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[cglasgow]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

There's also no proof that Malcolm was a believer in Adrastism. If he were he wouldn't be an apostate now would he? he would have stayed in the circle.

In one timeline, his only mage child ends up a Circle loyalist... she believes in the end that the Circle was the proper place for her, and this is despite having known 18 years of freedom as opposed to being dragged into it as a small child.   (Not to mention that the only Circle she knew was the Kirkwall Circle, the worst one of them all; the Ferelden Circle was Club Med compared to that place).

And in the other timeline, his only non-mage child ends up a templar.

That doesn't sound like a family where Andraste's name got cursed out a lot while they were growing up, now does it.

PS: Fenris' testimony is backed up by Feynriel, as they point out.   And the reason Fenris fought to become Danarius' bodyguard is because he wanted to get the rest of his family out of slavery.

Modifié par cglasgow, 20 mars 2011 - 10:38 .

[SDNcN]

cglasgow wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

There's also no proof that Malcolm was a believer in Adrastism. If he were he wouldn't be an apostate now would he? he would have stayed in the circle.

In one timeline, his only mage child ends up a Circle loyalist... she believes in the end that the Circle was the proper place for her, and this is despite having known 18 years of freedom as opposed to being dragged into it as a small child. 

And in the other timeline, his only non-mage child ends up a templar.

That doesn't sound like a family where Andraste's name got cursed out a lot while they were growing up, now does it.

That and Anders shows that one can be an Apostate and still believe in Andraste.

[WhiteKnyght]

cglasgow wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

There's also no proof that Malcolm was a believer in Adrastism. If he were he wouldn't be an apostate now would he? he would have stayed in the circle.

In one timeline, his only mage child ends up a Circle loyalist... she believes in the end that the Circle was the proper place for her, and this is despite having known 18 years of freedom as opposed to being dragged into it as a small child.   (Not to mention that the only Circle she knew was the Kirkwall Circle, the worst one of them all; the Ferelden Circle was Club Med compared to that place).

And in the other timeline, his only non-mage child ends up a templar.

That doesn't sound like a family where Andraste's name got cursed out a lot while they were growing up, now does it.

Well Leandra was apparently a believer to a degree. So Malcolm could have just kept his mouth shut to avoid pissing her off.(My dad does that with my mom. Keeps his opinions mostly to himself to avoid fighting)

Also Bethany was a coward and Carver a ******. And both of them find being in the Grey to be more gratifying don't they?

[cglasgow]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also Bethany was a coward and Carver a ******.

Well, I'll agree with you on Carver, but you're completely out of your tree as regards Bethany.

[WhiteKnyght]

cglasgow wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also Bethany was a coward and Carver a ******.

Well, I'll agree with you on Carver, but you're completely out of your tree as regards Bethany.

Bethany feared the Templars and offered no resistence when caught. And she went along with the Circle to avoid being made tranquil, which was what she admittedly feared the most.. 

[StarcloudSWG]

I think it's clear that Malcolm did believe in the Chant of Light and in Andraste's words. Just not in the system of Circles and Templars as they currently stand. Bethany may not be openly religious, but things she says at several points clearly indicate she respects and accepts the Chant.

Tevinter is not a fun place to be, apparently. It seems to be a magocracy where the laws benefit the most powerful mages and where said mages are effectively above the law. It would be hard to have a "normal" life there with magic in the family.

[Lithuasil]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also Bethany was a coward and Carver a ******.

Well, I'll agree with you on Carver, but you're completely out of your tree as regards Bethany.

Bethany feared the Templars and offered no resistence when caught. And she went along with the Circle to avoid being made tranquil, which was what she admittedly feared the most.. 

Fearing the templars doesn't make you a coward though, especially not with her family history of running from them their whole life.

[cglasgow]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Bethany feared the Templars

As does any apostate mage who isn't a complete lunatic.

and offered no resistence when caught.

To keep her family from getting it in the neck.  What do you think would have happened if you left the Knight-Captain of the local templar barracks facedown on Gamlen's living room floor?  The family (including Gamlen this time!) would have to pack up and flee Kirkwall.  All this on the same day that you finally finished earning the money to buy your mother back their ancestral estate.   As Bethany only says explicitly, once the templars already know her family name and where she lives, there's no point in just killing the first batch; that narrows the options to 'leave the city' or 'try to solo the entire templar barracks'.

Bethany tells you flat-out during act 1 that she's tired of running from the templars because it keeps making her family lose everything.  She's all guilty about how much all of her non-mage relatives have given up to keep her safe.

And so when push finally comes to shove, she actually puts her actions where her mouth was, and tells her family 'I'm through with your lives being ruined because you keep having to abandon all that you've worked for, again and again, just to save me again and again.  It ends here'.

To call that 'cowardice' is totally wrongheaded.

Modifié par cglasgow, 20 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[WhiteKnyght]

cglasgow wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Bethany feared the Templars

As does any apostate mage who isn't a complete lunatic.

and offered no resistence when caught.

