832 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex109222]

Brenus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Dont forget the Witcher 2!

out on my birthday I might add!

Modifié par Alex109222, 20 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[Rawgrim]

Brenus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Dont forget the Witcher 2!

the Witcher 2 will sell alot less than Skyrim. Its a PC only game, after all.

[Forsakerr]

Alex109222 wrote...

Insom wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Well New Vegas sold 5 million copies already. It has a ton more depth than DA2 that's for sure.

New Vegas was awesome. Has alot of heart when Obsidian is behind it. And there is no company like EA brething down it's neck to appeal to the larger audiance, what Obsidian did was appeal to the olf Fallout and Fallout 2 audiance, and it worked, lots are calling it Fallout 3: New Vegas.

i own F:NV , not saying it's a bad game but i had pre ordered it and got the CE even bought the CE strategy guide but with all the bugs it had that was game breaking their first patches did not make things better so i stopped playing before even completing the game once.I mean i could have finished the game anyways but the random CTDs where i lost hours of game play because the save were either corrupt or i had forgot to save since a while and companions quests breaking up or other bugs i gave up.  
 
Got the SE for DA2,CE strategy guide this game has less bugs but i did not even complete the game either, so comparing the two one was too bugged so i could complete the game  and the other has no game breaking bugs and i did not complete it too, sad if you ask me 

[upsettingshorts]

The Corporate wrote...

Laidlaw put down some transparent marketing patter to justify his attempt to fundamentally alter a series in the persuit of $$$ and you've fallen for it wholesale.

And you missed all the ways DAO is significantly different from KOTOR, NWN, Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate 2, Baldur's Gate 1... - all BioWare games that came before it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 mars 2011 - 07:53 .

[Morroian]

enrogae wrote...

The thing is that all of the "changes" they've made in the past have had one core principle behind them... one question Bioware has asked when they made the changes.  "What can we do to tell the story better and make it a more personal, and enjoyable, experience."  I can't imagine they asked that with DA:2, because they didn't tell the story better nor make it a more personal, and enjoyable, experience.  

Mileage varies, I think they did exactly that.

[TJSolo]

He's talking about creative stagnation, guys. If you make the same game over and over again only the same people will buy it. This isn't anything new from Bioware, I can't think of a single game they've made that wasn't significantly different in a number of ways from its predecessor. Each time some fans jumped ship, and others jumped on.

Bioware is only one company putting out a few series of games every odd year. The type of games they normally made fought back the stagnation of the industry. Being consistent in the kind of product that is provided is what has vaulted the sales figures of games from RockStar, Bethesda, Valve, and Capcom.Each iteration of those companies flagship games were about improving upon their proven formula in order to retain existing customer Gaining new customers each iteration is the marketing department's job not the developer.

The problems with the Madden series is that the promises and problems of the series have not been addressed since 2005.

It seems in this industry you're damned for taking risks and damned for not taking them. I think all he's saying is he'd rather be damned for taking them. I can respect that.

I can't respect it because it seems to be a complete 180 from their intents pre-EA buyout.
The years BW was developing DAO the idea they repeated for the franchise was that it would be a throwback to their roots series. Doing a bait and switch is not respectable at all.

[Alex109222]

Rawgrim wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Dont forget the Witcher 2!

the Witcher 2 will sell alot less than Skyrim. Its a PC only game, after all.

True, it appeals to a specific audiance who will continue to buy their games, steady money flow if you ask me. CD Projeckt are the Demon Souls playing polak RPG developers that hardcore RPG players LOVE

[Thalorin1919]

I hope he's still the Lead Designer for DA3. This guy knows what he's doing, imo.

[enrogae]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Corporate wrote...

Laidlaw put down some transparent marketing patter to justify his attempt to fundamentally alter a series in the persuit of $$$ and you've fallen for it wholesale.

And you missed all the ways DAO is significantly different from KOTOR, NWN, Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate 2, Baldur's Gate 1... - all BioWare games that came before it.

And again your missing the fact that the differences in DA:O improve the storytelling of the game, and the player interaction.  DA:2 made changes to appeal to a wider audience (Laidlaw's own words), not to improve the storytelling or player interaction for it's own sake.  Given that, I tend to agree with The Corporate.

[Alex109222]

Forsakerr wrote...

Alex109222 wrote...

Insom wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Well New Vegas sold 5 million copies already. It has a ton more depth than DA2 that's for sure.

New Vegas was awesome. Has alot of heart when Obsidian is behind it. And there is no company like EA brething down it's neck to appeal to the larger audiance, what Obsidian did was appeal to the olf Fallout and Fallout 2 audiance, and it worked, lots are calling it Fallout 3: New Vegas.

i own F:NV , not saying it's a bad game but i had pre ordered it and got the CE even bought the CE strategy guide but with all the bugs it had that was game breaking their first patches did not make things better so i stopped playing before even completing the game once.I mean i could have finished the game anyways but the random CTDs where i lost hours of game play because the save were either corrupt or i had forgot to save since a while and companions quests breaking up or other bugs i gave up.  
 
