature of a man?” In general, what I’ve found, is that what makes an RPG great to me is coming from humble origins, who gets swept up in great events, and developing my avatar into someone who shapes the world around them. What I saw in DA II was a person of humble origins, who goes out and does a bunch of “side quests” (which are necessary to meet the requirements of the main quest), and we jump forward 3 years while people talk about how awesome I’ve become. The cardinal rule in movies is “don’t tell, show.” One of the cardinal rules in RPGs, I believe, is “don’t tell or show, let me do it.”

“So for me, Dragon Age's two core strengths are: on the gameplay side, it's about the party, working together, to achieve a kind of tactical mastery -- that's something that I think is key to the Dragon Age franchise.”

Tactical mastery and party control are certainly big factor, but primarily focus on combat and are really about game mechanics less than gameplay, which could be a reason that DA II is so combat focused. I think from a gameplay perspective, the most important thing for me is the connection between me and the game, the ability to dramatically effect the outcome of the game, overcoming challenges in multiple ways, and not because I wield the biggest stick, my connection to the plot, etc. Tactical combat is important to me, yes, but secondary to the overall experience.

“From a world perspective, these are living breathing countries to the point where I have a four-foot wide map of the continent hanging in my living room,”

I felt that Kirkwall was an extremely empty and stagnant place. It wasn’t living or breathing to me. During the course of the game, nothing felt changed. There was no day/night cycle (a toggle? Really?), no weather, the NPCs didn’t feel like they had lives outside the game. I also didn’t feel that I was part of a massive world. With only a limited number of places to explore outside of Kirkwall I felt confined to the point of claustrophobia.

Well, that’s my 2 cents.


This is the best post I have read in... well, probably ever. :)

#737
Lotion Soronarr

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With every new interview, I lose more and more respect for mr. Lidlaw.

He has gone into strawman territory and subtly insulting the critics...and then provides bs "explanations" and throws buzzwords around.

#738
TheKnave69

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aries1001 wrote...


Infinity -> BG I and BG II + expansions
Auroa/ Odyssey -> NWN and Knights of the Old Republic + expansions
JE engine -> Jade Empire
DA/Lyceum engine -> DA:O and DA II and expansions
Unreal -> ME 1-3



My mistake.  DA:O uses the Eclipse engine.  DA II uses the Lycium engine (which is heavily modified).

#739
supertouch

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dragon age: origins is critically acclaimed and bioware's highest grossing game, so whose attention are they trying to grab?

#740
DocDoomII

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supertouch wrote...

dragon age: origins is critically acclaimed and bioware's highest grossing game, so whose attention are they trying to grab?


the attention of people who usually play games where all there is to it is "if it moves, kill it!"

#741
MonkeyLungs

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supertouch wrote...

dragon age: origins is critically acclaimed and bioware's highest grossing game, so whose attention are they trying to grab?


It seems that Mr. Laidlaw thinks it didn't sell enough and that the fans who supported are not a strong enough base to really help Bioware survive. Also from an artistic standpoint the old fans are stifling their creativity anyway.

#742
TheKnave69

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Personally, I think Schrödinger's Cat has much broader epistemological implications beyond just quantum mechanics, but that's neither here nor there.


I agree, I was just being a bit snarky.

#743
Sharuko

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Seems like he is making excuses for Dragon Age 2. He also said something along the lines of "people don't like change" in another interview.

I am pretty sure I read DA:O sold more than Mass Effect 2.

Hopefully Skyrim and/or the Witcher brings RPGs back to the RPG loving crowd.

Turning your back on your fans is never a good idea.

#744
Blastback

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Sharuko wrote...



I am pretty sure I read DA:O sold more than Mass Effect 2.
.


Your right.

Though some attribute that to it being released simultaniously on PC PS3 and the 360, while ME2 was initially on just 2 platforms.

Modifié par Blastback, 23 mars 2011 - 12:26 .


#745
Sandmanifest

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Sharuko wrote...

Seems like he is making excuses for Dragon Age 2. He also said something along the lines of "people don't like change" in another interview.

I am pretty sure I read DA:O sold more than Mass Effect 2.

Hopefully Skyrim and/or the Witcher brings RPGs back to the RPG loving crowd.

Turning your back on your fans is never a good idea.


Morrowind > Oblivion
but hopefully
Skyrim > Oblivion?

I certainly have more faith in Bethesda so I'm not worried about it. I mean, I was a little put off by certain visual aspects of Oblivion but the game I loved was there.

And about turning your back on your fans (purposefully or not) hopefully they learn from this. If so, I'll be overjoyed, but if not, I'm done with Bioware. We'll see though. I certainly believe it IS possible to reach a sweet spot.

#746
mjboldy

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People seem to not want RPG's to change and to keep the same old formula. Yes then we can suffer the same fate that FPS games are suffering now (Get to this point and KILL KILL KILL. Repeat).

#747
Sharuko

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

It seems in this industry you're damned for taking risks and damned for not taking them. I think all he's saying is he'd rather be damned for taking them. I can respect that. Doesn't mean I'm going to like every change made, or they'll always hit the mark, but it's not some grand conspiracy or personal attack on vague veteran/hardcore/loyal fans.

Note that I say nothing about the relative quality of DA2 in this post. Only that I think that this thread misrepresents his position.


I compelety disagree, good games that take risks will succeed.  Bad games that take risks don't.

Speaking of DA2 solely, I don't see where it took risks.  The negative reviews of the game have nothing to do with risks but other factors.

#748
Sharuko

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Sandmanifest wrote...

Sharuko wrote...

Seems like he is making excuses for Dragon Age 2. He also said something along the lines of "people don't like change" in another interview.

I am pretty sure I read DA:O sold more than Mass Effect 2.

Hopefully Skyrim and/or the Witcher brings RPGs back to the RPG loving crowd.

Turning your back on your fans is never a good idea.


Morrowind > Oblivion
but hopefully
Skyrim > Oblivion?

I certainly have more faith in Bethesda so I'm not worried about it. I mean, I was a little put off by certain visual aspects of Oblivion but the game I loved was there.

And about turning your back on your fans (purposefully or not) hopefully they learn from this. If so, I'll be overjoyed, but if not, I'm done with Bioware. We'll see though. I certainly believe it IS possible to reach a sweet spot.


I just wish gaming companies would focus on making good games and not necessarily how they can hit the widest audience.  DA:O was a huge success, why be greedy and try to go for more?  Maybe it is the EA influence?

I still have faith in BioWare since my two favorite games of all time are made by them.  But if games like DA2 is what they will produce in the future, I personally am out.

#749
mjboldy

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Sharuko wrote...

Seems like he is making excuses for Dragon Age 2. He also said something along the lines of "people don't like change" in another interview.

I am pretty sure I read DA:O sold more than Mass Effect 2.

Hopefully Skyrim and/or the Witcher brings RPGs back to the RPG loving crowd.

Turning your back on your fans is never a good idea.


There's a couple things wrong with that statement:

  • They had two different settings and styles. Maybe more people like a fantasy setting with swords and shields than Sci-fi with guns and biotic powers.
  • DA:O released on PC, Xbox 360 and PS3 day 1 with Mac releasing very soon after. ME2 released on only PC and Xbox 360 with the PS3 version releasing pretty much a year afterwards.
Point? I don't see it.

#750
Sharuko

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1) You are assuming what people prefer. People also like shooters, look at how well New Vegas sold.

2) That is true.

My point is you can stick to making sold RPGs that don't have to be dumbed down and still sell well.