To keep her family from getting it in the neck.  What do you think would have happened if you left the Knight-Captain of the local templar barracks facedown on Gamlen's living room floor?  The family (including Gamlen this time!) would have to pack up and flee Kirkwall.  All this on the same day that you finally finished earning the money to buy your mother back their ancestral estate.   As Bethany only says explicitly, once the templars already know her family name and where she lives, there's no point in just killing the first batch; that narrows the options to 'leave the city' or 'try to solo the entire templar barracks'.

Bethany tells you flat-out during act 1 that she's tired of running from the templars because it keeps making her family lose everything.  She's all guilty about how much all of her non-mage relatives have given up to keep her safe.

And so when push finally comes to shove, she actually puts her actions where her mouth was, and tells her family 'I'm through with your lives being ruined because you keep having to abandon all that you've worked for just to save me again and again.  It ends here'.

To call that 'cowardice' is totally wrongheaded.

Okay maybe coward was the wrong word.(Well Morrigan certainly wouldn't think so) But fearful is a correct word.

[Hrodric]

Fear does not make one a coward; the actions that one takes subsequent to fear does.

Being outnumbered, outgunned, cornered, and caught didn't make a coward out of Bethany. She lived to fight another day.

[cglasgow]

Really, given all the horrible things you heard about what happens to mages in the Kirkwall Circle, you are seriously hardcore if given a choice between 'save my ass but screw my family over' and 'save my family and go to the Circle', and you pick the Circle. For all Bethany knew going in, she'd be Tranquil on the spot; she went anyway, so that her sibling and her mother could stay and enjoy the better life they'd fought for.

Coward? She's one of the bravest of us.

Modifié par cglasgow, 20 mars 2011 - 11:01 .

[Lithuasil]

cglasgow wrote...

Really, given all the horrible things you heard about what happens to mages in the Kirkwall Circle, you are seriously hardcore if given a choice between 'save my ass but screw my family over' and 'save my family and go to the Circle', and you pick the Circle. For all Bethany knew going in, she'd be Tranquil on the spot; she went anyway, so that her sibling and her mother could stay and enjoy the better life they'd fought for.

Coward? She's one of the bravest of us.

That being said, I wouldn't have minded fighting our way out, and going somewhere else, especially with the considerable fortune from the deep roads expedition at hand. (Even if I hadn't at this point desperately been waiting for a chance to kill Cullens stupid ass)

[WhiteKnyght]

cglasgow wrote...

Really, given all the horrible things you heard about what happens to mages in the Kirkwall Circle, you are seriously hardcore if given a choice between 'save my ass but screw my family over' and 'save my family and go to the Circle', and you pick the Circle. For all Bethany knew going in, she'd be Tranquil on the spot; she went anyway, so that her sibling and her mother could stay and enjoy the better life they'd fought for.

Coward? She's one of the bravest of us.

I said in a previous post that I used the wrong word.

Also Leandra was stupid for suggesting going to Kirkwall anyway. They should have left the moment they found out they had no estate/wealth to come home to. Bethany and Carver never get to enjoy the wealth Hawke attains and their mother ends up being a female Frankenstein.

[Vandicus]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Really, given all the horrible things you heard about what happens to mages in the Kirkwall Circle, you are seriously hardcore if given a choice between 'save my ass but screw my family over' and 'save my family and go to the Circle', and you pick the Circle. For all Bethany knew going in, she'd be Tranquil on the spot; she went anyway, so that her sibling and her mother could stay and enjoy the better life they'd fought for.

Coward? She's one of the bravest of us.

I said in a previous post that I used the wrong word.

Also Leandra was stupid for suggesting going to Kirkwall anyway. They should have left the moment they found out they had no estate/wealth to come home to. Bethany and Carver never get to enjoy the wealth Hawke attains and their mother ends up being a female Frankenstein.

But that would be metagaming. Leandra is clearly a roleplayer.

[cglasgow]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also Leandra was stupid for suggesting going to Kirkwall anyway. They should have left the moment they found out they had no estate/wealth to come home to.

Boat rides ain't free, bro.  They were flat broke when they got to Kirkwall; no money for another ship ride means 'they stuck in Kirkwall'.

And, of course, by the time they've built up a stake, Bartrand's expedition has come along and they know they have a legitimate shot at the investment opportunity of a lifetime...

[Lithuasil]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I said in a previous post that I used the wrong word.

Also Leandra was stupid for suggesting going to Kirkwall anyway. They should have left the moment they found out they had no estate/wealth to come home to. Bethany and Carver never get to enjoy the wealth Hawke attains and their mother ends up being a female Frankenstein.

Where would they have gone? They escaped lothering with barely anything but their cloth, and probably used their remaining fortune to afford the passage. Kirkwall won't be the only place swarming with Ferelden refugees, so it's either "Stay with the uncle, live in a small house and barely be able to afford food" or "Go somewhere we don't know, without having a roof above our heads, or a penny in our purse".

[Corwyn]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Really, given all the horrible things you heard about what happens to mages in the Kirkwall Circle, you are seriously hardcore if given a choice between 'save my ass but screw my family over' and 'save my family and go to the Circle', and you pick the Circle. For all Bethany knew going in, she'd be Tranquil on the spot; she went anyway, so that her sibling and her mother could stay and enjoy the better life they'd fought for.