Got the SE for DA2,CE strategy guide this game has less bugs but i did not even complete the game either, so comparing the two one was too bugged so i could complete the game  and the other has no game breaking bugs and i did not complete it too, sad if you ask me 

Everyone else is experianceing bugs on that game exept for me, I have had a few freezes and bad quests but that's it, odd. But I know the bugs are there, seen it happen to my friend. The last few bugs did make a few compainion and major side quest function though.

[Rawgrim]

Alex109222 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Dont forget the Witcher 2!

the Witcher 2 will sell alot less than Skyrim. Its a PC only game, after all.

True, it appeals to a specific audiance who will continue to buy their games, steady money flow if you ask me. CD Projeckt are the Demon Souls playing polak RPG developers that hardcore RPG players LOVE

If you like The Witcher games, you might also like Drakensang actually. Its a german rpg.

[Alex109222]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

I hope he's still the Lead Designer for DA3. This guy knows what he's doing, imo.

No... No, no, no, no. No...

[Noir201]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He's talking about creative stagnation, guys. If you make the same game over and over again only the same people will buy it. This isn't anything new from Bioware, I can't think of a single game they've made that wasn't significantly different in a number of ways from its predecessor. Each time some fans jumped ship, and others jumped on. That approach is what got them where they are, not making (insert game here that is your personal favorite). It's one thing to say they made the wrong calls, but it's something else entirely to say that that they shouldn't make them and just keep putting out the same game - which is all Mike Laidlaw says they aren't going to do. Other games, like Madden from EA Sports for example are pretty much the same game year in and year out, and they're criticized for that.

It seems in this industry you're damned for taking risks and damned for not taking them. I think all he's saying is he'd rather be damned for taking them. I can respect that. Doesn't mean I'm going to like every change made, or they'll always hit the mark, but it's not some grand conspiracy or personal attack on vague veteran/hardcore/loyal fans.

Note that I say nothing about the relative quality of DA2 in this post. Only that I think that this thread misrepresents his position.

In some way i agree with this, however, Dragon Age 2 wasn't a creative game regradless how you look at it. I'm all for ways to make the RPG's creative, now lets look at say Deux Ex 3, or Skyrim. From the looks of them both are offering what people want, while at the sametime improving aspects which didn't work in past games i'e Invisiable War and Oblivion. Both are not going to be that creative except in key aspects.

What does one guess will be come the end of the year, the best selling games? Skyrim, Deux Ex 3 and Mass Effect 3. None will be a RPG revolution in the sence that it's reinventing the wheel, but i bet all three will still be amazing games. Dragon Age 2 was done like it was because of budget, time and push since two other Bioware game don't come out till 4Q of the year. Dragon Age : Origins had years to be crafted and made and sold very well.

If Bioware want to do something creative with rpg's it takes longer then 14 months, and is EA and stockholders willing to let Bioware be creative while allowing them all the time in the world?

[enrogae]

Morroian wrote...

enrogae wrote...

The thing is that all of the "changes" they've made in the past have had one core principle behind them... one question Bioware has asked when they made the changes.  "What can we do to tell the story better and make it a more personal, and enjoyable, experience."  I can't imagine they asked that with DA:2, because they didn't tell the story better nor make it a more personal, and enjoyable, experience.  

Mileage varies, I think they did exactly that.

I respect your opinion, and obviously if the majority agrees with you... then Bioware did well and should continue.  For my own wants... I hope the majority disagrees with you.  

[AkiKishi]

How many times has Dynasty Warriors repeated the same formula ? Yet look.

3 PS3 Dynasty Warriors 7 262,324
4 PS3 Dragon Age II 163,410

[TJSolo]

Aesieru wrote...

Insom wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Well New Vegas sold 5 million copies already. It has a ton more depth than DA2 that's for sure.

I don't agree, horribly buggy and bland game in my opinion.

Laidlaw and EA want game sales; being buggy and bland is no concern to them otherwise they would not be trying to aim for the Call of Duty gamers. The sort of gamer that is okay with a 6hr campaign and fine with playing the same MP game over and over b/c they know of a really good camping spot.

[Alex109222]

Rawgrim wrote...

Alex109222 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Dont forget the Witcher 2!

the Witcher 2 will sell alot less than Skyrim. Its a PC only game, after all.

True, it appeals to a specific audiance who will continue to buy their games, steady money flow if you ask me. CD Projeckt are the Demon Souls playing polak RPG developers that hardcore RPG players LOVE

If you like The Witcher games, you might also like Drakensang actually. Its a german rpg.

just looked it up, might give it a try if there is a trial or something, mite b cool. Thanks for recommending it.

[Galad22]

Word evolve that he uses bothers me a bit since devolve is much better word for DA2.

[DTKT]

Skyrim will outsell Witcher 2 and DAII.

It has the Oblivion name which was a huge hit on the console. Add Fallout 3 and New Vegas and you have a 5 million right there. Probably more.

[Alex109222]

Galad22 wrote...

Word evolve that he uses bothers me a bit since devolve is much better word for DA2.

Someone on these forums compared it to the human race loosing its spine. The human race being a representaion of RPG's.