Coward? She's one of the bravest of us.

I said in a previous post that I used the wrong word.

Also Leandra was stupid for suggesting going to Kirkwall anyway. They should have left the moment they found out they had no estate/wealth to come home to. Bethany and Carver never get to enjoy the wealth Hawke attains and their mother ends up being a female Frankenstein.

Where else would they have gone though?  They may not have had wealth but they did have a family and a place to stay but it's not like they had someplace better to go were they would have wealth.  They were refugees they clearly had used whatever money they had to get to Kirkwall where else should they have gone?  I don't think you appreciate how hard it would be to get up and move.  Plus they didn't know then everything that would happen like the mother getting killed.

[WhiteKnyght]

Lithuasil wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I said in a previous post that I used the wrong word.

Also Leandra was stupid for suggesting going to Kirkwall anyway. They should have left the moment they found out they had no estate/wealth to come home to. Bethany and Carver never get to enjoy the wealth Hawke attains and their mother ends up being a female Frankenstein.

Where would they have gone? They escaped lothering with barely anything but their cloth, and probably used their remaining fortune to afford the passage. Kirkwall won't be the only place swarming with Ferelden refugees, so it's either "Stay with the uncle, live in a small house and barely be able to afford food" or "Go somewhere we don't know, without having a roof above our heads, or a penny in our purse".

It's not the only city/town in the Marches and the others aren't Templar Central

[Lithuasil]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


It's not the only city/town in the Marches and the others aren't Templar Central

The next city in the free marches is, from what the map I have tells me, further away from Kirkwall, then Kirkwall is from lothering. And how exactly would they get there, without any money or supplies? Cross the mountains on foot and eat rocks?

[LobselVith8]

cglasgow wrote...

In one timeline, his only mage child ends up a Circle loyalist... she believes in the end that the Circle was the proper place for her, and this is despite having known 18 years of freedom as opposed to being dragged into it as a small child.   (Not to mention that the only Circle she knew was the Kirkwall Circle, the worst one of them all; the Ferelden Circle was Club Med compared to that place).

What Bethany says at the end is, "All these years, I've tried to understand what Andraste saw. Why she had to lock us up. But my powers come from the Maker... and I just cannot believe that is His will." When you ask her about the Circle, she admits she thought it was hard growing up outside the Circle, but she "never knew how free I was. Maybe it took being locked in the Gallows to understand my place in this world. To see the need to free my fellow mages."

[WhiteKnyght]

Lithuasil wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


It's not the only city/town in the Marches and the others aren't Templar Central

The next city in the free marches is, from what the map I have tells me, further away from Kirkwall, then Kirkwall is from lothering. And how exactly would they get there, without any money or supplies? Cross the mountains on foot and eat rocks?

Doesn't have to be a city. They said in one quest that Kirkwall has a lot of farmland, so they could find a place to stay on one of those farms like Hawke and Bethany told a kid to do with his sisters.

[Lithuasil]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Doesn't have to be a city. They said in one quest that Kirkwall has a lot of farmland, so they could find a place to stay on one of those farms like Hawke and Bethany told a kid to do with his sisters.

The free marches have a lot of farmland. That's on the other side of the mountains. And with the whole marches being swarmed by refugees - staying with Gamlen, in a place where they have a roof, food, and at least for a year have protection, food and shelter covered with the job he gets them, is a lot better then going somewhere else - Darktown is full of Ferelden refugees that went somewhere they don't have family, and don't know anyone. I'd argue, living in a sewer and begging is worse then risking being locked up (with as it is, life in the gallows being preferable to life in darktown imho)

[naledgeborn]

Because "Dog Land" is the birthplace of badasses.

Andraste, Maferath, Flemeth, Calenhad, Moira, Maric, Loghain, Rowan, Duncan, Morrigan, Alistair, (Human Noble, Magi) The Warden, the list keeps going, It's only natural that Hawke would be from there too

[WhiteKnyght]

Lithuasil wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Doesn't have to be a city. They said in one quest that Kirkwall has a lot of farmland, so they could find a place to stay on one of those farms like Hawke and Bethany told a kid to do with his sisters.

The free marches have a lot of farmland. That's on the other side of the mountains. And with the whole marches being swarmed by refugees - staying with Gamlen, in a place where they have a roof, food, and at least for a year have protection, food and shelter covered with the job he gets them, is a lot better then going somewhere else - Darktown is full of Ferelden refugees that went somewhere they don't have family, and don't know anyone. I'd argue, living in a sewer and begging is worse then risking being locked up (with as it is, life in the gallows being preferable to life in darktown imho)

They don't have to stay in Kirkwall. When you get there the option of going further in to other cities is mentioned. Kirkwall isn't the only option just because Gamlen let's you stay in his slum house while he pisses and moans about you and actually demands rent at one point after he embezzled Leandra's inheritance and spent it all on booze, hookers, and gambling.

It would have been worth the trouble going to another town or crossing those mountains just to avoid the Templars, Qunari, Quentin, and the nutty people in charge of things there.