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

enrogae wrote...

That is my experience with the game, anyway.

I think that's the key part of your post right there.  You didn't like what they did, so you don't want to think that their reasons for making the changes they made came from the right place.  

But what if they did?

dheer wrote...

Turning solid rpg foundations into more of an action console game could very well cause the "genre death" he goes
on about.

Hence the whole "damned if you do" and "damned if you don't" thing.  A lot of people around here would rather they be damned if they don't, because hey - they've already demonstrated the ability and willingness to make the same kinds of games, why not more.  But I don't know too many creative types who would pursue that approach. 

Blaming an unpopular change on greed or arrogance is a copout, it makes it easy to dismiss changes without thoughtful consideration.  It's even less useful than throwing around labels like a pitching machine.  Not everyone who has issues with DA2 does this, and those who do not have much more interesting things to say about what went wrong and how it could be improved.  

The problem is that DA2 is a sequal.  That tags it with the expectation that while changes will be made, it will at the same time be faithful to the first installment's experiance.  Take the HALO franchise.  Plenty of tweaks and changes in between each game, but each one is also very faithful to the previous installment.

I totally respect the desire to avoid creative stagnation, but I don't think the awnser is to make vast sweeping changes from game to game in a series.

[upsettingshorts]

enrogae wrote...

I allow for the possibility that I am entirely incorrect, but I think that if they did -- it would have shown in the product.  My opinion is that the story wasn't told as well, wasn't as "epic" as the first, and wasn't as enjoyable.

I disagree entirely on the story, in both its content and how it was told.

And I want to go back in time to the meeting that decided epic equals good. 

enrogae wrote...

  How does less dialogue, and less interaction, and less breadth to the story make it better?

Less dialogue overall?  It was a shorter game.  Less dialogue per hour?  Seemed the same to me.  Interaction was the same - in many ways superior, it was just divided up much differently - in ways that could have been better, especially in Act 1.  Narrowing the story made it better because it allowed things to connect in ways DAO accomplished only a small handful of times (minor things like Dagna going to the Circle, and the very rare major things like Connor and the Mages).  The hubs in DAO in general had nothing to do with each other.

enrogae wrote...

How does less-meaningful choces make it more personal?

Lets just say I think we have very different conceptions of what makes a choice in a cRPG meaningful.  The short version is I don't think getting a different epilogue card is terribly meaningful.

enrogae wrote...

  How does recycled maps make it more enjoyable?

It doesn't.

enrogae wrote...

I just don't see how they could be trying to do what I said and end up with this.  I am not trying to rationalize my opinion, because I think my opinion is rationalized with logic in-and-of itself.

Same as ever, you don't value the positive aspects of what they did, so you either discount them, didn't appreciate them, or can't imagine others doing so.  That's not an insult, I can't play plenty of games for the same reasons, and don't value every feature in every game I'm sure you and others like.  It's just a matter of preferences and why we play these games.  

TJSolo wrote...

I can't respect it because it seems to be a complete 180 from their intents pre-EA buyout.

Point me towards the Bioware sequel that wasn't changed significantly from its predecessor.  I don't expect an answer because there isn't one.  

enrogae wrote...

And again your missing the fact that the differences in DA:O improve the storytelling of the game, and the player
interaction.  DA:2 made changes to appeal to a wider audience (Laidlaw's own words), not to improve the storytelling or player interaction for it's own sake.  Given that, I tend to agree with The Corporate.

They improved the storytelling in a way that will appeal to a wider audience.  They are not contradictory positions.  Also it's not a "fact" it's your interpretation.  Just as this is mine.

For what it's worth I think DAO's story and storytelling were the worst of any Bioware game I've played aside from vanilla NWN.  Which is to say I thought it was pretty good but mostly forgettable, especially because I hate the faceless monster villain and beat-the-big-bad-at-the-end narratives.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 mars 2011 - 08:08 .

[Blooddrunk1004]

Oh great whats next?
Is DA III gono be hackn slash or Mass Effect 3 striped out of all RPG elements and focusing more on FPS and recylcle all areas like DA II did?
Geez, everytime i hear someone saying experiment, involve, change or etc... makes me want to think why i have faith in Bioware.

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 20 mars 2011 - 08:07 .

[MonkeyLungs]

Aesieru wrote...

Insom wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It will be interesting to see how many copies Skyrim sells. Should be a good indicator on how big the rpg market actually is.

Well New Vegas sold 5 million copies already. It has a ton more depth than DA2 that's for sure.

I don't agree, horribly buggy and bland game in my opinion.

Game was patched, no issues in 2 playthroughs for me. Not bland at all. Actual diverging pathways to take when choosing sides, great quests, and a very interesting and Fallout'y' experience.

[Thalorin1919]

Alex109222 wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

I hope he's still the Lead Designer for DA3. This guy knows what he's doing, imo.

No... No, no, no, no. No...

Look, you either like the game or not.

If you don't, I suggest you go and find a new RPG.

Oh wait! You comment on how you like The Witcher and stuff, what a surprise!

What are you doing here?